General

@ketchup11 Wow I didn't even realize until just now, when I looked at the SP descriptions, that Pinpoint Pierce is basically the same as Bullseye.
There doesn't appear to be an animation for Storm Bringer hits at all so I have no idea how to distinguish it from Sky Song or Trifling Whim. I'd love to get access to KMST so I could individually test out the skills...

I've seen the thread before and it's nothing but speculation about TB. No one actually tested it (that I saw).

You're right... I forgot PDR became multiplicative. I'll fix it.

@bluebomber24 I think we can safely assume that every CK will be getting this skill making them all OP, but yes. This is the first time an Archer has been released OP no matter what it's level of funding.

[quote=airforce1]Your math is way off. Hilla has 50% def while Zak has a 40% def. Assuming the WA only has 45% PDR from skills (Emerald Dust + Albatross Maximum + Sky Song hyper), then he should do 4.5% (22.5% mob def vs 18%) less damage at Hilla if he ignores the 50% physical resist and had the same range.

Elemental reset cancels all 50% of the physical resist. If he ignored it, the WA would only do 4.5% less damage on Hilla than Zak assuming they had the same range.

The WA at Zak actually has a range on 33453. He's also using a green buff that I don't recognize... but I don't think it changes anything.

OK did the Math myself:
WA at zak has a range of 32313 and hits about 110k max with Sky Song
WA at Hilla has a range of 24005 and hits about 75k max with Sky Song
110/75 = 1.46

WA (zak) has an effective range of 27431 after def
WA (Hilla) has an effective range of 18603 after def
27431/18603 = 1.475

[b]I think we can safely say WA is NOT affected by Physical Resist making it even more OP than I had previously imagined.[/b][/quote]

......I think this is the first time that Nexon released an Archer class that practically dominated every other class. Does WA beat KMS AB pre-nerf, I can't find those numbers.

@PotatoCat:
Just because it exists doesn't mean it does something/is useful

Well, considering that wind isn't an element, and how none of the WA's attacks are elemental, I'd imagine that the sole purpose of Elemental Reset is to bypass the damage reductions that recent bosses have. Nexon clearly wants people to spend Nx on what would otherwise be level 24-30 Blessing mules.

But I'm okay with that, since I get to re-use my dex and re-play my old main while I wait for a Mercedes revamp.

@airforce1:
wow, did not see that coming at all. opopop-
looking at the videos, I didn't see the WA at zakum use pinpoint pierce which happens to be a green debuff on the monster if that matters, since it's 20% extra damage.
and small thing, it doesn't look like there's a way to tell sky song hits apart from storm bringer, which wouldn't be affected by the 20% pdr hyper.

also, folks over at [url=http://www.southperry.net/showthread.php?t=63322&page=4]sp[/url] seemed to suggest that TB's elemental reset only resets the thunder element and things. and I suppose nobody knows if hilla's pdr/physical resist was changed any after unlimited? that might possible make a difference

edit#3: you are taking into account that pdr stacks multiplicatively, right? I don't understand your % pdr numbers at the top~

However, WA have pretty low HP, so it might be harder to survive minions at Empress or Von Leon,
compared to Luminous, who has high HP, MP, healing and dispel moves, shadow shell, and can hit 16 times per second with a high %damage skill.

[quote=CaptCandy]
This means his damage was reduced by 26% at Hilla compared to Zakum.

Also, in the Hilla video, his Wind Pierce thing does 70-80k Damage per line on the mobs and 50-60k on Hilla, suggesting either:

A) Hilla doesn't have 50% Physical Resist.
B) Elemental Harmony bypasses Physical Resist.[/quote]

Your math is way off. Hilla has 50% def while Zak has a 40% def. Assuming the WA only has 10+15+20% PDR from skills (Emerald Dust + Albatross Maximum + Sky Song hyper), then he should do 6.12% (24.48% mob def vs 30.6%) less damage at Hilla if he ignores the 50% physical resist and had the same range.

Elemental reset cancels all 50% of the physical resist. If he ignored it, the WA would only do 4.5% less damage on Hilla than Zak assuming they had the same range.

The WA at Zak actually has a range on 33453. He's also using a green buff that I don't recognize... but I don't think it changes anything.

OK did the Math myself:
WA at zak has a range of 32313 and hits about 110k max with Sky Song
WA at Hilla has a range of 24005 and hits about 75k max with Sky Song
110/75 = 1.46

EDIT: Fixed PDR since I forgot it was multiplicative. That fixes the previous slight error.
Zak has an effective def of 24.48%
Effective range of 24402
Hilla has an effective def of 30.6%
Effective range of 16659
24402/16659 = 1.46

[b]I think we can safely say WA is NOT affected by Physical Resist making it even more OP than I had previously imagined.[/b]

Wait i didn't see transformation on that new list. Did nexon get rid of it? My WA is so ugly without it.

[quote=airforce1]I don't think anyone has definitively tested in KMST yet (anyone seen a Hilla video?), but I suspect it functions like Pally elemental reset and does not ignore physical resist. Of course, this doesn't make much sense since Wind isn't an element with strengths/weaknesses to begin with...[/quote]

Actually, someone did. This page has a video of a zak run and a hilla run:
[url]http://www.basilmarket.com/forum/2598494/4#comments_list[/url]

If you look closely,
on the Zak run, his range was 244xx-30513,
and at Hilla, his range was 18xxx-225xx.

This means his range was around 1.35 times higher at Zakum than Hilla.

In the Hilla run, the lowest damage from one of the arrows was 33k, and the highest damage was 72k.
In the Zak run, the lowest damage from one of the arrows was 60k, and the highest damage was 132k.

Had his range at Hilla been the same as at Zakum, then the damage would have been between 45k and 97k.

This means his damage was reduced by 26% at Hilla compared to Zakum.

Also, in the Hilla video, his Wind Pierce thing does 70-80k Damage per line on the mobs and 50-60k on Hilla, suggesting either:

A) Hilla doesn't have 50% Physical Resist.
B) Elemental Harmony bypasses Physical Resist.

[quote=ketchup11]@Raskler:
I could be mistaken, but I don't believe it resets physical.[/quote]

I don't think anyone has definitively tested in KMST yet (anyone seen a Hilla video?), but I suspect it functions like Pally elemental reset and does not ignore physical resist. Of course, this doesn't make much sense since Wind isn't an element with strengths/weaknesses to begin with...

@Raskler:
I could be mistaken, but I don't believe it resets physical.

I'm so looking forward to the new revamp for my WA. Even when they get nerfed heavily, I think I would still love to play it because the skills look so fun to use. Best wishes to the archers, snipers, and all other adventurers for when your revamp comes.

[quote=Improvement]@Chris949: The big deal is Elemental Reset. It allows Archmage and Evan classes to bypass the reduction on their element in addition to the physical resistance, putting them at their true DPS on the bosses in question whereas every other class has to deal with a 50% reduction.[/quote]

Hmmm most people don't care even around here or you'd see a bazillion threads about it. Noone even wants to argue about it. Its just a non-issue. Let them have these immunities. Jeez.

@Chris949: The big deal is Elemental Reset. It allows Archmage and Evan classes to bypass the reduction on their element in addition to the physical resistance, putting them at their true DPS on the bosses in question whereas every other class has to deal with a 50% reduction.

[quote=Improvement]@Chris949: Yes, but that doesn't prevent them from receiving the physical reduction. Paladins are immune to elemental resistance as well, but their damage is still reduced because of the physical resistance.[/quote]

At the same time all mages are immune to physical resistance. So whats the big deal?

@Improvement: You're right!

@Chris949: Yes, but that doesn't prevent them from receiving the physical reduction. Paladins are immune to elemental resistance as well, but their damage is still reduced because of the physical resistance.

[quote=Improvement]Just gonna nitpick on this little prediction. I doubt that Blaze Wizards will be the weakest simply because of their ability to get around bosses damage reduction. Currently, Archmages and Evan are unique in this ability because of their elemental reset; it allows them to bypass the 50% damage reduction all physical classes and some mage classes(BaM's, Bishops) have when facing certain bosses like Empress and Magnus. Blaze Wizard already possesses this skill, and even if it gets removed the elemental mastery beginner skill is still existent. I don't know what other toys they'll get to help them out at bossing, if they get any at all, but I'm fairly sure that if only because of this they shan't be the weakest.[/quote]

But all revamped Knights get Elemental Reset as a beginner skill. No advantage their anymore.

As I said on another thread on this forum.. those who truly love their class will stand by it. If I was a bowmaster this WA revamp wouldn't make me want to switch to the stronger class even if you try convincing me. I know a few people in my server who will stick to their current class no matter how strong or weak they will be come hyper skill and whatever revamps are introduced... it's just the sense of pride you get when you've played the same character for a countless number of hours and growing up with it. Will I continue my WA? Of course, but only to try a class in which I am relatively familiar with. Wind Archer will never replace Florange & Flomato.

If anything BM's should be proud that the concept of a skill like hurricane originated from yourselves and seeing it evolve. I dare you to look at your class and call it inferior. You probably shouldn't be playing BM if you just did.

[quote=AllDayErryDay]@askmiller: I think the weakest, if any, would be the Blaze Wizard. Night-Walker has a lot of potential, as well as Dawn Warrior.
[/quote]

Just gonna nitpick on this little prediction. I doubt that Blaze Wizards will be the weakest simply because of their ability to get around bosses damage reduction. Currently, Archmages and Evan are unique in this ability because of their elemental reset; it allows them to bypass the 50% damage reduction all physical classes and some mage classes(BaM's, Bishops) have when facing certain bosses like Empress and Magnus. Blaze Wizard already possesses this skill, and even if it gets removed the elemental mastery beginner skill is still existent. I don't know what other toys they'll get to help them out at bossing, if they get any at all, but I'm fairly sure that if only because of this they shan't be the weakest.

By time they do a revamp for adventurers noone will be playing them anymore. Only reason I will be capping my MM to 250 is because I wanna be one of the first MM to hit 250 or else I'd quit my MM and main my WA.

@lDaze: By the time they're done with the Cygnus Knights patch, it'll be like... mid March or early April. By that time, I'd say if the community in KMS complains about it enough, the Adventurer branch will be renewed in [i]some[/i] way.

@bluebomber24: Not at all. Even in the worst scenario of nerfs, I think they'll have the upper hand. I'm not resigning myself to any specific belief of them being OP or like 5x better than Bow Masters. I'm simply saying, the way it looks like is, they want the class to really benefit from tons of Final Attack-ish damage. As it stands I think it's easy to see that they're better. In the future? Probably going to be toned down, but still respectably stronger than Bow Masters. It's not stretched.

Maybe the adventurer revamp thing is, but that's just me looking at post-bb Jump/ hella revamp times.

@AllDayErryDay: Your making strectched asumptions.

Now I have even less reason to both picking up a BM. Not that I ever planned to anyway. Go WA!

[quote=AllDayErryDay]@bluebomber24: It's not like there won't ever be players choosing to play Bow Masters, I'm just saying there will be less of a reason to if your interests lie with damage. And I'm aware, I've been around since before Cygnus Knights were released. The thing about WH and Mercedes though, is that they were actually too similar to Bow Masters. What I mean is... they didn't have any systems in place to make them [i]that[/i] much stronger than Bow Masters. And in Mercedes' case, they might have even ended up weaker in the end. Wind Archers actually have some pretty impressive things that do make them much better though. We'll see how it plays out in any case, but I've got my cards on Wind Archers, though I think it's time for an adventurer revamp.[/quote]

Personally I doubt there will be an adventurer revamp anytime soon since in kms they just finish getting their hypers awhile ago. If anything, they should buff hero class.

@bluebomber24: It's not like there won't ever be players choosing to play Bow Masters, I'm just saying there will be less of a reason to if your interests lie with damage. And I'm aware, I've been around since before Cygnus Knights were released. The thing about WH and Mercedes though, is that they were actually too similar to Bow Masters. What I mean is... they didn't have any systems in place to make them [i]that[/i] much stronger than Bow Masters. And in Mercedes' case, they might have even ended up weaker in the end. Wind Archers actually have some pretty impressive things that do make them much better though. We'll see how it plays out in any case, but I've got my cards on Wind Archers, though I think it's time for an adventurer revamp.

Actually, Trifling Wind III activates at a 60% chance after hypers and does 255% damage per hit.

And you forgot elemental expert.

@AllDayErryDay:

.....I am telling you right now, when WH/Mercs were released those EXACT same statements were made, "why play a BM" and yet I can easily get a SS of multiple BMs whenever I log in. Both of those classes had an upper hand against a BM upon release, then Nerfs [b]and[/b] Revamps came. Once Hypers hit GMS, the Archer Branch as a whole will be pretty balanced (please don't bring up no cooldown snipe because I don't feel like arguing why that is moot "overall" for the 1000th time).

@bluebomber24: Which is exactly my point. The core idea of this class really lies within "Trifling Whimsy", but no matter what they do to nerf it, it's still going to be a force to be reckoned with.

I already said I think they'll be revamping some of the adventurer classes, just because of something like this anyway, so I'm not going to jump the gun and say Bowmasters are screwed forever here. I'm simply saying... once they release this class, there will be little to no incentive to play Bowmasters. Given the fact that they're such a simple class, and Wind Archers are very similar in that aspect, there's no point in playing the weaker out of the two. And once again, no matter how they nerf Wind Archers, for now... they have the immediate upper hand against Bowmasters.

I watched a stream of the revamped wind breakers and it was wow o.o

Trifling Whim+ their version of hurricane that hit up to 4 monsters = arrows flying out of everywhere :o
they have a pierce kinda skill too!

[quote=AllDayErryDay]@askmiller: I think the weakest, if any, would be the Blaze Wizard. Night-Walker has a lot of potential, as well as Dawn Warrior.

@bluebomber24: I agree that thinking any class is "OP" on release is silly, seeing the fact that they almost always nerf them. It doesn't mean that the nerf will be massive though, similar to Kaiser. It's going to remain strong simply because of it's skill set. The "Trifling Whimsy" things will shoot 3 times for every time it's activated, and I believe it may even be more. The damage on them is higher than hurricane, final attack, and most classes 1v1 skills. The Hyper Skill they receive at level 150 gives them a chance to activate an attack that hits 400% damage, with a 30% chance to proc on every attack, (I'm assuming this includes your little whimsy things as well).

That part of their skill set is what'll make them hard to balance. Even if they make the whimsy things hit only 100% damage, you're looking at (after Unlimited) the possibility of 2+ mil for each one launched (which can be up to 3 or more PER hit of hurricane, when you're shooting like much more than 2 arrows per second). Then, factor in that 400% damage (30% proc chance) hyper every hit of hurricane (it doesn't even have a cooldown). It's going to be a HARD skill set to balance, even with massive nerfs. As it stands now, they hit harder than my Kaiser hits, with every major bossing skill they have, and they can do it hurricane style.[/quote]

I don't see how its hard to nerf. Make it shoot 1 time and reduce its dmg %, problem solved. Same with the Hyper. VERY managable to do. It's not HARD to nerf anything. Its just a matter of how so it doesn't destroy the class.

@askmiller: I think the weakest, if any, would be the Blaze Wizard. Night-Walker has a lot of potential, as well as Dawn Warrior.

@bluebomber24: I agree that thinking any class is "OP" on release is silly, seeing the fact that they almost always nerf them. It doesn't mean that the nerf will be massive though, similar to Kaiser. It's going to remain strong simply because of it's skill set. The "Trifling Whimsy" things will shoot 3 times for every time it's activated, and I believe it may even be more. The damage on them is higher than hurricane, final attack, and most classes 1v1 skills. The Hyper Skill they receive at level 150 gives them a chance to activate an attack that hits 400% damage, with a 30% chance to proc on every attack, (I'm assuming this includes your little whimsy things as well).

That part of their skill set is what'll make them hard to balance. Even if they make the whimsy things hit only 100% damage, you're looking at (after Unlimited) the possibility of 2+ mil for each one launched (which can be up to 3 or more PER hit of hurricane, when you're shooting like much more than 2 arrows per second). Then, factor in that 400% damage (30% proc chance) hyper every hit of hurricane (it doesn't even have a cooldown). It's going to be a HARD skill set to balance, even with massive nerfs. As it stands now, they hit harder than my Kaiser hits, with every major bossing skill they have, and they can do it hurricane style.

You know they have a buff Hyper that gives them a second type of FA attack that can trigger at a 30% rate for 400% damage at any time during it's 200 second duration.

I also think they have much more %damage buffs then you actually listed.

Wish they kept the blue colors.. I don't want another Mercedes flashy as hell character.

Other things to note:
They hit the speed cap but only few skills are actually effected by it, mainly their Monsoon hyper skill.

They have a longer Normal attack range yet most of their skills have a smaller hit box.

What you as a Bow Master should expect :
Higher market for your old bow's and Offhand weapons.
Possibly getting hurricane revamped. Re-thinking of Hyper Skills.
Possibly getting one of these skills if you're a UA or did the Empress Might Quests.

Seriously -_-" are BM are going to start this "OMG we're useless charade", YET again, I swear. WA is a class that is semi-new and Nexon wants to release and clearly will be OP for quite a few months. Like most released classes it probably will get nerfed or the remaining classes will catch up. IF anything you should be saying FINALLY a truly OP Archer I can play with, because IMO we never got one. Even Mercs weren't OP upon their release, slightly better than other Archers due to potential and extra equips, but not OP. But please quit your BMs, I want the population to shrink.

OT:

Crit Rate...I don't see the problem?

All the damage stuff: Yea that shi is OP. But not as much as it appears, so I am actaully expecting a light nerf in the future, unless I am underestimating the activation crap.

At the survival stuff. OP in terms of training, not so much in terms of bossing, considering new bosses are starting to atking at a fix % and overriding avoid,dodge,damage reduction, etc. The only thing 1v1 that makes me >_> is the Status resist, which I suspect I won't care about in the future as the game is stepping closer and closer to where everyone can get 100% stat resist. In KMS currently, a BM would be at 65% and a WA would be at 75% optimally? Not sure how bits, sets, and additional options come into play so I am ignoring any resist that may come from those. I actually don't like them getitng that 1k mdef as it appears the best way to reduce a bosses Fix% damage is via def or mdef (i.e. have it take away 50% HP instead of 70% hp; see Magnus). TBH I find the i-frame potential from wind walk to be OP more than any of the things you listed.

Speed....meh, easy to cap for a BM, IDC. But their vertical mobility....I am Jelly.

The Hypers, I don't see the PDRs as a big deal, it is 3% damage or less under the new system for most ppl with chunks of it. With 150 equipment and etc, I don't see PDR as anything to be enthused about getting. Thier reinforce is just OKish since we have Phoenix, so IDC about that. The Boss damage though......I need to see what this class looks like nerfed... or the total % of thier Hurricane 1v1 with all the activations. IMO that Boss Damage is a really OP hyper, and their aren't alot of OP hypers.

Summary. The class is clearly OP but not AB OP, imo. I can't wait to play and wonder if I should expect nerfs or revamps.

don't worry guys. i'm sure an adventurer revamp is coming soon

Yeah, I was wondering how they could possibly justify doing this with the current bow-users being so... useless.

Gotta say though, since I'm aware of their recent history, they'll likely just revamp other classes to compensate for this. I think they did a splendid job with the re-imagining of Strikers, especially given the fact that they aren't immediately any more powerful than what we're used to. But if they release Wind Archers as-is, it makes me believe they may be planning something big for adventurers.

On a side note... I'm just glowing with anticipation of what they'll do with Night-Walkers (and the rest). Even though Wind Archers are looking extremely powerful, it's so exhilarating to see elemental focused classes. Original Cygnus Knights were lame, and barely did much to focus on any element. It was pretty much just "Demo" versions of real classes, with elements slapped on. Now, they REALLY feel like what their names describe. Wind-Archers are whimsical and leafy green. Thunder-Breakers are brute, powerful, and electric. SO EXCITED.

Yep us bms are pretty much the gone class after this. In all honestly im prob going to bandwagon an make the wind archer my main.