General

-facepalm-
If you actually read .. you would've known thats its not ON ground zero ,but a few blocks away.

Im moving back to europe.

[quote=MyOracle]okay, but it is a community center for muslims. controversially, its the same[/quote]
It's a community center for the COMMUNITY, which means ANYONE who wants to go there.

It's like going to the "Y" to swim... ever heard of the YMCA..? ("Young Mens [i]Christian[/i] Association" )
Anyone can go there to swim or work out or whatever.

Same thing.

And a community center is NOT the same thing as a mosque.

[quote=BobR]What about the common decency of not blaming every single member of a group for the actions of a tiny, tiny, minority of its members..?

Your stance might make some kind of sense if they WERE building a "mosque" festooned with crescents and with loudspeakers broadcasting the call to prayer ON ground zero. But that's not what it is. You're taking a very intolerant stance against an entire group of people for an imagined affront genned up by a "news agency".

@MyOracle You're not paying attention.

It's NOT A MOSQUE.[/quote]

okay, but it is a community center for muslims. controversially, its the same

[quote=myrdrex]I'm talking about deferring to common decency and decorum.[/quote]
What about the common decency of not blaming every single member of a group for the actions of a tiny, tiny, minority of its members..?

Your stance might make some kind of sense if they WERE building a "mosque" festooned with crescents and with loudspeakers broadcasting the call to prayer ON ground zero. But that's not what it is. You're taking a very intolerant stance against an entire group of people for an imagined affront genned up by a "news agency".

@MyOracle You're not paying attention.

It's NOT A MOSQUE.

[quote=BobR]Yeah... similar.

Like it's a community center like a YMCA open to everyone.
Like it's blocks away from "ground zero".

Like "OMG..! The McDonalds in Queens is at Ground Zero..! How disrespectful..!"

Right... similar.[/quote]

So do you support the mosque being built?

[quote=uiluj4]I don't see why building a German icon near Aushwitz is bad as long as it's not a Nazi icon. But do you think it's insensitive to have the Holocaust Memorial built in what used to be the capital of Nazi Germany? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memorial_to_the_Murdered_Jews_of_Europe

Hawaii has a large population of Japanese and Asian people, so it's not inconceivable or out of the ordinary to have a Japanese cultural center on Oahu.
http://www.hawaiiweb.com/japanese-cultural-center.html

Truman's grandson actually visited the Hiroshima memorial on the 67th commemoration of the atomic bomb dropping on Hiroshima, and the Japanese people don't seem to think it was distasteful or wildly insensitive for him to visit Japan during the commemoration. No one thought it was symbolic of the USA conquering Japan.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2012/aug/06/hiroshima-memorial-harry-truman-video
[/quote]
It's a matter of sensitivity. Not logic and reason- sensitivity. There's no legal reason for someone to NOT build anything they want there. Just like there's no legal reason to not build a shooting range at the site of the Colorado shootings.

However, it's a matter of respect and decency. It's also a matter of time- as you pointed out, the wounds are still surprisingly fresh on this one (I can't logically explain- emotions are fickle). However, even some places many many decades later are still hallowed ground- concentration camps, etc.. Things that place a greater emotional emphasis on those who committed the atrocities as opposed to the victims simply are outside the realm of human compassion and decency.

[quote=uiluj4]You don't live in NYC so I don't expect you to understand, but there are large Muslim neighborhoods in NYC. You can't alienate them just because park51(it's not called cordoba anymore) is a few blocks away from Ground Zero. Yes, they could build it somewhere else, but they shouldn't have to. Like you said, it's perfectly legal.

I think most Americans are more insensitive about 9/11 than Muslims are. Americans are either ranting about how it has been 11years and we should stop commemorating 9/11, or that Muslim people in NYC are trying to conquer the USA via a holy war if we let them build a mosque. I'm starting to think that 9/11 should stop being a national thing and should be something exclusive to New Yorkers because the insensitivity these people on the Internet display is appalling. Muslims are still Americans, and more importantly they are New Yorkers and they suffered from 9/11 too. I argue that Muslims in NYC are more sensitive about 9/11 than most Americans across this nation.[/quote]
Fortunately no, I don't live there.

I worked there, staying at the Marriot WTC until 9-11. Fortunately I wasn't at my project that day, otherwise I would have been walking under the whole thing on my way to the S&P offices when it happeend. Good fortune possibly saved me mental harm at the least, and possibly much much worse. I shudder to think what would have happened if I hadn't had to go to Detroit that week for a project with TRW while taking a break from my S&P project.

But no, I don't live there, just worked for a couple years, so I'm not as familiar with the culture as a native. But that's really irrelevant when it comes to taste. I have basic human decency. It's what stops me from saying something thoughtless for a while after someones wife, child, parents, or other die (which I've sadly encountered all too often, thankfully never to me though).

There's no hard and fast rules for basic decorum and decency. There's no "you need to give it 18 blocks and 8.72 years". It's all in how the very sensitive, emotional topic is handled. In this case it was handled poorly. Many victims didn't want it (some did, which is great for them- I'm happy to see the healing taking place and logic and reasoning winning in the end). The original name had terrible connotations and feelings of victim families were hurt. I defer to that.

Time heals all wounds. Maybe if dealt with in a better manner, later, it wouldn't have come across as callous and insensitive to so many. Like many things in life, just because someone has the RIGHT to do something doesn't make it a tactful, sensitive, or humane thing to do.

@BobR Wow that's some serious grandstanding.

Get off your high horse- no one here is anti-Islamic. I'm talking about deferring to common decency and decorum. You and I have every RIGHT as Americans to do all sorts of horrifically insensitive acts. But that doesn't make it the good and decent thing to do.

Who close to you has died? Have you lost a child? A wife? Mother, Father? Hopefully not, but if you have, think back to the raw horrific wounds. Think back to how things reminded you of the breathtakingly staggering void in your life- little things others overlooked would be a sucker punch- but most everyone went out of their way to shield you from thoughtless or insensitive comments that would re-open that wound. As time went by they didn't need to walk on eggshells quite so much and life returned to a semblance of normal. That's the common decency that I'm talking about. There's no hard and fast rule, there's only how things were handled in the eyes of those suffering. In this case it wasn't well. When a close friends looses a child, for example, there's no hard and fast rule that says you don't post you own children's pictures on Facebook for 62 days. You play it by ear and see how the grieving is doing and adjust your actions accordingly. We'd have every RIGHT to do all sorts of thoughtless things, but anyone with a shred of decency thinks long and hard about how their actions impact those who are grieving.

And that's what this is about- the grieving and how they feel. Everyone has a RIGHT to not care about that, but human decency and compassion, if it means anything, means we do care very much about it.

@myrdrex Fox News is the organization who was behind drumming up the misinformed resentment on the parts of the sheeple who believe anything Fox tells them, and was the originator of the misinformation that shaped the thinking which lead to the incorrect statements that started this thread.

Muslims didn't kill anyone on 9/11, terrorists did.
You plan to blame every Muslim in the world for the actions of (supposedly) 19 of them..?

And... how far away do you propose they be banned from having any place in our society..? 1000 feet from the sits of their enemies..? Half a mile..?
Should all Muslims be banned from Manhattan Island in perpetuity so none of them comes close to "hallowed ground"..?
Maybe they should be barred from New York State, just in case.

And just who are the "enemies" of Muslims..?
There were TWO areas used as Islamic areas of worship in the World Trade Center towers that went down just as lethally as everything else there.
Along with Muslim American citizens who died at the hands of terrorists.

Let me introduce you to The United States of America. We celebrate religious freedom here. You're welcome to stay as long as you like.

[quote=BobR]So you're a Fox News twist the truth to your own ends type then..?

It's NOT A MOSQUE.
It's NOT AT "the ruined sits of your enemies".[/quote]

No, I'm a realist.

It's a site dedicated to Islamic studies. Whether it's a mosque or not is absolutely irrelevant. It's the overall symbolism of it- the name, the proximity, the tie to the proclaimed cause of the murderers, etc...

It has nothing to do with whether it's a mosque. It's symbolic of the people who were slaughtered in that area in the name of Islam. Building an Islamic icon in/near the wide area encompassing the carnage is insensitive.

And enough going to the Fox News well- it's irrelevant. If you think there's nothing wrong with said symbolism, fine. Attempting to blame people's distaste on some mythical boogeyman of Fox News misses the larger picture. The care and reverence of sites of mass murder is something that's been going on for centuries longer than some random cable news show.

[quote=myrdrex]building Mosques upon the ruined sits of your enemies just adds more tastelessness to it.[/quote]
So you're a Fox News twist the truth to your own ends type then..?

It's NOT A MOSQUE.
It's NOT AT "the ruined sits of your enemies".

[quote=BobR]You must have missed the other pages of the discussion.

It's NOT A MOSQUE.
It's NOT AT GROUND ZERO.

It's a FOX NEWS LIE.[/quote]

It's as Islamic spiritual/prayer center.

Don't mince words and hide behind semantics- it's a cheap and lazy way to dodge the actual issue which is the insensitivity shown by it. Whether it was a German rec center, WW2 museum, Panzer tank display, a Bach center, or other symbolically German center it would be inappropriate for it to be at Auschwitz.

It's the symbolism that is incredibly tactless. And naming it after Muslim conquest and building Mosques upon the ruined sits of your enemies just adds more tastelessness to it.

[quote=MyOracle]But its very similar to that.[/quote]
Yeah... similar.

Like it's a community center like a YMCA open to everyone.
Like it's blocks away from "ground zero".

Like "OMG..! The McDonalds in Queens is at Ground Zero..! How disrespectful..!"

Right... similar.

[quote=BobR]You must have missed the other pages of the discussion.

It's NOT A MOSQUE.
It's NOT AT GROUND ZERO.

It's a FOX NEWS LIE.[/quote]

But its very similar to that.

[quote=myrdrex]It's wildly insensitive.

Perfectly legal, and I'm glad that we live in a country where a Mosque CAN be built at ground zero, but I absolutely disapprove of it.[/quote]
You must have missed the other pages of the discussion.

It's NOT A MOSQUE.
It's NOT AT GROUND ZERO.

It's a FOX NEWS LIE.

I thought it was going to be placed somewhere near this site in which case I couldn't understand why anybody would be opposed to it

It's wildly insensitive.

Perfectly legal, and I'm glad that we live in a country where a Mosque CAN be built at ground zero, but I absolutely disapprove of it.

I would disapprove of a German icon built at Auschwitz, I would disapprove of a Shinto shrine or other Japanese cultural center at Pearl Harbor, I would disapprove of a US War Museum or Statue of Oppenheimer at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I would disapprove of a shooting gallery/target range being opened upon the site of a mass killing like the Colorado movie theater. It's poor taste.

Perfectly legal, but poor taste. It symbolizes what the attack was done in the name of (no matter how twisted the individuals interpretation of it).

And the name itself is terrible- "Cordoba" represents Muslim conquering and the tearing down of your enemies monuments and building of mosques upon the ruins. That's absolutely terrible taste.

How about an atomic bomb statue in Hiroshima? maybe even an airplane spraying Agent orange in Vietnam!

>build a muslim place of worship at ground zero
>9/11 caused by radical muslims

definitely not related at all

they can go ahead and pull it off but i wonder how long they'll last before someone vandalizes that place.

I honestly don't care what people build there.

If another office building had been built there, I'm certain fewer people would be offended.

[quote=YourPirateGuy]To back up this correct statement;

Do people realize that http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2010/04/12/not-one-jew-was-killed-in-the-9-11-attacks-and-the-wtc-is-full-of-jewish-workers/
Do people realize that 4000 jews were given the day off?[/quote]

woah o___o

:/ I don't mind the fact that a Muslim com. center is being built, but I don't think it's a good idea considering what other people might do.

[quote=MosDef][b]Some Muslims also passed away in the 9/11 attacks, so it makes no sense.[/b]

Please cut it with this 9/11 crap, more people die due to obesity in the USA than by terrorist attacks.[/quote]

To back up this correct statement;

Do people realize that http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2010/04/12/not-one-jew-was-killed-in-the-9-11-attacks-and-the-wtc-is-full-of-jewish-workers/
Do people realize that 4000 jews were given the day off?

Sure why not?

[quote=loserjanette]I think it's just an idea. The media loves to get the sheep riled up.[/quote]
Actually it was definitely in the works, but Fox News genned up fake resentment on the part of misinformed people and started this whole "Mosque at Ground Zero" flap.
None of it was true (typical for Fox News) but it caused all kinds of trouble and the developer received so many threats that they put it on hold last I'd heard.

Its only in the area, like down the street from where the wtc was. Plus its not like its a muslim only place, anyone can go. Its like a ymca kinda place.

[quote=Chubsin]This is a lot like the Pledge of Allegiance where in one line it says, "One nation under God." Dozens of lawsuits filed for this are pointless in my opinion. If you don't like it, DON'T SAY IT. Seriously -_-
No need to make a big deal about these things.[/quote]

It's still illegal to have that in there. Church and state are supposed to stay separate. It wasn't even added till the 50's.

Muslims died on that flight too. Although it's pushing the line a bit, they should be able too.

EDIT: It's not even a mosque, nor is it on Ground Zero? Get off your high horse Americans.

[quote=MagicFrappe]It does seem like that now that I think about it.
There was that one public school that for choir practice they had to sing 'This Little Light of Mine' or another song associated with Christianity, just because it was a good warm up, and Atheist groups pounced on them threatening to sue because it was oppressing them or something like that.

Of course, not all atheists are like that. I actually know quite a few and a lot of them for the most part are very nice and love coffee. (But anyone who drinks coffee is okay in my book.)

I just wish we could set aside our petite religious grudges and all just get along. That goes for both sides...[/quote]
This is a lot like the Pledge of Allegiance where in one line it says, "One nation under God." Dozens of lawsuits filed for this are pointless in my opinion. If you don't like it, DON'T SAY IT. Seriously -_-
No need to make a big deal about these things.

[quote=SeeMeTwice]Hmmm.

Well there was an uncovered piece of rubble/bars that was found that looked much like a cross.
They put it up. The "cross," yes it was obvious it was a cross, was a symbol of hope for Americans and had strong meaning for families of those killed.

Atheists said it made them "physically and mentally sick" which is the biggest load I've ever heard in my life.

Their other argument was that they were not allowed to put up something as a memorial which I could understand completely. If the Christians got something, it should be fair because not only Christians were killed.
But (this is a serious question) what would Atheists put up? Why did they care if the majority of the people there and the majority of the affected country had a symbol of hope? It just seems to me like some Atheist groups are not only against religion, but jump at any chance they get to have any of it removed from anywhere.[/quote]

It does seem like that now that I think about it.
There was that one public school that for choir practice they had to sing 'This Little Light of Mine' or another song associated with Christianity, just because it was a good warm up, and Atheist groups pounced on them threatening to sue because it was oppressing them or something like that.

Of course, not all atheists are like that. I actually know quite a few and a lot of them for the most part are very nice and love coffee. (But anyone who drinks coffee is okay in my book.)

I just wish we could set aside our petite religious grudges and all just get along. That goes for both sides...

[quote=Grodon156]-Implying all Muslims are terrorists.

I'm sure if it was a church, nobody would care, and people might even promote it.
Unless you just think it should stay how it is.[/quote]

Hmmm.

Well there was an uncovered piece of rubble/bars that was found that looked much like a cross.
They put it up. The "cross," yes it was obvious it was a cross, was a symbol of hope for Americans and had strong meaning for families of those killed.

Atheists said it made them "physically and mentally sick" which is the biggest load I've ever heard in my life.

Their other argument was that they were not allowed to put up something as a memorial which I could understand completely. If the Christians got something, it should be fair because not only Christians were killed.
But (this is a serious question) what would Atheists put up? Why did they care if the majority of the people there and the majority of the affected country had a symbol of hope? It just seems to me like some Atheist groups are not only against religion, but jump at any chance they get to have any of it removed from anywhere.

[quote=metaghost4]@MosDef: Have you not been listening to the other posters? It's pouring salt on a wound, many people see it as disrespect for the people that died that day. And it means a lot more when you knew a victim or you were there that day. They probably still hold enough prejudice to be against a Mosque at ground zero.[/quote]

You apparently didn't read. It's NOT AT GROUND ZERO. You CAN'T EVEN SEE IT FROM GROUND ZERO.

IT'S NOT A MOSQUE. It's a Community Center.

And, it's OLD NEWS.

[quote=metaghost4]@MosDef: Have you not been listening to the other posters? It's pouring salt on a wound, many people see it as disrespect for the people that died that day. And it means a lot more when you knew a victim or you were there that day. They probably still hold enough prejudice to be against a Mosque at ground zero.[/quote]
It shouldn't be a disrespect. I understand that losing a loved one is hard, but you can't allow that to prejudice you against Muslims. It causes more harm than good.
This is especially true for people who haven't lost any loved ones. They have no excuse.
The people who died and their families are not the only victims; Muslims are also victims. They can't go to an airport without the TSA bringing out the heavy duty equipment, they can't go to the store without people staring at them, and even Sikhs (who somewhat look like Muslims) are hated on (think temple shooting.)

[quote=demunpuncher]For one, it's not even at Ground Zero, it's a few blocks away.
Two, it's not even a mosque, it's a community center. Just because it has a place for prayer in it does not mean it's a mosque, that's like calling St. Mary's Hospital a church because it has a place for prayer inside.
Three, no one cares about the halal stand on the same street as Ground Zero, and it's as Islamic as a mosque.
Four, this is a bigger first world problem than not being able to find your phone charger. It's also just adding the pile or retarded crap we Americans complain about that other first world countries mock us for. It's a "mosque", not a Guerrilla Tactics and Warfare Training Center for Acts of Terrorism.[/quote]
I agree with you on basically every point. Except, unfortunately, some people are too stupid, lazy, or naive to understand that it's just a place of worship, and not a guerilla tactics and warfare training center for acts of terrorism. To many stereotypical Americans, Muslim=terrorist, which just isn't true. People are too lazy to realize their stereotypes are not true, and it hinders free religion.

[quote=MyOracle]exactly what im thinking...

@chubsin - its not their fault, the muslims ARENT the victims. The attacks were based on religon, you can't deny that. Although the religon isn't wrong, making a place to worship it where the incident took place is not right.[/quote]
The Muslims are also victims. They can't go to airports without getting super special security. They can't go anywhere without people staring at them. Even Sikhs can't go to temples without radical "religion"-ists killing them. No, I will not deny that is was based on religion, nor will I defend them.

[quote=DaBrownGuy]Muslims can put there mosque somewhere else.
They know who caused 911, why would they put a mosque there.
Seriously...[/quote]

exactly what im thinking...

@chubsin - its not their fault, the muslims ARENT the victims. The attacks were based on religon, you can't deny that. Although the religon isn't wrong, making a place to worship it where the incident took place is not right.

[quote=DaBrownGuy]Muslims can put there mosque somewhere else.
They know who caused 911, why would they put a mosque there.
Seriously...[/quote]
It's not like the collective group of Muslims all got on a plane and all committed suicide.
Think of the Jerry Sandusky incident. Is it the students fault that Jerry Sandusky did what he did?
@myoracle:

[quote=fraddBS]@dracox5234: Please elaborate.

Are our posts together ironic? Are both of our posts ironic on their own?[/quote]

teaful answered your statement.

Muslims can put there mosque somewhere else.
They know who caused 911, why would they put a mosque there.
Seriously...

[quote=Grodon156]That was an idiotic statement.
Comparing the Islamic religion to Hitler.
Hitler was one person who did a bad thing.
The Islamic religion is full of Billions of people.
Putting a statue of Hitler in Israel is an obvious reference to what he did.
Putting a Mosque on ground zero is just... putting a Mosque on ground zero.[/quote]

BUT WHY THERE? Why would anyone want a mosque at ground zero..? of all the places?

@MyOracle: Those are two completely different things. Also, I never said it's racist. Muslim is not a race. It's a religion.
Also, the beliefs of some Muslims do not mean all the Muslims believe the same thing.
On the other hand, Hitler's goal was to completely wipe out the Jews. His wasn't even based on a religion, just his own psychotic beliefs.

[quote=Chubsin]I don't think they should put anything on Ground Zero; it's a memorial, not an area for worship. Not to mention, it's Muslim (not that it matters to me, but to many people it makes a big difference. Especially the naive people who stereotype all Muslims as terrorists.)[/quote]

Its not racist, its just the fact that they picked a place where a religious attack took place to put the mosque.. Its honestly like putting a Hitler memorial statue in Israel...

@bdsm: It shouldn't matter what beliefs people have or what religion. It's a memorial; dedicated to the people who lost their lives in 9/11. Also, from a religious point, why would you want your church/temple in a memorial?

There shouldn't be anything wrong with it... Muslims shouldn't get penalized because of a group of idiots.

I don't think they should put anything on Ground Zero; it's a memorial, not an area for worship. Not to mention, it's Muslim (not that it matters to me, but to many people it makes a big difference. Especially the naive people who stereotype all Muslims as terrorists.)

No, I'm sorry, no.