FAQ and common misconceptions about bandits
Maple story Forums : Bandit, Chief Bandit, Shadower : Talk about the Bandit, Chief Bandit and Shadower classes Page: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 ... [21]
Thread starter
By Kazegiri Here’s to answer most of the frequently asked questions about bandits I’ve seen lately on these boards. This FAQ is *not* meant to guide you in the game from A to Z, it is meant to answer any question you might have. If you do not find the answer to your question in here, either PM it to me or check the guides under the Useful Links section. For more info on Shadowers: link TABLE OF CONTENTS: Notice Updates Useful links Glossary Before starting a bandit 1) Is a bandit right for me? What are the pros and cons? 2) How am I supposed to add STR, DEX and LUK when I level and when I begin? 3) DEXless bandits, fandits, lowDEX bandits… what am I supposed to do to deal the very best damage I can? First Job - Rogue Recommended build 4) Disorder or Dark Sight? 5) Where can I train as a Rogue? Second Job - Bandit Recommended build 6) Savage Blow or Mastery first? 7) Endure? Steal? What do I do with the last 2nd job SP? 8) Does booster work with the Shinkita? What about the Kebob? 9) Where can I train as a Bandit? Third Job – Chief Bandit Recommended build 10) Where can I train as a low level Chief Bandit? 11) Are Chief Bandits weak? 12) What about STR Chief Bandits? (AKA what’s better, STR or LUK?) 13) All you need to know about Assaulter and BoT, AKA Assaulter or BoT first? 14) Where can I train with Assaulter? 15) Where can I train with BoT? 16) Meso Explosion: How do you drop mesos so fast for ME? How much do I have to drop? 17) Does Meso Guard drain your mesos? 18) Should I max BoT or leave it at 18? Other questions along the way 19) How much LUK equals 1 ATK? 20) Capping DEX 21) Which pots should I use? 22) Buying a LUK/DEX sauna, yes or no? 23) Is defence totally useless? 24) Making more money and losing less 25) Should I change my stat build? 26) Keyboard skills Notice Nothing for now XD Updates: December 20th Updated SB vs Mastery December 18th Added Recommended builds for all jobs Removed the build in BoT build December 13th Made a few changes now that I made a Shadower FAQ o_o November 12th Added quests and monsters under how to make money Re-added 4th job skills link Added Windraiders in BoT training grounds Added vid for directions to Typhons Edited “Are Chief Bandits weak” New BoT training ground indepth analysis Removed Gobies from BoT training ground (who’d train there anyway o_o) Other minor edits October 29th Edited the STR dit HT necklace paragraph Added Windraiders for training as a low level CB Added a rating to BoT training grounds Edited Keyboard skills Added a SG map for BoT training grounds October 5th Updated Wolfspiders Added Keyboard skills Edited 4th job book section (link dead) October 2nd Changed a few things about Typhons September 15th Added some info on LUK vs STR dits Added Typhons September 5th Added the Deputy Star and other new stuff where applicable June 28th Added a link to another training guide and edited the capping DEX part because of the new scrolls June 5th Re-edited Himes, reorganized the guide, added pros and cons of bandits June 4th Edited Himes May 12th Added something about stat builds May 5th Edited a few typos and added some things about STR/LUK/DEXless May 2nd Added a link section Apr 29th Added a build comparison and a “how much should I drop for ME” section Apr 23rd STR dits rejoice, new updated calculations with level 100 daggers and new sections about STR vs LUK! New glossary, updated Mastery vs SB, how to make money with quests. Since the FAQ is now too long, I had to start another thread 9_6 I never thought I would go this far lol :p Don’t worry, the links should still work between both threads, so you shouldn’t have to worry about where to look. Just click on the links in the Table of Contents. Apr 14th Defined lowDEX, DEXless, fandit; Few minor edits; Added section on max BoT or level 18 Apr 13th Compared lowDEX, DEXless, fandit Apr 3rd New rogue, bandit and 7X CB training grounds Mar 5th Two new BoT training grounds; Edited a few typos Feb 28th Added links to training guides for bandits; Added section about how to drop cash; Added section about last SP of a bandit Feb 22nd Added more tips for BoT training at Kentaurus; Divided the BoT or Assaulter section to make a BoT training grounds section; Added tips to avoid losing money; Added links to the ToC :x Feb 14th or so Updated STR CB/LUK CB section; Updated the BoT training grounds; Added a section about the LUK/ATK ratio Useful links: Credits go to the respective authors of these guides/sites Guides THE Bandit Training Spots GUIDE A guide that could give you more ideas as to where to train. Smartguy's Comprehensive Bandit Training Guide An up-to-date and extensive training guide. KoumoriSect's Chief Bandit guide Gives some info on 3rd job skills, builds and training places, but it’s not really up-to-date Thief FAQ A very short guide from 1st job to 3rd job PirateJing's STR Bandit Guide A step-by-step guide for unfunded STR bandits MPQ guide A guide to Ludi Maze PQ Others Compilation of Chief Bandit techniques and strategies A collaborative thread from all of Basil’s supah dit stars that’ll give you tips on how to play (including tips on bossing!) Hidden-Street Gives info on items, quests, monsters, jobs, etc. Thief Damage Ranges Here you can compare your damage range to the damage range of other thieves. Damage Calculator A very useful damage calculator Maple Global Maple Story’s main page (in case you forgot where to find it >_>) Glossary: If there’s a word or acronym you don’t understand, look here. If there’s some more words you don’t understand, just post or PM me so I can add them. Most of these probably won’t be useful to you though, but who knows. For more info on the skills, see link . For more info on other concepts, check the Table of Contents of the FAQ. 2S = Double Stab. Angelic Betrayal = Level 80 weapon for STR dits AP = ability points, you get 5 of those per level to put in STR, DEX, LUK or INT APQ = Amoria Party Quest AP Reset = Cash shop item used to reset one point from one stat to another Assaulter = 3rd job skill Assassinate = 4th job skill Band of Thieves = 3rd job skill Base DEX = The AP you have in DEX, not counting bonuses from item. Base STR = The AP you have in STR, not counting bonuses from item. Blood Dagger = Level 100 weapon for LUK dits Boomerang Step = 4th job skill Booster = Dagger Booster, 2nd job skill BoT = Band of Thieves Bushido = Level 55 weapon (requires STR but no DEX) BS = Boomerang Step CB = Chief Bandit, 3rd job of a bandit Capping = Not putting AP anymore in DEX and STR, and putting them all in LUK Chakra = 3rd job skill Cursayer = Level 90 weapon for STR dits Dark Sight = 1st job skill Deadly Fin = Level 60 weapon for LUK dits DEXless bandit = Bandit with 25 base DEX Diamond Dagger = Level 50 weapon (requires STR but no DEX) Disorder = 1st job skill Dit = abbreviation of “Bandit” Double Stab = 1st job skill. Some people call it 2S, others x2S, others DS. DS = Dark Sight. Can sometimes refer to Double Stab. DT = Dragon Tail, level 80 weapon for LUK dits Endure = 2nd job skill Fake = Other name of Shadow Shifter Fan = Level 65 weapon (requires STR and no DEX) Fandit = Bandit with 25 base DEX and 35 total STR in order to wear the Fan as last weapon FoG = The Forest of Golem ( link ) Gold Double Knife = Level 100 weapon for STR dits Golden River = Level 70 weapon for STR dits Haste = 2nd job skill Horntail Necklace = Necklace dropped by Horntail, hardest boss (lvl 120, +52 to all stats once scrolled) Kandine = Level 70 weapon for LUK dits Kebob = Level 75 weapon (does not require DEX) Keen Eyes = 1st job skill (used mostly by assassins) LMPQ = Ludibrium Maze Party Quest Low DEX bandit = A bandit who capped his DEX Lucky Seven = 1st job skill (used mostly by assassins) LUK dit = Bandit that did not add AP in STR Maple Wagner = Level 43 weapon (does not require DEX) Maple Warrior = 4th job skill Mastery = Dagger Mastery, 2nd job skill ME = Mesos Explosion Mesos Explosion = 3rd job skill Meso Guard = 3rd job skill MG = Meso Guard Nimble body = 1st job skill Ninja Ambush = 4th job skill Onyx Apple = Pot that gives +100 ATK for 10 minutes (available from APQ) Pickpocket = 3rd job skill Pot = Potions, recovery items used to recover HP or MP PP = Pickpocket PQ = Party Quest Sai = Level 50 weapon for STR dits Savage Blow = Savage Blow: Dagger, 2nd job skill Shadow Shifter = 4th job skill (other name = Fake) Shield Mastery = 3rd job skill Shinkita = Level 50 weapon for LUK dits Showdown = Other name of Taunt SB = Savage Blow Serpent’s Coil = Level 60 weapon for STR dits Sindit = Bandit that learned Assassin 1st job skills (Lucky Seven and Keen Eyes) Smokescreen = 4th job skill (other name = Smoke Shell) Smoke Shell = Other name of Smokescreen SP = Skill point, you get 3 of those per level to boost your skills Steal = 2nd job skill STR dit = Bandit that added AP in STR in order to wear equips that require STR Taunt = 4th job skill (other name = Showdown) Varkit = Level 90 weapon for LUK dits Venom = 4th job skill (other name = Venomous Stab) Venomous Stab = other name of Venom Warrior Elixirs = Pot that gives +12 ATK for 8 minutes (available in NLC) Zakum Helmet = Helm dropped by Zakum, one of the main bosses (level 50, +15 to all stats) Back to the table of contents No 1: Is a bandit right for me? What are the pros and cons? The easiest way to know if a bandit is right for you is to start by reading the list of cons of the job. If you don’t mind most of them, or if you think that the list of pros compensate for the cons, then go ahead and make a bandit! CONS -Since bandits are a melee class, there’s VERY few “safe” platforms where you can snipe the monsters without getting hit. Expect to use a lot of pots and to always stay alert. -After 4th job, bandits deal lower damage than most other jobs against a single, non-moving target (a boss for instance). For that reason, they are not easily accepted in boss runs. -During 3rd job, bandits can deal more damage than all other jobs against a single, non-moving target, but the only way they can do it is by blowing up tons of mesos for that. Otherwise, they deal rather low damage. -In order to train effectively from 3rd job on (and even more after 4th job), a bandit has to use a lot of different skills rather than spam a single one. In other words, a bandit’s gameplay is slightly more complicated than the gameplay of “spamming” jobs. -Equipment is rather expensive (though less than sins). PROS -From 2nd job on, you will always have max speed and jump. Combined with fast attack weapons and skills, your gameplay will always be fast and active. -Despite the lower damage of Chief Bandits and Shadowers, the speed and versatile attack skills lets you train very fast as long as you know how to use them. Getting 15% an hour at level 110 solo without double EXP is very possible. -The Savage Blow 2nd job skill lets you train very fast during 2nd job. -While most other jobs suffer hell from level 70 to 80, with enough cash to spare, a Chief bandit can zip through those levels in very little time, thanks to Meso Explosion. -Before level 75, a Chief bandit can solo most minor bosses (Crimson Balrogs, Geist Balrog, Jr. Balrog, Blue Mushmom, Manon, Griffey, Headless Horseman, Ergoth) in an instant with Meso Explosion. It’s also very possible (though quite longer) without Meso Explosion. -Bandits have the most avoidability of all jobs (tied with Assassins from 1st to 3rd job, but a LOT better than Assassins during 4th job). It’s pretty nice seeing monsters miss you 15 times in a row. Back to the table of contents No 2: How am I supposed to add STR, DEX and LUK when I level and when I begin? When you first create your character and you intend him to be a LUK bandit, you should aim for the following stats: STR: 4 DEX: any INT: 4 LUK: any If you intend to be a STR bandit, you should aim for the following stats: STR: any (preferably as low as possible) DEX: any INT: 4 LUK: any You may not be able to get a 4 in STR and INT on the first try, it may take you quite a long while… but don’t sweat it, even if you can get only 4 and 5. A lot of people don’t have the patience to get a 4/4 (myself included, I have 5 in STR). Between STR, DEX and LUK, DEX is your highest priority when you start, even if you’re a STR bandit. Why? - Because DEX improves your damage as a beginner (unlike LUK). - Because even as a STR bandit, you will not need STR before level 20, and even at level 20, you only need 10 STR. - Because anyway you need 25 DEX in order to become a Rogue. As a Beginner, your priority is to get your DEX at 25 as soon as possible. As soon as your DEX reaches 25, put all your points in LUK, even if you’re going to be a STR bandit. Make sure you do not put any AP in ANYTHING ELSE than LUK and DEX or it’ll be a waste. If you’re going the STR bandit way, points in STR are not wasted eternally, but they’re still a waste until level 20. Keep in mind that as soon as you become a Rogue, LUK is going to be the stat that increases your damage the most (and DEX and STR both increases it a little, while INT doesn’t do anything). Now when you become a Rogue, you might want to think about A) Capping your DEX (see 20) Capping DEX ). Though it might be a bit early to think about capping your DEX already, it’s always good to plan ahead. B) Becoming DEXless (see 3) DEXless bandits, fandits, lowDEX bandits… what am I supposed to do to deal the very best damage I can? ) If you’re not going to be DEXless, your aim is to get DEX roughly equal to twice your level in order to wear the new clothes. What I suggest is to always wait until the last moment before you add DEX. For example: You are level 15. You have 30 DEX. Your next weapon (at level 17) requires 35 DEX. Make you sure that when you reach level 16, you add 5 LUK. When you reach level 17, add 5 DEX to wear the weapon. Since LUK increases your damage more than DEX, it’s better to get the damage increase earlier, and boost your DEX at the last moment. As soon as you reach level 40, you will now need only 40 DEX more than your level in order to wear equips. In other words, for level 50 equips, you need 90 DEX. For level 60 equips, you need 100 DEX, etc. Once again, make sure you add the DEX at the last moment. From level 41 to 48, add 5 LUK. Then, at level 49 and 50, add 5 DEX. Always keep on eye on the requirements of your next equips! If you are a STR bandit, you will need a STR equal to your level minus 10, up to level 60. After level 50, you will only need to add 5 STR per 10 levels (55 STR at level 70, 60 STR at level 80, 65 STR at level 90, etc.). Same thing than for DEX: keep your STR as low as possible until you really need to boost it. Back to the table of contents No 3: DEXless bandits, fandits, lowDEX bandits… what am I supposed to do to deal the very best damage I can? Let’s start with a few definitions to clarify it all. A DEXless bandit is a bandit with 25 base DEX and 4 base STR (or more STR if your character didn’t start with 4 in STR). DEXless bandits can only equip items that do not require DEX. Typical DEXless equips: Weapon: Korean Fan, Maple Wagner, Kebob, Maple Dark Mate, Maple Asura Dagger Armor: Sauna Robe Hat: Bamboo Hat, Zakum Helm Gloves: Work Gloves, Stormcaster gloves Shoes: Black Snowshoes (also called BSS), Facestompers A fandit is a bandit with 25 DEX and 35 total STR (equips + base STR). Fandits cannot wear items that require DEX either, but they can wear some more weapons than DEXless bandits (they can wear the fan, hence the name “fandit”). Typical fandit equips: Weapon: Korean Fan, Maple Wagner, Bushido, Diamond Dagger, Fan Armor: Sauna Robe Hat: Bamboo Hat, Zakum Helm Gloves: Work Gloves, Stormcaster gloves Shoes: Black Snowshoes (also called BSS), Facestompers A lowDEX bandit is a regular bandit who uses the DEX from equips in order to wear the highest level clothes and weapons possible. Bandits should always cap their DEX in order to get as much LUK as possible (see 20) Capping DEX ). Both STR bandits and LUK bandits can be low DEX. STR bandits can also be low STR (and they thus cap their DEX and their STR). Typical lowDEX equips: Weapon: Any dagger, usually level 80+ Armor: Any clothes, usually level 80+ Hat: Any hat, Zakum helm Gloves: Work Gloves, Stormcaster gloves or thief gloves Shoes: Black Snowshoes (also called BSS), Facestompers or thief shoes In order to deal the best damage you can with your funds, you will have to start as a DEXless bandit. 4 STR, 25 DEX, 4 INT, the rest in LUK. When you get to level 35 (where you can get a Korean fan) and then to level 43 (where you can get a Maple Wagner), you should outdamage your lowDEX and normal DEX counterparts by a LOT. As levels increase, however, the difference will start to get lower. Your next weapon will either be a fan (level 65, 35 STR required) or a level 64 Maple Dagger (preferably a Maple Asura Dagger, no stats required). Whatever your choice is, this weapon will last you until you come out of DEXlessness. If you choose a fan, make sure you add enough AP in STR to be able to wear them (see following example). You can also wear a Diamond Dagger (level 50, 8 STR required) and a Bushido (level 55, 30 STR required) while waiting for the fan, if you can find a good one. Why am I not talking about wearing a Kebob? Well even with its nice attack boost, it’s not recommended, simply because it is slower than other daggers (see 8) Does booster work with the Shinkita? What about the Kebob? ). Now, when exactly will you have to become lowDEX in order to deal your very best damage? To say the truth, it depends a lot on funding. If you can get incredible DEXless equips, you may stay DEXless for quite a while. However, let’s make an example with a well funded fandit (calculations confirmed by sefen, thanks) Let’s say a level 90 fandit has the following equips and stats: 14 STR (+21 from equips), 25 DEX (+29 from equips), 4 INT, 432 LUK (+57 from equips) 10 ATK 5 STR Maple Shield 13 ATK Stormcaster Gloves 15/15/15/15 Zakum helm 99 ATK 9 LUK Fan 1/1/1/2 Pendant 23 LUK Sauna 2 ATK 3 DEX Facestompers 2 ATK 8 LUK cape 10 DEX earrings A DEXless with a Maple Asura Dagger would be slightly better than the above fandit (1 ATK less, 10 LUK more), but the difference isn’t big enough to make more calculations A level 90 lowDEX LUK bandit with the same funding should have the following equips and stats : 4 STR (+21 from equips), 87 DEX (+43 from equips), 4 INT, 380 LUK (+51 from equips) 10 ATK 5 STR Maple Shield 13 ATK Stormcaster Gloves 15/15/15/15 Zakum helm 107 ATK 9 LUK Varkit 1/1/1/2 Pendant 17 LUK 1 DEX top 13 DEX 3 LUK bottom 2 ATK 3 DEX Facestompers 2 ATK 8 LUK cape 10 DEX earrings At level 90, the fandit would have a damage range of: 1309-2330 (avg. 1819.5) At level 90, the lowDEX LUK bandit would have a damage range of: 1330-2286 (avg. 1808) At level 90, the Fandit still outdamages the lowDEX LUK bandit, but only slightly. Let’s see what happens at level 100 (so both with 50 LUK more, providing the lowDEX LUK doesn’t get a blood dagger). At level 100, the fandit would have a damage range of: 1432-2557 (avg. 1994.5) At level 100, the lowDEX LUK bandit would have a damage range of: 1460-2528 (avg. 1994) From this you can see that at level 100, a lowDEX LUK bandit would have almost exactly the same average damage than a fandit with the aforementioned equips. With levels, though, the lowDEX LUK bandit will become stronger than a fandit. If you are not that well funded, equally funded lowDEX bandits may start to outdamage you at level 90 or so. If you are better funded, you may still beat them until level 105 or so. If you are MUCH better funded, maybe even up until level 120. You might also want to note that I didn’t take ATK pots into account. A DEXless bandit or Fandit gets a bigger damage bonus from ATK pots than a lowDEX bandit. If you’re training with Apples, you might want to stick to DEXless for a while still. Even if you’re training with Warrior elixirs, you might want to wait 5 more levels before changing. Once you get to the point where you do not outdamage lowDEX anymore, you will have to switch to lowDEX if you want to keep dealing the best damage possible. Since you need 87 base DEX for the above example, expect to deal less damage than the equally funded lowDEX bandits for the next 10 levels. Once you get the DEX you need though, you will be back on top. And if you added some AP in STR, you might want to AP reset them. Now that you’re lowDEX, stay like that til the end! If your funds increase and if you can get a Horntail necklace, you’ll probably want to switch to a lowDEX lowSTR bandit for a Khanjar and a level 100+ weapon. If you don’t, stay lowDEX LUK. If you intend to make it to level 120 but you want to start as lowDEX since, in the end, you’ll come back to that build, you could: 1) Start as DEXless 2) At level 50, start adding DEX in order to wear a Deadly Fin (you may have to start earlier than level 50 if your equips won’t give you enough DEX). 3) Wear the Deadly Fin at level 60 and increase your base DEX in order to wear the Kandine (optional), Dragon Tail and Varkit. You will deal less damage than DEXless dits from level 50 to 100, but you will not have to go through the whole shenanigan of changing build three times. Back to the table of contents Recommended build: Rogue 1) Max Double Stab 2) Get 18 in Nimble Body 3) Get 3 in Disorder 4) Max Dark Sight Explanation: It’s all pretty straightforward. Max your attack first, then boost your avoid and accuracy to reduce pot cost and attack higher level monsters (you’ll max Nimble Body in 2nd job). Finish it with max Dark Sight so you can combine it with Haste during 2nd job. For more info, check the other Rogue parts of the FAQ or PM me :p Back to the table of contents No 4: Disorder or Dark Sight? Dark Sight is much, much, much more useful. When it’s maxed, it does not lower your speed and it can thus be combined with haste. It's also quite useful for dropping mesos during boss runs and for Assassinate in 4th job (which requires of you to stay in Dark Sight in order to charge the skill). On the other hand, Disorder is only useful to get monsters to stop attacking you – the defence and attack penalty doesn’t change much. However, Disorder can stop monsters attacking you even when it is only level 1. There’s no point in boosting it. If you’ve chosen Disorder already, don’t despair, you get a few absolutely worthless SP in 3rd job you’ll be able to use for Dark Sight (instead of Chakra or Shield Mastery), even though it kinda sucks to use 3rd job SP on a first job skill. If you want (thanks iamfunny for reminding me), you can also take some 2nd job SP to max Dark Sight. Steal and Endure can be fun/slightly useful, but you’re better off with Dark Sight than either of those. Back to the table of contents No 5: Where should I be training as a Rogue? So many new places have appeared and so much time has passed since I was a Rogue that I cannot really tell you ALL of the best training spots. However, here’s a training guides that might help you more: link What I would personally do: Go to Pig Beach ( link ) first, then go to the secret Octopus map left of Kerning ( link ) once Pig Beach gets slow. Great spawn, weak monsters, great EXP. Back to the table of contents Recommended build: Bandit If you did not follow the Recommended build for Rogues, your build might be a little different, but you should get the picture. 1) Get 19 in Mastery 2) Get 11 in Savage Blow 3) Get 3 in Booster 4) Max Savage Blow 5) Max Haste 6) Max Booster 7) Max Endure 8) Max Nimble Body (1st job) 9) Get 1 in Steal 10) Get 8 in Keen Eyes (1st job) 11) Max Mastery Explanation: Start with Mastery to improve your damage and accuracy without increasing pot costs. Continue with your new main attack and add some Booster in the middle (when SB reaches 5 hits) for added speed. Finish your attack, then boost your speed with Haste, max Booster so you don’t need to recast it. Then max Endure to recover more MP, finish Nimble Body in first job for the avoid and accuracy boost, get a tiny bit of Steal and finish with Keen Eyes, which will let you take the place of ranged character in GPQ (or any other PQ that could require it). Finish with one last point in Mastery to get more accuracy in order to go earlier to the best training grounds. For more info, check the other Bandit parts of the FAQ or PM me :p Back to the table of contents No 6: Savage Blow or Mastery first? Here’s a few facts about Savage Blow (SB), Double Stab (2S) and Mastery that may help you decide. If you want my opinion, see “What I recommend” below. NB: This is up to date with SB’s new damage changes (4 hits at level 1, 5 hits at level 11) and DS’s new damage changes (2x 140% rather than 130%) Effect You might be tired of 2S for now, and SB is a whole new skill, much better looking than the old 2S. Mastery is a passive skill, in other words you do not have to activate it for it to work. Mastery increases your minimum damage by 5% every 2 level of Mastery, up to 60% when it is level 19 or maxed. If you learn Mastery first, though, you will have to keep on using 2S for quite a few more levels. Oh and just in case you’re wondering, the Chinese letters that appear when you use Savage Blow are supposed to mean “Strike the sky until it bleeds, KILL”. Damage Maxed SB without Mastery deals around 115% of the damage of 2S with Mastery (and level 21 SB deals around 105% of the damage of 2S with Mastery) without counting the monsters’ defence, which is multiplied by 6 for SB (since each hit takes defence into account) and by 2 for 2S. Because of monster defence, if you do not have good equips, your maxed SB could be weaker than 2S (while level 21 SB will most probably be weaker than 2S in all cases). SB is NOT a great damage improvement until you get Mastery. Range SB’s range is much better than 2S. While 2S can only strike monsters directly in front of you, SB has a good chance of hitting monsters above and below you. If you jump and attack with SB, you have a much better chance of hitting the monster than if you jump and attack with 2S. However, 2S can strike a tiny bit further in front of you than SB. Speed 2S is quite faster than SB, especially without Dagger Booster. Even with Dagger Booster, 2S is about 20% faster than SB. Knock Back Most lower level monsters are knocked back whenever they’re hit. These monsters will be knocked back 6 times if you hit them with SB, rather than twice if you hit them with 2S. At this level usually, the more a monster is knocked back, the least he’s likely to hit you. However, the least you’re likely to chain attacks on him. Note that when you fight monsters that need a certain amount of damage to be knocked back, since each hit of 2S is stronger than each hit of SB, you’re more likely to knock back the enemy with 2S than with SB. MP cost SB costs about twice more MP than 2S. Effect at lower skill levels Mastery is progressively useful. In other words, even with 3 SP in it, it still improves your damage. SB, on the other hand, is absolutely useless before it is level 15 or so (it will still deal less damage than Double Stab if you do not have Mastery), and it will only deal visibly higher damage than Double Stab when it’s level 27 or so. Time needed to max the skills Mastery is maxed (well, not maxed, it reaches level 19 rather, since you don’t need to put it at level 20) at level 36 if you put your first SP in it, that’s four levels before you would’ve maxed SB if you had started with SB instead (level 40). In other words, you could have 19 mastery AND 12 SB by the time the other build has maxed SB. What I recommend If you’re not funded, i.e. if you do not have good equips and lots of cash for pots, there’s no doubt that you should go Mastery first. You will deal more damage and you will use less pots. If you’re funded, I’d still recommend that you go with Mastery first, UNLESS you really can’t stand using Double Stab longer. In that case, go with Savage Blow up to level 21, then get Mastery to level 19 before maxing SB. If you’re going the sindit way, you should start with 21 SB, then 19 Mastery. Back to the table of contents No 7: Endure? Steal? What do I do with the last 2nd job SP? Before adding SP in either Endure or Steal, make sure that Savage Blow, Booster, Haste and Dark Sight are maxed, and that Mastery is at 19. Those are all the essential skills. Having maxed Nimble Body (1st job) might also be a good idea. With the SP you have left, you can really do whatever you want, it will not affect you much. I would recommend adding at least 1 in Steal and the rest in Endure: it’s always nice to have a little bit of all skills, and the MP regeneration of Endure can save you some pots (it is ALWAYS active, not only on a ladder). Don’t forget that whenever you sit on a chair or bench, your MP regeneration is multiplied by 150%: if you have Endure, you’ll recover 37 mp while sitting, compared to 4 mp if you don’t have the skill. You could also have fun learning Lucky Seven and Keen Eyes if you want – it could always be useful if you need long range in a PQ. However, as I first said, those SP are not really that useful in any way. Do what you wish with them! If you’re wondering why you shouldn’t bother with steal, here’s a few reasons: 1) Even when maxed (with a whopping 30 SP), steal only has 40% chance to work 2) If you get a drop with Steal, once you kill the monster, it will not drop the same thing again (so you’re better off killing the monster) 3) Steal doesn't work against bosses 4) More than 60% of the time, if steal works, it will only make the monster drop a few mesos (usually less than 100). And since Steal can only work once against a particular monster, you can’t expect better. Back to the table of contents No 8: Does booster work with the Shinkita? What about the Kebob? Booster DOES work with the Shinkita. However, it seems that even with Booster, Shinkitas are still a bit slower than other daggers. As for Kebobs, it seems that they are just as fast than Shinkitas, i.e. slower than other daggers. Back to the table of contents No 9: Where should I be training as a Bandit? So many new places have appeared and so much time has passed since I was a Bandit that I cannot really tell you ALL of the best training spots. However, here’s a training guides that might help you more: link What I would personally do: Try Monster Carnival with friends so you can keep your coins, avoid losing too often and having great fun (with the very best EXP possible) up to level 50 (which would get you possibly a few necklaces which you could keep/sell). Then, after level 50 try Ludi Maze PQ up to level 70 (great EXP, great stable cash). Whenever you get tired of PQing, you could also try training at STDs ( link ), Coolies ( link ), Samihos ( link make sure you learn the shortcuts on the map, very useful), FoG ( link ), Gryphons ( link ), Voodoos ( link or link ), Windraiders ( link ) and Selkie Jr. ( link ). Back to the table of contents Recommended build: Chief Bandit If you did not follow the Recommended build for Rogues and Bandits, your build might be a little different, but you should get the picture. 0) ONLY if you intend to train with Meso Explosion: Get 1 in Meso Explosion 1) Get 1 in Assaulter 2) Get 18 in BoT 3) Get 3 in Chakra 4) Get 1 in Meso Guard 5) Max BoT 6) Max Meso Guard 7) Max Assaulter 8) Max Meso Explosion 9) Get 11 in Pickpocket 10) Max Chakra Explanation: Start with 1 in Meso Explosion if you intend to train with it, otherwise start with 1 in Assaulter for mobility. Start maxing BoT, your main EXP maker, and learn Chakra for Meso Guard when it’s time to move to stronger monsters. Finish maxing your BoT, then max Meso Guard so you save more cash and recast it less often. Max Assaulter to deal more damage during your move, then max Meso Explosion for bosses or other situations where you might need it. Get some SP in Pickpocket in order to mark your territory and play around, and finish with Chakra in case you run out of pots at 99.95% and you really don’t want to go back to town before levelling. For more info, check the other Chief Bandit parts of the FAQ or PM me :p Back to the table of contents No 10: Where should I be training as a low level Chief Bandit? So you finally made it to CB, but your new skills aren’t powerful yet. Where are you supposed to train now? If you’re funded and you’re in a hurry to level, put your first SP in Meso Explosion so you can go train at Gobies ( link ). Bomb the houses with ME (see 16) Meso Explosion: How do you drop mesos so fast for ME? How much do I have to drop? ) using the fast-money-drop trick to get the fastest EXP available to you right now. You might want to check out this table to see just how much cash you’ll have to explode to get to whatever level you want to be (credits goes to the table’s author, whoever s/he is). If you’re not into that whole waste-your-money-so-you-get-more-EXP kind of thing, I’d suggest you stick to the same spots you were training at before level 70. Depending on your equips and playing style, you might want to try STDs ( link ), Coolies ( link ), Samihos ( link make sure you learn the shortcuts on the map, very useful) FoG ( link ), Gryphons ( link ), Voodoos ( link or link ), Windraiders ( link ) and Selkie Jr. ( link ). You can also take a look at the following training guide : link Back to the table of contents No 11: Are Chief Bandits weak? CBs do not deal the highest numbers (except with Meso Explosion, which I do not include for obvious reasons). However, the jobs cannot be compared only in terms of raw damage. If you want to compare jobs, you can do so in terms of EXP earned. At level 85, CBs can earn around 40% an hour solo without double EXP (and without Onyx Apples) and without wasting any cash (18% at level 11X but with cash loss). I’m pretty sure that all other jobs would not get a lot more EXP solo. In other words, what we lack in raw numbers, we make up with moving speed, attacking speed and attack versatility, which help speed up training in their own way. Oh and we can deal around 10k with Assaulter at level 8x, so we're not that weak even in numbers  Back to the table of contents No 12: What about STR Chief Bandits? (AKA what’s better, STR or LUK?) Most people make STR CBs because of the Khanjar, to be "unique", for cheap daggers, or because they like STR daggers. If you play for the highest possible damage, though, STR CBs are not for you, UNLESS you’re funded enough to get a Dragon Khanjar and a good Gold Double Knife or Cursayer. With those, STR dits can become as strong as (and even stronger than) LUK dits (by which I mean stronger/as strong as a LUK dit with equal funding). But that's pretty much the only way they can. Here’s a few calculations to prove what I say. I did those some time ago, when I had thought of becoming a STR CB myself (after seeing a 113 Cursayer on Basil). I found out, however, that even that Cursayer would not have made me stronger if I had to become a STR dit. I know this topic is very controversial, and I’m still looking for evidence to disprove what seems to me to be the truth. If you can help me getting to another conclusion, I’ll gladly listen to what you have to say. OK, here we go. The main reason why a STR CB usually deals less damage than a LUK CB is because they have to spend AP in STR in order to wear their daggers. Sure, their daggers have slightly higher ATK (2 more than LUK daggers), but those 2 points in ATK do not compensate for the STR they need. Even if STR daggers are cheaper, since LUK is equal to 3.6 STR, for each 10 points of STR you have, you’re basically losing 6.4 LUK which, according to your level, could be worth 1 or 2 ATK (see 19) How much LUK equals 1 ATK? ). However, STR CBs now have shields, the Khanjar and Dragon Khanjar, that give them a very high ATK bonus. The Khanjar, with its 7 ATK, is good, but not enough to compensate. The Dragon Khanjar, though, gives a whopping 15 ATK. Let’s see if that 15 ATK is enough to make up for the damage lost. Here’s two level 120 Shadowers, one STR and one LUK, with equal funding (or what would seem equal to me). STR Shadower 55 STR (+24 from equips, but 4 from the Shield that cannot be used), 103 DEX (+47 from equips), 4 INT, 463 LUK (+54 from equips) 23 ATK 4 STR 2 LUK Dragon Khanjar (averagely scrolled with 60%) 13 ATK Stormcaster Gloves 15/15/15/15 Zakum helm 115 ATK 10 LUK Gold Double Knife 5/5/5/5 Deputy Star 17 LUK 1 DEX top 13 DEX 3 LUK bottom 2 ATK 3 DEX Facestompers 2 ATK 8 LUK cape 10 DEX earrings LUK Shadower 4 STR (+30 from equips), 83 DEX (+47 from equips), 4 INT, 534 LUK (+54 from equips) 18 ATK 9 STR Maple Shield 13 ATK Stormcaster Gloves 15/15/15/15 Zakum helm 108 ATK 9 LUK Varkit 5/5/5/5 Deputy Star 17 LUK 1 DEX top 13 DEX 3 LUK bottom 2 ATK 3 DEX Facestompers 2 ATK 8 LUK cape 10 DEX earrings With these equips, the STR Shadower would have a damage range of 1912-3239 (average of 2575.5). The LUK Shadower would have a damage range of 1869-3261 (average of 2565) As you can see, as long as a STR bandit has enough cash to buy a Dragon Khanjar and a very good level 100 dagger, he will be able to outdamage an equally funded LUK bandit. HOWEVER! Note that this is WITHOUT an attack potion. With a warrior elixir (12 ATK pot), ranges become: For the STR Shadower: 2060-3490 (avg. 2775) For the LUK Shadower: 2025-3535 (avg. 2780) The STR Shadower will still need to wait a few levels before dealing more damage than a LUK Shadower. Another variation (without taking attack pots into account): If you replace the Gold Double Knife with a Cursayer (let’s say 112/9), the damage range becomes 1872-3171 (average of 2521.5), in other words, lower than the LUK bandit. With a Dragon Khanjar and a Cursayer, the STR bandit would catch up in damage with the LUK bandit at around level 155 (and a bit later if you count attack pots). When level 110 daggers will be more common The STR CB and LUK CB comparison is as of now. We barely have any level 110 STR daggers, and those that we do are far from as strong as the best of Cursayers/Gold double knives (to the extent of my knowledge). However, when we do get better level 110 STR daggers, a STR CB will be able to wear his Dragon Khanjar without adding any DEX. In this case, they will easily deal more damage after level 120 than a LUK CB. But you will still need the Dragon Khanjar. The “STR daggers are cheaper” issue Yes, STR daggers are cheaper. However, all STR CBs that want to deal the same damage or more than a LUK CB will have to spend MORE than a LUK CB. The Dragon Khanjar costs a fortune and, as stated above, it’s pretty much essential if you want to deal more than a LUK CB. Let’s say you spend 500 mil on a cheap clean Dragon Khanjar. That’s 500mil the LUK CB would have to improve his own equips. If you can’t afford a Khanjar and you still want to deal more than LUK CBs, that means that you will have to get an insane Cursayer or Gold Double Knife. Further example: a lot of STR CBs say “a 100 ATK Angelic Betrayal is a lot cheaper than a 100 ATK Dragon Tail, so STR CBs will have more cash to buy better other equips”. However, you have to consider that a 95 ATK DT will be stronger than a 100 ATK Angelic Betrayal, and probably just as cheap (or cheaper). Going low STR Of course, going low DEX or low STR is always a good idea. However, except for a Zakum Helm and Deputy Star/Spiegelmann Necklace (which I've included in my calculations), which give respectively 15/5/1 stats to STR, LUK and DEX, there are NO equips that benefit only a STR CB. All the equips you could scroll for STR you can scroll for LUK. The only exception is your shield: if you scroll it with ATK, you will get a small STR boost. But then again, if you intend on scrolling a Dragon Khanjar with ATK, you will not be able to benefit from the small STR boost, since the shield itself is the equip that needs the most STR you will have to wear. Dagger speed It has been proven that except for the Shinkita and the Kebob, all daggers, whether STR or LUK, have exactly the same speed with Booster. Those marked as “faster” are not any faster than the daggers marked as “fast”. The Shinkita and Kebob are slower for some unknown reason. The Horntail Necklace The Horntail Necklace adds 52 to all stats when it’s fully scrolled (22 to all stats for now in GMS). Once a Shadower gets his hands on one (or rather when the last two upgrades of the Horntail necklace will be possible), and providing he has a Zakum Helm (that shouldn’t be too hard), he will get a 67 STR bonus from only those two equips. In other words, even a Shadower with 4 base STR will be able to wear a Dragon Khanjar and a level 110 STR dagger if he can get 4 STR on other equips (cape for instance). The Horntail Necklace is a much bigger advantage to LUK dits though, since they can now become STRless STR dits. STR dits will get 52 (or 22 since that’s the highest HT pendants can reach for now in GMS) wasted points of STR, unless they use AP resets. Maple Warrior It is possible for Shadowers to use the skill Maple Warrior (4th job, adds 10% to STR, DEX and LUK when maxed) in order to boost their stats to wear higher level equips. STR Shadowers benefit of this more than LUK Shadowers, since they have 3 active stats (STR, DEX and LUK) rather than 2 (DEX and LUK). If they use Maple Warrior to wear a Dragon Khanjar for instance, they can get free STR and DEX and, consequently, more LUK. If it’s not for a Dragon Khanjar, they might need to use AP resets to lower STR and DEX in order to benefit from Maple Warrior as much as possible (like LUK bandits would for their DEX). Note that using Maple Warrior in order to wear equips is not always a good idea, especially if you boss often. A single dispel and your weapon is gone (until you recast it of course). Attack pots and skills As you may have seen in the comparison above, when you get an ATK bonus, the damage increase will depend on your LUK total. Since LUK bandits have more LUK than STR bandits, when they take pots that increase ATK (Onyx apples, Warrior elixirs, Warrior pills…) or when they’re affected by ATK increasing skills (Rage), LUK bandits get a bigger damage bonus than STR bandits. Note that the damage difference really isn’t that big (probably only very noticeable with Onyx Apples), but still enough to have a better range than STR bandits at the first 4th job levels. Stable damage? Even though people think that STR CBs have "stable damage", that's not exactly true. For both types of dits, the minimum damage will be roughly equal to 60%. For STR bandits, it’s usually 2% more stable than for LUK dits. In the above example for instance : The LUK Shadower had a range of 1843-3219. His min is equal to 57.2% of his max. The STR Shadower had a range of 1885-3189. His min is equal to 59.1% of his max. Why isn’t the minimum damage always equal to 60% of the maximum, even if mastery is 60%? Why is the minimum of STR bandits higher? Because there’s another factor in the equation that gives them slightly higher min damage (thanks Azuresting for the details): Formulas for thief damage: Maximum Damage = [(LUK * 3.6 + STR + DEX) / 100] * Weapon Attack Minimum Damage = [(LUK * 0.9 * 3.6 * Skill Mastery + STR + DEX) / 100] * Weapon Attack As you can see in the formula, only LUK is multiplied by Mastery. In other words, STR and DEX both add just as much to your maximum and minimum damage, while LUK will add more damage to the maximum than to the minimum. However, because of the 3.6 factor, LUK STILL adds more to minimum damage than either STR or DEX. In other words, the higher your STR and the higher your DEX, the more stable your damage will be. However, the higher your STR and the higher your DEX, the lower your overall damage will be (if these STR and DEX points replace LUK points). If you made a LUKless bandit (as has been done before), your damage range would be incredibly stable (and incredibly low)… even if you had 0 points in Mastery. However, with the little points we have in STR and DEX compared to LUK, the stability difference isn’t even noticeable. Back to the table of contents No 13: All you need to know about Assaulter and BoT, AKA Assaulter or BoT first? I personally went Assaulter first, and I now realize why going BoT first is much better. I have yet to see a good training place where you can get better EXP with Assaulter than with BoT. Maple is a game where you get the most of your EXP by either mobbing, or one hit KOing the monsters. After level 80 or so, there are NO monsters you can one hit KO that give decent EXP. Mobbing is the way to go. But you have to know how to do it. How to train with Assaulter and BoT BoT is relatively trickier to use than Assaulter. Assaulter is simple enough: There’s a monster in front of you. You press the button. Attack. Turn around and repeat until the monster dies. You can play with Assaulter’s range in order to get hit less, getting close to the monster at first, then zooming from side to side. In all cases, the monster dies and you get the EXP. Now with BoT, if you do that, you won’t get decent EXP since you have to hit multiple monsters to use the skill to its maximum potential. With BoT, you cannot just “attack away” and hope the monsters come close to you. You have to GO AND GET THEM. This is VERY important. Move around the floor of a map. Hit all monsters ONCE and bring them all in a corner. Once they’re all there, your BoT will CONSTANTLY deal its maximum of 1260% (6 times 210 %). That’s almost three times as much as Assaulter. And you know what? It’s also a lot faster than Assaulter. Expect dealing around five times as much damage over time as you’d deal with Assaulter. Another thing. If you haven’t noticed it by yourself, when you use BoT, the monsters are knocked back IN THE DIRECTION YOU FACE. Yes, even those behind you. This is very important since your objective with BoT is to make the mob tight enough so you always have 6 targets in the limited range. By hitting the monsters left of the mob while facing right, you’ll make your mob more compact. Same thing if you hit the monsters right of the mob while facing left. The good and the bad of Assaulter and BoT Pros of Assaulter: -Easy to train with -Helps to move around -Ignores the monster’s defence (ONLY if your level is higher than the level of the monster you attack) -Can hit monsters on a ledge slightly above you, helping you avoid attacks and save pots -Will not activate unless there’s a monster in range (making sure you won’t use the skill for nothing) -Can stun monsters very frequently (80% of the time) when maxed, helping you avoid attacks and save pots -Very flashy animation :p Cons of Assaulter: -Lower damage than SB against monsters with barely any defence -Slower than SB, thus might take you more time to defeat most monsters than if you use SB (though using SB will make you waste quite a lot more pots) -Assaulter launches you forward, which might not be a good idea against bosses and very large/strong monsters -Not very useful for training before it’s level 20+ (except for the teleport effect) Pros of BoT: -If you can get 3 monsters or more in range, deals more damage in a single attack than all of your other skills -Very fast – by the time you use Assaulter, you could’ve used BoT twice -Your only skill able to hit more than one monster up to level 120, and still a very useful mob move after 4th job -Lets you get better EXP than all other skills except ME if you use it well – for much cheaper than ME Cons of BoT: -Might take some getting used to -Requires you to jump head on in the mobs in order to be efficient (lets you get hit quite a lot) -If you’re not using supreme pizzas, can cost you quite a lot of MP. -Not very useful before it’s level 12 -First hit has to strike an enemy next to you (just like a normal attack) -Range is not very large Back to the table of contents No 14: Where can I train with Assaulter? Once you’re past level 80, if you went with the Assaulter build, you’ll start thinking that OHKO isn’t really good EXP anymore. With the Assaulter build, you can pretty much kill any monster, but since it’s one on one, it’s hard to get good EXP. Gobies is always a good place: Assaulter the house, ME the gobies. DTs are supposed to be good, but I always thought it very slow, and the perspective of getting 0 good drops isn’t really appealing. A very good alternative is Vikings. The EXP isn’t as good as gobies, but you barely have to use any pots AND you could get Ilbis! And it might provide you a break from your dozens of levels at Gobies too. Follow the following guide to know how to train at Vikings: HQ: link LQ: link Back to the table of contents Next sections in the other thread, go back to the Table of Contents and it will direct you there. Replies
Kazegiri said: " That's exactly it, you have to go the other way around. There's 85% chance the shield doesn't blow up, so you have to calculate what chance there is that this 85% happens 10 times (or 7 times) in a row." Following binomial distribution, a Maple shield in this scenario has about 20% chance of success (not blowing up). A D.Khanjar has 32% chance of not blowing up. As all chance combined becomes 1, 1-chance of success = chance of failure. Therefore, Maple shield: 80% chance of destruction D.Khanjar: 68% chance of destruction. That's a pretty small gap, honestly. I wouldn't even think of scrolling a D.Khanjar with a dark scroll. Wouldn't think of it with the maple shield either, if you couldn't buy 5 clean ones for 1 D.Khanjar. New Blog: So.... Yeah
Mejust said: " Following binomial distribution, a Maple shield in this scenario has about 20% chance of success (not blowing up). A D.Khanjar has 32% chance of not blowing up. As all chance combined becomes 1, 1-chance of success = chance of failure. Therefore, Maple shield: 80% chance of destruction D.Khanjar: 68% chance of destruction. That's a pretty small gap, honestly. I wouldn't even think of scrolling a D.Khanjar with a dark scroll. Wouldn't think of it with the maple shield either, if you couldn't buy 5 clean ones for 1 D.Khanjar." Isn't that exactly what I said earlier? :p But the gap isn't that small, loads of funded people spend millions on a chance even slimmer. The reason why using 70% on a D.Khanjar isn't a good idea isn't because it's most probably bound to explode, it's because if it DOES explode, you'll have a heck of a time trying to find another one (and if you do, you'll spend a lot more cash to buy one). Which all comes back to the same thing really, would someone who has enough cash for only one Dragon Khanjar and a few shield ATK scrolls really risk it all with 70%?
lmVindictive said: "I suggest we continue this after the deflation has occured, could change a lot of factors. Considering the regular khanjar is nearly npc price(sarcasm) it's bound to have an impact on the dragon khanjar's price as well. There will be a lot more 20att+ khanjrs which may cause someone to not even think about buying a dragon one especially if it involves adding 20 more dex and 15 more str." Let me remind you that this arguement is not about tomorrow, it's about today and yesterday and the days before. You said I was biased, you said I was belittling, you said my comparison was not fair. I asked why. You didn't answer. If D.Khanjar prices fall a heck of a lot, I WILL change my FAQ. But what I want to know is what your critics against me are RIGHT NOW. So let me repeat myself: I do agree with you that if a LUK dit was scrolling his Maple Shield, he'd be much weaker than the STR dit. Clean Maple Shields are so expensive AND you have to buy more scrolls for them, which gives them better stats but which, incidentally, makes the scrolling much more expensive (and increases the chance of blowing them up if you use 70%). This is essentially why I'm saying that a LUK dit will usually NOT scroll his own shield, but buy it prescrolled (unless, of course, he has almost unlimited funds and is trying to make an ultimate shield). Do you agree with that? If you do, then I don't see what you're disagreeing with. If you don't, then please explain why not.
lmVindictive said: "I suggest we continue this after the deflation has occured, could change a lot of factors. Considering the regular khanjar is nearly npc price(sarcasm) it's bound to have an impact on the dragon khanjar's price as well. There will be a lot more 20att+ khanjrs which may cause someone to not even think about buying a dragon one especially if it involves adding 20 more dex and 15 more str." I don't think there will be much of a deflation, that there even will be one can be disputed. Why, you ask? If we're talking about deflation, it should have started by now. Have you checked prices for stuff for sins? Their prices are dropping already. And whoever said that sellers are going to lower their prices? As if stands, the supply of khanjars is less than the demand and I don't think that will really change much after pirates come out. Why would bandits around 12X (except for Loose, but I don't think he'd ever buy one) who have the money and the will to buy one quit? It's useless to talk about changes in the economy before they've occurred, especially for bandits. We all thought that bandit prices would get lower after 4th job came out, they increased by insane amounts in the end. PS. Kazegiri, I went and tried out Typhons. Made 30% per hour. Got no drops, so I lost some money on pots, but it was much better than my efficiency at WS. New Blog: So.... Yeah
Mejust said: " PS. Kazegiri, I went and tried out Typhons. Made 30% per hour. Got no drops, so I lost some money on pots, but it was much better than my efficiency at WS." That's what I thought :p Typhons are really your best bet. Oh, and believe you me, you probably gained some money even if you got no drops. They give a LOT of mesos and make you consume so little pots. EDIT: and it seems Vindictive gave up again =/ I was really curious about his opinion too. Oh well. Guess he'll be back in a month or so.
Kazegiri said: "That's what I thought :p Typhons are really your best bet. Oh, and believe you me, you probably gained some money even if you got no drops. They give a LOT of mesos and make you consume so little pots." No, I lost around 20k when it comes to pure mesos. And on top of that, I used around 1000barbs and around 200sorcerers there if I recall correct. New Blog: So.... Yeah
Mejust said: " No, I lost around 20k when it comes to pure mesos. And on top of that, I used around 1000barbs and around 200sorcerers there if I recall correct." Well there we go, use supreme pizzas and you would've gained mesos :p
Kazegiri said: " Well there we go, use supreme pizzas and you would've gained mesos :p" Nah, my mp cost was 5 times lower than my hp cost, so I don't think supremes would be more efficient. New Blog: So.... Yeah
Mejust said: " Nah, my mp cost was 5 times lower than my hp cost, so I don't think supremes would be more efficient." Supreme pizzas give you unlimited MP for free :p The best is to compine Supremes with Barbs
I'll consider it once I've burned the 2.5k barbs and 1k sorcerers left in my inventory. New Blog: So.... Yeah
lmVindictive said: "If you want to compare prescroll to prescrolled rather than money to scroll one I suggest you make that quite clear. " You suggest I make it quite clear? On May 16th I told you: “I'm comparing funding. A Dragon Khanjar + 7x 60% shield ATK scrolls should be worth as much (IMO) as a 18 ATK shield.” (page 12) On May 17th I told you: “If you want a Dragon Khanjar, you are forced (right now at least) to buy one clean and scroll it yourself, whereas it'd be stupid (or at least a gamble) to try to scroll a Maple Shield yourself. I don't want to start trying to predict what attack maple shield you could get if you'd invest 420 mil, especially since there's so many options you could use (30% first? 70% all the way? 70% first then 60%?), opposite to the scrolling of a Dragon Khanjar, since I doubt many people would use something else than 60% on a Khanjar... that's why with equal funding, I gave one a self scrolled Khanjar and the other a bought Maple Shield." (page 12) On May 18th I told you: “I'm taking the most common solution for both bandits. With 4XX mil, a STR bandit will buy a Dragon Khanjar and scroll it with 60%. With 4XX mil, a LUK bandit will buy a 18 ATK shield. If you have any other comparison that seems more logical to you, do tell me. I'll be glad to revise the calculations" (page 13) On October 29th I told you : “I just realized you still didn't understand that what I imply is that STR dits scroll their own D. Khanjars (because who can find and buy a prescrolled D. Khanjars?) and LUK dits buy their shield prescrolled (because there's plenty on the market). I hope I won't have to repeat that for the 8th time. " (page 17) And you suggest I make it quite clear? Read, man, read. There’s plenty of other times where I told you, whether in PM or in the posts, but since I don’t have the PMs and since I wasn’t as obviously clear in the other posts, these examples should be enough. It's not my fault if you don't read what I write. What I say in the comparison in the FAQ : "23 ATK 4 STR 2 LUK Dragon Khanjar (averagely scrolled with 60%)" I do not say that for any other equip, since all others are bought prescrolled. Don’t forget I said that they had equal FUNDING, which would mean that they would have the same amount of money to buy their weapons and all. From that I would have believed people would understand that the Khanjar is scrolled, but the other items are prescrolled. Perhaps I was wrong. I can write "bought prescrolled" after each and every item if that would make you stop attacking me. lmVindictive said: "1) dragon khanjars are no longer priceless which you changed without me knowing or informing " So now I have to send you a PM every time I change the FAQ? Just read the update section to see what I change. And anyway, I never changed anything about the price of Khanjars. It just so happens that even with the prices going up and down, there's no real change, and I still think the comparison I made is pretty fair. So far I never had to change it (except to include Deputy Stars, which help STR dits more than LUK dits). Once again, if you think the comparison isn't fair, tell me how it isn't. lmVindictive said: " 2) It does breach the gap. This does not make a str dit greater but only equal playing field which then leads to which one has the greatest funding to squeeze out the most attack." Did I ONCE say the opposite? Of course it breaches the gap. But you seem to believe that every STR dit has enough funds for a Dragon Khanjar... What I say and what I always said is: "a lvl 120 STR dit WILL be more powerful than a lvl 120 LUK dit with equal funding, as long as the funding is enough to buy a Dragon Khanjar and a good level 100 dagger". You can check the calculations again for Cursayers. Actually I should update the comparison by giving a level 100 dagger to the LUK dit... Blood Daggers are pretty cheap now =/ But heh, I'm not in any hurry really. I guess I'll do it by the next update.
lmVindictive said: " Note, the entire point was to edit the thread. You did not make it clear in the thread of your intentions, which you sent me in via pm. Sure that clarifies my point of view but what about he majority. Also I would think that instead of continuing to argue with me for 2 weeks you would have simply told me "yeah I changed it for you". Considering you were still argueing about it, I only could assume you didn't change it, thats just simple deductive reasoning. Yes I would expect someone to tell me they fixed or somehow changed the problem, I don't find that to unreasonable do you? Yeah you didn't say the opposite, then again you never said it in general period. Also misidentifying what the dragon khanjar is intended to do, which is to breach the gap as you agreed, not at all intended to over power the luk bandit. You never clarify this and only say that you need a dragon khanjar and a high level dagger to outdamage one, which many people I sure read as "used to over power a luk dit". I see your entire portion of the str dit slightly challenging the players build choices by only comparing them in terms of damage. Sure people look into that but I think it be much more fitting to claim that in the end luk and str dits are equal. In other words I'm asking you to edit that portion to make it clear that the subclasses become equal if the dragon khanjar is acquired, and for only 300mil(especially with the boxes) is not that hard to achieve so I think you overemphasizing the situation makes this seem like a rare occurrence. Also even in your comparison suggests that a 23att vs an 18att has a 5att average, as would daggers I assume. Which also would benefit as a 'calculatory' breakthrough." I'm glad to see you've started arguing decently again, now we're going to be able to get somewhere For the changes, as I told you, I made one major change to the STR dit part a short while after Leafre came out, but nothing after. Don't forget, Leafre came with loads more level 100 STR daggers, D. Khanjars and Horntail necklaces, that's mostly why I made the change. Anyway I always post about new updates, as well as mention it in the update section. If things change, the FAQ changes, just keep that in mind if you ever have another question/comment later on XP As for bridging the gap, I see what you mean, but you know how people are, they want to know what's best, because there indeed is a best. As you said yourself, before level 120 it's LUK, after level 120 it's STR given you have enough funds. I made a whole "build changing guide" for people who always want to stay at the top, since loads of people were asking me when to convert from X to Y and from Y to Z. Before level 120, the damage difference between STR and LUK isn't that big. After level 120, the damage difference still isn't that big, even though the roles are reversed. We all know funding is what gives damage, but there still is one better build for you if what you want is damage (and you'd be amazed to see how many PMs I used to receive each week asking me what people had to do with builds and capping and all before I added it all). So it's more than bridging the gap. But then again, the gap wasn't that wide to begin with. Oh and don't forget, loads of people don't buy NX. 300m might not be such a big thing for you, but let me remind you, you also need funds for all other equips. And don't forget either that a clean Khanjar is not enough to bridge the gap, it has to be scrolled. I'd say that before a Shadower thinks about buying a Dragon Khanjar, he'll have at least 1 bil in funding. And even among the NX buyers, there isn't that many that have 1 bil... Do tell me if there's anything else wrong. Thanks!
lmVindictive said: " I believe the dragon khanjar came out when NLC came out, it's just zip was a much more reliable gach. I don't have any proof of that but just an fyi. The original arguement proceeded nearly 3 months before you pmed me. My accounts were deleted so once again I cannot justify this but there was a huge time gap from when you pmed and ect. After all that I agree all I ask is that you clarify that the intention of the khanjar is not to over power but to even the odds. Yes solely buying a clean dkjar will not autmatically even it, but the programmers from simple deductive reasoning intended it for to be clean shield vs clean shield. Now never is that the case but I doubt they'd make a shield that no matter what scrolling would have a 15att above a luk dits shield, from averages that is (Were talking 30-35 att clean). The reason I took down the thread, and are asking you to make this change is because it does clearly specify what those items do and that funding becomes the dependent factor rather than stat distrubtions, correct? It endorses str bandit's which will evidently hurt our class in ignorance, funding, and possibly just ruin the subclass all together. Pirates however will change the game for everyone soon and most likely will kill the band wagoners of our class for a very long time." Yes I know it came out before Leafre, but there were so little of them that it didn't matter much. After Leafre there started being a bit more (like three or four per world), and with all the new STR CB items, that's why I made the change. As for the rest, like I said, there isn't a huge gap between STR and LUK, before level 120 or after, I think I mention that quite often in the guide. Heck, I even say that if both the LUK and STR CB use an attack pot, the LUK starts being stronger again despite the Khanjar. If you look at the numbers, you can see there's barely a 20 damage difference between both builds, so I think it's pretty clear that the Khanjar cannot "overpower" LUK dits. You can never "own" someone because of your build, you can only "own" people who have less funds than you. All I want to say is that my guide is a FAQ. It's supposed to answer questions from people. And people always ask me, what does more damage, STR or LUK? I know it makes STR bandwagoners when I say they deal more damage after level 120, but that's just how it is. I can't not answer them can I? =/ But as you can see in other parts of the guide, I never say that the damage difference between builds is huge. EDIT: check number 26 for the comparison I made between builds, if you hadn't read it before I also hope Pirates will get us rid of all bandwagoners :p
lmVindictive said: " You don't have to to answer it directly and bluntly either, F3. Anyway you also might want to add shadower tips, I'd do it myself but I am far to unorganized." Well I didn't want to add them while I wasn't a shad, that would've been a bit too pompous :p However, now that I've reached level 120 I just might add a few tips when I find some :p I don't hear many questions about Shads though, so I don't have a lot of ideas of what I could say =/ I mean, except for the build of course.
lmVindictive said: "I can list a thousand for ya lol. The build, question about skills, idea's how to combine them, macro's that assist, where to train, how to train, ect ect." Well I *did* just become a Shadower, I still don't know much about everything lol :p Perhaps as I learn and experiment I'll update, but that might be in quite a while since I play in average one hour a week :p All I know is the most efficient basic build and a few macro thingies :p EDIT: hey I was thinking about something... do you really think that all the Khanjars that have dropped from the boxes will lower the prices of the Dragon Khanjar? Wouldn't that make more people switching to STR dit to wear all the Khanjars, thus increasing prices for STR daggers and D. Khanjars? Just wondering. |
