General

[quote=twopointonefour]If a BM is hitting 40 hits per second then each hit only really needs to do 10m with hurricane to match a marksman but because you have such fluctuating damage from AFA and Magic arrows I'd wager 7~8m with hurricane.[/quote]

I took into consideration SI,Monster Park Pots, Speed IA, and the KMS update for MMs.

If a BM is hitting 40 hits per second then each hit only really needs to do 10m with hurricane to match a marksman but because you have such fluctuating damage from AFA and Magic arrows I'd wager 7~8m with hurricane.

[quote=appall]Thanks, that's what I was thinking. Although, I won't have that boss damage if I was to ever refund. I know that %atk would benefit me a lot better instead of having 300%+ boss, but I hit max anyways so what's the point of recubing lol. Thanks all for your input. In the end, II think I'm staying a marksman until the revamp at least.[/quote]

Well your MM is still competetive with the hypotethical BM, so I wouldn't neccesarily switch either. Because of higher realistic dpm maintence (Turret, Magic Arrow lock) and lack of puppet for some bosses, I would be hestitiant to swtich if my hypotehtical BM didn't do around 25m consistently. But that is just me personally.

Thanks, that's what I was thinking. Although, I won't have that boss damage if I was to ever refund. I know that %atk would benefit me a lot better instead of having 300%+ boss, but I hit max anyways so what's the point of recubing lol. Thanks all for your input. In the end, II think I'm staying a marksman until the revamp at least.

[quote=appall]and with that range, I'm guessing 15 m lines on split hurricane? I never played a bowmaster before so I have absolute no idea haha[/quote]

You're looking at 12~16m on resistance bosses (assuming same boss damage) maybe 30~35m on bosses without.

[quote=appall]and with that range, I'm guessing 15 m lines on split hurricane? I never played a bowmaster before so I have absolute no idea haha[/quote]

You probaly should ask a BM that is still playing the game. If I had to guess and doing no calcs whatsoever, conservatively it shouldn't be lower than 10m per line; optimistically, it porbaly won't be more than 17m per line.

and with that range, I'm guessing 15 m lines on split hurricane? I never played a bowmaster before so I have absolute no idea haha

[quote=appall]All this discussion of the lack of potential for MM 1 vs 1 got me curious. What happened to your ranges as you switched to bowmasters? I'm at 1.9m range 330% boss with a bunch of easy upgrades, any rough estimations of what I can expect if I switched? I know it won't be near exact as I am not listing my equips.[/quote]

Visually, your range will be higher (2m+) but that means little outputwise.

All this discussion of the lack of potential for MM 1 vs 1 got me curious. What happened to your ranges as you switched to bowmasters? I'm at 1.9m range 330% boss with a bunch of easy upgrades, any rough estimations of what I can expect if I switched? I know it won't be near exact as I am not listing my equips.

itt: marksmen realizing their flaws.

@bluebomber24: Wow... discrimination against seals? I don't even. In fact, not sure why I got tagged.

@xXMCheifXx: ....If a BM was capping then they went from 36 hits to 40 hits, which is a 1.1x increase. BMs that didn't cap at most saw a 1.3x increase to their dps. WH/MM/Merc simarly have seen a 1.2x to a 1.3x increase in the KMS updates. The only real problem with the MM update is that the bulk of their increase was via a limitation raise. For MMs that cap, that is just a modest decrease in the gap between BMs when compared to the gap prior to the update for BMs in GMS. In other words, as a MM capper, the issue is left mostly unresolved.

After talking to @Nhan1st a bit and doing some cap analysis, I can see where my thoughts on Ryude could have been premature, as I ignored level/stat req and rarity and was largely focused on MMs that do not cap. Ryude wouldn't solve much though in a capping scenario as you wouldn't be competing with BM ever and would need a considerable amount of speed boosts to compete with Merc. Now that I am unfortunately looking at @elufu 's threads seriously, it seems that Nexon is adopting what @appall somewhat alluded to. Atm, Nexon is lumping both MM and WA into a high mob potential, very low 1v1 potential, when it comes to capping and high funding levels. If that truly is their trend it might not change for awhile. If you cap and highly value 1v1 performance, probaly should be any Archer but MM/WA.

@bluebomber24: second paragraph wasn't aimed at you, sorry for the confusion

Actually, looking over my post again, most of it was for the person who said MM's were unnecessarily whining - you happen to have the most insightful posts so I quoted you.

But, you saying that no class needs a 2x increase in DPS is what I found dumb since BM's got nearly/over a triple increase in DPS. My point was that it wouldn't be ridiculous to have a weapon like that for marksmen since it'd be rare AF anyway.

@xXMCheifXx: Why are you talking about whining when my posts have nothing to do with that. If your talking capping in hits/s, yes, MM need changes. If your talking about doubled output, glossing over advantages for all other MM scenarios, and making claims that MM has the lowest dps of Archers, then yes, I will look at it as sarcasm, if not silly. And if you actually analyzed what you quoted, you would see me agreeing that MMs need work, so there is nothing for me to "face". Furthermore, I never stated anything about BMs in my post so I don't know why your bringing up what I think about them. What I will state, and I am sure some can back me up in this, is at MINIMUM there are 3 instances on this forum I stated that BMs were by far the strongest archer as soon as the revamp hit in KMS. I also at least 2 times told BMs to calm down because such a boost means that other classes will be seeing a buff as well; which Wh, Merc, MM did eventually see. So again, nothing for me to "face."

[quote=bluebomber24]That's fine and dandy and I agree that the new MM patch fixes quite a few things that are hindrances for the class. But as it stands, whether you think X class needs a buff or not, no Archer needs nearly a 2x increase in dpm. That is why I can't help but be amused at the audacity of "lets create a weapon that doubles MM's output and as a consolation prize increases the other archers dpm by a smidgen."[/quote]

That's sarcasm, right? My DPS as a Bowmaster more than TRIPLED with the starforce patch. Couldn't solo cv -> 10min solo.
How on earth is that fair? Bowmaster a got to whine and complain for years [b]and it paid off[/b]. No one can beat me in dojo. I can casually solo run oz and solo dorothy. Even with two line snipe, I couldn't beat a BM at dojo, or solo dorothy as easily.

Face it. Bowmasters have broken hits/sec and honestly they need a nerf. Marksmen need a buff, and an extremely rare and expensive weapon to double snipe's lines sounds fair to me.

I'd rather the accuracy stat becoming something a [b]tad[/b](keyword) useful, such as every 999 accuracy becoming 1%ID.

Already got enough of that avoid stat orz.

[quote=appall]At least bowmasters have potential. Say what you want or argue with me, but the true fact of the matter is if you love marksman play style, no matter how much you fund him he will never be able to solo a boss like Dorothy. Or even better, capping at dojo with si and speed inner and not being able to make top 10. It's really discouraging when you've been capping for years and have no further ways to improve. I feel all Marksmen frustration after playing one since the beginning. I never job switched because I like the actual delay attacks compared to rapid fire ones. I think it's unfair to assume Marksman are so easy as well, everyone looks at dps chart and assumes were OP because we got good %dmg at max distance.... how realistic is that though? Try hellux or hard Magnus on a marksman with distance sensing and unstable damage. Our min crit is pathetic. Not as easy as one would think. And to further that, now even were at max distance were still bottom of damage charts. Not like their accurate though, but just making the point. But all that aside, I am looking forward to the marksman revamp as I feel it addresses most of the cons of marksmen. I'm just hoping it's enough to give us high potential, and maybe solo Dorothy or get top dojo gloves, although I'm doubtful.[/quote]

That's fine and dandy and I agree that the new MM patch fixes quite a few things that are hindrances for the class. But as it stands, whether you think X class needs a buff or not, no Archer needs nearly a 2x increase in dpm. That is why I can't help but be amused at the audacity of "lets create a weapon that doubles MM's output and as a consolation prize increases the other archers dpm by a smidgen."

At least bowmasters have potential. Say what you want or argue with me, but the true fact of the matter is if you love marksman play style, no matter how much you fund him he will never be able to solo a boss like Dorothy. Or even better, capping at dojo with si and speed inner and not being able to make top 10. It's really discouraging when you've been capping for years and have no further ways to improve. I feel all Marksmen frustration after playing one since the beginning. I never job switched because I like the actual delay attacks compared to rapid fire ones. I think it's unfair to assume Marksman are so easy as well, everyone looks at dps chart and assumes were OP because we got good %dmg at max distance.... how realistic is that though? Try hellux or hard Magnus on a marksman with distance sensing and unstable damage. Our min crit is pathetic. Not as easy as one would think. And to further that, now even were at max distance were still bottom of damage charts. Not like their accurate though, but just making the point. But all that aside, I am looking forward to the marksman revamp as I feel it addresses most of the cons of marksmen. I'm just hoping it's enough to give us high potential, and maybe solo Dorothy or get top dojo gloves, although I'm doubtful.

@Reconforce946
@bomberboi2

Surprisingly, making dex give more avoid and no accuracy is not a bad idea. The amounts shouldn't have that much of an impact at lower levels and the 90% avoid cap will make guaranteee it never be overpowered The only negative is that at a certain point that boost to avoid will do nothing at all. The only other thing I can think of is that after 1xxx or 10XXX w/e dex the Archer's avoid cap increases by .01% or something. However, dex would only be able to increase the 90% cap to 90.5 to 91% at max.

@bomberb0i2: I haven't seen myself as squishy when training at Warrior Grounds. Drain arrows + blasters + snail = never die/use pots. I'd still like a bigger boost in avoid though.

@reconforce946: well if it does its not a good small boost. and if not that a better mix of avoid and def would be nice since we squishy

[quote=bomberb0i2]the one thing i will say is that Nexon needs to give the Dex stat a better use than just accuracy... it should also give a small boost in avoid aswell[/quote]
I thought it already gave a small boost to avoid.

[quote=bomberb0i2]i swear MM's are always whining about how weak they are, yet nexon is always giving them boosts here and their while BM's have to wait a year for small updateds that should have been given earlier.
y didnt any of u MM's ever complain back when snipe the godliest atk skill? and now it gets even more help with a damage increase and u still complaining... just live with it, thats how all of us bow masters have had to deal with it.

the one thing i will say is that Nexon needs to give the Dex stat a better use than just accuracy... it should also give a small boost in avoid aswell[/quote]

This guy gets it. Tons of whiny Snipers. You know what, if they want a higher cap give it to them. That being said nerf the ever living hell out of the snipe % dmg. That way snipers can be funded but also take funding. You can't have your cake and eat it snipers.

i swear MM's are always whining about how weak they are, yet nexon is always giving them boosts here and their while BM's have to wait a year for small updateds that should have been given earlier.
y didnt any of u MM's ever complain back when snipe the godliest atk skill? and now it gets even more help with a damage increase and u still complaining... just live with it, thats how all of us bow masters have had to deal with it.

the one thing i will say is that Nexon needs to give the Dex stat a better use than just accuracy... it should also give a small boost in avoid aswell

Marksmen ARE master race.

But being serious, we do need some serious help, because as we stand now, even capping 100% on anything with Snipe, we are pretty weak compared to other classes. The buffs that KMS just got are a nice start, but I'd love to see a 1bil Snipe cap. <3

@xXMCheifXx: going to assume half of that is sarcasm.

As for the other half, I was pointing out clear funding advantages that add up and make it fair when comparing to other Archer classes. Creating a Ryude xbow is not what MM need unless one wants MM to be "master race"

Snipe should just have no damage cap but have less % damage. That way highly funded mms would be worthwhile and it will not be as easy for people to hit crazy numbers.

If there would be a ryudes xbow, wouldn't marksman gain a 3rd line because of the additional bolt skill? o.o

id maybe play mm again if they changed snipe to a 1b dmg cap instead of 500, or have a xbow equivalent to ryudes sword to do two lines of 500m.

[quote=xXMCheifXx]because no other archer classes uses a stupid slow ass attack, everyone else uses hurricane type skills that don't relay on a cast delay

for a crappy slow attack, which has ridiculous spread from low mastery & that gets out DPS'd when fully capping to EVERY other archer class?

3~6% attack isn't going to make a very big difference, sorry to tell you. and makes it irrelevant since all bowmen classes can cap. marksmen have the lowest potential out of all of them.

yeah, that'd be cool, considering we are the lowest of the archer classes on the DPS charts[/quote]

r u srs? BMs need it most and triple shadow partner like NW.

And all this time I thought you were 2m2m no clown....smh

[quote=bluebomber24]You have free Speed Boost from Monster Park potions that no other Archer gets a serious benefit from[/quote]

because no other archer classes uses a stupid slow ass attack, everyone else uses hurricane type skills that don't relay on a cast delay

[quote=bluebomber24]free 100% critical rate compared to non-Explorer Archers[/quote]

for a crappy slow attack, which has ridiculous spread from low mastery & that gets out DPS'd when fully capping to EVERY other archer class?

[quote=bluebomber24]and a superior Emblem compared to non-Explorer Archers.[/quote]

3~6% attack isn't going to make a very big difference, sorry to tell you. and makes it irrelevant since all bowmen classes can cap. marksmen have the lowest potential out of all of them.

[quote=bluebomber24]and you want a weapon that benefits MM the most too. Well gee golly![/quote]

yeah, that'd be cool, considering we are the lowest of the archer classes on the DPS charts

You have free Speed Boost from Monster Park potions that no other Archer gets a serious benefit from, free 100% critical rate compared to non-Explorer Archers, and a superior Emblem compared to non-Explorer Archers.

and you want a weapon that benefits MM the most too. Well gee golly!

@nhan1st: Oh, I'm not sure, I just assumed so. If it's not related to bowman, I have very little interest LOL.

And that was comparing it with KMS's reduced snipe delay. (The extractions for it are on SP).

@Elufu I thought ryudes doesn't apply stacks to AFA? Anyhow, we'll have to see how much lower kms reduced snipe's delay for.

Depends if the MM has extra weapon speed bonuses but in the time they shoot 1 snipe .. hurricane and variants would've fired 6.5 times plus afa.. >extra 500m on snipe?

But yeah... a bowman equivalent would be nice.