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Legal Information This F.A.Q. was originally created by GrifMoNeY, who has given me permission to repost and edit this F.A.Q. GrifMoNeY said: "By order of the Grif, I give Sapphire8, Spiritrival and Technolink the rights to copy and repost my guide, under the condition that proper credit for its creation and maintenance is given, to myself and the other archers. You guys can choose ownership. I also expressly forbid Strongdude from copying, because he is a whiny brat who seems likely to steal the guide as his own." Thank you very much GrifMoNeY.Article 8 Subsection Q said: "This FAQ was written by spirtrival and GrifMoNeY and is Copyright © 2008 spiritrival. You may not take it in whole or in part and claim it as your own. You may not alter it in any way, even if you ask first, and that includes putting it in HTML format or plain text. Please don’t post this on your site unless you have express consent by me, spiritrival. Currently, the only sites with permission to host this guide are Basilmarket, The Forest or Wisdom, and Archer Guide Forums. spiritrival and GrifMoNeY are the only people with permission to post this FAQ on any of the aforementioned websites." Useful Links Archer Guide Forums. This is a simple forum that was made so us archers can discuss Bowman stuff without spamming up Basil and/or Sleepywood. This is where the new training guide originated from, as well as the Bow v. Crossbow guide. AGF's New and Improved Archer Where-to-Train. The training guide thread was developed by the Archer Guide Forums (link above), this is an ever-improving compilation of training places. At the forums, you can suggest and submit new places so it's always accurate! Bow or Crossbow | The Ultimate Decision. This was also developed by the Archer Guide Forums and answers the ever-important question: Bow or Crossbow. This gives you the most objective facts about each class that you can possibly find. Archer Skill Build Guide. A very intensive guide written by our own bluebomber24. I recommend this as a great place to view and ask questions about your skill build instead of spamming the forums. Simplified Archer Guide for the Lazy Bowman. A short guide designed by tzk221 to be short! Pretty much your standard information here with links to their more detailed versions. Archer Damage Ranges. This is a rolling archive of Bowman damage ranges. It is maintained by Technolink, and is a very accurate way to compare yourself to others by seeing their damage. Archer Key Settings. Designed after the Archer Damage Ranges, this is a rolling archive of Key Settings of various Bowmen. You can use it to find a setting that's comfortable to you. It's managed by kevvl13. Archer Damage Ranges Independent Website. The Archer Damage Ranges thread, scripted and maintained by 2mbur2n, is your all purpose Bowman damage ranges, without the Basil. Great to give to Sleepywood people! Forest of Wisdom. A website made by Sapphire8 that has a lot of useful (and useless) tools for Bowmen! It also includes a detailed explanation of Final Attack. Sybaris' Damage Calculator is a very awesome way to calculate your damage, as well as how effective certain monsters are to train on. It gives stats such as average hits to kill said monster, average Mesos per shot, and even has most 4th job skills programmed. Best of all, you can edit almost everything in case you disagree with it (for example the shooting speeds). Bored Bowman. Are you a bored Bowman? Most of us are. This website is designed to get you inspired to start shooting baddies again. With tons of videos, pictures, and helpful tips and tricks, this website is made and maintained by Kiffle. Pokgai's Wordpress. Pokgai was a high leveled JMS bow master who is now retired (discussion not tolerated in this thread), but in his time in MS, he has answered many questions about 4th job in JMS (and possibly GMS). His website has TONS of information on 4th job, and being a Bowman in general. He also has a pretty funny/informative video-series. RoyalCatManDo's HP Washing Guide. It speaks for itself, it's an HP washing guide. Learn all about HP washing. trumark's Blood Master build. Where AP is put into HP and never to return to Dex! Table of Contents Introduction 1) Ability Points 2) Arrows and Soul Arrow 3) Mastery and Expert 4) Booster 5) Double Summon 6) Jumpshooting 7) Walkshooting 8) Speed v. Jump 9) Snowshoes v. Whitebottoms 10) Dex v. Attack 11) Fast Bows v. Strong Bows 12) Arrow Blow v. Double Shot 13) Str-less Bowmen 14) Strafe v. Double Shot + Final Attack 15) Strafe v. Hurricane Glitches 1) Mortal Blow 2) Jumpshooting 3) Summons 4) Puppet 5) Phantom Arrow 6) Disconnecting with Pierce Credits Introduction There are a number of questions in this forum that would be considered redundant. Typically, they involve common myths and questions, and biased arguments. In this article, I hope to address as many of these questions as possible, in as much depth as is necessary to come to a conclusion. This article is not meant to be read start to finish. It is intended to answer some of the most frequently asked questions on this forum, accurately and intuitively. If you find that some information is inaccurate, please, don't hesitate to point it out. Return to top 1) AP Distribution By no means do you have to follow any of this, these just show what people commonly do. A Regular Hunter will have Str equal to his level + 5. So, if a Hunter is level 30, he should have 35 Str. A Regular Crossbowman will have Str equal to her level. So, if a Crossbowman is level 30, she should have 30 Str. From there on, you should add 4 Dex and 1 Str per level. However, when you plan carefully, you should only add Str before you get your new weapon. For example, say you’re level 40 and at level 50 you need an Olympus. You can add Dex using the AP from levels 40 to 47 and add Str from levels 49 and 50. That way, you should have 55 Str right when you need your new weapon. Remember, you’ll need to plan in advance in order to do this properly. Being a Low-Str Bowman is easily accomplished. Basically, you use Str from equipment to boost your Str up high enough to wear your current weapon. Say you have an Olympus that requires 55 Str and you only have 50 Str. You'll need 5 more Str to wear that Olympus. If you buy a Red Kismet (or Blue Lumati) you'll get 4 Str. You can get that last 1 Str from a pair of Blue Steel Tipped Boots. Now, you have 50+5 Str. Unfortunately, there are no 100% Scrolls for Overall for Str, so you can just scroll your Red Kismet (or Blue Lumati) with 100% Scrolls for Overall for Dex. Always get the better deal unless you really need the extra Str. If there was a Blue Maro (adds 2 Str and 1 Dex) that cost 500k and there was a Green Maro (adds 3 Dex) that was only 100k, you're better off buying the Green Maro. When you're buying equipment, Str equals Dex, excluding cost. Also, with equal funds, a Low-Str Bowman is stronger than a Regular Bowman. A Low-Str bowman will be able to save more Meso when buying equipment, and therefore, have more Meso to buy stronger equipment. Capping Str is a wise thing to do, but requires attention and planning. First, you'll need to know what your final weapon will be. In this case, let's use the Casa Crow, which needs 90 Str. As soon as you get 90 Str, simply stop adding Str. But it gets a little more complicated. If you're Low-Str, you'll need to make sure that your equipment with Str will not be replaced with equipment with lower Str, otherwise, you can no longer equip the Casa Crow. You may also want to anticipate certain events. If you're going to get a Zakum Helm at level 91, you'll be better off either replacing your current Str equipment with Dex ones, or leave your base Str lower. Common stopping points for Rangers are 85 and 95 Str for the Arund and Metus, respectively. For Snipers, Str is generally capped at 80 for the Raven and 90 for the Casa Crow. Remember, this is total Str, not base Str. Remember that the amount of Str you have does not affect your total HP. If you compare 10 Str-less Bowmen with 10 "Regular" Bowmen, you should see a very small difference, which only comes because HP is randomly given every level. However, the amount of Int you have does affect your MP. For every 10 Int you have, you will gain an extra 1 MP. If you have 9 Int, it won't count. Also, this is based on total Int. Read RoyalCatManDo's HP Washing Guide to learn, well, how to HP wash of course! All credits go to him and whoever helped him. Read trumark's Blood Master build to learn about putting AP into HP and not washing it out. It sounds simple, but I suggest you read it so that you fully understand it. All credits go to him and whoever helped him. Now for the unorthodox builds. Some have decided to create a Pure Str Bowman (a Bowman with only 25 Dex and the rest in Str). Their main attack would be Power Knockback because they believe it is based on Str. However, Power Knockback is based off of Dex. Various tests have been performed and proven this. Bowjabber, a Pure Str Bowman, became level 30 and used Power Knockback. The highest amount of damage he could deal on a Snail was 29. Surely if it was Str based, the amount of damage would be higher. For Str-less Bowmen, or Pure Dex Bowmen, see here. Return to top 2) Arrows and Soul Arrow Some people claim that if you equip arrows that add effects (like Diamond Arrows which add 4 Attack), but cast Soul Arrow, you will keep the Attack benefit without losing arrows. Unfortunately, this is not true. While a physical arrow is equipped and Soul Arrow is activated, the change from the physical arrow is still registered in your stat window, but your actual damage will still be calculated as if you were using a normal arrow. Please note that this has been tested multiple times. In this example and this example, you’ll see that they have Bronze and Steel Arrows equipped. The damage is registered in their stat window and Soul Arrow is active. Snails and Blue Snails have 0 Def, which means that it should be impossible to hit below their damage range. That means that the status effect from the Bronze and Steel Arrows has been negated. Here are some more recent tests with Diamond Arrows. Critical Damage of 404 Critical Damage of 396 Critical Damage of 408 Critical Damage of 408 Normal Damage of 202 Return to top 3) Mastery and Expert When you put points in Mastery, every odd skill level will raise your minimum damage by 5%. When it reaches level 19, the skill gives 60% "skill mastery" (a percent that is multiplied to give your minimum damage), and adds 19 Accuracy. Adding one more skill point only increases your Accuracy by one, which is about as useful as one point in Blessing. Some argue that the flare that appears when you fire an arrow with level 20 Mastery changes. I assure you that the flare stays the same from level 19 to level 20. There is a 4th job skill called Expert that, at level 30, brings mastery to 90% and adds 10 Atk. A prerequisite for this skill is having Mastery at level 20, so for purposes of planning, it is a good idea to invest that last point in Mastery, perhaps at level 70 before you take the 3rd job quest. Return to top 4) Booster When you put points Booster, every skill level increases the duration by 10 seconds, and decreases the MP and HP cost by 1. Investing more points into Booster does not increase your firing speed. While Booster is in effect, your firing speed will increase by the same rate whether the skill is at level 1 or 20; it is only the cost and duration that are affected. Return to top 5) Double Summon With the addition of 4th job, came another skill we could use to summon. Some have been wondering whether you can summon two at once; the answer is no. We would be just too powerful with both available at once. If you try to summon Golden Eagle while Frost Prey is out, Golden Eagle will take its place. Return to top 6) Jumpshooting Jumpshooting is a technique that takes advantage of a glitch (the designers of Maple Story did not intend for jumpshooting with any ranged weapon other than Claws and Guns, therefore it is a glitch). Normally, Bowmen cannot shoot an arrow while airborne. However, pressing both the attack key and the jump key simultaneously will cause a Bowman to shoot immediately before jumping. Jumpshooting makes it so the arrow is fired where you were last on the ground and you are able to move in the air while the arrow is being fired. This technique does not work with all keyboards. In addition, you may want to move your keys around so that you are more comfortable with jumpshooting. A Hunter with Final Attack (FA) who does not wish to fire the additional arrow can avoid doing so with a jumpshot, as the second attack will never activate while you’re in the air. Since it maintains a Bowman's motion while shooting, it adds a useful game play element and can make you slightly faster in battle. You can dodge magical projectiles, ground-based attacks, and move forward while shooting an arrow. You do this by moving forward and then press both Jump and Attack (while still moving). If completed correctly, you should be able to shoot an arrow and move from your original spot. A simpler way to use this is to use the Alt GR key. Unfortunately, this key is not available to most American keyboards. This key is used to type foreign symbols not used in the English language, like piñata. Now, if you put your attacking skill on Alt and Jump on Control. When you press Alt GR, you will be able to jumpshoot without any hassle. Another technique, called "reverse jumpshooting" or "backshooting", involves walking forward, then suddenly changing direction while pressing Jump and Attack. Your character will appear to be jumping backwards, and firing an arrow opposite to his motion. It takes advantage of the character's sliding backwards during the turn, and is therefore easier to perform on slippery maps. It is near impossible on Snowshoes, because the instant you turn around, you are moving at full speed in that direction. From that point you can only forward jumpshoot. There is another method of backshooting that has been shown to me for the very purpose of proving that you can fire backwards while on Snowshoes. In this maneuver, you jump forward and change direction while in mid-air, then do a normal jumpshot the moment you land. This variation of the backshot, which may be unofficially called the "sliding backshot", is more elaborate and somewhat less effective, because you lose backward momentum as you land and must use your jumpshot as soon as possible; however, it all comes down to skill and playing style in the end. Now, earlier on I mentioned that jumpshooting was a glitch. Due to players being suspended from the game because of Glitch Orbis Party Quest, people are worried that they will get banned from jumpshooting. This is highly unlikely. Firstly, I doubt they could detect someone jumpshooting as it can be misinterpreted as lag on another computer. Secondly, too many players jumpshoot or telecast (they're both very similar). Nexon would never want to lose that much of their population because of a glitch that doesn't even have that great of an effect. You'll save a few potions and train a (very) little bit faster. Also, to clear up some more confusion, this is not the same as with Claws and Guns. They were meant to jumpshoot. If they were not meant to jumpshoot, Nexon would have prevented them from attacking while in midair. The only weapons where you cannot use skills in midair are Bows, Crossbows, Wands (some skills may work in midair), and Staffs (same as Wands). Return to top 7) Walkshooting Walkshooting is a Bow Master only technique, as it is done with Hurricane. Hold either the left or right button and tap the hotkey for Hurricane as you're moving. Your character will slide, almost as if it was on ice/snow. Therefore, you can't walkshoot with Snowshoes equipped. Each time you tap Hurricane, arrows will fire. The amount of arrows you fire depends on your Speed. With 108% Speed, you'll only be able to get off a single arrow. With 137% Speed, you should be able to fire 2-4 Arrows. After you fire about 6 arrows, your character will stop moving, so you'll need to let go of Hurricane. After you release Hurricane, you will resume walking, as long as you keep holding on to the directional button. You can also turn around quickly and fire Hurricane arrows in both directions. Since Hurricane fires several independent arrows at high speed, you should be able to fire an arrow to your left, fire one to your right, and then fire another to left before either of them disappear. Walkshooting with Hurricane can be faster than jumpshooting with Strafe (or any other skill). As you become more experienced at this technique, you should be able to walkshoot at about the same rate as regular walking. Credit for this section mainly belongs to Icedfire. Return to top 8) Speed v. Jump Let's look at the scrolls available for a Shoe (30% and 70% scrolls can be disregarded as they add the same effects as their respective 10% and 60% scrolls). 10% Speed: +3 Speed 60% Speed: +2 Speed 100% Speed: +1 Speed 10% Jump: +5 Jump, +3 Dex, +1 Speed 60% Jump: +2 Jump, +1 Dex 100% Jump: +1 Jump 10% DEX: +5 Avoid, +3 Acc, +1 Speed 60% DEX: +2 Avoid, +1 Acc 100% DEX: +1 Avoid The primary reason to scroll for Jump is for the Dex bonus (which ironically is absent in the Dex scrolls), since Dex is one of the more influential stats. You should consider buying two Shoes, one that adds Speed and one that adds Dex. In large maps where you always (or for a large portion of the time) kill the monsters in the exact same number of hits, it is useful to have extra Speed to move back and forth laying waste to the monsters. However, if it takes varying amounts of hits to kill a monster, you might consider Dex Shoes to cause more damage and kill the monster faster. It all depends on what you’re training on. Return to top 9) Snowshoes v. Whitebottoms Snowshoes have 18 DEF, 7 slots, and the special quality of zero slip. Whitebottoms have 13 DEF, 3 SPD, and 5 slots. With zero slip comes instant turnaround, and more control over your character's movements, but this is a game play mechanic that depends solely on your playing style. Snowshoes with 7 100% Speed scrolls: +7 SPD Whitebottoms with 5 100% Speed scrolls: +8 SPD Snowshoes with 7 60% Speed scrolls: +14 SPD Whitebottoms with 5 60% Speed scrolls: +13 SPD Although using 60% Speed scrolls yield a higher SPD benefit with Snowshoes, it is fairly trivial to spend money on a more expensive shoe and two extra scrolls for +1 SPD. If you do not have a need for extra SPD, you can take advantage of the DEX gained from Jump scrolls (see 7) Speed VS Jump) to cause more damage. As Snowshoes have two more slots, you can add +7 DEX as opposed to +5 with other shoes. Return to top 10) Dex v. Attack Some argue that Dex adds more damage than Atk and others argue the opposite. The one arguing that Atk adds more damage is correct. Atk simply has more of an impact on your damage because of how your damage range is calculated. Bows – [(3.4*Dex+Str)/100]*Atk Crossbows – [(3.6*Dex+Str)/100]*Atk If you would like, you can use sapphire8’s Dex/Atk Calculator to figure out exactly how much Dex is equal to 1 Atk. If Dex is less than 1, that means Dex adds more damage. If Dex is more than 1, than Atk adds more damage. Return to top 11) Fast Bows v. Strong Bows There are certain levels where you can equip two types of Bows: Bows that are fast, and Bows that have more Atk. To figure out whether the attack Speed balances out with the increase in power, much like Bows and Crossbows, the math is shown below. The Red Viper and the Vaulter 2000 is used as an example. An average Red Viper shoots at a Fast rate (up to 92 shots per minute) with only 50 Atk. On the other hand, an average Vaulter 2000 shoots at a Normal rate (up to 83 shots per minute) with 55 Atk. Let’s assume that Character A is using the Red Viper is level 40, has 175 Dex, has 40 Str, and has 50 Atk. Let’s also assume that Character B is using the Vaulter 2000 is level 40, has 170 Dex, has 45 Str, and has 55 Atk. The reason Character A has 5 more Dex is because he needs 5 less Str to equip his Bow. Character A’s Damage Range: 180 ~ 317; Average with Critical: 347 Character B’s Damage Range: 196 ~ 342; Average with Critical: 376 Character A’s Average Damage Over Time: 28,801 Character B’s Average Damage Over Time: 33,088 Now, as you can see here, it would be better to be using a Vaulter 2000. However, if Character A has 4 more Atk than Character B instead of 5 less Atk (total of 9 Atk difference), Character A does more damage over time. Character A’s Damage Range: 213 ~ 374; Average with Critical: 410 Character A’s Average Damage Over Time: 34,104 It should be noted that since Fast Bows are, well, faster, they take more of a blow from Weapon Defense. More shots means that the total reduction for Defense is higher for Fast Bows. However, each Bow has certain qualities. The Red Viper fires faster than the Vaulter 2000 does, meaning that in a situation where both Bows one-hit kill, the Red Viper allows you to move to the next monster faster. But because the damage range on Bowmen is quite broad, the increased Atk of the Vaulter 2000 helps ensure that you one-hit kill, and allows you to fight tougher monsters sooner. Return to top 12) Arrow Blow v. Double Shot Maxed Arrow Blow (AB) costs 14 MP and one arrow to deal 260% damage before Critical Shot is added. Maxed Double Shot (DS) costs 16 MP and two arrows to do 130% damage each before Critical Shot is added, twice. Seeing that maximized Critical Shot adds 100% damage 40% of the time, it adds an average of 40% to each attack. Because it is added twice to Double Shot, the final damage tabulations are: Arrow Blow without Critical Shot: 260% min Arrow Blow average: 260% + 40% = 300% average Arrow Blow with a Critical Shot: 260% + 100% = 360% max Double Shot with no Critical Shots: 130% * 2 = 260% min Double Shot average: (130% + 40%) * 2 = 340% average Double Shot with two Critical Shots: (130% + 100%) * 2 = 460% max Obviously, Double Shot does more overall damage. There are a few additional concerns, however. Because Arrow Blow hits at a maximum 360%, whereas Double Shot hits a maximum of 230% each, there is a better chance to KB some monsters at higher levels. Furthermore, Arrow Blow with Critical Shot causes the greatest single-hit damage available to a Bowman (excluding Pierce and Snipe), meaning that it can be used forever as a KB skill. However, causing KB damage isn't as important as killing the monster outright, and in nearly all forms of training, damage over time is the primary issue. Double Shot, costing 2 more MP than Arrow Blow, is more expensive to train with, using more MP potions over time. This handicap is of much more interest to a poor Bowman than a rich one, however, the Meso loss from the increased Potion consumption is almost negligible. Strafe uses much more MP than both Arrow Blow and Double Shot; it costs 32 MP. Arrow Blow can be used in third job as a finisher, so as to save 18 MP per shot. One common myth in the Bowman world is that of monster DEF. Studies have proven that monster DEF reduces your raw damage, not damage on a by-hit basis. The Arrow Blow and Double Shot damage modifiers are not affected in any way: they are still 300% and 340%, respectively. Another myth is that Critical Shot doubles your damage, this is most certainly untrue. Compare a Bowman with maxed Arrow Blow and a Bowman with maxed Double Shot (make sure their equipment are similar) and you’ll see that Double Shot will do more total damage. To summarize, Double Shot does more average damage and costs slightly more in terms of MP potions (though a 2 MP difference is a small loss), while Arrow Blow has greater Knockback damage, but is less efficient overall. Return to top 13) Str-less Bowmen A Str-less Bowman, sometimes called a Pure Dex Bowman, is exactly what it sounds like. A Bowman without Str, or in this case 4 because that’s the minimum. Str-less Bowmen were made possible with the release of the Maple weapons. A Str-less Bowman uses a level 10 War Bow until level 35, when he can then switch to a Maple Bow, and then to a Maple Soul Searcher at level 43. At level 55, the Winkel is available. The Maple Kandiva can be equipped at level 64. Finally, at level 65, Str-less Hunters can equip a Bow of Magical Destruction (BoMD). It should be noted that the Bow of Magical Destruction and Maple Kandiva both have the same average Atk, but the Maple Kandiva fires faster. This build has some obvious advantages and some obvious setbacks. The fact that a point of Dex does much less for a bowman than Luk for an Assassin or Int for a Wizard, makes this build less practical than a Luk-less Wizard or Dex-less Assassin. The extra Atk from new Bows may overpower the Dex bonus. Also, scrolling rare items isn't cheap, so equipping a Str-less Bowman can be costly. Many consider the short lasting "thrill period" of high damages not worth the cost. Others point out that being a Str-less takes the excitement out of important milestones (level 50, for example), because there is no change of weapon. It takes a while, about at level 100, before a Str-less Ranger gets outdamaged. If a 'Regular' Ranger is level 100, has a Nisrock, has 130 Atk, has 105 Str, and has 450 Dex, the damage range will be 1210~2125. If a Str-less Ranger is level 100, has a Bow of Magical Destruction, has 113 Atk, has 4 Str, and has 550 Dex, the damage range will be 1145~2117. The 'Regular' Ranger will have 65 more minimum damage and 8 more maximum damage. If I use more realistic statistics for both of them, the conclusion should be fairly similar. However, the Str-less Ranger can equip the Maple Kandiva as well, which has a Fast attack speed. We'll need to figure out damage over time in order to see how many more levels a Str-less Ranger can stay on par with or surpass a 'Regular' Ranger. Remember that a Normal speed Bow shoots 88 times a minute while a Fast speed Bow shoots 92 times. Nisrock Minimum: 1210 * 88 = 106,480 Nisrock Maximum: 2125 * 88 = 187,000 Maple Kandiva Minimum: 1145 * 92 = 105,340 Maple Kandiva Maximum: 2117 * 92 = 194,764 As we can see, the Str-less Ranger deals 7,764 more maximum damage, but the 'Regular' Ranger deals 1,140 more minimum damage. It simply becomes a matter of time, still. As the two Rangers level past 100, the gap becomes wider as the 'Regular' Ranger's added Dex is multiplied by 130 Atk while the Str-less Ranger's is multiplied by only 113. For copyright/plagiarism reasons, this has been put here to prove that spiritrival and GrifMoNeY were the ones who wrote this. Str-less Crossbowmen were usually considered less practical than Str-less Hunters, mainly because there was no Crossbow equivalent of the Bow of Magical Destruction. Without any high-leveled Str-less Crossbows, a Str-less Crossbowman has no future after level 60. However, a Str-less Crossbowman can now equip the Maple Nishada. Similar to the Maple Kandiva, it has a Fast attack speed. No math should be necessary, as it is practically the same with a Str-less Ranger. In addition, it should be noted that only the following equipment have a Str requirement (excluding weapons): Hats Hunter - level 25 Hawkeye - level 30 Pole-Feather Hat - Level 35 Lockewood Hat - level 35 Distinction - level 40 Tops and Bottoms Bennis Chainmail - level 25 Bennis Chainpants - level 25 Shoes Woodsman Boots - level 15 Huntertop - level 20 Jack Boots - level 25 This means that, after level 40, a Str-less Bowman does not have to worry about not being able to use equipment. There is also another Hat that requires Str, the Blue Bamboo Hat. If any Str-less Bowman complains about not being able to wear a Hat that adds 3 Str, you should tell them to read this FAQ.  To sum it up, becoming a Str-less Hunter is an option for those who can afford a decent Maple Bow, Soul Searcher, and Bow of Magical Destruction, have the patience to get through the first 35 levels of "hell", and want a new challenge in the world of MapleStory. Return to top 14) Strafe v. Double Shot + Final Attack We already know that level 1 Strafe is stronger than level 20 Double Shot, since 1 Strafe is 368% average damage while 20 Double Shot is 340% average. But which is more effective with level 30 Final Attack? First, note that Final Attack does not activate for 3rd-job skills. Level 1 Strafe costs 26 MP, uses 4 arrows, and causes 52% damage before Critical four times. Level 20 Double Shot costs 16 MP, uses 2 arrows, and causes 130% damage before Critical twice. Level 30 Final Attack attacks freely after Double Shot, activating 60% of the time for 250% damage before Critical. Stats you need to know: Double Shot + Final Attack takes 1.12 seconds to fire. In one minute, Double Shot fires 63 times and Final Attack fires 38 times, or 101 times for both of them together, on average. If Final Attack fired every single time after Double Shot, we’d get 54 Double Shots and 53 Final Attacks. Double Shot and Strafe both take about .72 seconds to fire, making it 83 shots per minute. Minimum - Strafe, with no Critical Shots: 52% * 4 = 208% Average - Strafe average: (52% + 40%) * 4 = 92% * 4 = 368% Maximum - Strafe, with four Critical Shots: (52% + 100%) * 4 = 608% Minimum - Double Shot, with no Critical Shots: 130% * 2 = 260% Average - Double Shot average: (130% + 40%) * 2 = 170% * 2 = 340% Maximum - Double Shot, with two Critical Shots: (130% + 100%) * 2 = 460% Minimum - Final Attack, with no Critical Shot: 250% Average - Final Attack average: 250% + 40% = 290% Maximum - Final Attack, with a Critical Shot: 250% + 100% = 350% To find damage over time, we simply multiply the number of attacks per minute, by the average damage. Minimum - Strafe, with no Critical Shots: 208% * 83 = 17,264% Average - Strafe: 368% * 83 = 30,544% Maximum - Strafe, with four Critical Shots: 608% * 83 = 50,464% Minimum - Double Shot with no Critical Shots and no Final Attack: 260% * 83 = 21,580% Average - Double Shot + Final Attack: (340% * 63) + (290% * 38) = 21,420 + 11,020 = 32,440% Maximum - Double Shot with two Critical Shots and a Critical Final Attack: (460% * 54) + (350% * 53) = 24,840 + 18,550 = 43,390% Double Shot + Final Attack beats Strafe with minimum and average damage. However, like Critical Shot, Final Attack is unpredictable and may not activate when you really need it, and may activate after a monster is killed, wasting time on an extra shot. Because this section speaks only to Bowmen with Final Attack, the reasons to avoid the skill are not relevant. Double Shot + Final Attack causes more damage in one blow than Strafe. Having a greater attack is not automatically superior, even if the math disagrees. Firing twice with massive overkill tends to be slower than firing once and barely killing. Strafe costs more MP than Double Shot, with 26 MP at level 1 compared to 16. In 11) Arrow Blow VS Double Shot, I found the 2 MP difference to be negligible. However, a 10 MP loss for each Strafe hurts quite a bit more. Because Final Attack is a free attack (with its ups and downs), many people consider it best to use Double Shot until Strafe gains a few levels, to save money. Strafe: 26 * 83 = 2158 MP Double Shot: 16 * 63 = 1008 MP As you can see, you spend much less MP with Double Shot, on average. Again, on average, you’ll save yourself over half of the Meso it costs for you to buy MP Potions. Strafe will eventually outdamage Double Shot + Final Attack in every way. Final Attack may or may not be used well with other skills, but for the purposes of causing damage, Strafe will become superior as you invest levels in it. For reference, Arrow Blow + Final Attack: Minimum - Arrow Blow with no Critical Shots and no Final Attack: 260% * 88 = 22,880% Average - Arrow Blow + Final Attack: (300% * 63) + (290% * 38) = 18,900 + 11,020 = 29,920% Maximum - Critical Arrow Blow and Critical Final Attack: (360% * 54) + (350% * 53) = 19,440 + 18,550 = 37,990% Arrow Blow and Final Attack does less average and maximum damage compared to level 1 Strafe. All other arguments for/against Arrow Blow are more or less the same as with Double Shot. In summary, Double Shot + Final Attack hits harder for each attack, costs significantly less MP, and deals more minimum damage and slightly more average damage than level 1 Strafe (VERY slightly; 2 Strafe beats it by far in average damage). With each type of monster you face, gauge their HP and how many attacks (both Double Shot and Strafe) you use to kill them, and make a decision on whether training with Double Shot + Final Attack or Strafe is faster or cheaper at that point. Return to top 15) Strafe v. Hurricane As we all know, maxed Hurricane is better than maxed Strafe. We can tell that already without math by using common sense. However, when does it become more beneficial to use Hurricane over Strafe? Hurricane always fires 500 arrows per minute, whether you have Booster or a Fast Bow, it will still be 500 arrows per minute. Strafe fires 83 times in a minute, or 332 arrows per minute, but 4 arrows are always bundled together. We’ll be looking at damage over time to compare. To note, level 1 Hurricane deals 51% damage per arrow and Strafe deals 100% damage per arrow. Minimum - Strafe: (100% * 4) * 83 = 400% * 83 = 33,200% Average - Strafe: ((100% + 40%) * 4) * 83 = 560% * 83 = 46,480% Maximum - Strafe: ((100% + 100%) * 4) * 83 = 800% * 83 = 66,400% Minimum - Level 1 Hurricane: 51% * 500 = 25,500% Average - Level 1 Hurricane: (51% + 40%) * 500 = 91% * 500 = 45,500% Maximum - Level 1 Hurricane: (51% + 100%) * 500 = 151% * 500 = 75,500% Now, it seems that level 1 Hurricane only beats Strafe in maximum damage. Let’s boost up the level of Hurricane to level 3, where it has 53% damage. Minimum - Level 3 Hurricane: 53% * 500 = 26,500% Average - Level 3 Hurricane: (53% + 40%) * 500 = 93% * 500 = 46,500% Maximum - Level 3 Hurricane: (53% + 100%) * 500 = 153% * 500 = 76,500% Now we can see here that Strafe only beats level 9 Hurricane in minimum damage. You’ll need level 11 Hurricane to completely beat Strafe. Minimum - Level 11 Hurricane: 71% * 500 = 35,500% Average - Level 11 Hurricane: (71% + 40%) * 500 = 111% * 500 = 55,500% Maximum - Level 11 Hurricane: (71% + 100%) * 500 = 171% * 500 = 85,500% Now, we’ll add in another variable. Fast Bows. They fire at 92 shots per minute compared to a Normal Bow’s 83 shots per minute. Hurricane is unaffected by Fast Bows, so it may give Strafe a chance to catch up. Minimum - Fast Strafe: (100% * 4) * 92 = 400% * 92 = 36,800% Average - Fast Strafe: ((100% + 40%) * 4) * 92 = 560% * 92 = 51,520% Maximum - Fast Strafe: ((100% + 100%) * 4) * 92 = 800% * 92 = 73,600% This allows Strafe to beat level 3 Hurricane in average damage, but level 11 Hurricane still clearly outdamages Strafe, even with a Fast Bow. Now, let’s factor in some Sharp Eyes to see if that’ll change the outcome. We’ll start off with level 1 Sharp Eyes, level 1 Hurricane, and level 30 Strafe. Now, level 1 Sharp Eyes makes Bowmen have a 41% chance of landing a Critical that adds 211% damage to any attacking skill that can normally Critical. The average Critical for that would be .41 * 211, or 86%. Minimum - Strafe: (100% * 4) * 83 = 400% * 83 = 33,200% Average - Strafe: ((100% + 86%) * 4) * 83 = 744% * 83 = 61,752% Maximum - Strafe: ((100% + 211%) * 4) * 83 = 1244% * 83 = 103,252% Minimum - Level 1 Hurricane: 51% * 500 = 25,500% Average - Level 1 Hurricane: (51% + 86%) * 500 = 137% * 500 = 68,500% Maximum - Level 1 Hurricane: (51% + 211%) * 500 = 262% * 500 = 131,000% Now, it seems that level 1 Hurricane is better to use. However, that pesky minimum damage of Hurricane doesn’t rise due to the fact that minimum damage does not include Criticals. Now, time to calculate for Fast Bows again to see the difference. Minimum - Fast Strafe: (100% * 4) * 92 = 400% * 92 = 36,800% Average - Fast Strafe: ((100% + 86%) * 4) * 92 = 744% * 92 = 68,448% Maximum - Fast Strafe: ((100% + 211%) * 4) * 92 = 1244% * 92 = 114,448% Well, that certainly brought the average damages much closer with only a 52% difference. Unfortunately, a Fast Bow will not make Strafe with level 1 Sharp Eyes better than level 1 Hurricane with level 1 Sharp Eyes. So it would appear that having just level 1 Hurricane and level 1 Sharp Eyes makes Strafe almost obsolete. Although, I must include that using level 1 Sharp Eyes in everyday training would be pesky because you’ll need to recast it every 10 seconds. Return to top Glitches Glitch - A minor malfunction, mishap, or technical problem As derived from the above definition, a glitch is an unintentional malfunction. There appears to be many annoying glitches that affects the Bowman class. (Thus, many people think that Nexon hates us Bowmen. Using common sense, that isn't the case.) The following sections will be dealing with glitches that pertain to the Bowman class. I know, I know, glitches aren't frequently asked questions. However, they often lead to questions like, "Am I the only one who _____? Why does _____ happen to me? Why does _____ do this?" I will attempt to describe these glitches, and their solutions, as accurately as possible. Return to top 1) Mortal Blow The problem has already been brought to Nexon's attention already and they have fixed it already. This is only being kept for reference. This particular glitch was a great nuisance to few of those who have Mortal Blow. It would automatically disconnect you from the game's server when a certain event occurs. Mortal Blow's instant kill ability is not what caused you to disconnect. Having your 3rd job summon was not part of it, nor was taking damage and Mortal Blow activating at once. This glitch is still in the dark. It has been confirmed that it is Mortal Blow that is causing the problem. Some Bowmen speculate that the Mortal Blow glitch was dependent on the map you're in. For example, some people tended to disconnect frequently when in Leafre, but not so much when in Aqua Road. Others think that this glitch was caused when your internet connectivity was spiking (i.e. 150 kps, 60 kps, and then 140 kps). You may have been more susceptible to disconnect from the game. Another possible explanation is that there was a bug in the coding of one of the files. This may have caused Mortal Blow to randomly disconnect the player because of the miscoding. Return to top 2) Jumpshooting See 6) Jumpshooting. Return to top 3) Summons This glitch involves both Silver Hawk and Golden Eagle. When you go through a portal on a map while either Silver Hawk or Golden Eagle is active, it is possible that your summon will automatically go to the middle of the map and stay there. You can either cast it again or walk within its range. This range is the same range of characters showing on your mini map. Imagine that someone was in the middle of the map, as soon as you see the person on the mini map, they will transport back next to you. Simply replace that someone with your summon and that's the glitch. There's another glitch that involves Silver Hawk, Golden Eagle, and Frost Prey as well. On occasion, your summoned bird will pretend to attack a monster. By this I mean that it will show the attack, but no damage or status effect will occur. It's almost as if it is attacking nothing. Simply enter the Cash Shop, exit, and resummon it to fix the glitch. Return to top 4) Puppet Puppet, the skill that summons a scarecrow (ironically, there's a crow on it) designed to distract the monster's attention away from the user. For this skill to properly work, one must attack a monster and then cast Puppet, preferably in a direction so that the monster no longer attacking you. Normally, you would only have to attack the monster once. However, if another person is in the map, it may take more than one hit for the monster to be attracted to the Puppet instead of you. Most people, including myself, believe it is lag induced. The presence of another person makes it so that the monster does not immediately go to the Puppet. The situation is easily remedied. Simply attack it more than once, preferably so that it is in its flinch state at least once. Return to top 5) Phantom Arrow When you use Arrow Rain or Arrow Eruption, it's possible for another user to see a regular arrow shoot right before you use Rain or Eruption. You yourself can't see this phantom arrow, but it's possible for other people. It does not cause any extra damage or anything. It's the game's way of calculating where to shoot, which is why you may see the arrow acting erratic. It's just that it's not supposed to be visible. All skills need to know which direction to go to and what monster's to hit. That is why when you cast Soul Arrow on a rope or ladder, it always faces to the left. Return to top 6) Disconnecting with Pierce As you can tell from the name, some people have been disconnecting with Pierce. Fortunately, we already know the cause. The game's server will automatically disconnect you if you hit more than 99,999 damage. This was to prevent hackers from dealing huge amounts of damage. However, Pierce was meant to be able to surpass 99,999 damage. Currently, Pierce can deal damage up to 200,000, but anymore than that, and the user will disconnect. Also, some people may have been confusing Pierce with Snipe. I assure you, it is not Snipe that makes Marksmen disconnect. Snipe always hits more than 95,000 damage. Return to top Credits Special thanks to these contributors: wdiablo2004, sapphire8, smacksaw, intoxic, luckymango, illogik, zedex, vortexx01, kalderon, TechnoLink, link545, sybaris, tzkbowman, Reginleif, bluebomber24, kevvl13, sometinynuts, phoenix23, Armonia, Genrou, player1or2, Xenith, and Icedfire. A lot of thanks to GrifMoNeY again for letting the Archer Guide Forums repost his original F.A.Q. I would like to thank all of the members of this forum for their incredible effort in making this thread both accurate and accessible. I would also like to thank bokuwaomar for recognizing the thread as useful to the forum and making it a sticky. mrbasil deserves some thanks as well for creating such an awesome site. Return to top Replies
boo......... you suck-throws tomato- That is at spirt, btw. can I post your guide on web site?
TaHomeless said: "if it does it times in the Critical damage" This is where you have it wrong. It adds in the original input damage, before you multiply. So say, out of my damage range of 600-1000, the game chooses... let's say 885, just off the top of my head. The game takes that 885 and multiplies by 2.6, for Arrow Blow, making it 2301. Then it rolls a random number to see if it crits. Let's say this 885 does crit. In that case, the game adds another 885 - NOT 2301 - making the critical damage 2301+885 = 3186. Don't believe me? I'll prepare a screenshot.
sapphire8 said: " This is where you have it wrong. It adds in the original input damage, before you multiply. So say, out of my damage range of 600-1000, the game chooses... let's say 885, just off the top of my head. The game takes that 885 and multiplies by 2.6, for Arrow Blow, making it 2301. Then it rolls a random number to see if it crits. Let's say this 885 does crit. In that case, the game adds another 885 - NOT 2301 - making the critical damage 2301+885 = 3186. Don't believe me? I'll prepare a screenshot." O I believe you, you blew what I said out of proportion, I was explaining that for one arrow, not both. You took what I said and expanded it. But if I did manage to explain it as much as you did, I would be correct cause you made a mistake in explaining it. It doesn't add the same number twice, I do understand how this works, and I'm going to use my last statement to prove you all wrong. Double Shot has a wider range than Arrow Blow. It also has two arrows, obviously, making it a higher chance are more likely to hit no where near your average. You have a chance to hit your high but you also have an equal chance of hitting your low. This chance applies to every number that Double Shot will hit. This also makes it hard for Double Shot to hit really high. Since you use numbers so much, let me put some of my own in. I'll also make this realistic. Lets say your highest damage with critical is 2k (what a coincidence, so is mine) You have a 10% chance of hitting that. Your next highest is 1.9k, you have about a 12% chance there. This number keeps growing as the numbers keep going down, until it is around 1.6k or 1.7k. Now here is where Double Shot becomes weak. Your numbers are higher of hitting that 1.6k damage than your 2k. Now you're the one who does the math, and I'm gonna let you do that since it's late here and I'm tired, when you're tired you can't really think straight and chances are higher of making a mistake. I also suck at combining percentages, I only know how to make them. Anyways your chances are REALLY low of hitting that 3.6k. Off we go to the Arrow Blow here. Well you see, he has about a 10% chance of hitting his highest too. But o deary me, that highest at it's base is much higher than Double Shots, and I can't properly say what that number is, but I'll just take a random number that sounds right- 2.5k. O my, is this a base and it is higher than the one arrow of Double Shot already? As you can already guess, there is a 40% chance of hitting a Critical Shot (as you people say) and that is much much better than Double Shots 3.6k. I'm just guessing here but it lands somewhere around 5k with Critical Shot (there it goes again). O and just so you don't try and pull the "Double Shot is still better at average damage" move, Double Shot also has a lower chance of hitting the average you gave it since it, one last time I think, has two arrows. This is what went wrong with math and Archers with Double Shot. You hold Double Shot to a standard that it will be stable and hit a good average every time, but it can't hit the average as often as Arrow Blow will. Yes this sounds confusing but I did tell you to add everything you could to get the average and here it comes to bite you in the rear. And yea it seems to not make since cause your average is a number you should hit normally, but you have the wrong number as your average. Prove me wrong please? If you can, this may have been my victory post.
You're making me make that cumulative probability graph, aren't you.Let me tell you, I can. Sure as the sky is blue, it's 2008, this forum is for bowmen, and you're being stubborn, I can. But I'm not going to, because it doesn't take a cumulative probability graph to settle this problem. TaHomeless said: "I'm just guessing here but it lands somewhere around 5k with Critical Shot (there it goes again)." Did you read what I wrote? I said critical shot doesn't work that way. A 2.5k with Arrow Blow and no critical does not become a 5k with critical. It's somewhere around 3.4-3.5k with critical. Reread what I wrote and tell me you believe me. As for my math back there, it doesn't matter how unlikely it is that the DS user hits his maximum damage on both arrows. Because he is equally unlikely to hit his minimum damage on both arrows. You'll notice, in my sum, I didn't just take the highest damages. I took 3 highest hits, 3 lowest hits, 2 highest criticals, and 2 lowest criticals. Extreme good luck + extreme bad luck = neutral over time. And then for the AB user, yes, he has a higher chance of hitting his maximum each arrow, but conversely, he also has the same higher chance of hitting his minimum. Mild good luck + mild bad luck = neutral. Oh look, they're the same. Now that it's settled that the chance of hitting high and/or low is irrelevant, I refer you back to my calculations back there.
how bout the thread that explains why snipers dont get hurricane
Okay, I made my cumulative probability graph anyway, since I was bored and curious. With a damage range of 600-1000:Tinypic isn't censored anymore? Yay. It's actually a reverse cumulative probability graph. The y-axis is the chance of hitting x or higher damage. Red is AB, blue is DS. For example, if you want to know the chances of you hitting 3000 damage or more, find 3000 on the bottom, and trace it to the line. At 3000, the red line is just under 0.2, so you have a 20% chance to hit 3000+ with AB. The blue line is around 0.35, so you have a 35% chance to hit 3000+ with DS. If you want to know how I came up with this, think it through - carefully - and then PM me. It's a lot of stats, trust me. And yes, I could make a dynamic version that'll work with any damage range, but it'd be a lot of work, and I doubt people care enough. And no, I can't plot level 1 Strafe. I'd love to, but it's a bit too complicated to do using my method. And Mathematica doesn't have a "DiceRollDistribution" function.
2mbur2n said: "boo......... you suck Sure O.o-throws tomato- That is at spirt, btw. can I post your guide on web site?" You don't have to ask to borrow AGF property :P And I thought it was already on there. TaHomeless said: "Spiritrival: You need a damage range first. Yes you did some math, but that math means nothing if you don't have the correct numbers in it. What you did was times the chance of hitting it by the percent of the damage it would do. Even if you can do it without the damage range you did not add the 100 shots per minute into it. And if you do try to do the math again, learn your math rules. When you're going to times the damage range, do not times it by 360, 260, and 460, turn them into decimals. You may be wondering why you didn't need to do this for Strafe. Strafe has 100% when maxed, this means when it is a decimal it is 1. So when you times your damage range by it, it remains the same. We can keep it secret if we want, but if you're not willing to do the stuff for the Str.less and you did your math wrong on Double Shot and Arrow Blow, it leads me to believe you don't know what you're talking about......" 1) A damage range won't matter if the same damage range is being applied to both skills. If you multiply both sides of an inequality by 2, the one that was greater before, will still be greater. 2) What? I did add 100 shots per minute. 40/100 of the shots for Arrow Blow would be Critical, so I took 40/100 shots in that minute. 3) What does it matter? .4 is still the same as 40%. I know how to multiply, I just didn't show all my math because I thought it was unnecessary. 4) How did Strafe come into this? 5) I did my math correctly for both skills and I don't want to calculate Str-less damage ranges because I'm lazy (although not too lazy to defend myself). I hate finding out how much Str, Dex, and Atk each character has even if it will only take a minute. Anyone else reminded of the guy who wrote that Final Attack guide like last year or whatever? Boo..people are talking in my thread. I should probably just change all the links to just go to page 1 instead of updating it every page >.>
ooonumbery argument...lots of good info in it but I get that odd feelings that its the kind of information that I did not need to know -_- because I must make everything simple for me would this just about sum it up? DS>average dmg then AB DS greater chance to crit crit does addition not multiplication
Awsomemo said: "ooo Pretty much yeah. We're trying to explain to him why it is that way though. numbery argument...lots of good info in it but I get that odd feelings that its the kind of information that I did not need to know -_- because I must make everything simple for me would this just about sum it up? DS>average dmg then AB DS greater chance to crit crit does addition not multiplication"
spiritrival said: "Pretty much yeah. We're trying to explain to him why it is that way though." ooo and thats where the numbers come in...so I'll make this simple for me again -_- *simple form* (maxed DS at best) (+ crit on one arrow) (+ crit on other arrow) 130% + 130% + 100% + 100% best case scenario=460% (Maxed AB at best) (+ crit) 260% + 100% best case scenario=360% 460%>360% of course the chance for the best case scenario for double shot is less then arrow blow because it requires both arrows to crit (each arrow being 40% chance to crit) but as...but the chance of it it hitting more then the base 130% is higher then arrow blows chance of hitting its 260%...or so I think as sapphire8 said Extreme good luck + extreme bad luck = neutral (DS) Mild good luck + mild bad luck = neutral (AB)
Awsomemo said: "ooo Yeah. and thats where the numbers come in...so I'll make this simple for me again -_- *simple form* (maxed DS at best) (+ crit on one arrow) (+ crit on other arrow) 130% + 130% + 100% + 100% best case scenario=460% (Maxed AB at best) (+ crit) 260% + 100% best case scenario=360% 460%>360% of course the chance for the best case scenario for double shot is less then arrow blow because it requires both arrows to crit (each arrow being 40% chance to crit) but as...but the chance of it it hitting more then the base 130% is higher then arrow blows chance of hitting its 260%...or so I think as sapphire8 said Extreme good luck + extreme bad luck = neutral (DS) Mild good luck + mild bad luck = neutral (AB)"
Spiritrival, I'm sorry for saying what I said about your math, I would explain everything in there, but that is old, and this is farther than that.Awsomemeo, I have already seen those numbers, they have gone in and out of my brain and this time I'm keeping them out. And let me say this to prove it wrong. Bad luck chances are higher than good luck chances because your good luck chances always require a Critical. Your bad luck chances, well they are all giddy about this and don't need any Critical. Sometimes these bad luck numbers are so bad, the Critical changes nothing, it just makes it a bad looking Critical. O and Critical times, not adds, how do you add 260% in? It is 260% damage of what the original is, and to get that number you turn it into a decimal and you times that decimal by the number and you get the correct number. And Spiritrival missed this? You tell me Now here is were your Arrow Blow comes in all happy and playful. Its low damage is higher than Double Shot's. And since Double Shot has a real low chance of hitting higher than Arrow Blow (yes sapphire I saw the graph and I'll get to you in a sec), Arrow Blow will hit the high hit more often. Now if Arrow Blow was better, you would know this already, but you still think Double Shot is better. Now sapphire, your turn. Are you really sure those lines are the correct lines? Maybe you got mixed up? Cause one arrow is more stable than two, and that thing says your one arrow has a dramatic drop earlier, despite the stability. I wouldn't call you a liar and I most certainly won't say you did your math wrong, but something seems wrong and foul, and things must be hinted. If you want me to give up, prove me wrong, and show that you're not afraid to use my numbers, then use mine. I have seen my Double Arrow damage, I can recognize it, and if the chances of hitting a number are too high, then something is wrong. Only one person has used my numbers, but not the people who everything thinks can prove me wrong, Spiritrival was so focused on what I first said that he didn't go to my later things, and he didn't even prove anything or try to do so with the actual argument. And you? Well you made up two numbers, two numbers are good, but I specifically gave you my range so you people could show me I am wrong with my numbers. A smart person would know that if you want to prove me wrong, do it by using my own argument. I already gave you that, and it has been sitting there for a while. Sorry to put you through more trouble, but you ignored me, I wonder what else you're ignoring. To all: you are all under the impression that more is always better, but 2+2 will never be better than 5. This can be were I lose, but you need to take advantage of what I gave you, take advantage and since you're not proving me wrong on what I said before, you're leaving me very little choices but I won't go down. You haven't proven me wrong on a few things and you just left them there, maybe I skipped them, but if I did, you posted twice and I just went with the second ones. If you didn't, you skipped a big big big big big big big part, are you ignoring me more? I feel so lonely, no one joins me, and everyone wants to prove me wrong. But hey, that makes it all better, if one person can prove 5 wrong, I get a bigger boost. This could be my last post since sapphire may do the right thing and prove me wrong, but I doubt this happening. Edit: Sapphire, you did post twice, make your next argument strong, cause after that I'm not listening, you have not used the numbers I gave you, you posted twice and there is something wrong with that but I can't remember. And kevvl proved me correct, but I'm gonna save it for later. O and I found something that destroys parts of your argument, it questions your math. Find it and fix it before anyone notices :O. Everyone here trusts you so when this comes out, well what else could you have done wrong? I want to give you a clue, cause I'm kind, and I want you to win. It has something to do with proving me wrong, and it has critical somewhere in there. Now I'm all giddy, the smart person has done something wrong and no one but me noticed :D. This just in, I now know how to prove Arrow Blow can hit it's higher numbers easier. It's so simple that I should have said it first. But convince me you're right before I tell you, do your best
Listen, I admire your ambition. People like you are here to challenge the norm. Your the kind of guy that proves the earth is round.But your also the guy that wont admit the sun is the center of the solar system (figuratively). I understand where you are coming from. Because AB has a lower max, you think its more stable, and because DS has a lower chance to hit its max, you think its weaker. You also think AB is more stable (which it very well might be) So here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to write a program to SIMULATE damages with the range of 600~1000. Now I can't tell if you understand how crit works, and frankly i don't care. We've well established that critical shot adds 100% of the initial random number to the skill. So AB with critical becomes 390% and DS with two crits becomes 460% (290+100 and (130+100)*2 respectively). This is long since proven. (I'm using the new 290% AB) So this will pick a number between 600~1000, then figure out of it gets a critical or not. No averages, no nothing. This is the ACTUAL damage you'd see in maplestory with a range of 600~1000. I'll be doing 100 "shots" with each skill. (A shot counts as hitting the attack button). Then we just add it all together and see which one does more damage. This is real maplestory (as real as we'll get without actually doing it ingame). I'm writing the program now, I'll post the results as soon as I'm done. Should only take like 20 minutes. If you so want we can also see what percent of each skill hit its lowest 10% of damage and highest. EDIT: Going out to eat, do it when I get back
The last part is ok, we don't need it, can you do me a favor though? Add all the damage to a total, I want to know if the damage these people hold it up to be will be a good damage. I'm gonna make a little prediction: since AB needs only one arrow for its high damage, it will hit the high damage more, but DS will get close to AB in total, because it will hit the high, and that high will give it a boost. I'm thinking this boost will not be enough. Thank you for your hard or easy work into making this simulation and ending this debate once and for all. Can't wait, I'll be a little slow to responding, I need to take a shower.
DS Prediction: the average of 600 and 1000 is 800, double shot deals an average of 340%, and we are doing 100 shots. Thus I predict a value close to 272,000AB Prediction: same stuff but AB does an average of 330%, thus I predict close to 264,000 Double shot trials (critical in bold): 1934 1053 912 1566 1288 860 1564 1738 803 1465 1133 798 2129 2300 812 1538 1076 1127 781 2030 2106 960 837 829 837 802 1819 1214 1020 1384 1646 809 1188 2171 798 1233 1245 808 799 1527 1027 1088 1725 2297 1575 1529 1727 1264 1060 911 1610 1180 1895 2083 1062 1081 825 1582 1840 1476 1229 1129 1053 2102 981 2067 921 1396 2267 1092 1492 1846 1216 1941 789 1112 1918 1465 1281 971 1439 1782 1978 795 1125 962 1288 1400 1093 876 1812 934 1049 1036 1227 834 1991 1644 1658 1017 963 1145 787 873 1874 1271 1695 1099 1115 2120 1015 910 806 1462 1600 1255 2145 1166 1518 1637 1115 1046 2212 1189 1245 1803 1007 1639 1883 1110 1047 1280 1603 1150 2102 990 1064 1017 925 1189 1837 1621 1102 1081 2162 1524 991 942 1075 785 1925 1561 1886 1225 2102 2014 1945 1050 2118 1669 1559 794 1250 941 960 1012 1055 2208 2244 833 1835 1635 868 1754 1257 1099 1196 1137 980 1111 1132 1158 1485 1959 1856 1290 824 2196 2288 1941 1777 1285 1046 1212 1086 934 1784 895 2233 1255 Sum of 273035 Arrow Blow trials: 1969 1853 2784 2418 2343 2644 2470 2640 2363 2398 2772 2900 2776 3447 2119 2009 2346 3229 1800 2247 2128 2380 2445 2839 2398 2166 2557 3361 3701 3728 2209 3545 3786 2850 2347 3264 1873 2172 2827 2293 2082 2589 1792 2401 2624 2597 3798 3845 2583 2195 2367 2105 2401 3069 2572 1908 2749 3155 2250 2831 3268 2836 2847 2979 2813 2195 3705 2363 2386 2508 3802 1919 2363 2064 3412 2122 3708 3818 2398 2821 3240 1934 2831 2351 2685 2569 2372 3322 2108 2612 3198 2099 2096 3525 2698 2064 3100 3315 2889 3170 Sum of 266814 As predicted, the DS trial gave a total damage of 273,035 (272,000 predicted) and the AB trial gave 266,814 (264,000 predicted) I hope now you can see that averages are what we are taking. Yes, sometimes DS may hit both low, yes AB may hit one high, but again, like Sap said: AB can hit low the same probability it can hit high, thus averaging out DS can hit low twice the same probability as it hits high twice. For more accuracte predictions I can do more trials. Here's 1000 shtos (I wont post individual damage for space purpose, only totals) 1000 shots: DS prediction 2,720,000 AB prediction 2,640,000 1st trial: DS: 2,703,341 AB: 2,619,063 2nd trial: DS: 2,710,804 AB: 2,640,723 Now 100,000 shots, lol. DS prediction 272,000,000 AB prediction 264,000,000 1st trial: DS:271,871,631 AB: 264,111,176 2nd trial: DS: 272,035,293 AB: 263,875,287 As you can see, yes on a 1 shot basis AB may outdamage DS, or vise versa, but overtime only the average damage matters, which because DS is 340% average and AB is 330% average, DS>AB in terms of damage output over time. And because your using this skill from roughly level 20~71, you definitely have enough time for DS to put out more damage. Just so you know how I arrived at averages. AB: 290% base. +100% critical but only 40% of the time. So there's a 40% critical will happen, and a 60% it wont happen. So you have 390% damage 40% of the time, and 290% damage 60% of the time. 390*.4+290*.6 = 330 DS has 130% per shot. Each shot has a 40% chance of critical and there are 2 shots, thus there's 3 possible outcomes. Not critical (36% of the time. Each arrow has a 60% chance of no critical, and there are two, thus its a 36% chance of getting no crits on either arrow) A 40% chance of getting 1 critical on either arrow, BUT, a 60% chance of not getting it on the other arrow. That's a 24% chance, but because there's two possibilities (first arrow gets crit, second doesn't and the vise versa), its 48% chance of 1 arrow crit And a 16% chance of getting two criticals. Of course 36+48+16=100%, which makes sense. 0 crits adds up to 260% damage 1 crit adds up to 360% damage 2 crits adds up to 460% damage. Thus 260*.36 + 360*.48 + 460*.16 = 340% I didn't say anything we haven't said before, I just used a simulation. And by the good ole law of large numbers, everything will average out over time to its true averages. |
