General

Remember that Time Leap maxes at a much lower level than it used to which in my opinion makes the 5 points seem like nothing to me... But yes, It all really depends on playing style. If you care too much for the cooldown and do not find it likely that you will use it often, wait to max it out. If you want to have it around because you like the idea of having a quick reroll or to use on other skills including party members, them put the points in. I personally love TL as one of my most fav skills a bucc has because I personally find it convenient and very useful XD When it comes down to it, it all depends on playing style ! Personal preferences!

Also if all goes well, according the kms patch notes...well, 7 sided dice?

Pretty useful IMO. Max it. I use it pretty often.

[quote=1CrazyCleric]I think [b]informed[/b] is an understatement haha. But you two pretty much covered every aspect of Time Leap that was relevant![/quote]

It's not really an understatement; we never got into the party applications and how they affected certain classes, particularly those with beneficial skills on long cooldowns that increase their, and thus your if partied, exp per hour, particularly if it also happens to be some sort of buff.

Fair enough. I think at this point all that's said has been said, especially considering you're calculating worse case scenarios which are unlikely to consistently happen all the time; nevertheless, hopefully our discussion has informed some players of how Time Leap, at this level, is the best option. Anyways, at least we can both agree on one thing: Time Leap, at this point, is the best option for the vast majority of players.

[quote=Tricks122]Fair enough, but from a statistical point, Time Leap is the best option at that point, and the other arguments just don't make sense. Maple Warrior would only be useful in lower level parties or solo, while all the other skills don't add any sort of meaningful aspects due to limited use. When you calculate it as a new roll, you're not taking into account that you don't always need to re-roll with Time Leap, while also ignoring that a new roll would happen on a botched roll, so it's a new opportunity, not an overall increase in probability because it's assumed that when you use Time Leap, the roll was botched.[/quote]

I don't disagree with Time Leap being the best option. I'm well aware that I'm not taking it into account in the math because it's far too complicated for me to calculate. Like I said before, I encompassed the worst-case scenario where there's a dice failure immediately upon Time Leap's cooldown and it only serves as a bottom line. From there up, the significance of how substantial a Time Leap is depends completely on how many successful rolls you have thereafter.

[quote=Tricks122]If you want to argue long term benefits for each dice roll, which is what it seems you're doing by giving an overall benefit, then it's just flawed; Time Leap shouldn't be calculated that way since it isn't used that way. What it's used for is a free re-try on a botched roll, and that's significant in the long-term due to how many botched rolls you're going to be getting, even if the benefit is small, simply due to how long training will be and how many opportunities you get to use it.

While eight dice periods need to elapse, you need to factor in exactly what the results of those are going to be; if Time Leap resetting your dice lands your only Six in that set, it's a large boost, and if not, then it's minimal. I suppose at this point we're just picking apart the skill itself.[/quote]

If you feel that it shouldn't be calculated that way, that's fine because it's obvious that not everyone is going to fail the dice after Time Leap's cooldown. If it's not to your liking that it's posed as an average, then that's fine as well. I understand the purpose of Time Leap is a chance to recover from a bad roll but I was only concerned about the [b]likelihood[/b] of a positive roll, not what benefits they yield so the actual results is irrelevant in the Time Leap cooldown. What matters are the rolls that follow after the cooldown, where successes lead to additional rolls until a failure occurs and a Time Leap is used, which becomes more experimental and less theoretical.

[quote=Tricks122]It's debatable, but it's the option that suits most people, particularly for training, at that level; you're not going to get much out of five points of Maple Warrior, especially if other people in your party have it, and the benefit for all other skills is too limited due to when you use them or their position as increasing a timer on a buff.[/quote]

Which I haven't disagreed with fortunately.

This is quiet the entertaining debate XD

Fair enough, but from a statistical point, Time Leap is the best option at that point, and the other arguments just don't make sense. Maple Warrior would only be useful in lower level parties or solo, while all the other skills don't add any sort of meaningful aspects due to limited use. When you calculate it as a new roll, you're not taking into account that you don't always need to re-roll with Time Leap, while also ignoring that a new roll would happen on a botched roll, so it's a new opportunity, not an overall increase in probability because it's assumed that when you use Time Leap, the roll was botched.

If you want to argue long term benefits for each dice roll, which is what it seems you're doing by giving an overall benefit, then it's just flawed; Time Leap shouldn't be calculated that way since it isn't used that way. What it's used for is a free re-try on a botched roll, and that's significant in the long-term due to how many botched rolls you're going to be getting, even if the benefit is small, simply due to how long training will be and how many opportunities you get to use it.

While eight dice periods need to elapse, you need to factor in exactly what the results of those are going to be; if Time Leap resetting your dice lands your only Six in that set, it's a large boost, and if not, then it's minimal. I suppose at this point we're just picking apart the skill itself.

It's debatable, but it's the option that suits most people, particularly for training, at that level; you're not going to get much out of five points of Maple Warrior, especially if other people in your party have it, and the benefit for all other skills is too limited due to when you use them or their position as increasing a timer on a buff.

[quote=Tricks122]That math seems... flawed. Now, I'm no at mathematician, but from the wording it seems like you're adding the increased probability to each dice roll, rather than treating the new roll given by Time Leap as just that: a new roll.[/quote]

Unless I've calculated it incorrectly, I've already factored it in as an independent new roll when I shift 62.5% (no Time Leap) to 85.9% (with Time Leap). Presumably since there are 8 dice rolls within Time Leap's cooldown, the average of the probabilities in Time Leap's cooldown is (.859%+(7*.625))/8 = .65425, which is 2.925% (which I will fix the typo for) higher than 62.5%.

[quote=Tricks122]It also counters one of the previous 'bad rolls'; now, I'm not sure if my math is correct, but Time Leap's boost is significant, and the usefulness isn't really debatable due to the position it is in terms of levels in the build. I mean, unless you solo all the time and somehow Maple Warrior becomes a better choice, but in any respectable party it should be covered by someone else, which renders every point you have in it useless.[/quote]

That's fairly obvious, yes. There are nonetheless differing scenarios no matter how quaint.

[quote=Tricks122]Over large periods of time, it becomes more likely to land bad rolls, which Time Leap can assist in preventing,[/quote]

...when it's not on cooldown that is. After each Time Leap, you're forced to wait (if I'm not mistaken) through several dice periods before being able to reuse it again. However, the more dice rolls you have, the more likely the distribution of rolls will follow the expected probabilities and therefore only provides you with an average increased probability of a useful buff by about 2.925%. Just the fact that about eight dice periods have to elapse before being allowed to re-roll again very much waters down the short term significance.

[quote=Tricks122]while also allowing the bonuses to increase your training time by a large amount; a Six or Five, and to a lesser degree Four, all increase your experience or damage, which leads to faster kills or more experience per kill, which leads to a lot more experience over that period of time. Let's just assume you land a single Six with a re-rolled Time Leap, for simplicity; according to Basil, that's a thirty percent experience gain. Now, let's just assume that you make the most out of those three active minutes; you essentially got a little less than one minute of training time "free" due to the boost. Now, that's significant, especially when you couple it with the chance of double rolls, the ability to turn a single flopped roll into a halfway decent double roll, how large the bonus is when it does land, etc. [/quote]

Kind of self-explanatory and that's great, but I probably should have made better wording and said "Overall [i]probability[/i] boost is not very significant." Your scenario only reiterates the numbers, 62.5% to 85.9% (and the other two pairs), which I had already agreed to being significant since it's short-term. I'm not very interested in debating on how strong of a damage/training boost Time Leap provides.

[quote=Tricks122]Over long periods of time and when spreading out the probability, Time Leap looks less appetizing, but it isn't because it seems like your calculations are incorrect on what Time Leap should actually be used for, and it's not debatable how useful it is at the point the original poster is it, which is when he just has Maple Warrior, Pirate's Rage, Speed Infusion, Dragon Strike and Nautilus Strike as alternatives.[/quote]

True enough, though I was moreso thinking aloud than actually answering for the TS (ah, suspension then?). I have no interest in making a claim that jabbers on about better places to put points in but so long as there exists people to argue, it's still debatable, no matter how feeble of an argument they make. As far as the math goes, it's merely theoretical and encompasses a worst-case scenario basis (Time Leap on the dice roll when the cooldown is complete), which is fairly biased on my end, yes. However, it's only a baseline and it's impossible to make calculations past the cooldown period since extra rolls become dependent on successes. You're correct that I'm not factoring in a "need-use" basis but at the same time, I don't see the average probability increase being significantly large (which of course, differs from person to person) because of the number of dice rolls that appear in Time Leap's large cooldown. Nonetheless, Time Leap is useful in its own ways.

[quote=PlayThatMelody]Single Cast/Added Reroll
62.5% to 85.9% : Targeting at least one desired buff of three choices
44.44% to 69.14% : Targeting at least one desired buff of two choices
23.61% to 41.65% : Targeting one specific desired buff

8.3333 dice rolls per maxed Time Leap cooldown, round down to 8 dice rolls for delays. Average probability increases uniformly distributed over 8 rolls are 2.295%, 3.0875%, and 2.255% respectively.

Conclusion: Overall boost is not very significant over scenarios involving long periods of time. In one-time tosses, there is a large increase in the probability of obtaining a useful buff. Usefulness for five points is of course, still debatable.[/quote]

That math seems... flawed. Now, I'm no at mathematician, but from the wording it seems like you're adding the increased probability to each dice roll, rather than treating the new roll given by Time Leap as just that: a new roll. It also counters one of the previous 'bad rolls'; now, I'm not sure if my math is correct, but Time Leap's boost is significant, and the usefulness isn't really debatable due to the position it is in terms of levels in the build. I mean, unless you solo all the time and somehow Maple Warrior becomes a better choice, but in any respectable party it should be covered by someone else, which renders every point you have in it useless.

Over large periods of time, it becomes more likely to land bad rolls, which Time Leap can assist in preventing, while also allowing the bonuses to increase your training time by a large amount; a Six or Five, and to a lesser degree Four, all increase your experience or damage, which leads to faster kills or more experience per kill, which leads to a lot more experience over that period of time. Let's just assume you land a single Six with a re-rolled Time Leap, for simplicity; according to Basil, that's a thirty percent experience gain.

Now, let's just assume that you make the most out of those three active minutes; you essentially got a little less than one minute of training time "free" due to the boost. Now, that's significant, especially when you couple it with the chance of double rolls, the ability to turn a single flopped roll into a halfway decent double roll, how large the bonus is when it does land, etc. Over long periods of time and when spreading out the probability, Time Leap looks less appetizing, but it isn't because it seems like your calculations are incorrect on what Time Leap should actually be used for, and it's not debatable how useful it is at the point the original poster is it, which is when he just has Maple Warrior, Pirate's Rage, Speed Infusion, Dragon Strike and Nautilus Strike as alternatives.

Single Cast/Added Reroll
62.5% to 85.9% : Targeting at least one desired buff of three choices
44.44% to 69.14% : Targeting at least one desired buff of two choices
23.61% to 41.65% : Targeting one specific desired buff

8.3333 dice rolls per maxed Time Leap cooldown, round down to 8 dice rolls for delays. Average probability increases uniformly distributed over 8 rolls are 2.925%, 3.0875%, and 2.255% respectively.

Conclusion: Overall probabily boost is not very significant over scenarios involving long periods of time. In one-time tosses, there is a large increase in the probability of obtaining a useful buff. Usefulness for five points is of course, still debatable.

[quote=Tricks122]Especially at the level which the guide currently recommends getting it; it's just before you'd get 10 Maple Warrior, which essentially means that if you don't want Time Leap, you're getting a head-start on a skill that could be useless in parties, since it doesn't stack and is negated by an equal or higher level version of the same skill, or a bit more timer on Speed Infusion, which is already acceptable at level one, or you get one of two skills with the primary focus being Charging Energy, either in bulk with Nautilus Strike or more damage on a charging skill with Dragon Strike. Of course, that's barring the possibility of Hero's Will, but it's unlikely you'd need it at that level.

You can't really disagree with facts, and in terms of benefits, Time Leap is quite good for the amount of points needed in comparison to the other skills available at that point, especially due to how many of those skills are pointless, or near pointless, on a level other than convenience for quite some time, while Time Leap is beneficial on both a convenience and a statistical level.[/quote]

When it comes to MW, I waited a good amount of time before getting it because most of the time in a party at least SOMEONE will have it so it allowed me to place the points into something that would be more beneficial to my training. People rather waste points early on for a boost from MW when you could easily just wait it out and reap the benefits of having TL or another skill plus still get to have MW when a party member already has it... Unless they plan to fully go solo for a while but even then, I was practically solo for a good amount of time and still found TL more useful than having points in MW? To each his own XD Idk, this is the first time that I ever saw people saying that maxing TL would be pointless? I can't really understand that. Maybe I am missing something?

[quote=Wolfss]It was very useful when I was training to 200 and while I was soloing, i would re-roll in hopes for that extra boost in experience :> I would actually attribute being able to hit 200 within my goal due to TL and it's effectiveness during training. I never knew people actually had doubts about TL being useful or not because of how nice it was for me personally o-0 I am sorry to people who disagree, but I just can't see how TL would be a waste of points @_@[/quote]

Especially at the level which the guide currently recommends getting it; it's just before you'd get 10 Maple Warrior, which essentially means that if you don't want Time Leap, you're getting a head-start on a skill that could be useless in parties, since it doesn't stack and is negated by an equal or higher level version of the same skill, or a bit more timer on Speed Infusion, which is already acceptable at level one, or you get one of two skills with the primary focus being Charging Energy, either in bulk with Nautilus Strike or more damage on a charging skill with Dragon Strike. Of course, that's barring the possibility of Hero's Will, but it's unlikely you'd need it at that level.

You can't really disagree with facts, and in terms of benefits, Time Leap is quite good for the amount of points needed in comparison to the other skills available at that point, especially due to how many of those skills are pointless, or near pointless, on a level other than convenience for quite some time, while Time Leap is beneficial on both a convenience and a statistical level.

[quote=Tricks122]I can respect that, but there's just a slight problem; while builds do boil down to opinion, effectiveness does not. Time Leap allows you to potential re-roll a double one into a double Six, and a single Six or Five is a vast improvement to training speed; for any Buccaneer who actually wants to level, then Time Leap coupled with Dice is an excellent combination, and while Dice is technically a "want", it is a "need" for effective leveling.

I adore it when people make their own builds to tailor their needs, but facts are facts; for the small amount of skill points invested in Time Leap, you gain a huge amount of potential benefits in terms of training speed. A static percent experience boost is nothing to scoff at, and if you're not capping, neither is a static percent damage boost; it's very difficult to see how a bit more percent on another skill would be worth such a massive boost with Time Leap, especially upon failure, and this isn't even factoring in the potential party applications, even while training.[/quote]

It was very useful when I was training to 200 and while I was soloing, i would re-roll in hopes for that extra boost in experience :> I would actually attribute being able to hit 200 within my goal due to TL and it's effectiveness during training. I never knew people actually had doubts about TL being useful or not because of how nice it was for me personally o-0 I am sorry to people who disagree, but I just can't see how TL would be a waste of points @_@

[quote=ClericBoyZ15]@Amped: This may sound silly to you, but I personally perceive Lucky Dice
Roll as a "want" -- rather than a "need" (for my personal play style).

Basically these days (for my Buccaneer), I stopped leveling him at level 150;
I just socialize with friends, and help newbs with training (with that character).
Also when I'm grinding on low level enemies (for fun), I really don't mind what
kind of roll I get for the dice.

Don't get me wrong, having a dice roll of 4, 5, or 6 is simply nice to have; however,
I can also live with having a dice roll of 1 (or 2) for the next 3 minutes of cooldown.

Nevertheless, your opinion may beg to differ with mine -- and that's ok! We're all
different, and I would still respect your perspective towards Time Leap (even if I
may not personally agree with it).[/quote]

I can respect that, but there's just a slight problem; while builds do boil down to opinion, effectiveness does not. Time Leap allows you to potential re-roll a double one into a double Six, and a single Six or Five is a vast improvement to training speed; for any Buccaneer who actually wants to level, then Time Leap coupled with Dice is an excellent combination, and while Dice is technically a "want", it is a "need" for effective leveling.

I adore it when people make their own builds to tailor their needs, but facts are facts; for the small amount of skill points invested in Time Leap, you gain a huge amount of potential benefits in terms of training speed. A static percent experience boost is nothing to scoff at, and if you're not capping, neither is a static percent damage boost; it's very difficult to see how a bit more percent on another skill would be worth such a massive boost with Time Leap, especially upon failure, and this isn't even factoring in the potential party applications, even while training.

[quote=ClericBoyZ15]@Amped: This may sound silly to you, but I personally perceive Lucky Dice
Roll as a "want" -- rather than a "need" (for my personal play style).

Basically these days (for my Buccaneer), I stopped leveling him at level 150;
I just socialize with friends, and help newbs with training (with that character).
Also when I'm grinding on low level enemies (for fun), I really don't mind what
kind of roll I get for the dice.

Don't get me wrong, having a dice roll of 4, 5, or 6 is simply nice to have; however,
I can also live with having a dice roll of 1 (or 2) for the next 3 minutes of cooldown.

Nevertheless, your opinion may beg to differ with mine -- and that's ok! We're all
different, and I would still respect your perspective towards Time Leap (even if I
may not personally agree with it).[/quote]

It does sound pretty silly to me, but hey, to each his own. I'm just saying that the majority of people would rather waste a second pressing a key and re-roll a 1,2, or 3 rather than settling with the crappy dice roll. If you're not training, I see why you don't care. On my Buccaneer, I don't give a crap because I'm just killing random monsters and I'm already 200.

[quote=ClericBoyZ15]I basically use almost every skills from 1st - 4th job that Buccaneers has to
offer; however, I personally never found a use for [i]Time Leap[/i], because
I don't party with others, nor that I even boss with others.

Also, I don't care for using it to remove the cooldown for [i]Lucky Dice[/i], since
you'll (eventually) have an opportunity to reuse Lucky Dice again anyways.[/quote]

So you'd rather be buff-less for a few minutes after rolling a 1 rather than resetting it?

Don't waste your sp on it yet. Just put 1 skill into it if you go bossing with other players.

What makes you think Time Leap ISN'T useful.....

[quote=timothy1128]its good for hero's will which has a 2 hour cool down[/quote]

I think you mean Echo of Hero. It's also good for Pirate's Rage so you can get out of Seduce twice if needed.

When I trained I had 1 point in naut as a finishing move just to have. TL does not just help you but it can be extremely useful for parties, like for resurrection and the likes. In the end you can max all your 4th job anyways with many points to spare. So why not max TL? I maxed Naut last, TL was one of the first I maxed because it was nice for dice and other things. With buccs, you can basically choose your build rather than follow a distinct guide. It all goes according to your playing style and preference. you can slowly max it over time, like put 1 point in for now and 2 in another until it maxes.

I maxed it towards last since it's only 5 points and i personally don't use nautilus strike all that much. It does come in handy sometimes when a bishop has to use resurrect or anyone that has a skill that involves a lengthy cooldown time.

Well TL is useful if ya wanna reset the dice though xD.

[quote=bubblecup118]It's just a suggestion, you don't have to follow it.

Don't bother following guides for 4th job, just do what you think is best.[/quote]

Best way to mess up your character; just saying. Skill guides, or at least final skill allocations, generally aren't debatable, except for a few specific classes. Doing "what is best" is if you don't want the most efficient skill-set, at least for end-game, and it will mess you up; it's sort of like maxing Snatch pre-BB. You could, maybe you'd enjoy it, but it severely gimped you by taking away so many potential skill-points that had much better use.

Granted, this is simply a case of preferences; Time Leap allows you to reset the cooldown on a bad/failed Dice, which can garner boosts that help you out. It only takes two levels to max, which offsets the small percentage bonuses you'd get from your next skill, and the benefit could be landing a six or double sixes, which increases your exp by much more than a bit of extra damage from Maple Warrior. It's a much larger benefit than Maple Warrior, which is your next skill, even if you only factor in Time Leap's single-player uses; it becomes much more valuable in a party where it can reset cooldowns for skills like Smoke, Res and other skills that make fights more convenient, and as it gets higher it becomes usable sooner during the same fight or the second run.

In short, it's the option you have that increases your training speed the most, at that point in time; not maxing it is your choice, but the applications are much more beneficial than Maple Warrior, particularly when that skill is rendered useless if someone has an equal or higher level of it.

It's just a suggestion, you don't have to follow it.

Don't bother following guides for 4th job, just do what you think is best.