General

@Rapptz: card got nerfed to 10% and thats for 30seconds iirc. afa 100% 30seconds isnt that great rather then the 100% with just SE most players with funding can have.

Most of the videos I've seen they're overpowered because or their equips and stuff, but most thiefs aren't overpowered, at least for now.

@kenshin948:
65% base, 20% SE, 20% card = 105% crit rate.

@JamesKing: if you read ahead, a few of us have discovered it really is worth stealing rapid fire with a 100% crit rate on 1 monster ONLY
yeah i heard that too, however calculating meso explosion is ridiculously hard to calculate lol.
I too am interested to see if you can use skills in different job talent of the thief to make meso explosion actually any use lol

not gonna lie, im gonna be that guy who steals the most useless skills for fun LOL
(too bad they get rid of buccs barrell hiding skill Q_Q)

@kenshin948: yeah lol, well i dont think its that hard to get w atk anymore
i mean i have 299 atk and my dagger is clean, i only have a 11atk khanjar LOL!
i guess i have 14 lvls over you, but my base dex is 45 and i wasnt paying attention so i have 14base str
buffed will make a HUGE damage difference for phantoms because of %dmg and w atk

Oh yeah in case your interested, i figured out for me(and probly you, because we have similar range)
with a 20% crit rate shadower our dmg from bstep is increased by 61%(as in 670%*1.61) for dmg right now if youd like to know what you'll be hitting post revamp

[quote=daringwaffle]rapid fire would be much better in terms of hits persecond by .01
but in actual damage phantom cant touch it on a sair

could somone tell me how many hits/min rapid fire and ultimate drive WITHOUT a final attack?[/quote]
Drive is 180ms so 5.55 uses or 11 hits per second
Idk RFs ms but its 8.3 hits per second

Also the luk% wep att was me lol. In terms of unbuffed they are extremely hard to fund and fairly weak. Basicly a shad and anyone who has one knows how hard it is to break 40k range. I just barely do it with 108% luk and 326att. And my dex base is 9 and luk is 956.

[quote=kenshin948]But rapid fire cant have 100% crit (unless you have massive crit eqps.) making the avg rate 85% but yes with 100% RF is better by 0.01 in terms of dps.[/quote]

rapid fire would be much better in terms of hits persecond by .01
but in actual damage phantom cant touch it on a sair

could somone tell me how many hits/min rapid fire and ultimate drive WITHOUT a final attack?

EDIT: nvm figured it out so basically rf on a phantom is 275000% dmg per minute or 4583% per second with 100% crit rate
and 666.6%*130+ 333.3*220%=159258%/min or 2654.3%/second with 100% crit rate
correct me if im wrong please
btw this is RF on a phantom not a sair lol

[quote=Rapptz]Carte Noir only procs per skill hit. So if you hit two criticals with Ultimate Drive you will only draw out one card.
That being said, at 180ms and 100% critical rate you have 60000/180 = 333.33 hits (x2) , 333.33 procs for a total of 999.99 hits.
Rapid Fire: 60000/120ms = 500 hits, 500 procs = 1000 hits.

They're both equal when considering 100% crit rate but overall Rapid Fire is easier to cap with and has a higher damage output in terms of speed. Ultimate Drive has the upper advantage of mob damage.[/quote]

But rapid fire cant have 100% crit (unless you have massive crit eqps.) making the avg rate 85% but yes with 100% RF is better by 0.01 in terms of dps.

@kenshin948: if UD is 11 atk/second then with sharp eye crit rate of 80% that would mean theoretically thats 19.8 atks.
so 8.8 of them is 220% ~>1936%
11*130~> 1430%
1430%+1936~>3366%/second

for sairs; rf has 100% afa with 70% so may as well be 400% per rf bullet
400%*8.3~>3320%

SO realistically it is pointless to steal rapid fire, isnt it?

I was always told that Merc IR hits 16x/sec with 70% afa
16*.7=11.2
16*110%~>1760
11.2*105%~>1176
1760+1176~>2936

wow so now apparently Phantom out damages mercs and sairs on 1v1, not sure about how they fair against mechanics at all
but whoever said about 100% luk and 350w atk sounds about right
i have 96% luk and 299w atk on my shad and both have 1.3x weapon multiplier.

I consider them balanced.
Although, yes they can steal skills but that's just a gimmick so.. Who cares?
If you have the funding, of course you'll out damage the majority. This is proof with my Demon Slayer, I used little to no funds, and I was no match compared to someone with a 100k+ range. (Obviously)
If you care for damage, and you have the funding, Mercedes is probably the best in that department. (Just assuming on this one. I quit mine at 170 since they were a bore to me...)

@inemnitable: so itd be more like 30%*1.25=37.5% dmg increase or you pretty much have to not use CA when calculating like this and do it for what your actual range is?
so basically Ultimate drive would be exactly like stunning strike for mercedes.

well i know that Ancient warding and spirit surge stack additively so because they are both %dmg, so i almost think that CA and PoA will stack additively

100k*1.55=155k
or
100k*1.3*1.25=162.5
i wanna say its probly going to stack additively tho just because I've always been told that when you have more than one of %dmg or %atk they add up but if ou have % atk and %dmg the multply

[quote=kenshin948]Not true. Cutting out norte drive is 11 hits per second and rapid fire is 8.3 and since phantom can have 100% crit they can get 16 hits per second with drive which i believe is the second highest dps skill in the game. [/quote]

Carte Noir only procs per skill hit. So if you hit two criticals with Ultimate Drive you will only draw out one card.
That being said, at 180ms and 100% critical rate you have 60000/180 = 333.33 hits (x2) , 333.33 procs for a total of 999.99 hits.
Rapid Fire: 60000/120ms = 500 hits, 500 procs = 1000 hits.

They're both equal when considering 100% crit rate but overall Rapid Fire is easier to cap with and has a higher damage output in terms of speed. Ultimate Drive has the upper advantage of mob damage.

[quote=inemnitable]@daringwaffle:

Cane weapon multiplier is 1.3, but so is Dual Bowguns. I believe that CA and prayer of aria will multiply with each other--at least if prayer of aria works the same as ancient warding. Ultimate Drive is 130% twice at max level, but 50% slower than Ishtar Ring. Rapid Fire however, is 50% more damage than Ishtar Ring and the same speed.

Your point about Noir Carte is excellent, but I'd like to add that it activates even more often on multi-hit skills like Ultimate Drive.[/quote]

Not true. Cutting out norte drive is 11 hits per second and rapid fire is 8.3 and since phantom can have 100% crit they can get 16 hits per second with drive which i believe is the second highest dps skill in the game.
Also there not op it takes over 100% luk and 350att to get over 40k range unbuffed. Im pretty sure a mass majority of maple can not fund that. So idk why anyone considers them op at all. Yes they can steal skills but honestly those skills dont give them a huge boost the majority of buffs to increase range are from there own skills. Stolen skills at max give 30att 25% dmg and 20% crit. Which most classes can geneally get with decent adv bless decent se without the 25% dmg added.

[quote=hnes5213]phamtom is more op than mercedes and ds.
it's possible that phantom who has 45k clean att range can solo empress.
but it's hard to increase att range like shaodower.
and phantom might get nerf soon in KMS.[/quote]

You must be kidding me on the OP part, my merc hits like 50~70k x 2 using rings of ishtar, and I'm hardly funded, that guy on the vid who didn't seem funded at all (like me in this case) hit like 10k x 3, please tell me, what part of phantom is OP?

I myself think that they seem rather balanced in difference from all the other legend classes that has been released, like aran, evan and merc, my evan at lv 102 could take care of two plats himself in Pharao pq, and if I were to compare evans to phantoms, then I'd say that evans are waaaaaaaay more OP

[quote=JoeBlazed]@touchmyswagg ikr its sad so manny people dont know what the pharse op means in maple story

For Noobs : OP - Over Powered; when a mapler has an extremely heavy amount of funding for a class; loosly used by noobs to explain a new class they no nothing about; ex. Omg his I/L Mage is so OP hes hitting 800m ea. Chain Lighting hit at lvl 160.

[/quote]

Correction: Overpowered: When one character is able to hit a lot more damage per second/minute/mobs than any other class, with the exact same investments and funding. Often classes are misunderstood and labeled over powered when idiots watch videos of players in KMS with 999,999 ~ 999,999 range, thinking that these people represent the class.

remember arguing with a guy saying Phantoms were OP, hopefully he see's this and learns how stupid he was
Phantoms are really balanced, people assume class's are OP b/c they watch KMS video's of overly funded people
Phantoms honestly don't hit very high, unless your very funded

itd be a LOT easier to tell you if they are OP if someone could tell me the cane's weapon multiplier :S
if its 1.3 like daggers, it wont be too easy to get a good clean range.
Now we all know, fully buffed, mercedes can double their range.
thats 45%dmg 16%all stat and 40 w atk
phantom can get 55% from CA and prayer of aria, and 30 from one of their attack skills(name slips me) atm
and ultimate drive is the same %dmg, probly even the same speed
so for that skill, no i dont think they are op
However noir cart is what puts phantom way past mercedes because its afa every time you crit, and with a crit rate of about 85%
thats 85% afa 220% instead of 105%(and we all know how much AFA activates on mercedes)
tempest of cards is 400% dmg mob spammable and NC probly activates on it too.

Yeah they might be a little over-powered
But im still gonna make one

@Asiaox123
I'm pretty sure that combo attack doesn't show on your range. Having 25k range doesn't mean you can solo zakum in 4minutes or so. Having a 25k with CA would be like having a 50k range but that isn't clean.

all the attack increase from their buffs looks like it would make them pretty strong.

Sigh, why does people have to complain about a job they never experienced and just cuz they saw videos of PROS doing max damage they believe the job is OP. Trust me i am sure they would need a lot of funding just do do even half of the damage you guys saw in the video. They are nowhere near OP, cuz if u just look at Evan, Aran, Cannoner, Demon Slayer, they can easily to out damage many other jobs with the cheapest funding.

For example, my Aran. He does more damage than my own LVL180 NL if i dont use Shadow Partner and my NL have around like 20-30% Luk while my aran only has a pitiful 3% str.

So why dont all of u haters just stay quiet and actually think about it. ARE YOU EVER GONNA WASTE PROBABLY $1000 in RL so u can make the most OP equips just to make a phantom do max damage per hit? Face the facts. I believe only .1% might actually waste at least $100-$300 to get high % equips but in the end most of them still wont hit max damage ( unless u guys are hackers). Now end of story.

[quote=evan4ever]Why u guys say phantom is balance why the dps chart shows it is first? O.o[/quote]

Which dps chart shows it in first place lol?

[quote=Asiaox123]It's called high weapon multiplier. Something Mages don't have. And Combo Attack.
Why didn't I mention the %Boss? Because it's not that terribly expensive to get.[/quote]

* didnt read full post so idk if this was said* Phantom weapon multpier is 1.3132 so no they do not have a higher multipier. Its like trying to get 50k range on a shad. 110% luk 320att still not there for me so no he does not have 50% luk. Its much more. The only thing phantoms have in there favor is the ability to get a good amount of attack buffs to increase there range. As a base its very low and hard to increase.. Please dont make baseless statements.

*typed this on my ipad so please pardon my spelling amd grammar mistakes*

Actually, they're pretty underpowered, I think.
They have incredible potential to be strong though :O

Balanced. It takes a lot of funding to raise a phantom's range, even if they do have stolen skill buffs.

I guess they're about the same as mercedes, High dps, and avg damage.

Kms style funded = steal your parents credit card and buy Nx. Max damage.

Based on theoretical DPS calculations they're ridiculously overpowered.

It all depends on funding, really, for a thief. Just like Dual Blade, Shads, and NL. For it to steal skills, I think it will affect alot of damage. Without skill stealing, it would probably be balanced.
At 4th job, your damage is most likely going to increase alot (I mean like 5-15k attk range+). But through Lv 1-110, you'll probably be a little higher then balanced.
This is just my opinion, though, see?

Balance because when u 120 and funded u can max damage like a pro.

i personally think the whole game is OP *insert troll face*

i mean really, potential locks now? scroll gaurds? even nebulite?----that concept was taken straight out of diablo 2.. its like maplestory EXPECTS us to make perfect weapons/equips now. did you know that one person could invest about 20 dollars just to insure ONE scroll works on an item?
anyone with enough funding will reap the most benifits with ANY class. maplestory targets rich players to the point now wheres its not funny enough to actually be funny again.
what you guys need is a video of a phantom thats not wearing anything special, just the equips for its level, and see its damage. or you can post your average equipped phantoms damage on basil like most people normally do when a new class comes out.
either way, just wait for the class to come out and play it yourself. :T

its only op when there is a lot of funding involved o.o

how is it not overpowered? basilmarket is stupid.

so can he steal SE and HB?

Phantom is actually pretty weak, just has some helpful skills that's it

[quote=SnailsOP]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEMIcZ-K-OQ
Nuff' Said[/quote]

Nuff Said! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsaUflx8qYI

Really can't wait to play this class! So many options to choose from in terms of skills to steal etc. Finally some diversity!

Balanced if not under powered.

i wonder how much ppl its going to make a phantom expecting to hit just like in the youtube videos with a 10 att wg funding

Maybe Over Fun since they can do short and long distance =]

@JamesKing somewhere near 50 ws 60 prot 40 20% pinks and 30 aees and 2 150m hammers

it can be both, the class stealing is overpowered but his normal skills are mostly weak

(flame-shield on?)

[quote=JamesKing]With only 47% luk and a 47k range, your weapons have to be both perfected and most likely hacked to above normally possible attack. My dual blade has a 17x att dag, 8x att katara, and 74% luk with a 34k clean range.

@Asiaox123: I like how you defended so firmly that he had 40-50%, then loosened up, then just agreed with this guy saying he has 60-70% luk now...

Either way, the point I'm trying to make is that a phantom is not so overpowered that anyone could easily fund it to destroy bosses. It's really not that OP, guys.. The guy in the video was obviously well funded.[/quote]

I never said my weapons were'nt ...OP

and theyre not hacked, theyre duped
195 atk 50% boss vip dagger 15% pdr
163 atk vip katara 30% boss 30% pdr
scrolled katara myself

>mfw people think Phatoms are balanced.

Most kmsers say its overpowered as hell, I mean seriously its going to be nerfed sooner or latter.

I think it's gonna be really stupid at the beginning when it first comes out, as everyone will try to make one and there will be no adventurers to steal from
But later it'll all be good

he has around 60-70% luk guys (hes got about 1665 luk), i have 47% luk and im getting 1500 luk , 47k range

underpowered

well they can steal skill they can steal all att buff and get high dmg

@travislebron :

you can't even spell

Look Phantom is OP if you got decent funding!

@Miauri: That's why I said [i]if a Phantom and I both use Hurricane[/i]. I was making a comparison based on using the exact same skill.

i actually play phantoms. They are weaksauce. no BS.