General

@cannoneer: IMO, not sure it'd be as productive as you'd think. It'd be productive if both sides can look to the commonalities that they share with their opposition, including things that at first glance may look like opposite values, and devise solutions that everyone can share some agreement upon (especially in an issue like this one) while at the same time not arguing over certain things they can't get past as is the case with this discussion. That extends beyond the personal jabs and trolling.

Also: 1) If you're asking me personally, I don't admit to being the most well-versed on the subject. I'm generally busy IRL, so that extends to information about the current topics I am aware of, as well as whether or not I'll even be available to debate. I generally like to do my research beforehand, which takes time. Also, 2) I will just say also that I am not American, so my perspective is not going to be the same as yours, and that should be taken note of should you actually continue on this discussion with others (as a suggestion - could be a potential roadblock).

Edit: Will add that especially with very current issues (and given that Trump is still very, very early into his presidency), information can easily change over time, which changes the nature of the debate. For example, the story of the man from Detroit whose mother had died in Iraq as reported by the media, but later on was found out that the man was lying even from the same sources. Regardless of whether or not you believe news sources like CNN are fake news (and it's not like I think they have no bias in their coverage - they obviously do, as do any other news source), I'm hesitant to proclaim that other sources are exactly immune from making similar mistakes even into the future.

@xreniya: Why voice chat only? Three reasons:

- If people are anywhere near as adamant or knowledgeable about these topics as they act on Basil, they should be able to articulate that while keeping up in a real-time conversation. I'm not excluding myself from this statement or being condescending either. If someone wants to record it, have at it.

- It will keep trolls from both sides out of the room.

- It's more fun that way. Doesn't have to be some angry argument or serious debate; just people shooting the sh-- about whatever they'd like and having a good time after. Would be a cool way for people to get to know each other, too. I'm just fed up with keyboards and posting. Real interactions > keyboard speak.

I'm on eastern time again for future reference. I doubt very many people would be willing to do this, though. We'll see. Gotta go to storage and unpack some crap now. TOODLES.

As a green card holder, I can say that I was disappointed. These people wait years to come to the Unites States. And at arrival, we get vetted heavily, fingerprinted, have same rights as Americans but cannot vote. Then after 5 years we gotta travel many hundreds of miles to just be finger-printed and checked again or be deported.

Now I am fine with the above, but when you attack a group that undergoes a lot of vetting, that's just not right. I also denounce terrorism, but you are much more likely to die by another American.

That's like riding a car instead of a plane, because you are afraid of a plane crashing. But dying in a car is 2,200 times more likely.

@xreniya: lol I was almost about to link you to this thread

this is better than any grind time rap battle i ever watched, when @vivabasura mixtape drop im definitely buying that

why is the discord voice chat only

@cloudedfate: The only way a person is protected by the Constitution of the United States is if they're a citizen or standing on U.S. soil

lol if it dont affect me i dont care

@zoglinemusic ya
Like, there are over a billion Muslims in the world, but only 7 countries are being blocked.
EDIT: how is this an issue

What is this? I've been doing homework, working, sometimes eating, and sleeping for the past ~75 hours.

@cloudedfate: Would be a good way to sort those people out of it. Anyway, done in here now unless people start bringing more compelling stuff to the table. The same talking points have been regurgitated a thousand times and I can't take it seriously anymore. It's like looking at a FaceBook comment section or a Tumblr page. Hopefully some people are willing to talk and we can all coordinate a time.

I'm not leaving without dropping my own little one-liner, though. TRUMP WON. Y'ALL LOST. Carry on, citizens of Basil.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vj98uvTCiww&t=2s

@cannoneer you'd have to be really really careful about who joins, some people just can't debate without their emotions getting hurt. The other day me and my friends were discussing the existence of god and other philosophy such as that in class and then our group it was a great convo, my friends had great thoughts, quite interesting tbh, but then this girl overheard us saying god's just a concept and doesn't make sense and then she just lost it, she's generally a really really cool girl, but not everyone is meant to talk about this stuff.

anyways ill pass on the debate discord, i don't have time to do my research now days . if anything happens i might join just to spectate.

@cannoneer: i'd be willing to join

@vivabasura: I've got to admit, Trump does draw his support from the Crazies and Fanatics groups. Just last night one of them shot up an church killing 5.

Who wants to set up a Discord (voice chat only) or some sort of group call to have discussions and debates? I'd be down and I'm willing to be 100% civil. Doesn't seem like politics or anything controversial on here ever develops into anything further than personal jabs and memes. I'm guilty as charged from time to time as well; hence why I'm putting this offer out as a longshot for anyone that's interested. Seems more productive than staying in this chat section and y'all could record it and upload it, too.

Anyone want to organize this and set up a time? Don't really care what the issue is about. Give your stance and let's have some fun.

Immigration, refugees, nationalism, borders, etc.
Racism, BLM, feminism, religion, etc.
Eastern Europe or the Middle East.
Coal and oil.
Taxes, capitalism and socialism.
Male circumcision and abortion.
Obama, Hillary, and Trump.
California secession and Brexit.

Those are the most common issues that get brought up around here recently. Sign me up if anyone else wants to.

@vivabasura: Yes, this thread has amounted to nothing because we have different opinions than @cannoneer.

I also find it funny howonce you disagree with a conservative, you're automatically "labeled" a liberal.

@cannoneer: i was dragged to this thread because of @zoglinemusic: false claims, i have no interest in you in case you didnt notice

im not gonna argue about your dumb views, be a nationalist, think and do whatever you want idgaf

@vivabasura: The circle-jerk of likes and empty posting continues. This thread has amounted to nothing.

@zoglinemusic: "Also, you're wrong. It does not mention a ban on Muslims at all. Perhaps you should take the time to read it." you are the one not reading it dude
it clearly points out it'll accept people with the religion of a minority, muslim is majority's religion in those places if thats not obvious enough
cant say nobody refutes your claims when everything goes over your head

@cannoneer:
yeah i know theres plenty of people right out from /r/The_Donald/ pretending to be man in manly man forums

@mystiicaran: Nobody would agree with what holds them back. Can't they go to Germany/Sweden like most of the others (or did they ruin those countries already)? The US is too far anyways.

I'm not supportive of what Trump's doing, I just dislike your "puppy dog eyes" argument. There are times we must choose to care for ourselves (citizens) instead of others or we would get taken advantage of, or run out of supplies to support everyone.

@mystiicaran: I have thought about it multiple times. I would not throw a fit over some countries we have conflicts and wars with banning me for a while. I'd anticipate it and go somewhere else. The world is pretty big, you know. I'm also very familiar with feeling like some of my rights are being stripped away and I hardly trust my own government. Everyone's still too fixated on emotions and race. Look at the bigger picture.

@cannoneer: You gotta be careful of what you support. What, you think because you're a citizen of the United States you're not susceptible to your rights being restricted? If the U.S can take away their rights, they can do the same to you.

Put yourself in their shoes, imagine being persecuted here in the United States for your beliefs. You would want to seek refuge in another country too. And what If they denied you the right to migrate into their country? You wouldn't agree with that, would you?

So why would you want these people's rights taken away from them. Think about that...

Even if Muslims are barred from entering and some people have ameliorated fear, we still have to face domestic terrorism, our own forms of extremism, racism, the banality of evil, and the backlash that comes from the Muslim ban. We still have yet to use our resources effectively to combat this.

@cannoneer: so the us has this law for 90 day in the uae countries which experienced revolutions arent allowed to come here unless their here for visiting only if they try to work they will get a retinal? scan then deported immediatly banning them forever to come again they caused so much problems at one point they incited some action
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_United_Arab_Emirates#2011.E2.80.93present
see what they tried to do

@readers: Disagreements aside, thank you for being one of the few reasonable people in this one today.

@basedmsguy: I don't understand. Please clarify. I still stand behind my opinion on that argument. The argument's basis on the circular premise that Muslims are the cause of Muslim problems (according to its logic) isn't any better than the premises I've given. That argument also doesn't give any distinction between religion and race beyond this circular premise (in many ways it just generalizes Muslims as a group as a whole), therefore I think the logic holds.

As for the rest of this argument, I'd like many of you to actually read the thing closely before you discuss this further. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/27/us/politics/refugee-muslim-executive-order-trump.html?_r=0
The order does not directly state a ban on Muslims. It is, as stated earlier, a 90 day suspension of entry into the U.S. for all those coming from affected countries. The list of banned countries is a modification from a previous list (for travel restrictions) by the Department of Homeland Security. (See [url=https://www.dhs.gov/news/2016/02/18/dhs-announces-further-travel-restrictions-visa-waiver-program]here.[/url]) Trump, in that sense, is really just only modifying an already pre-existing list.

Now, I do believe that there are reasons to disagree with this order without question. While the reasons outlined by others in their arguments may either be misinformed or are stated without all the information given, there is a clear line of sentiment that I don't think should be ignored. In that sense, there are legitimate concerns. However, I do think that it helps to be properly informed so that this whole discussion doesn't devolve into a whole state of arguing over different syntax and their respective semantics.

@zoglinemusic: Oh... I didn't think you'd be actually that petty so I went back to playing Mount and Blade, but fine whatever.
So, lets do this step by step.

-

"It's not a religion ban, it's a region ban."
Those two are not mutually exclusive, it is a Religious ban on Muslims from 7 countries.
- "90% of Muslims in the world are still allowed to travel to the United States."
So what? That's like someone saying "Who cares if I cut off your left Thumb, you still have 90% of your fingers left".
- "ALL people in the 7 affected countries, not just Muslims, are included in the travel ban. The order does not single out (or even mention) Islam or Muslims. The order is not a ban, but a temporary halt lasting 90 days, while Homeland Security strengthens its immigration vetting process.""
Laws don't do that. For example The Immigration act of 1924 best known for the quota system and expanding the Chinese exclusion act to nearly all Asians said nothing about banning Asians. All the act said was ineligible aliens were barred from entering as immigrants. I can give several more examples off the top of my head if need be.
- "The 7 countries were chosen because the Obama Administration had banned all citizens from (and even past visitors to) these countries from the Visa Waiver Program, citing high levels of terrorist activity in them."
Why not include Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, ya know the ones who actually train/fund a crap ton of terrorist.

@vivabasura: It's just you. This is a forum for an anime game based out of California that appeals to mostly unemployed teenagers and a lot of females. Doesn't take any insight to realize a recipe like this will attract a lot of libs. The real world will hit you hard.

Want to feel like a minority? I could share some truck, gun, computer, or welding forums I regularly go to. See how you like it in those off-topic sections.

is it me or trump doesnt have supporters at this point, just some fanatics
too blind to see he is full of bs
@zoglinemusic: lol it is a muslim ban as it didnt affect christians in those countries (or any minority religion as the executive order points out)
also stop insulting people for having different opinions, go back to /pol/, a safeplace for people like you

@cannoneer: She had potential, I spoke with her some time ago briefly and I found a lot of similarities between both of us. However I shortly found out that I disdain the type of person she is.

@zoglinemusic: I was only responding to what LazyLazyLazy said and noticed your brief comment on the side. I figured the other guy could handle you. If you care that much I'll go back and read all your comments and make a response for it. However I'd much rather just go back to playing Mount and Blade. It's up to you.

@lokithestrange: You watch your mouth about that Russian chick.

@cloudedfate: Beer's on me!

@nolen: Let me guess that was from the dumbass Russian chick right? Son, I got my Masters in this field, and I am already almost a year into my 3-year PHD program in it. Going off the top of my head, that one Albania, the only European country with a majority of her population practicing Islam is completely false. This person states that the "nations experience unfettered persecution of non-believers of all other religions (including non-conforming Muslims), sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Shariah law as a weapon, and jizya, the tax placed on infidels." which does not describe the country in the slightest. Albania is a secular country and that whole part about Shariah law is completely false, it hasn't been true since the 1930's.
- Question anything, take everything you read on Basilmarket and Reddit (you said you go there iirc) with a grain of salt. Here is a list of countries with high Christian populations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_by_country You can apply everything that person said in their random ass note to Christian countries as well. Just looking out for you mate, ya don't want to caught saying something dumb/racist in public.
- -
@zoglinemusic: Umm it is a ban on Muslism. Don't watch solely Fox News or Breitbart, it's not good for you. Basically what the order does is prevent Muslims from 7 countries from entering the US for 90 days. However it was implemented horribly (and it's a crappy, useless order to make Middle America and the South feel good about themselves), lawful people entering the country (Green cards and Visa) were detained and forcibly removed from these United States as soon as they landed. Luckily federal judges stopped this immediately so the lawful persons currently trapped in the airport cannot be forced to return to their home countries. Given how this order blatantly violates the current immigration laws it will be turned over shortly, but until that happens the Muslims, and Muslims alone from 7 countries will be barred from entered for 90 days even though they have had acquired prior approval already.

@cannoneer hope no one got butt hurt in this thread
we all still bros

@cloudedfate: Added a few more sentences to my post. I'm pretty much out of this now too. It's Basil...

You suck, I suck, we all suck.

@zoglinemusic im not defending anything, i have no reason to refute your points, im just saying my own point and leaving it there, i give in dude

@cloudedfate: That may be true, but it'll no doubt make it harder for the time being. I just want you to explain to me how it's blatant racism. On a related note, I'd like someone to explain to me how wanting borders or the enforcement of immigration laws that have already been in place is inherently racist as well. I'm still waiting because nobody has. I'll be waiting a long time, and have been on here for months, because nobody can. Hell, this forum has a ton of liberals and Asians. Why doesn't Japan face the same scrutiny as we are now? They're historically one of the most nationalist countries, they have a strong desire to preserve their culture and traditions, and they have very strict immigration laws towards Muslims and foreigners in general. The left (don't worry, my party has problems as well) would have more ground to stand on in debates if they argued substance/policy instead of always appealing to emotion and throwing out buzzwords. For example, your point about Saudi Arabia would be a good conversation or debate. Almost everyone is in agreement about the disastrous way things have gone regarding our involvement in the Middle East at some point or another.

Trump did not win because of racism. Everyone has personal bias and cultural preferences (it's an evolutionary thing), but genuine, dangerous racism and the people who act on those emotions are far from prevalent.

@cannonner I don't think that banning legal immigrants will stop extremists from coming either way. What I find quite sad is that a few muslim countries that are responsible for many terrorist attacks were not banned (most notably saudiarabia) simply because profit

@upcomingnerd yea man there are alot of ways to defend racism. not saying his facts are wrong, they're just completely ignoring my point. i'm gonna give in now, opinions are opinions and i don't have the patience nor the time to counter every point and do extensive research to explain my thoughts.

what im scared about are the racists who think its ok to be racist because of what trump says. all in all i hope that things turn over and america does well.

@cloudedfate: lol You're getting rekt

@cloudedfate: No, I don't think it's racist. Take a look at which overwhelmingly Muslim countries are still able to freely travel in and out of the States and then take a hard look at which ones have been blocked - and why. How can anyone possibly believe we'd block immigration for absolutely no reason other than race? I agree that Trump's character and the way he words things is questionable, though. Have never denied that. Radicals being a small % is irrelevant if they account for a large percentage of the problems. It's precautionary.

@zoglinemusic
Islam is not a race.
Discrimination against religion doesn't have a word.
Closest thing is racism (followed by bigotry,xenophobia, or just literally religious discrimination).
It's a ban on Muslim countries.
It's a ban on innocent legal Muslim immigrants from Muslim countries that Trump doesn't like.
You're an idiot.

@cannoneer so you don't think banning several muslim countries because of islamic radicals (believe it or no less than 0.005% of the entire muslim population) is not racist? Trump supporter or not, you must be ignorant to think that this isn't racism.
@quasar hwb discrimination, bigotry, xenophobia

I just want to put one thing out there, you can be a trump supporter and still have your own opinion.

BasilMarket.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I502Ouk-mS0

@nolen who ever wrote that is f*cking retarded
@basedmsguy i also don't understand how being against something makes you a liberal.

@quasar: I said not allowing Muslims to enter america

@meiguihua Muslim is religion, not race.

@cannoneer: labelling someone for their race like what we call black people

lol Tbh Sounds like a bunch of morons in my opinion. If I heard Trump won and decided to stay out of the country after hearing months of his campaign promises, maybe I deserve to be locked out of the country. Pure stupidity.

@meiguihua: I know English isn't your first language, but can you explain to me how exactly it's racism?

You think we're blocking people entirely for that reason and nothing else? Nothing to do with where they're coming from, wars, economics, higher risk of crime or terror, etc? If we were at war with Russia and temporarily banned all immigration from Russia and affiliated countries, I would be willing to bet this thread and similar rhetoric across the media wouldn't exist.

Know how many people are in the airports, frustrated.

@readers: i smell a butthurt liberal

The Absolute MADMAN!

I'm still not convinced Hillary would do any better, in the long term anyways.