General

@nitsu2789: Shinsoku is actually a little bit less than 15 hits/s with the +1 hyper buff. That aside, overall damage output when using it is pretty much Shinsoku, your stance circle, and DoT (which is almost impossible to cap on). Under perfect/dummy dojo conditions, Hayato's damage output is something like 45b-47b/min (and Shinsoku stops after 12 seconds, so you need to recast).

It's also a good idea not to compare raw skill %'s. Passives and buffs within the skillset are important to include, too. Damage steroids (Cross Surge for DrK/Phantom, for example) make capping a lot easier for low % skills.

@repentant: Yep. The information is more relevant to endgame (so capping), but if you're at the hard speed cap, Rai Sanrenzan's damage output is better than Shinsoku's.

@chickensoul: Wait what really?

I am so going to solo Normal Magnus using Sanrenzan today.

@ulieq: Okay, let's pretend for a moment that Rai Blade Flash wasn't a 4th job skill. Why is this such a big deal? It's strange that you're complaining about needing to use a 1st job skill as a HAYATO of all things, because in case you haven't realised, using every skill from every job advancement is the entire point of their playstyle.

Or are you annoyed that you waited until 4th job for Shinsoku but it didn't do enough damage to replace your skills? Well I'll tell you now, Hayato isn't the sort of class where all your skills become obsolete after taking your job advancement. If you want to play a class where 1st, 2nd, 3rd job skills become useless after level 100, there are literally over 20 other classes to choose from. Go play one of those. You clearly don't enjoy Hayato, so why do you continue posting when there are so many other classes you could be happy with (especially if you already happen to be playing them)?

From my understanding Shinsoku is still better than stuff like Kinesis BPM, Corsair Rapid Fire, etc. With the +1 line hyper it comes out to like 15 hits/s total with 300% damage. BPM on the other hand is 11 hits/s with 150% dmg, Rapid Fire is 300% dmg with only 8.333 hits/s. Unless I'm severely mistaken about that speed, I haven't actually played my Hayato much beyond 120.

Same thing,

@ulieq: Might wanna check again, buddy. RAI Blade Flash is, most definitely, a fourth job skill. If you mean just Blade Flash (which is the first job skill), you would be wrong. 180% isn't better than Shinsoku. Jin Blade Flash (the second job skill) is also weaker than Shinsoku. Fuu and Rai Blade Flash (third and fourth) are the ones that start crushing Shinsoku in terms of DPS for low/semi-funded people.

@repentant: The kicker is that Rai Sanrenzan is still better than Shinsoku, just not at level 1 anymore.

Uh no, Rai Blade Flash is not a 4th job skill.

This thread brings back memories. Remember when level 1 Sanrenzan did as much damage as level 30 Shinsoku? Good times.

@ulieq: Talk about reviving old threads. Rai Blade Flash is a 4th job skill, by the way.

Not going to happen in Reboot.

@ulieq: depends on how you look at it. shinsoku is way better than rai blade once you start dishing out 35mil lines in terms of dps and hps

Shinsoku is too weak. You need all 3 active hyper skill points to make it give out better dps (when taking boss defense into account) than rai blade flash, a 1st job skill.

@fighterdoken: Exactly the same as the new regular shinsoku (looks like the Phantom keydown skill), but with one more line.

EDIT: Just learned that the beginner skill that gives us 20% dodge will now also give us 75% mastery. Holy crap, that means we hit 95% before literally any other class. Our main source of damage instability with be crit multiplier, not base damage.

shimada heart (big deal) and our mastery is bugged. right now in GMS, shimada heart only adds to our upper range, making our already wide range gap even bigger. as for the mastery, we passively have 60% from our skill, but we should have an additional 20% just from being a physical melee class.

it's suppose to be
Physical melee: 20%+SkillMastery
Physical ranged: 15%+SkillMastery
Magic: 25%+SkillMastery

which is 80% for us, but our range doesn't reflect that at all. i'm not sure what's going on with that, perhaps we're not classified as a physical melee class? don't know. shimada heart is working fine in JMS (a jms hayato showed me his range, much tighter gap and looks similar to other classes). i'm not sure about the mastery, but they are giving us 75% mastery with the revamp so it should be non-issue once it hits GMS.

[quote=demodango]I'll make mine simple, and also note the upcoming revamp of Hayato's skills.
Currently, Hayato's worst aspects are:
-Mastery issues, as said in OP.
-Shinsoku's speed, also in OP (delay is almost 1 sec at base speed, wtf)
-Dependence on the buffs from dodging, which are hard to maintain at the highest level bosses (because the easiest attacks to force a dodge proc on just [i]happen[/i] to be un-dodgeable).

Hayato is and always will be a crit monster, and I like that a lot. It should stay, and fortunately it does in the revamp.

Revamp changes worth noting:
-Shinsoku becomes a strong keydown skill, working in much the same way as Phantom's with a slightly longer windup (like the old Hurricane, but faster)
-Assumes two different "stances" to specialize in mobbing/bossing at different times, switching stances has no apparent delay
-No longer needs stance at any time while bossing, as all attacks gain a step-forward trait
-Total dodge chance is higher
-New 4thjob skill that multiplicatively increases enemies' damage taken when hit
-Damage-boosting ultimate skill now has no cooldown, instead consuming "Blade power" points accumulated by attacking and killing mobs
-Sanrenzan deals a lot more damage and has lower delay on the first and third hit (higher on 2nd, but only slightly)[/quote]

I just want to know if theres any videos of a 200+ hayato in JMS with the hyper skills leveled so i can see what the hyper shinsoku looks like t.t

I'll make mine simple, and also note the upcoming revamp of Hayato's skills.
Currently, Hayato's worst aspects are:
-Mastery issues, as said in OP.
-Shinsoku's speed, also in OP (delay is almost 1 sec at base speed, wtf)
-Dependence on the buffs from dodging, which are hard to maintain at the highest level bosses (because the easiest attacks to force a dodge proc on just [i]happen[/i] to be un-dodgeable).

Hayato is and always will be a crit monster, and I like that a lot. It should stay, and fortunately it does in the revamp.

Revamp changes worth noting:
-Shinsoku becomes a strong keydown skill, working in much the same way as Phantom's with a slightly longer windup (like the old Hurricane, but faster)
-Assumes two different "stances" to specialize in mobbing/bossing at different times, switching stances has no apparent delay
-No longer needs stance at any time while bossing, as all attacks gain a step-forward trait
-Total dodge chance is higher
-New 4thjob skill that multiplicatively increases enemies' damage taken when hit
-Damage-boosting ultimate skill now has no cooldown, instead consuming "Blade power" points accumulated by attacking and killing mobs
-Sanrenzan deals a lot more damage and has lower delay on the first and third hit (higher on 2nd, but only slightly)

As most people will probably say, it's damage output relative to other classes. An additional note about the disadvantages of bossing as a Hayato: for endgame bosses that have no attacks you can "guard" against to proc your Willow Dodge stacks, you're losing a 30% boost in your damage output just from being unable to use one of your best buffs. At that point in funding, that's a LOT of potential damage you've lost. I'd make a point about Counterstrike procing damage reflect, but as of right now, there are ways to work around that, and the revamp (should it arrive) will fix the problem.

Shinsoku might very well be another deal breaker for people considering Hayatos, as the percentage on the skill is lower than most, if not all, existing hurricane skills (which are meant to be weak but fast), and is fairly slow in comparison. Using other attacks in combination for bossing is effective, but it's dependent on how much control you have. After all, making a mistake in comboing skills can lead to heavy delays, placing you in a bad position for certain boss environments. It's a lot of extra effort and funding that you won't get out of people unless they genuinely enjoy playing the class (and are willing to dish out the money or put in the hefty amounts of time to build up to that point).

I feel that the biggest issue with my Hayato (your mileage may vary) is damage output. I have a few characters with similar equipment (more accurately, the 8th anniversary set) and, while other characters can completely wipe out 8-10 enemies in one attack, it requires multiple attacks and chaining to do the same. It simply feels a bit unecissary. When it comes to actual bossing, this also ends up with a real deficiency, as our primary 1v1 skill just doesn't cut it.

That doesn't mean that Hayato is bad per se - I've noticed their mobbing is exceptional, capable of hitting multiple enemies at a good distance, something most warriors simply don't do. Combined with their mobility, they can do a lot for training overall. I like to believe that Hayato is the "Luminous of the Warrior class" - fantastic mobbing and training... not too good fighting bosses.

There's also the fact that JMS likes giving us low skill %s. Our skills only increase by 1-2% damage per level up and our mobbing skill does more damage than our 1v1 skill for 90 entire levels. Whether this was intended or just a silly oversight, I have no idea, but our skill %s are in serious need of adjustment. Though as long as we're fun to play I don't mind that our class is weak.

In regards to combos to use during bossing: I put my hyper points into Falcon Dive and I use a combo of Falcon Dive->3x Sanrenzan->turn around->repeat during bossing. It probably does less damage than Shinsoku w/ hypers (I haven't noticed a difference tbh) but I like this combo because it allows for more wiggle room to combo into other skills if I need to dodge an attack. Shinsoku leaves me vulnerable during the entirety of its animation and it doesn't flow well with the rest of our skills, so I hate using it.

[quote=dablunt]I think its because of the amount of funding required for Hayatos to be "good" at bossing. Now when I say good I mean people that want to solo bosses fast. Now when you said you tested the damage difference between you and your Drk friend you said you are equally funded, what does that mean? Do you both the same exact/similar type of gear (%str, %att, %TD, PDR)? Or do you have the same exact/similar damage range? What skills where you using?[/quote]

We adjusted it after the exact range (give or take 1-5k)
We both used hypers. Not sure what he used, but I used Falcon's Honor and Hitokiri Strike. Both our most powerful skills did the same. Summer Rain was not tested for obvious reasons.

We were going to test normal basic skills, but since Hayato's is a combo skill and doesn't hit as many rows, we went with the most powerful 4thjob skill we both had + one hyper (apart from SR)

I think its because of the amount of funding required for Hayatos to be "good" at bossing. Now when I say good I mean people that want to solo bosses fast. Now when you said you tested the damage difference between you and your Drk friend you said you are equally funded, what does that mean? Do you both the same exact/similar type of gear (%str, %att, %TD, PDR)? Or do you have the same exact/similar damage range? What skills where you using?

Is there a TLR