General

@Ravens: it hasnt been common for the past 10 patches cause cwk hasnt been available (till recently obviously) think a little b4 you post...i also never said my wand was rare

-waits for all the duped e-staves in MTS to be deleted along with their counterparts and watches everyone cry while I keep my staff 5-

[quote=tsubasa128]What? the people you met are crazy. I always thought the ele staves are a necessity for bams. And why is it called 'staves' and not 'staffs'? o.o[/quote]

Both are acceptable forms in English. Staves is an older word, but it's the one I was taught as a kid, since it follows the plural rule for double consonants.

ff -> v + es.

What? the people you met are crazy. I always thought the ele staves are a necessity for bams. And why is it called 'staves' and not 'staffs'? o.o

@daringwaffle:

It's like about...30% compared to a slow staff. And let's face it. Aside from the 140 staff in bossing situations, slow staves turn us into one of the weakest classes out there. Even bishops beat us in DPM by a long shot.

@Dathrohen:

It matters because it affects community attitude. What individuals say may not be important, but when that sentiment (and especially ignorant ones) spreads to the community as a whole, it because a problem because the community depreciates. And one the biggest factors in an MMO is the community. MS's is already going down the toilet. Let's not make it worse by NOT standing up and saying a harmful viewpoint is wrong and ill-spirited.

All in all, I think all "normal" staves (the standard level 10-140) should change to normal (6) speed (unless otherwise higher) and elemental bonuses should go back to 25/10% increase. They did the speed change with spears. Why not staves?

That way, there's more variety for usability for battlemages who can't afford estaves, and those A/Ms get their better elemental bonuses back.

[quote=Sharpe1337]The point is that they benifit us a lot while they don't benifit you at all. Although i would never troll a bam for using a estaff, thats kinds silly imo[/quote]

have you not read ANYTHING here at ALL? Ele staffs benefit BaMs HUGELY, probably more than it would benefit all other mages :O
I believe that for each element its like 10% for the primary staff element, and 5% bonus for secondary?(correct me if im wrong)
Im pretty sure there is more than a 10% dmg increase for BaMs from a slow staff to an ele staff...

Above me is 10 pages of internet hate.

The point is that they benifit us a lot while they don't benifit you at all. Although i would never troll a bam for using a estaff, thats kinds silly imo

@Kalemora: No the reason it would be a massive buff to BaMs is that we could suddenly use any other weapon. We could have our cake (attack speed) and eat it too (DTM staff). Which would be a giant buff that we quite frankly don't need. So making other staves faster would unbalance the game, making the ele's slower would unbalance the game, and making non-BaM mages reliant on weapon speed without changing things would force everyone to start using elemental staves (like BaMs do now) which would be bad for the economy of the game.

@Kalemora: Every other class in the game doesn't have every weapon 4 speeds slower than the one option. If every sword in the game was Slow 8 except for one sword that was insanely rare and expensive and had a lot more attack and was fast 4 speed.... well you would basically be screwed over if you didn't pick that sword. It would be bad game design. You don't make one option 100X better than any other option.

For my Hero if I want to use the Reverse, Timeless, VL, VIP, or Agares weapon I will have at most a 10 attack difference. I have 5 options that are more or less equal.
For my BaM if I want to use any weapon other than an Elemental Staff I am killing my DPM (DTM staff post-union being the one exception). I'm not even talking about the 163 staves. I mean that the 103 staves are still better than the VL or Eligos weapons. By a lot.

Basically they shouldn't make weapon speed matter for mages because it is too late to do that. If they introduced it into the game the way the game is now it would mean that anyone not using an Ele is an idiot. If they changed the speed of the ele to match the other weapons it would be a massive nerf to BaMs. If they changed the other weapons to match the speed of an Ele it would be a massive buff to BaMs. None of those are good options. If they had designed it from the beginning to work with weapon speed it would have been fine but at this point it would cause more problems than it is worth.

This was the fate. It was the fate for the Battle Mage to take over all the staffs. To inflat the stuff in price.

[quote=Kalemora]I too, enjoy pulling random statistics out of my ass.

OT: ...You know what would solve this problem? Just let all Mages be affected by weapon speed. I really don't see the point in having a separate system for the majority of Mages. Then everyone benefits from the weapon speed.[/quote]

Bad Idea IMO. All that would do is force every mage in the game to either change over to an Ele or get screwed over. Bishops wouldn't even get the choice. Almost every staff in the game except for the Elemental Staves are slow speed.

[quote=Mysteltein]Each speed step faster = about a 8% overall RANGE increase you need to compensate on a slower staff.

That means if you're using a Fast (4) Staff vs a Slow (8) staff, you'd need about 32% more range with the slow staff for it to have a better DPM.

As you can see, BaMs beneficiate from Elemental staves by a LOT.[/quote]

The problem with the "each step is ~8%" thing is that the number gets larger the closer you are to the speed cap. So the difference between a Slow 7 weapon and a slow 8 weapon is only 6.5% (assuming only Booster) but the difference between a Fast 5 and a Fast 4 (again assuming only booster) is 8%.

The full break down of speed differences using FB: (Using final speed not base speed so Normal 6 is the slowest you can get).
Normal 6 -> Fast 5 = 6.5%
Fast 5 -> Fast 4 = 6.8%
Fast 4 -> Faster 3 = 7.5%
Faster 3 -> Fastest 2 = 8%

If you want to get the differences between speeds that are not adjacent you need to multiply the differences of each step (IE: The difference between Normal 6 and Fast 4 is (1.065 * 1.068 = 1.137[lol])).

@LightCuber: I see your point, the elemental boost may not be as good of a boost as the current speed boost. I wouldn't want to lose DPS either. But my point is that the weapons are unfair. All mages should get the same benefit from elemental staves.

Now, if someone could find the percent difference of damage in a fast vs slow staff for battlemages, I would be fine with the ele staves staying fast, and the elemental boosts being changed to match that boost.

Once again, I'm not trying to oppose battlemages in a class pride war. If I were, I would want all ele staves to become wands... But I don't! I just want the staves to be fair.

[quote=Quickjumper7]I think that, to even the elemental staves effectiveness for all classes, two changes should be made to them:
1. Change Weapon Speed from 4 to 6/7/8. (whichever is the norm, I don't know much about the other end game BaM staves)
2. Add a dark elemental staff and a holy elemental staff. (Also, give most BaM main skills the dark element, to benefit from this.)[/quote]

BaMs don't need an elemental boost. They need attacking speed because they're the only mages that are significantly affected by speed. If both of those changes took affect (or even just one) most BaMs wouldn't use elemental staves (except maybe the 163 ones) because of the slow speed. You'd see a ton more people carrying ugly brown mushrooms. My dragon staff is 140 matt and my elestaff4 is 132. I'll willingly choose the elestaff because it's 4 steps faster than the dragon staff.

@AckarRed: I know. I'm saying that our bonus got nerfed, so why shouldn't battlemages'?
I don't ACTUALLY want battlemages to be hurt by a nerfed weapon, but the TS claimed that it would be unjust, and I disagree.

[quote=Quickjumper7]They are broken, actually. The elements are incorrect for many of them, leaving the elemental mages with less of a boost than they should have. They were also nerfed from 125/110 to 110/105. How would you feel if Nexon nerfed the ele staves from speed 4 to speed 7?
But please, don't let my suggestions bother you much. Its not like Nexon will actually do anything.[/quote]

Nexon intended to nerf their elemental bonus after they brought their elemental bonus back.

[quote=LittleTLK]I don't like either of those changes, because it's unjustly harmful to me.
I'd be attacking slower, cutting my dpm, and I'd have to get a new staff, since mine is an estaff 6, and under those rules, I'd be cut an additional 25% damage.

They're perfectly fine the way they are now.

A/Ms get their elemental boost and battlemages get their attack speed.
What's the point in fixing something that isn't broken?[/quote]

They are broken, actually. The elements are incorrect for many of them, leaving the elemental mages with less of a boost than they should have. They were also nerfed from 125/110 to 110/105. How would you feel if Nexon nerfed the ele staves from speed 4 to speed 7?
But please, don't let my suggestions bother you much. Its not like Nexon will actually do anything.

What's wrong with Battlemages using EStaves?
We can use ANY staff we want to, its not your job to tell us what staff to buy.
It's the strongest fast speed staff, so why not?
Just because we don't have an element means we can't use an EStave?
That's really sad. </3
All mages have the same right to buy EStaves, who are you to judge us? >.<

[quote=Zenarkenstin]As a F/P Mage, I find it slightly annoying. Mostly for elestaves 5 and 6, these are difficult to find and are usually overpriced due to their rarity and overall usefulness to both classes. More annoying is the fact that I have never seen a BaM that has not been using hacks (Vac, Invuln, Fly, ect)

As a new BaM, I feel like weapon attack speed for all staves should be adjusted accordingly. I am lv 55 and still using a lv 25 staff (mainly because I was too busy training with a friend to upgrade) and am doing just fine. Sure, we could use fast staves to maximize our dps, but I feel like there should be a wider choice of fast staves or more available elestaves.

In short, there should be more fast staves, or elestaves should be easier to obtain for everyone.[/quote]

You're telling me that, with all the dozens of Elemental Staff 6's being duped, that they're overpriced and hard to find?

You're silly.

The only reason every one hates BaMs with ele staves is because there were never that many ele weapons to begin with. CWKPQ bonus? Puh-lease, the chance of getting it is no different than using a gachapon, it's all luck. So there were never that many in circulation. On top of that, archmages had no competition with ele weapons before, bar evans wanting the fire staff vs f/ps. so when BaMs came into the picture, it made matters worse since how common BaMs were compared to archmages. The more BaMs that came in, the more they snatch up the ele staves before archmages can. To make matters worse, the only lvl 163 staves around are the duped one in MTS. (I beleive it's the ice staff?). The poison, fire, and lightning staves are literally non existent. What this does is that it hurts the chances for an f/p and an evan to an ele weapon and makes it much harder to compete for BaMs and I/Ls to get the duped one. Plus it's a DUPED weapon, chances are it's gonna get removed one of these days.

My solution:
GET MORE ele staves into circulation! Seriously, make more bosses drop them (Castellan Toad is the only boss that does and only gives ele staves 1-44, the lvl 103 ones), make CWKPQ drop all the ele weapons (mostly the only ones you'd get is the fire wand and I think the ice staff), and if even remotely possible, make ele staves craftable!

And to at least help alleviate some stress for archmages, make lvl 70 ele wands a whole lot more common! Seriously, they are weak and just not worth the effort to get by other means. And even if you DO get them, no one even wants on the account of being just a lvl 70 wand!

[quote=Quickjumper7]I believe it was proven a while ago that BaM's get more benefit from the fast speed than elemental mages get from the elemental boost. Elemental mages, including myself, viewed it as unfair, because they took away the elemental boosts, while BaM's continued to benefit from them. Even when that boost was restored, it was nerfed and glitched.

I think that, to even the elemental staves effectiveness for all classes, two changes should be made to them:
1. Change Weapon Speed from 4 to 6/7/8. (whichever is the norm, I don't know much about the other end game BaM staves)
2. Add a dark elemental staff and a holy elemental staff. (Also, give most BaM main skills the dark element, to benefit from this.)[/quote]

I don't like either of those changes, because it's unjustly harmful to me.
I'd be attacking slower, cutting my dpm, and I'd have to get a new staff, since mine is an estaff 6, and under those rules, I'd be cut an additional 25% damage.

They're perfectly fine the way they are now.

A/Ms get their elemental boost and battlemages get their attack speed.
What's the point in fixing something that isn't broken?

I believe it was proven a while ago that BaM's get more benefit from the fast speed than elemental mages get from the elemental boost. Elemental mages, including myself, viewed it as unfair, because they took away the elemental boosts, while BaM's continued to benefit from them. Even when that boost was restored, it was nerfed and glitched.

I think that, to even the elemental staves effectiveness for all classes, two changes should be made to them:
1. Change Weapon Speed from 4 to 6/7/8. (whichever is the norm, I don't know much about the other end game BaM staves)
2. Add a dark elemental staff and a holy elemental staff. (Also, give most BaM main skills the dark element, to benefit from this.)

[quote=LittleTLK]@crazypoorer:

It has nothing to do with the cost for me.
It's the irrational logic behind hating a class using certain weapons.

It's like hating DS's that use crushed skulls because those are normal (6), so obviously, they should use their OWN level 120 scepters (bws) instead.

And you're pulling the "random stranger" excuse. These opinions DO impact me, because if this ignorant viewpoint is spread unopposed, soon others will pick it up and start sharing it in-game. The community sucks lately because so few people are vocal about opposing people "on the internet". While this is "just a game", the people playing it are very much real, and their attitudes while playing DOES impact others.[/quote]

Well i agree with some part of u
but really it doesn't impact you just smile and let it go

@crazypoorer:

It has nothing to do with the cost for me.
It's the irrational logic behind hating a class using certain weapons.

It's like hating DS's that use crushed skulls because those are normal (6), so obviously, they should use their OWN level 120 scepters (bws) instead.

And you're pulling the "random stranger" excuse. These opinions DO impact me, because if this ignorant viewpoint is spread unopposed, soon others will pick it up and start sharing it in-game. The community sucks lately because so few people are vocal about opposing people "on the internet". While this is "just a game", the people playing it are very much real, and their attitudes while playing DOES impact others.

@xKlaudex:

There's no penalty because we don't use elemental attacks. We only have two attacks that have elemental attribute: dark shock and dark genesis. Dark Attributes actually have neutral affects on all mobs. There is no mob that is dark weak or dark resist, even the ones hiddenstreet says is resistant (crimson rog). Also, dark attribute isn't implemented in the elemental weapons, because it didn't exist back then.

Bishops don't get a nerf when using magic claw, teleport mastery or energy bolt using a estaff, because those attacks are neutral-element, like our blows, finisher and twister.

i can tell that those noobs hating on bams because they have estaff complains because they can't afford one ... just lame people being lame

[quote=LittleTLK]This has to end.

Few things boil my blood as much as being told as a Battlemage, I shouldn't be using an elemental staff, because it's not "mine".
Somehow, huffy Evans, i/L mages and f/p mages are getting their nickers in a wad because Battlemages like to use elemental staves.

What weapon I choose to use is my own. It is not YOUR job to tell me what I can and cannot use. There is no rule that says only YOU GUYS get to use elemental staves. It's the best weapon we battlemages can currently use, as well as all other mages except bishops.

Best example I've seen in a while:

I paid a lot of money for my item and I'm not going to give it up just because some elitist "old school" player thinks they should only be used by elemental mages.
Learn to deal with the fact that another class uses the same type of weapon as you.[/quote]

Why are you listening to random strangers on the net?
You make it sound like they can afford something expensive that you can

Eh, I feel a bit sad that there's no penalty for BaMs using an E Staff or E Wand; They were originally meant for elemental mages, hence why they added penalty for Bishops.

This problem could be solved if Nexon made end game staves aimed at each class respectively, but I doubt they would cater to all the mages that nicely.

Just got an elemental staff 7 for my BaM. You mad I/Ls? -_-

again, why do people make such a big deal about weapon-sharing? like it matters! this just in. GET OVER IT! it's just a game, they're taking it too far. they need to get off the collective BatM case.

lol this is funny.....what makes people think that a certain staff belongs to a certain class? If it was like that, don't you think Nexon would of done that like they did with the evan equips?

[quote=ManyQuestions]How about you post this thread in the GENERAL section where not everyone that visits this thread is biased?[/quote]

For one, this topic relates to battlemages.
For two, I've already posted it.

@LittleTLK: Welcome~

it almost sounds like elemental mages could easily get their hands on these staves.

[quote=Improvement]Oh, and I just have to say this. @LittleTLK: OMFG, your hair and eyes are SO cute and I'm SO BLOODY JELLY, cause I never got either of that hair or eyes and they're my favorites. T_T You rock dat staff, you're too pretty to not deserve it.[/quote]

o.o" ummmm....thanks~

[quote=Mysteltein]Empress staff is better, yeah, but only for bossing. Meaning that you'd have to have 2 staves, an ele and the empress, for overall usefullness.

I think Cthulhusama made the calculations and it came out about 8% better for bossing.

But slow staves just don't appeal to me and they also have horrible drain and cornering speed.[/quote]

It depends on how much % bossing you have other than from the DTM set. If you have none it is a lot better, if you have 30% it is around 10% better, if you have 50% (40% legendary pot + 10% DS linked skill) it is more like 7% better.

I completely agree with you about the slow speed not being as fun. Although with Decent SI it would be like using an ele without booster on which isn't as bad as staves are now but then again I don't really want to go and get Decent SI....

Thread reminded me of when the holy penalty on elemental weapons was broken and ineffective. Since most 4th job magicians were Bishops, a sizeable portion of which had gotten very rich from 1- or 2-hko leeching at Skeles or PG leeching at Peak (which Archmages couldn't match without a HS mule or 1hkoing before the Bishop could) most of the extremely limited Ewand supply had been taken up by said Bishops who were taking advantage of a weapon that was specifically designed to augment the ailing damage of Archmages (by a particularly large margin of 25%). At this point, Archmages had a good case since the only reason that Bishops could use the weapons at all was because of a bug, a glitch, an error that Nexon did eventually (after much pushing) acknowledge as such. They had never been intended for use by Bishops at all, yet most of the supply were in the hands of Bishops because they were not functioning as intended.

Times have changed though. Supplies are nowhere near as limited as they were and the boosts in attack power the Archmage class have been given recently far outstrip the need for the nerfed and now trivial (and sometimes polarised) 5/10% bonuses the elemental weapons give in gMS. The Estaves in concern have been fast (4) since they were released in gMS, were also fast (4) when they were released in their native version jMS and if I recall are still fast (4) in every version that has them today. It is fairly safe to say that while the original reasons for the staves being made fast (4) have been lost, it was most certainly "intended". Battlemages aren't exploiting some glitch by using them like pre-BB Bishops were. Even with the boost Battlemages gain from the extra speed they are mediocre attackers at best whose primary role will still be their auras/KB and pulling ability/someone to do magical damage.

There is no issue here, I am surprised anyone at all still thinks there is.

I mean honestly the original point of Elemental weapons was to boost the power of explorer Mages because they were so weak, but they're fine now.
Maybe they should just make all staves fast o.o

I don't care what weapon people use. It's not and never will be my place to tell other people how to spend [i]their[/i] money on a game or otherwise. If they want to go out and buy an eStaff? Be my guest. If you want to get to 200 using the level 8 wand your instructor gives you? Awesome.

Using stupid reasoning such as "I have the right to judge you" just makes you appear petty and immature.

[quote=iEatNoobz]Actually BaMs are justified to use eStaffs anyway because they're fast speed, and magic speed actually applies to BaMs and Evans.
I think one or two of the eStaffs are dark elementals and evans obviously use fire A LOT.
So with this said, explorers have equal or less reason to wear an eStaff.[/quote]

Magic Speed and Weapon Speed are different things. All weapons have Weapon Speed, meaning how well that can swing the weapons around, using physically. Battle Mages are the only Magicans to rely on Weapon Speed while the other Magicians are more reliant on Magic Speed, that's where their Magic Booster kicks in while BaMs have Staff Boost.

There is no Estaff that is dark elemental to date and the reason that Evans use the fire one because the majority of the skills they use is fire element.

[quote=LittleTLK]It's the best weapon we battlemages can currently use, as well as all other mages except bishops.

[/quote]

This sentence kinda ruined your rant. (In ems at least)

Actually BaMs are justified to use eStaffs anyway because they're fast speed, and magic speed actually applies to BaMs and Evans.
I think one or two of the eStaffs are dark elementals and evans obviously use fire A LOT.
So with this said, explorers have equal or less reason to wear an eStaff.

[quote=guerratrades]Warning: wall of text comming o-o
To anyone saying that BaMs shouldn't wear ele staves: You're just wrong and you just can't accept it. After all, a mage is a mage no matter what element he/she attacks with or doens't attack with. He/she has the right to wear whichever mage item he/she feels like wearing. I understand other classes of mage might get mad about a BaM wearing an ele staff 5 or maybe 8 too but that's probably because of the rarity of those staves, their prices were going to raise regardless, they're just too rare, I mean c'mon who the hell gachs at Ellinia? and usually ppl buy them for 200k+ in the mts, i know many evans (not me) who have done that. The reason why they were "cheaper" before (less than 100k nx) is because nexon made the elemental boost 0% from an impresive 25% and 10% respectively before BB, thus people devaluated the items for a couple of months. Now if I met a BaM with an ele staff 5/8 who wouldnt sell it for 200k+ nx and then buy a duped ele staff 6/7 for 100k nx I understand them. I wouldn't do it neither. I couldnt replace mine for an empress staff even if my damage was going to be better.

This cliche sums up the situation with ele staves: "survival of the fittest". If a lot of people want the same item, the ones willing to pay the most will have the advantage. Its just common sense.
Oh and I just have one thing to say: I love my Elemental Staff 5 <3 <3<3 haha its the rarest staff in the game :] you jelly? [/quote]

So? You have an Evan.
The Battle Mages with no other mages to benefit from the elemental weapons (Especially 5), that freaking buy them all up makes me feel like smacking a puppy.

At the very least, I wish the blasted 163 Elemental Staves were slowest.
Oh well, there's always the Dragon Tail War Staff.

Actually, most of the Ele Staves I sell in my shop are bought by BaMs. So hurrah for BaMs!

[quote=Exrenbon]You guys do realize that :
The speed bonus from ele staffs gives more dps than the elemental bonuses given to adventurer mages?[/quote]

Perfectly true. It's in a sense unfair that the staves were originally intended to benefit elemental users gives a greater damage advantage to BaMs.

Oh, and I just have to say this. @LittleTLK: OMFG, your hair and eyes are SO cute and I'm SO BLOODY JELLY, cause I never got either of that hair or eyes and they're my favorites. T_T You rock dat staff, you're too pretty to not deserve it.

People QQing about it just cant face facts that they cant afford one or that theres none to buy in their price range.

Warning: wall of text comming o-o
To anyone saying that BaMs shouldn't wear ele staves: You're just wrong and you just can't accept it. After all, a mage is a mage no matter what element he/she attacks with or doens't attack with. He/she has the right to wear whichever mage item he/she feels like wearing. I understand other classes of mage might get mad about a BaM wearing an ele staff 5 or maybe 8 too but that's probably because of the rarity of those staves, their prices were going to raise regardless, they're just too rare, I mean c'mon who the hell gachs at Ellinia? and usually ppl buy them for 200k+ in the mts, i know many evans (not me) who have done that. The reason why they were "cheaper" before (less than 100k nx) is because nexon made the elemental boost 0% from an impresive 25% and 10% respectively before BB, thus people devaluated the items for a couple of months. Now if I met a BaM with an ele staff 5/8 who wouldnt sell it for 200k+ nx and then buy a duped ele staff 6/7 for 100k nx I understand them. I wouldn't do it neither. I couldnt replace mine for an empress staff even if my damage was going to be better.

This cliche sums up the situation with ele staves: "survival of the fittest". If a lot of people want the same item, the ones willing to pay the most will have the advantage. Its just common sense.
Oh and I just have one thing to say: I love my Elemental Staff 5 <3 <3<3 haha its the rarest staff in the game :] you jelly?

I really don't get why some people are so ticked off over what weapons some people use.
Battlemages are mages as well, just like any other original mages.
I purposely bought my estaff 3 for my I/L first, then I thought i could probably make a battlemage without having to make a new weapon, since my estaff is fast speed.
With all due respect, was it really battlemages' fault that estaves prices are so high?
The staves were rare to begin with, not to mention, AM's arent the only ones benefitting from the staves.
Sure, estaves were made for the original elemental mages, but it coincidentally benefits battlemages as well due to its attacking speed.
Honestly, who'd be dumb enough to spend money on a slow weapon in maple, when there're plenty of estaves in the market?
I just cant see why some people need to be so worked up and have to make a big deal out of what weapons some classes should and should not use.

Battle Mage with an Elestaff 5, I actually get rather pissed at.

Haven't seen one yet, but I rue the day that I do.