Discussion on Old MapleStory
[Header]Introduction[/header]
Hello, I'm Sagrad and I have been playing Maple since 2006 (albeit off and on). I joined MapleStory when I was around 12 or 13 years old, and I am now 18 years old. I have always played on Khaini and have only strayed on brief occasions to try the new servers with some friends.
But anyhow, the whole point of me creating this topic was to hopefully put some common "myths" of Old Maple to rest. Assume that my tone throughout this piece is calm. I am not raging about this, I am calmly trying to illustrate that Old Maple isn't as magical as some people (mostly posers?) seem to think it is.
Also note that I acknowledge that problems exist currently as well. I do personally prefer Big Bang over Old Maple, however both have their merits.
Also note that I did not proofread this at all before I posted. Because I did rush this out, there are likely to be grammar errors. Come at me Grammar Nazis? Hands in the air don't curr.
This is going to be a fairly long post. If you show up posting any comments about its length and your inability to finish it, I will ignore your post. I will also accept [b]reasonable[/b] questions and comments. I will not respond to poorly thought question or questions that are not given in a language I understand (English and Spanish). Questions and comments will be received well by me if they are thought out and actually useful.
[Header]Grinding and Leveling[/header]
This is such a common argument now. I always am amused when people rant and sob about how "leveling is so fast now" that it's not even fun anymore. I am also usually perplexed by why allowing you to level fast is bad.
I'd like to take a moment to "survey" this imaginary audience. How many of you have [i]actually[/i] played on the [i]original[/i] MapleStory EXP Curve? No, I'm not talking about the EXPlosion event that eventually became law on the EXP Curve, I'm talking the [i]original[/i] EXP Curve. You know, the one the game was released with. Now, how many of you actually remember [i]training[/i] on that curve? Again, I'm talking about real old school where Zombies was your ticket to third job (eventually), not the more recent "Jesters until 70." If you have played on the original curve, then you probably remember how awful it was.
Now let's talk about leveling in the current patches. I'm not going to deny that it is somewhat "too" fast. However, its speed is much of other players doing, not Big Bang and Nexon (neither Korea or North America). Part of the reason leveling is so fast is that you people insist on training on the "broken" monsters. By broken, I'm referring to their HP/EXP rate and not whether they're functional or not. Most of the broken monsters we train on, do not exist in [i]most[/i] versions. [i]Most[/i] versions do not have Jesters, Scarecrows, and Zombies. [i]Most[/i] (if any other) versions do not have Aliens. The other part of our faster leveling speed stems from our addiction to Lion Heart/Lion King Castle. Combining the fact that BT hacks (if looting from a hacker is hacking, then benefitting from an increased spawn caused by a hacker is hacking) the spawn up to ridiculous amounts [i]and[/i] that we are still the only version that has Lion Heart as a Party Play Zone versus a Theme Dungeon or just regular area.
How does Lion Heart still existing as a Party Play Zone affect your leveling speed? I suppose maybe KMS eventually realized that Lion Heart makes leveling a bit too fast as they removed it, but there's some GMS "exclusive features" (I say exclusive because I don't know if it happens in other versions) of Lion Heart that makes it viable at almost any level. When the spawn has been hacked and you're a funded player, you can still train at Lion Heart despite other options that would seemingly give more EXP being available. How? Firstly, there's enough spawn to compensate for the fact that they may take you slightly longer to kill (depending on funding level). Secondly, leeching allows you to basically solo a map rather than having to share if you couldn't solo. Didn't anyone notice that leveling at Lion Heart noticeably slows down at 150 if you're not funded enough to solo or do not have a hacked map? That's because you're not supposed to [i]still[/i] be training there. You are supposed to go train at other places, but because of our "exclusive features," you can still stay there if you're funded and/or can get leeched.
You might be asking where you're supposed to be training if you can't train at Lion Heart. The answer really is Party Quests, Bossing, and Monster Park. The Party Quest and Monster Park revamps frequently just zip over the heads of people in GMS. That is because we still insist on training at Lion Heart. I haven't been able to compare the two because I can't get an appropriate party (i.e., within five to ten levels of me) to test most Party Quests, but I imagine if you were in an appropriately leveled party, Monster Park and Party Quests would be close to, if not faster than current training. Not to mention the fact that it's a lot more casual than grinding at Lion Heart (at least Party Quests are).
[header]Community[/header]
Remember how I mentioned earlier that Zombies were the road to 70 once you hit 50? I sort of, kind of, maybe possibly, implied that it was either easy in terms of speed to hit 70, or easy to get a map. Well, I'd like to inform you all that mass kill-stealing and kill-stealing wars and guild kill-stealing wars, and so on, aren't this new "thing" because leveling is so much easier (or something). When I meant that Zombies were the road to 70, I meant it. Should I have maybe called it a one-lane road with no passing allowed? Zombies were always jam-packed. Kill-stealing was common and frequent. Kill-stealing at Zombies was so common and so bad, that a timer for the map was implemented. To put it simply, the community has always been full of asses who kill-steal. I concede that kill-stealing has become somewhat more recreational (i.e., there are people who do it because they can/it's fun for them) because of more recent features, however the general concept and scale of kill-stealing has always been around.
The other common argument on how the community has degenerated is the "my buddy list is empty and it never was back then!" argument. Some of the reason your buddy list was full was because of Party Questing. Because 20 to 50 was more or less comprised of you doing Kerning Party Quest to 31, and then enduring 4 levels of what felt like sheer hell until you could Ludibrium Party Quest from 35 to 51. Throw in the later Orbis Party Quest and shortly after the glitched Orbis Party Quest, and you Party Quested to 71. You will inevitably make more friend if you Party Quest, both because you want people who are good and do it often so you can have a fall-back friend to Party Quest with and because you're coerced into social interaction to level.
I would bet that if people weaned off Lion Heart and actually went to Party Quest, people would feel like the "community is more social" again. As I mentioned earlier, you will be thrust into social interaction and you will make more friends. I would bet that this would happen if people would do it. You might even make more friends now if you stop leeching at Lion Heart and actually talk to the people you're with. I don't know, just a suggestion.
[header]Party Quests[/header]
Remember how I mentioned earlier that Party Quests were kind of your life-line to 51? It's a common that I hear people whine that the new Party Quests are either too easy or that nobody does them. Some of the reason they were revamped was so that they could be useable as a source of EXP again. While they were heavily relied on in the past, they were actually a fairly crappy source of experience. Ludibrium Party Quests were long and vulnerable to sabotage ranging from people hiding tickets to dying at golems to sucking at the infamous Stage 8. Part of the reason people did them was because they were at least better than straight grinding. Once new and better monsters, once Monster Carnival was released, once EXPlosion went into effect people stopped doing them. Why? Because they're either long and bad experience (Ludibrium, Orbis), have strict requirements (Romeo and Juliet), or are too short and give not enough experience (Kerning, Henesys).
I've already answered why they were made easier really. No one wants to spend 30 minutes doing, or trying to, do a Ludibrium Party Quest and only get 10%, especially once you factor in the limit on how many times you can do a certain Party Quest a day. They are made easier and given more experience so you can actually [b]use them[/b] to level.
And then a good old survey to round out this section! How many of you [i]actually[/i] did the old Ludibrium and Orbis Party Quests? Unless you glitched Orbis Party Quest, it was worthless experience and was likely to take longer than Ludibrium Party Quest. Ludibrium Party Quest on the other hand was faster and gave decent experience (for its level range), however was definitely slow. Completion times for my parties (I played as a Cleric) often ranged from usually 40 minutes at the absolute longest (I did have some absurdly long 50-55 minute ones occasionally) to 15 minutes at the absolute shortest (on rare occasions I did have the miracle 5-10 minute ones with an excellent party). I don't really want to reveal how much EXP I got per PQ (I lied, I got around 30% once I hit around 40).
[header]Classes and Class Balance[/header]
I think it's always humorous when people play the "classes were balanced in Old Maple!" card. Classes were far from balanced in Old Maple. Warriors were slow and often relied on first job skills through third job (until fourth job was released) and when third job was released, Dragon Knights were flat out overpowered. Magicians had built in Mastery and were the strongest class in first job. They then would often fall off past 50-ish. Not even going to talk about the disproportionate number of Ice/Lightning Mages and Clerics compared to Fire/Poison Mages. Archers basically sucked at all levels, and they were slow to boot. If you got to 70 as an Archer, you were quite skilled. Thieves were generally "balanced" (only in people's heads) until people realized that DEXless Assassins were superior to most classes. They used that strength and mobility to effectively become the Demon Slayers and Mercedes of their time (think of this also as a throw-back to the community section!).
So why do all classes all seem to be ultra similar now? Some of it is in fact balance. Most new classes follow a sort of template in their design. A reason that Assassins were some of the strongest kill-stealers in the game during their reign was a combination of power and ultra-mobility. Assassins and Bandits were the only class in the game at that time to have 140% Speed and 120% Jump. (Archers could get 130% Speed, but Thrust is a bad skill and also there were few Archers anyways.) Because Thieves, especially Assassins, could cruise around maps faster than you, they were able to kill more things faster than you. To sort of rectify this problem, Nexon attempts to eliminate the "I'm stronger because I'm faster than you" factor. That is why most characters have passive speed boosts and some sort of a Flash Jump (except Warriors and their Slipstream).
But wait! Flash Jump isn't the only skill new classes are ripping off! I suppose if you look at the bare basics of skills, like most Basilers seem to do, of course every skill is going to be similar. Yes, there are copies of skills that can't be ignored. Some of these skills are the Flash Jump copies, Mirror Image as a copy of Shadow Partner, Rapid Fire (as well as Ishtar's Ring and Wild Arrow Blast (is that its real name?)) being a copy of Hurricane. Yes, there are some direct copies of skills as I mentioned. But really, just because a ranged move hits four times doesn't mean it's a copy of Strafe. Nor does it mean Double Shot is like Strafe cut in half. Nor does it mean that skills that hit five times from a distance are like Strafe with an extra hit thrown in. If you want to look at skills based on concepts, Savage Blow and Phantom Blow are [i]basically[/i] the same skill as they both hit six times. (Let's ignore the fact that Phantom Blow is faster and ignores defense?)
[Header]"It's a small world after all!"[/header]
(Only section I felt like coming up with a clever title?)
People always seem to complain that the world is now small and discourages exploration. I do agree the world discourages exploration, but also in part because don't want to explore. But at any rate, part of the problem with the Old Maple world map was that it just sucked. There were too many areas for 10-50 and very few for 70+. Combine it with the fact that also [i]a lot[/i] of maps sucked. Anyone remember the good old L-Forests? Yeah, those sucked. Anyone remember most of the Ant Tunnel maps? Yeah, those sucked too.
"But I miss Henesys Hunting Ground I!"
That map template is still in the game a few maps of Henesys.
"No, that's not Henesys Hunting Ground I!"
Yes, it is. It even plays the same music. Aside from the different monsters that spawn, it is the same shape as Henesys Hunting Ground I. All that you enjoyed from Henesys Hunting Ground I was showing off and general chatting. There's nothing entirely remarkable about that map. Especially when you consider that you needed people on each platform to keep the spawn up and that also the monsters were weaker and such.
[Header]Nexon versus Wizet and Hacking[/header]
I decided I'd kind of just smoosh these two topics together. They're both kind of related to each other anyways.
I always seem to see this weird story that the game was better when Nexon didn't run it. I'd like to point out that Wizet has always been a part of Nexon America. If Wizet had any autonomy, it was maybe with the relative speed of content. Nexon America likely had the rest. But even then, Wizet did not run the game as well as people think they did.
You know how people like to complain that hackers are rampant now? They were equally as rampant under Wizet's "control." While their effect wasn't as noticeable (they didn't dupe and make hacked items), they still were common and people complained about them a bunch then. Wizet rarely did much against hackers then. And when I mean rarely, I mean almost never. I also like when people throw out how Game Masters used to "have a presence." Under my 6 years as a Mapler, I have never seen a Game Master personally ban someone. By personally ban someone, I mean that they personally go see that the person reported is hacking (even if Hidden) and then ban them. Never. All I've ever seen Game Masters do is spam smegas and host events that people whine that they didn't win or a hacker won.
I also like it when people say that Wizet rarely extended patches. First of all, what? Wizet [i]rarely[/i] had content patches and also they also often had extensions on everything. But only Nexon who extends Cash items and if the down-time was significant (i.e., the patch was supposed to last two hours, but ended up lasting eight hours) will give at least a 2x event. Wizet often only extended Cash items and maybe if you were really lucky, they would throw us a bone with a 2x event.
In short: Wizet was never in-charge. Wizet never (or at least rarely) banned hackers. Wizet also was bad at maintenances.
[Header]Conclusion[/header]
Yes, there are some things that suck about Big Bang. However, Old Maple isn't as magical as people make it out to be, nor was it that great anyways. Both MapleStories have their problems and both have their benefits. Thanks for reading. I will take the "good questions" as mentioned in the introduction now.
I will be posting this in any thread that there are either nostalgia boners, inappropriate references to the past, incorrect details of the past, and if I feel like it. Deal with it.
42 Comments • Newest first
[quote=RyceBish]too much to read. i think you should use that effort and put it into something more worthwhile.[/quote]
It wasn't that much effort. I'm not some twelve year-old that has to take an hour to write a paragraph or something; I'm eighteen and I know how to write. As I said on the first page, this took me a total of one hour [b]including[/b] distractions.
@gath:
1) I don't know, the argument could go both ways. One could argue that the achievement is in the ability to see your character [i]actually[/i] progress versus just receiving one level. I personally see it that the achievement lies in the ability to see my character grow. But it goes either way really, all depends on the person.
2) It is harsh. I do imagine though that if people played on the Big Bang and [b]original[/b] curve, they'd be a little bit more appreciative of the curve we have now.
3) Eh, I never hit the limit most of the time as most people never do all 10 that I've gone with. I've had too many leavers between like the first 5-ish that I become demotivated. I'm neutral on the limit thing anyways.
For your reference, I have been playing since the summer of '07. (And that makes me an old mapler now...wow.)
[quote=Momijii]
This is such a common argument now. I always am amused when people rant and sob about how "leveling is so fast now" that it's not even fun anymore. I am also usually perplexed by why allowing you to level fast is bad.[/quote]
I see your point there, but I also think that it somehow raised the level of accomplishment. I remember my first character, when I actually saw second job characters and thought 'Wow. That's pretty good.' I liked the slower pace of the game back then as well. It made leveling feel like more of an accomplishment. Especially third job. Third job was when you got all the flashy skills and it really felt like an achievement. Sure, you still get the flashy skills, but its less of a benefit now. Those skills were so cool partially because of how hard they were to get. Being able to use strafe after 70 levels of training was awesome on my ranger before BB. Getting to use Fury after one week on my Drk? Still pretty cool, but not nearly as good.
[quote=Momijii]I'd like to take a moment to "survey" this imaginary audience. How many of you have [i]actually[/i] played on the [i]original[/i] MapleStory EXP Curve? No, I'm not talking about the EXPlosion event that eventually became law on the EXP Curve, I'm talking the [i]original[/i] EXP Curve. You know, the one the game was released with. Now, how many of you actually remember [i]training[/i] on that curve? Again, I'm talking about real old school where Zombies was your ticket to third job (eventually), not the more recent "Jesters until 70." If you have played on the original curve, then you probably remember how awful it was.[/quote]
Heh. Awful? That's a harsh way of putting. Yeah, it was slow. But I think that made every level worth so much more.
[quote=Momijii]Remember how I mentioned earlier that Zombies were the road to 70 once you hit 50?... I concede that kill-stealing has become somewhat more recreational (i.e., there are people who do it because they can/it's fun for them) because of more recent features, however the general concept and scale of kill-stealing has always been around.[/quote]
Yeah, people have always been jerks.
[quote=Momijii]Remember how I mentioned earlier that Party Quests were kind of your life-line to 51? It's a common that I hear people whine that the new Party Quests are either too easy or that nobody does them. Some of the reason they were revamped was so that they could be useable as a source of EXP again. While they were heavily relied on in the past, they were actually a fairly crappy source of experience. Ludibrium Party Quests were long and vulnerable to sabotage ranging from people hiding tickets to dying at golems to sucking at the infamous Stage 8. Part of the reason people did them was because they were at least better than straight grinding. Once new and better monsters, once Monster Carnival was released, once EXPlosion went into effect people stopped doing them. Why? Because they're either long and bad experience (Ludibrium, Orbis), have strict requirements (Romeo and Juliet), or are too short and give not enough experience (Kerning, Henesys).[/quote]
I actually loved Party Quests back in the day. KPQ being my favorite. I absolutely hate the limit on how many times you can do them.
[quote=Momijii]
Yes, it is. It even plays the same music. Aside from the different monsters that spawn, it is the same shape as Henesys Hunting Ground I. All that you enjoyed from Henesys Hunting Ground I was showing off and general chatting. There's nothing entirely remarkable about that map. Especially when you consider that you needed people on each platform to keep the spawn up and that also the monsters were weaker and such.[/quote]
That's true...but it still isn't the same. Sure we may have enjoyed nothing more than showing off and chatting. But that was fun! I loved it. And there is nothing like it now.
I think the primary difference is that pre-BB maplestory forced social interaction upon you through the establishment of popular training areas such as HH1 or the Ant Tunnel as well as PQs, while you have to actually search for it now. (Yes, there still are popular training areas now).
nice ma, ive been playing since 06 as well cept im 14 atm
But I miss getting stuck in Ant Tunnel after not being able to afford a Return Scroll or be strong enough to exit. I really do.
Haha yeah i realized that my good friends came from Ludi Maze PQ T_T Now i only have 4 people active in my BL its pathetic ._.
[quote=BrianLee132]windraiders were your ticket to 70 O_O[/quote]He's talking years before that.
Go make a [b]P[/b]izza [b]S[/b]lice if you like the old maplestory, make it with the average exp rate, before pirate update, normal drop rates and PM me
I wish people did JUMP QUESTS more.
or bossing.
I miss talking to people to organize a zakum run for days, even weeks.
Sure, it was annoying, but the end result was amazing.
I also wished that more people would challenge themselves with stuff like jump quests.
And the hyper tele rocks arent helping the social status, though I enjoy them for five different reasons.
1. I can stalk my buddies
2. I can go to leafre to go to zipangu for bosses or stuff via Spinel.
3. I can easily basil trade.
4. I can go to training spots faster.
5. I can go to passage to do daily zruns.
I wish that nexon would keep the hyper tele rocks, remove all those crap events, quit releasing characters with more crap events, make quests useful and give stuff like summoning sacks or omok.
The only place I can play omok is at henesys channel 1.
I dunno. I started playing in perhaps 2006? I was terrible and kept on dieing. I guess what really made it fun was real life friends playing the game with me. I didn't mind the exp curve, since it was all i knew. Now its a little diffrent. I still have friends...although they are in my guild and not in real life, and i still have fun. So i guess that maplestory never really lost its shine.
[quote=darklord666]This was an instant favorite... I am gonna show this nostalgia thread to the SoulBound FB group! So much I remember having to go through... I still remember training at lupins and golems for quests just to get equipment. There are so many people who play the game and really are blind to the change Nexon has brought us, or maybe they feel they need to blame [b]something[/b] for their shortcomings.
Hope to one day see ya in game Sagrad![/quote]
Yes! Because [i]only[/i] Nexon's inadequacy and Big Bang are why the game is complete "trash" now!
(Hope to see you one day, maybe! )
[quote=keyholes]something I miss from old Maple: nicer, friendlier people who don't curse, KSing not existing, no stupid people who spend 200 dollars on equips -_-[/quote]
(See: section on Community)
The section on Potential and NX is coming soon too! Oh boy!
and btw there were always ksers/hackers/and annoying people
there still are nice people all over, you probably don't meet them cause your busy grinding at jesters/mp3/lhc/ where they flock to
yea to people saying "leveling is too easy", you do know that you don't have to grind all day right? Feel free to pq, quest, chat, explore, etc.
This was an instant favorite... I am gonna show this nostalgia thread to the SoulBound FB group! So much I remember having to go through... I still remember training at lupins and golems for quests just to get equipment. There are so many people who play the game and really are blind to the change Nexon has brought us, or maybe they feel they need to blame [b]something[/b] for their shortcomings.
Hope to one day see ya in game Sagrad!
Edit, looks at above^ reference lol... smh
[quote=keyholes]something I miss from old Maple: nicer, friendlier people who don't curse, KSing not existing, no stupid people who spend 200 dollars on equips -_-[/quote]
*didn't read the thread*
[quote=Oshimaiden]Also, I, personally, feel that, during the "old maple," people in Henesys at Hunting Ground I were the best. You would have all the low levels train their butts off (On Mini Mushrooms [or are they called Mushroom Spore? I dunno], Snails and Orange Mushrooms) as well the higher levels who would just sit, talk and enjoy themselves (and, occasionally, poke fun at the lower levels). To me, that was wonderful. You would meet people and actually learn about them, their character and their play style. Now? Please, I hardly have any unless they are for FM Trading or PQ abusing. Guilds aren't even the same anymore. Guilds back then had actual Guild PQs (And guilds ACTUALLY did them) and, to me personally, I hardly see true guilds work together anymore. So, yeah, I do believe the community isn't as fun anymore.
[/quote]
WOW. That just brought back some serious nostalgia. I remember playing on and off since like...2006 before legitly making Isiwen some time before Big Bang. And every single time, Heneseys Hunting Ground was there like a good old friend, with the high levels sitting there watching us / chatting / occasionally having a drop party. Everyone was so nice back then, and even guilds now...=_=
It's more like a silent band who spend all their time grinding, and are just in the guild to be in a guild. It's as good as dead (at least many I've been in).
OT: Nice points, but even with all the bonuses, I still prefer the Old Maple. Even with BB, I've never been a fan of grinding so I'm still taking my sweet time, though I would be lvl 200 right now if I really wanted to It used to be a huge deal when you got to level 50, but now, all these 150+s just sit around calling each other noob or whatever. I loved old Maple's relaxed pace, instead of now where you just pass through a map and see either (1) an autobot hacker or (2) an oversensitive grinder who spams "CC PLX" or (3) hacked weapons.
Now much has changed for me now that Old Maple's gone. If people liked Old Maple's pace, then they should play the way they want without caring too much about all these obsessed freaks Maplestory is meant to be a form of escape / relaxation. No need to make it as stressful as life~
Yup, all true.
[quote=Momijii]I also like when people throw out how Game Masters used to "have a presence." Under my 6 years as a Mapler, I have never seen a Game Master personally ban someone. By personally ban someone, I mean that they personally go see that the person reported is hacking (even if Hidden) and then ban them. Never. All I've ever seen Game Masters do is spam smegas and host events that people whine that they didn't win or a hacker won.[/quote]
[url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v512/strawberry_kiwi/Maple0157.jpg]never say never [/url]. its not exactly "reported" but still, it happened a few times.
I agree that "my buddylist was full" because of party questing. But I've also gotten buddies through training like the zombie map or the old slime tree. It can be the same with LHC, people just need to be social. It doesn't have to be through party questing either. On my mercedes, I probably added 4 people from R&J pqing. Thats half of what I got pre-bb. Stop being like leveling zombies and poke some fun people!
something I miss from old Maple: nicer, friendlier people who don't curse, KSing not existing, no stupid people who spend 200 dollars on equips -_-
oh hi there sagrad
As a 6 year vet. I appreciate reading what you have written here. So many thoughts & explanations in a nutshell for those who haven't got a clue.
[quote=kenshin948]Thank you for this ^^. Recently i've been frustrated with people complaining about old maple and this just was a breath of fresh air~(one of the only long threads i actually read through). I agree with you entirely. Though I do love beta and old maple, I have loved the progression of maple as well and i feel people fail to see it as a progression of the game. Rather they see it as upgrades that supposedly ruins it due to changes.[/quote]
No problem! If it wasn't finals week next week, then I would've added some more by now. But it is, so I have all the work to do. ;o;
Thank you for this ^^. Recently i've been frustrated with people complaining about old maple and this just was a breath of fresh air~(one of the only long threads i actually read through). I agree with you entirely. Though I do love beta and old maple, I have loved the progression of maple as well and i feel people fail to see it as a progression of the game. Rather they see it as upgrades that supposedly ruins it due to changes.
[quote=lmaClubYou]You should edit this and dedicate this thread to me [/quote]
And I just saw your other thread and was about to post this in it.
for past PQs AC = PRO
@Momijii: because I stick with the classes I have enough personal experience with to make a judgement on it in support of the argument about there not being a semblance of balance now. Also, as the most blatant example, it is the obvious one to point at when you try to claim the unbalance is the same then as now. It is not that they are better because they have something my class doesn't, it is that there is no downside to choosing them as there once was with the main classes. They attack fast and strong, are mobile and tough and have no negative consequent to playing them that players would have to be aware of. Mechanics used to be similar, with attacks map wide and mobility enough, thanks to teleports, to cover the whole map.
I am sorry you think pointing out the obvious difference of scale is "whining" but that is up to you. To me, I see an obvious example of a change in how classes are formed, from one of an attempt to balance by having negative aspects to counteract the power of the class, to just making a bandwagoner's wet dream.
[quote=dragonmatt5]again, you miss my complaint here. I never disagreed there was not some imbalance, merely that it was far, far less so compared to the release of pretty much every new class. As I said, I played a page, I know well how screwed over they were. When I referred to the roles, I was referring to the roles people wanted to play and therefore took the classes to obtain. If you wanted attack and survivability, you picked a warrior. If you wanted range and mobility, you got a thief. There was a choice able to be made based on what you were seeking to play. Fast forward to know when you can have a fast, mobile, powerhouse tank that starts with a default skill classic warriors don't get til 4th job. There is no sacrifice to be made anymore for playing a character. Back then hermits knew they were kinda low on hp and had to be somewhat careful. Demon slayers don't even have that as a weakness.[/quote]
Then unfortunately all I see is someone whining (as usual) about how Demon Slayer is better because it has something their class doesn't. You're very selectively picking on a class as you've disregarded how Mechanics get Stance in first job, how Battle Mages get stance in third job, and you don't acknowledge how Evans have to wait until 160 at the earliest for their stance.
@Momijii: Yes, there are monsters not fixed for the hp/exp ratio. But that has almost always been an issue. Again, I call back to things like bigfoot farming or even zak arm leach. The only difference now is that it is more open and started earlier. Though even avoiding jesters and the like it is not that hard to level to third job in the time it used to take to get to second. But that might just be what I noticed.
again, you miss my complaint here. I never disagreed there was not some imbalance, merely that it was far, far less so compared to the release of pretty much every new class. As I said, I played a page, I know well how screwed over they were. When I referred to the roles, I was referring to the roles people wanted to play and therefore took the classes to obtain. If you wanted attack and survivability, you picked a warrior. If you wanted range and mobility, you got a thief. There was a choice able to be made based on what you were seeking to play. Fast forward to know when you can have a fast, mobile, powerhouse tank that starts with a default skill classic warriors don't get til 4th job. There is no sacrifice to be made anymore for playing a character. Back then hermits knew they were kinda low on hp and had to be somewhat careful. Demon slayers don't even have that as a weakness.
[quote=xFluffymanx]And by the way, you said you played Maplestory since 2006, and you've always played in Khaini. That means that you're lying, you played in a different world and transferred.[/quote]
Khaini was released in February of 2006. [url=http://maplestory.nexon.net/News/News.aspx?boardNo=103&contentNo=004Qo&pageIndex=10]Source[/url]
I joined about mid-way through the First Anniversary Events.
[quote=dragonmatt5]In terms of exp, people have ALWAYS tried to exploit every step of the way. The ks wars of the zombies to himes, to bigfoot police crap. Every time a new shortcut opened up, people would rush it and there would be butthurt all around. That was fine though, as anyone with some since avoided those well known areas and didn't need to deal with the jerks save the occasional ks-er. While I certainly appreciate the new curve as less head bashing-ly slow, there was an aspect of community that could be formed as regardless of funding, most people still took a while to level and as such had to mingle with others, including in, as you said, pq.[/quote]
There will always be ks-ers. My point was that we level faster partially because there are so many monsters that are designed to be easier. (see: Aliens with their broken HP/EXP ratio) If we didn't have monsters like Jesters and Aliens that are broken experience, leveling would be noticeably slower.
[quote=dragonmatt5]As for class balance, at the start it was not bad. Warriors were slow but soaked up and did damage, as well as kept enemies at bay. Sins were speedsters, archers were backup damage though weak, mages were nukes/healers/damage over time. Was fairly balanced. Then sins seemed to be exploited and abused, and even then at the height of it, there was some degree of balance. Even though they did more damage, they were regarded as a noob class and when not played right could be countered fairly easily by anyone but warriors (we were kinda screwed for a long time). Now we have classes that are insanely out of balance. Demon slayers have a permanent level 30 stance that was even better then that for a while. At the start. Plus long range and suction skills, high hp and defense, and mobility that is second to none. Saying the balance has always been broken when looking at the two is comparing a twisted ankle to a severed leg. But there was also a different community feel at the time.[/quote]
Your definitions of the classes are the ideal image of the class. In reality, many of the classes were weak compared to others. The Fighter and Page tree of Warriors were weak compared to the Spearman (since they got a new attack as Dragon Knight) tree. Fire/Poison was inferior to Ice/Lightning and the Cleric tree of Magicians. Archers were bad all around. Bandits were clearly inferior to Assassins. Not to mention all it takes is a picture of what classes were taken on early Zakum runs (prior to fourth job). On Zakum runs, it was basically a Dragon Knight and a Priest with four Hermits in a party. There were some exceptions, but those were the classes taken. Classes have not and never will be balanced, period.
I agree with everything you said. Howver I personally, having played since bera was the brand-new server, do like bigbang very much. It took too much time to level up before. I like how it is now more. The onlything I miss is a place where high leved people can solo with good exp.
Having also played since 2006, I agree that there are good and bad parts about the Big Bang patch and patches since. I do think leveling is too fast now, even with my avoidance of hacked maps I was still able to get to 200 (and multiple other 150+ characters) with relative ease. We needed an exp curve because gaining under 10%/hr before 120 (and before 70 pre EXPlosion) was just too slow. However, now we don't even reach that 10%/hr mark until late 18x or 19x. That's just ridiculous.
I enjoy all the new classes and revamps. It keeps the game fresh (although maybe they don't need to be increasing everyone's power so much. The last patch halved my heroes zakum solo time).
The community has gotten worse. I blame that more on the potential system than the Big Bang. Potential allowed people to focus on increasing their power by such large amounts that soloing bosses actually became an option, decreasing people's need to work together. I believe Nexon added party play in an attempt to solve this; however, people just solo that now (I mean it's sad when my Evan has been able to solo lhc since 13x and he's hardly funded...).
I never tried the true old maple (I joined in 2009 pre cygnus knights) but I was able to experience some of that tedious repetitive training, and I do agree that training is somewhat better now; however, it's wayyy too fast, and thats not nexon's fault (well it is but w/e), I trained my Evan from 135 to 19x at LHC before "glitched"(hacked) maps came out, training was what it should be: not so fast and not so slow either, I was getting about 20% per hour at lv 180 and 10% per hour at lv 19x at a regular LHC map with 4 other attackers and 1 bishop(hser), for the lv I was at I found it entertaining enough and fast enough to not make it boring, but right after the hack with PB (wild hackers lol), and glitched LHC came out, training at 19x was like when I was 16x, and I wasnt even funded much at that time. I'm pretty sure that if there wasn't glitched LHC maps nor weekly 2x/4x exp events, training would be perfectly balanced. I remember that it took me 7 hours to get from lv 199 to 200 (on 1.5x coupon) and now people can get from 195 to 200 in about 6 hours if there's a 2x event -.-'...
PD: They should strengthen some monsters, at least some leafre or ToT regular mobs should hit 5k-10k :l, as well as NLC ones (even though they completely ruined the place), I remember when elderwraiths/stormbreakers/firebrands would hit 2k-3k, the big pillar that would 1 hit-ko you (now I was able to survive one hit 'cause of magic guard's better effect -.-')...... I just want the old NLC back D: the place I was scared to go to at the beginning (lv 5x ice lightning), where you could find some very strong bosses (HH & BF) and the place where I used to make money by killing leprechauns :'l
Edit: Phantom forest maze >_< and lower ascent :S they shouldn't have taken that out...... friggen out of context aliens.....
Hi. I started playing years ago back before, if I remember correctly, some sort of thanksgiving turkey commando event thing. Kinda sucked, since they could waste me pretty quickly. I started as a ice mage then switched to be a page. I played as a page to a white knight through the worst grind hell before even pirates. I remember. I remember the sins, I remember the pq and I remember the community then.
In terms of exp, people have ALWAYS tried to exploit every step of the way. The ks wars of the zombies to himes, to bigfoot police crap. Every time a new shortcut opened up, people would rush it and there would be butthurt all around. That was fine though, as anyone with some since avoided those well known areas and didn't need to deal with the jerks save the occasional ks-er. While I certainly appreciate the new curve as less head bashing-ly slow, there was an aspect of community that could be formed as regardless of funding, most people still took a while to level and as such had to mingle with others, including in, as you said, pq.
I remember tracking people in kern and ludi pq. clicking fast as hell and hoping they didn't have an autoclicker. There was a distinct possibility that at least 1 member of your team was too dumb to breath without being told to, 2 members were petty and would hold the party hostage until they got leadership/box 1, and the rest were varying ranges of competent. And that was a GOOD thing. Aside from forcing some teamwork to gain levels, and being a spot where you could over several days run into the same people time and again, it actually fostered a community to an extent that people had reputations. Their actions of the previous days stuck with them a little bit. I recall a few times I actively kicked members of the party for being blistering failures of humanity the day or two prior and showing no hope of having changed. Conversely I remembered the ones who were stronger or clever and would happily abandon trying to make a new team to join them, even if it meant missing the current pq run to get it the next time. People who were competent as well as strong were valued more then people with good gear but all the intelligence of a sack of potatoes. And even if I failed more pq then I finished, I STILL think it was better for requiring just that little bit more then the bare standard of intelligence to finish them. Do wish they had given better rewards and exp then though.
As for class balance, at the start it was not bad. Warriors were slow but soaked up and did damage, as well as kept enemies at bay. Sins were speedsters, archers were backup damage though weak, mages were nukes/healers/damage over time. Was fairly balanced. Then sins seemed to be exploited and abused, and even then at the height of it, there was some degree of balance. Even though they did more damage, they were regarded as a noob class and when not played right could be countered fairly easily by anyone but warriors (we were kinda screwed for a long time). Now we have classes that are insanely out of balance. Demon slayers have a permanent level 30 stance that was even better then that for a while. At the start. Plus long range and suction skills, high hp and defense, and mobility that is second to none. Saying the balance has always been broken when looking at the two is comparing a twisted ankle to a severed leg. But there was also a different community feel at the time
You mentioned the jerks were always there, and you are right. The hackers were always there as well, you are right. Again though there is a matter of scope. Hackers could not terrorize other players by kicking them. They didn't vac entire popular maps with obvious intent. They didn't dupe and ruin the market for legitimate players. That all was progressive changes over time, some fixed now, some not. There was however a different community acceptance to it from then to now. I remember people getting up in arms about autoclicker programs when they did pq. Now? I doubt anyone would give a damn beyond passing comments of "everyone hacks now".
finally, in regard to hensy hunting ground, it was never the map itself that was the charm. It was right outside a popular town, it had a variety of monsters that all had quests relating to them. It was where many people leveled from 10 to 20 or so. It was a gathering spot for higher levels to chill and show off and an unofficial gathering spot for players of all levels to intermingle. the fact the map itself exists somewhere is like pointing to a skeleton of a man and saying "yeah, bob's still right there." It ignores everything that made it what it was to point at the lifeless bones and looks at those that miss it like we are dumb since it is still "there"
I agree... We have too many GMS Exclusive stuff that makes leveling too fast and easy. Yes, it took forever to get to level 70 Pre-BB, but now it can take an hour to get to level 70. Maplestory went from slow to fast as all hell. And by the way, you said you played Maplestory since 2006, and you've always played in Khaini. That means that you're lying, you played in a different world and transferred. I'm kind of confused on this, but you have brought up a lot of good points. Nothing will change though, even if we get 99% of the Maple population to protest against this, because there will always be people that will buy NX, and get on to play this crap known as "Maplestory" everyday, despite knowing that this game sucks.
I remember when i was 12 and i had to lie about my age, so i changed my year to 1992 instead of 1993 or else they didn't let me make my account lol. But to add on (or restate haha) there will always be two thing that i will always remember about old maple, and that was the grind and the PQs. The grind was just ridiculous -___- It was too dang much. I spent weeks or even months just to get to level 50. I legit just came back 3 days ago and made a bandit and i'm already level 50 haha. It's pretty crazy how much this game has changed. Nothing will ever replace the memorable moments i shared with my friends struggling to get into the PQs though. I remember i wrote so many names down in my notepad so i can have a track name. "J>PQ, HAVE TRACK!" got you into a party so fast lol. Sucked when i got kicked right after i gave it though >.<. Jerks haha..
The only thing i liked about maple in the past was the PQs. In ludi pq it was fun to smuggle passes by disconnecting and reconnecting then like doing the pqs in like 5-10mins was pro. I remember memorizing the number combo on the boxes to get to the top made me feel pro to tell the whole number combo and call ppl noobs lol. Orbis pq again i smuggled the crap outta that with my friend. my favorite ludi maze pq because i made what would be a lot of money in the past off of that and i actually put some time into remembering how to get o each room and doing the pq in 1-2min(i think that was average for a good party but i dont remember). But once i reached 71 there was no more pqs and i quit until now cuz honestly grinding for hours on end for 1 level was soo f-ing boring.
[quote=Surreyboyz]thats what everyone says after spending hours typing this, and editing[/quote]
Did not. Spent about an hour total (including distraction on both Maple and Facebook). If you look through, I'm certain that there are still plenty (by my definition) of grammatical errors and awkward word choices. I did not edit at all. I was referring to the fact that he thought I was solely reminiscing on "how great old Maple was," when in fact I'm more reminiscing on the contrary.
@TheEpigone:
Yes. Maple's content largely is at its highest (what little there is) in fourth job. A problem with old Maple and EXPlosion is that it's not very accessible to everyone given how long it takes. Now everyone can experience at least some of late-game content.
@SkyforthReborn:
Oh yeah. People are now throwing around "133 221 333 123 111" like they actually know what it means and how "important" it was to know it. Oh well. "Good" old players don't throw around the stuff everyone knows.
@xyzver:
And that's why despite Orbis PQ (glitch at least) making it easy to get to 71 didn't result in more people getting very much further than 71. Most people forgot how to grind and how much it sucked.
LOLOL i remember the L forests in the entrance of kerning! i used to cross it on my old char (I lost my acc info) Raquaza21464 (Yes i was 7) This was also before metro came out to start with. I wish they would take metro hair and that alert face away from starting. -_- A whole bunch of noobs looking like pros when you come back to maple 1 month after the Big Bang
[quote=Oshimaiden]1) I agree with people not knowing when to quit but, hey, what do you expect? People want to hit 15x - 200 asap so that they can do the Boss runs properly. You can't blame them though. I, honestly, have a great time being in an expedition killing off Zakum or doing CWKPQ (I've yet to get a MoN. I really do want one. >_<, especially if you have friends or guild members with you.
2) Like I said before, I loved seeing the different type of people and characters (as well as the occasional pro players). Also, you're right. That's what people want to do. "Everyone wanna be famous, but no one want to do the work."
3) True. Just. Plain. True.
4) I... explored a bit. Not really a lot, but enough to know my way around. I understand, however, that already seeing everything does kill the exploring "need to go out."[/quote]
(1) Well if you want to get to 15x-200, and then complain about how fast it is, especially when you weren't around when it was pitifully slow, I don't think you're in any place to talk.
(2) Different strokes for different folks. Yes it was cool to see all the different classes, but it was no pass-time for me. Well, I didn't do it frequently to say the least.
(4) Yup. 10 points to Ravenclaw.
[quote=SoBrisk]The only thing I hate about "new maple" is that bosses like zak and ht are useless and to kill them yields little profit.[/quote]
If you had the money to do so, Zakum Helms, Horntail Pendants, and Eggs were sold via runs. Bosses have been a source of profit since people were able to replicate the success.
[quote=iTzRevium]This thread brought back some horrible, horrible memories of Coolies and STDs. [/quote]
Yes.
This thread brought back some horrible, horrible memories of Coolies and STDs.
[quote=shairn]I don't have much to say but I do have this to say:
You mentioned Monster park as a way to train aside from LHC. How do you expect to get tickets apart from the 3 you can buy every day? After 15mins of monster park, you're already done for the day unless you get more tickets somehow. Since you're 150, you default to... LHC or ToT. Let's just say that Advancing in ToT is going to take unreasonable amounts of time and you might as well just default to LHC.[/quote]
I can get easily hundreds of ticket pieces while training at Qualm Monks using my HTR. And in all honesty, if they did fix LHC, I'd expect people to PQ more anyways and use Monster Park as a supplement to PQs (when you've run out). I really see no obvious cons in changing LHC. Unless you're one of those "TRAIN ALL THE 24/7!" people, that is.
[quote=Oshimaiden][b] (1) [/b]I pretty much agree with most of what you wrote. It is true that "old maple" was horrible in terms of leveling and I do think that the "new maple" is too fast because of the broken monsters and LHC/LKC because, hey, it is true. I mean, I made my Bishop the NIGHT BEFORE the newest patch came out and I was already at near level 90. I remember where people actually had to talk to each other during PQs in order to get past a certain part or even be able to beat the PQ at all, but what do you expect? Give people the ability to level fast (if they know the right places) and PQs will be a thing of the past. Honestly, the only PQs I see "popular" are CWKPQ, ZakPQ (Honestly, I think this one is dying fast because there aren't enough channels to hold normal PQs. If players could hurt other players, I honestly believe that most of the lower levels [120 - 140] would die in an instant because the higher levels would just instant kill them all), Romeo and Juliet and Nett's Pyramid (for the low levels who don't want to do Jesters) and... I think that's it. I'm not including LHC/LKC because it really isn't a PQ at all.
[b] (2) [/b]Also, I, personally, feel that, during the "old maple," people in Henesys at Hunting Ground I were the best. You would have all the low levels train their butts off (On Mini Mushrooms [or are they called Mushroom Spore? I dunno], Snails and Orange Mushrooms) as well the higher levels who would just sit, talk and enjoy themselves (and, occasionally, poke fun at the lower levels). To me, that was wonderful. You would meet people and actually learn about them, their character and their play style. Now? Please, I hardly have any unless they are for FM Trading or PQ abusing. Guilds aren't even the same anymore. Guilds back then had actual Guild PQs (And guilds ACTUALLY did them) and, to me personally, I hardly see true guilds work together anymore. So, yeah, I do believe the community isn't as fun anymore.
[b] (3) [/b]"I suppose if you look at the bare basics of skills, like most Basilers seem to do, of course every skill is going to be similar."
Well, it's true. The only differences are: 1) Different name, 2) Applied to a different class and 3) Different Damage. That's pretty much it. (Compare it to cars: Toyota Corolla, Honda Civic, Ford Focus, Chevrolet Cavalier, etc. They are all going to be similar.) I do agree, however, that the classes in "old maple" were far from balanced. I never touched a Warrior because of how pathetic they were aside from the Damage perspective as well as agreeing with "new maple."
[b] (4) [/b]"I do agree the world discourages exploration, but also in part because don’t want to explore. "
You forgot to add about how people would rather use VIP and Hyper Tele Rocks. Also, the game doesn't really give us any reason TO explore. Yeah, they give medals for actually trying, but those medals suck as well as the monsters in the area. I, personally, feel that if the exploration medals were better, you would see more people exploring and actually trying out more and more things.[/quote]
I agree with your points on quests and Wizet.
I'll address my responses following a number system I added to the quote.
(1) I do agree it is fast, but only insofar as people refuse to leave the broken monsters. Granted, it's still fairly speedy, however, the main content (whatever it is) is based for 120+, so you have to be able to get there reasonably. Also, people really just don't know when to take a break from grinding. I train like half an hour at ToT a day, and yeah I level maybe once a week, but I also have more fun.
(2) On HHG1: Different strokes for different folks. I never cared for it, aside from potentially getting a leech to level 10.
On guilds: I think that's partially due to the fact that people just don't want to work. They expect to join these "pro" guilds where everyone is everyone's best friend and all they do are boss runs and guild events together. They don't realize that there's so much more to a guild than just events and runs, and so many die (or suck).
(3) But there's only so much you can do with a 2D game. If every skill was supposed to be unique in some way (even the bare basics), we'd have skills that hit 30 times by now.
(4) I don't explore. I don't explore because I have no reason to explore. I've been playing since 2006 and I've seen the entire Maple world. The only exploration sentiment I felt was when I first started playing and was too broke to taxi anywhere. But even then, I still feel that the old map wasn't very conducive do exploring anyways. I mean, I rarely made Warriors and Thieves not only because I didn't exactly care for them, but also because getting to both Kerning and Perion was a butt. To this day I've still only made 2 Thieves and 4 Warriors (one being a Demon Slayer). And even still, exploring mostly occurs with new players. I don't explore because it's too easy to get places, but because I've already seen everything.
I don't have much to say but I do have this to say:
You mentioned Monster park as a way to train aside from LHC. How do you expect to get tickets apart from the 3 you can buy every day? After 15mins of monster park, you're already done for the day unless you get more tickets somehow. Since you're 150, you default to... LHC or ToT. Let's just say that Advancing in ToT is going to take unreasonable amounts of time and you might as well just default to LHC.
I will agree however on sins being the scourge of the past. So much frustration to be had from Sins ksing me at sakura cellions while I was just trying to scrounge up some pot money.
Also, you forgot about LMPQ. I rarely did it though because a) it took me years to even get a character past 50 and b) Holy crap it was too confusing.
@Oshimaiden: I went out and used my hyper teleport rock to get all the exploration medals I was missing just for the sake of filling up my collection.
[quote=Arora]So much to read...x_x
You didn't have to put so much effort into writing this, we know what you're talking about, old maple good etc etc.[/quote]
Good to know you didn't read. Very to little effort was put into writing this also. I don't need to put in effort to write decently.