General

[quote=squire7766]@yeungmoney:

I haven't logged in quite a bit, but drop me a mail and we can set up an experiment or something[/quote]

I went on my Thunder Breaker and I seemed to lack Stance while chaining. This is odd, because it used to work, and there's no mention of it being removed in the most recent patch notes; I assume Nexon messed up and it's a glitch. I sincerely doubt they'd remove it without mention in the patch notes.

@yeungmoney:

I haven't logged in quite a bit, but drop me a mail and we can set up an experiment or something

[quote=singsangsong]Actually, Nexon did make Spiral Assault cancel out animations in KMST (There should be videos in Youtube showcasing this). KMS Buccaneers were pretty hyped for this change but when the patch went live, the Bucc change was not implemented without notice.[/quote]
Yes, I know it was implemented in KMST. I was pretty excited for it but, it didn't go through into the live servers after all. Therefore I mentioned it again here.

[quote=XAznNinja]Personally I don't think Buccaneers are in a solid state at all right now. Too many people seem to be blinded by damage than to actually see the bigger picture. It may be true that we are fairly strong without as much funding as other classes, however visible damage isn't the only thing that makes a class strong or overpowered. To put it into perspective, if you can't even survive or if you are not in range to attack, you are not dealing damage. For being the most short ranged class in the game we have literally no escapes and huge delays on our skills. Which is an extreme handicap at all the new bosses that have and are coming out. The Maple era has clearly changed from the standard boss runs where all you had to worry about was keeping your HP up and watching out for DR. Now is the era where most of these new bosses WILL punish you if you can't dodge properly or simply if you don't have the following benefits that most of the up to date classes do have. -Cough- Shades/Night Walkers.
- A second life every 5 minutes
- Godmode (in other words Dark Sight)
- Skills to void or take status effects for you
- Skill canceling
- Binding skills

The theme(s) that Buccaneers seem to be based on has always made me question our identity. However, I do think the energy theme is fine for us. Energy/Ki has always had a place in martial arts to 'empower' our attacks. Rather the way its presented is what I don't like. Summoning our old Super Transform sprite to attack with/for us doesn't really fit the whole 1v1 feel that traditional hand-to-hand combat is based on. Simply making our attacks stronger/producing energy blasts is more than enough. I would like to see improvements on the way we move around though. When I think of Buccaneers I think of fragile and speed, after all we do have a second booster skill called SPEED Infusion and we wear very little and light weight armor. In other words, a risk vs reward play style where you get punished for not maneuvering properly. (Similar to our old invincibility frames play style)

As for your revamp, there are a few things I don't like. Flash Jab/Cross/Upper/Focus sounds very limiting to me since you have to chain them together, if you played an Aran or TB before you probably know what I mean. I prefer the versatility and freedom that Octopunch provides at the moment. I believe keeping both Corkscrew Blow and Spiral Assault is a better idea. Back when they both could be chained together it gave us some massive and much needed mobility. They both have their own niches too since they both move you forward to different set distances. Distortion Punch, rather than thinking its overpowered, I think its underpowered. A few classes are already able to ignore DR completely, namely Kaisers. Also all the new end game bosses don't really utilize DR as much anymore. I'd prefer a skill that incorporates some stun/bind mechanics instead. Like I stated a bit earlier, I'd prefer to keep Buccaneer Blast and our energy concept intact.

On an end note I'll list a few skill suggestions/changes myself.
- Remove Dice and Pirate's Revenge (they are both luck based skills that would fit better on the gambling luck based Phantom instead)
- Change Stun Mastery's critical rate increase to work on bosses (as it stands right now its useless)
- Reduce the cooldown on Time Leap
- Allow Speed Infusion to break the speed cap and passively give more speed to Buccaneers (currently our SI and even Decent SI benefit every other class WAY more than ourselves)
- Decrease the cast delay on Octopunch (right now classes like Heroes actually have a FASTER cast time on their 1v1 skills compared to us, which makes total sense because swords can be swung faster than knuckles right?)
- Add vertical mobility
- Allow Corkscrew Blow/Spiral Assault to cancel animations like Backstep
- Add a skill that has a stun/bind mechanic (Ex. For 20 seconds all our attack skills stun monsters and bosses for 5 seconds, 200 second cooldown)
- Bring back some old skills like Backspin Blow, Energy Orb, Snatch (they were always useful and I can still see them working today)[/quote]

Actually, Nexon did make Spiral Assault cancel out animations in KMST (There should be videos in Youtube showcasing this). KMS Buccaneers were pretty hyped for this change but when the patch went live, the Bucc change was not implemented without notice.

I like this idea. Id probably get annoyed from getting knocked back a lot though. It would be great if the skills were able to be used while jumping around so you arent stationary 24/7

Even though I never played a Buccaneer before RED I did try to come up with something that might work for what they are today. Also I'm going with the current change to our Stance being passive over at KMS since I know it'll be coming around soon for us too.

1st Job: Rework Dash as a passive, give it 20-25 speed & jump.

2nd job: Allow Tornado Uppercut to be used near edges. (I just find it mildly annoying sometimes when I try to attack I'm over an edge.)
Remove the effects of the added speed and jump from are charges since I don't feel they really benefit for us as much. (Because of Dash being passive now.)
Increase the duration of Dark Clarity to 200-210 seconds. (I personally feel it just doesn't last too particular long.)

3rd job: Decrease the delay on Energy Blast. (Not by a whole lot mind you, but make it just a tad more faster.)
Increase the duration of Admiral's Wings to 200-210 seconds as well. (Same reason for Dark Clarity and one other skill coming up)

4th job: Decrease Time Leap's cooldown to 15-20 minutes. (This skill is too good to begin with, but I do agree 25 minutes normally is a tad bit long for any convenient use most of the time.)
Crossbones' duration to 200-210 seconds. (Same reason as the other 2.)
Increase the distance for Octopunch. (The distance covered is pretty shallow. Even Nexon of Korea knows this, but they just increase the damage instead.)

Personally I don't think Buccaneers are in a solid state at all right now. Too many people seem to be blinded by damage than to actually see the bigger picture. It may be true that we are fairly strong without as much funding as other classes, however visible damage isn't the only thing that makes a class strong or overpowered. To put it into perspective, if you can't even survive or if you are not in range to attack, you are not dealing damage. For being the most short ranged class in the game we have literally no escapes and huge delays on our skills. Which is an extreme handicap at all the new bosses that have and are coming out. The Maple era has clearly changed from the standard boss runs where all you had to worry about was keeping your HP up and watching out for DR. Now is the era where most of these new bosses WILL punish you if you can't dodge properly or simply if you don't have the following benefits that most of the up to date classes do have. -Cough- Shades/Night Walkers.
- A second life every 5 minutes
- Godmode (in other words Dark Sight)
- Skills to void or take status effects for you
- Skill canceling
- Binding skills

The theme(s) that Buccaneers seem to be based on has always made me question our identity. However, I do think the energy theme is fine for us. Energy/Ki has always had a place in martial arts to 'empower' our attacks. Rather the way its presented is what I don't like. Summoning our old Super Transform sprite to attack with/for us doesn't really fit the whole 1v1 feel that traditional hand-to-hand combat is based on. Simply making our attacks stronger/producing energy blasts is more than enough. I would like to see improvements on the way we move around though. When I think of Buccaneers I think of fragile and speed, after all we do have a second booster skill called SPEED Infusion and we wear very little and light weight armor. In other words, a risk vs reward play style where you get punished for not maneuvering properly. (Similar to our old invincibility frames play style)

As for your revamp, there are a few things I don't like. Flash Jab/Cross/Upper/Focus sounds very limiting to me since you have to chain them together, if you played an Aran or TB before you probably know what I mean. I prefer the versatility and freedom that Octopunch provides at the moment. I believe keeping both Corkscrew Blow and Spiral Assault is a better idea. Back when they both could be chained together it gave us some massive and much needed mobility. They both have their own niches too since they both move you forward to different set distances. Distortion Punch, rather than thinking its overpowered, I think its underpowered. A few classes are already able to ignore DR completely, namely Kaisers. Also all the new end game bosses don't really utilize DR as much anymore. I'd prefer a skill that incorporates some stun/bind mechanics instead. Like I stated a bit earlier, I'd prefer to keep Buccaneer Blast and our energy concept intact.

On an end note I'll list a few skill suggestions/changes myself.
- Remove Dice and Pirate's Revenge (they are both luck based skills that would fit better on the gambling luck based Phantom instead)
- Change Stun Mastery's critical rate increase to work on bosses (as it stands right now its useless)
- Reduce the cooldown on Time Leap
- Allow Speed Infusion to break the speed cap and passively give more speed to Buccaneers (currently our SI and even Decent SI benefit every other class WAY more than ourselves)
- Decrease the cast delay on Octopunch (right now classes like Heroes actually have a FASTER cast time on their 1v1 skills compared to us, which makes total sense because swords can be swung faster than knuckles right?)
- Add vertical mobility
- Allow Corkscrew Blow/Spiral Assault to cancel animations like Backstep
- Add a skill that has a stun/bind mechanic (Ex. For 20 seconds all our attack skills stun monsters and bosses for 5 seconds, 200 second cooldown)
- Bring back some old skills like Backspin Blow, Energy Orb, Snatch (they were always useful and I can still see them working today)

@squire7766: can I find you in game today? I'm literally going crazy about this debacle.

[quote=yeungmoney]@Tricks122: Yeah... I don't know if you know.. in the last few patches... we lost ALL stance... we never had any passive stance to begin with, and we lost stance from chaining combos[/quote]

Really? Im still able to remain in place when im spamming Thunderbolt+Shark sweep

LF> Dempsey Roll hyper skill

[quote=yeungmoney]@Tricks122: Yeah... I don't know if you know.. in the last few patches... we lost ALL stance... we never had any passive stance to begin with, and we lost stance from chaining combos[/quote]

Congratulations, you are now playing a Marauder/Buccaneer in terms of Stance when they weren't charged before one of their revamps(Also note that Charge was painfully slow, even when leveled, and was based on how many mobs you hit, meaning it was rarely active during bosses; the duration was also fixed rather than based on your attacks). Have Nexon actually said this is intended, or is it a glitch(Similar to how Power Unity was glitched for a long period of time and failed to buff, how Dragon Strike while using Super Transformation was glitched rendering it significantly slower and how both Transformation states were glitched to be dispelled in terms of effects while the buff remains, long before Status Resistance was a thing)?

Because really, unless it was in the patch notes, it's not that big of a deal in comparison to the glaring issues other classes have gone through. I don't see anything in their patch notes, so y'know, you might not want to whine for a revamp when it seems your issue is not intended, and is insignificant in comparison to, say, what Kannas recently went through.

@Tricks122: Yeah... I don't know if you know.. in the last few patches... we lost ALL stance... we never had any passive stance to begin with, and we lost stance from chaining combos

[quote=yeungmoney]Forget bucc revamp... Where is the thunder breaker revamp.. I think maybe a drain skill would do for a chain combo, or at least give some passive stance...[/quote]

You can use potions while chaining without severe lag, and passive stance isn't totally needed because you have it guaranteed while chaining(When do you NEED Stance if you aren't hitting something, because I don't usually see Stance as being needed otherwise). Over time, Buccaneers have always been given inferiority in comparison to Thunder Breakers(Back when Cygnus Knights originally came out, Thunder Breakers were insanely better and dominated Brawlers/Marauders more-so than other classes dominated their others, particularly in 3rd job due to Shark Wave and Marauders only having Energy Blast with a slow charge-up), and Thunder Breakers are based on chaining; they got revamped completely at some point, after Buccaneers did.

Not every class needs a drain skill or passive Stance. If you can't handle a Thunder Breaker now, well... they used to have second job Energy Charge, while Explorers only got it at Marauder, and they also got much better mobbing(Facilitating both charging and their overall mobbing ability). Thunder Breakers might not be great, but Buccaneers have gotten less than they have throughout MapleStory history, and other classes even got some of their iconic moves, which is a bigger slap in the face.

So yeah... Buccaneers and Thunder Breakers might both be in need of some chances, but one class has been screwed with every change more than the other: the answer is not Thunder Breaker.

Forget bucc revamp... Where is the thunder breaker revamp.. I think maybe a drain skill would do for a chain combo, or at least give some passive stance...

[quote=Tricks122]Personally I liked the concept that bosses could be stunned, but would be immune to its effects; this means that they could be inflicted by it, giving us the boost, but not actually be stunned. The problem here, I think, is how critical rates are rather high; I have 71% critical rate, so I'm only getting a 39% boost(Less with a or two 4 roll(s) on my Dice, less if I had Beast Tamer link...). It doesn't help a huge amount while training after a point, and eventually becomes useless; it just makes more sense, to me, to re-work it because of how Stuns aren't really important or good, and Binds are too 'normal'.

It could also increase damage on stunned enemies with a lower overall boost to critical hit chance; when combined with a 'bosses can be stunned, but not actually be stunned' change, it would help us out a fair bit in the damage department, especially considering how Pirate's Revenge is useless in many cases due to the percent based damage taken to have a chance at making it work.[/quote]

I do agree with that. It seems to me like the buccaneer has become a little bit closer to a critical hit dependent class, so maybe working with that would be nice.

Like for example, on my buccaneer at the moment, after using Unity, I have 90% min and 100% max crit, which is rather high.

[quote=squire7766]You know, alternatively they could make "stun" work on bosses, similar to bind skills. Like for example, binding with a Shade leaves the boss immobilized, yet after the effect the boss is immune to it for about 60 seconds (they could increase this as to balance out Stun's effect; or decrease the proc of it)

I mean, for the sake of practicality, it does help when training/mobbing, But it's so useless during bossing[/quote]

Personally I liked the concept that bosses could be stunned, but would be immune to its effects; this means that they could be inflicted by it, giving us the boost, but not actually be stunned. The problem here, I think, is how critical rates are rather high; I have 71% critical rate, so I'm only getting a 39% boost(Less with a or two 4 roll(s) on my Dice, less if I had Beast Tamer link...). It doesn't help a huge amount while training after a point, and eventually becomes useless; it just makes more sense, to me, to re-work it because of how Stuns aren't really important or good, and Binds are too 'normal'.

It could also increase damage on stunned enemies with a lower overall boost to critical hit chance; when combined with a 'bosses can be stunned, but not actually be stunned' change, it would help us out a fair bit in the damage department, especially considering how Pirate's Revenge is useless in many cases due to the percent based damage taken to have a chance at making it work.

[quote=Tricks122].[/quote]

You know, alternatively they could make "stun" work on bosses, similar to bind skills. Like for example, binding with a Shade leaves the boss immobilized, yet after the effect the boss is immune to it for about 60 seconds (they could increase this as to balance out Stun's effect; or decrease the proc of it)

I mean, for the sake of practicality, it does help when training/mobbing, But it's so useless during bossing

[quote=KamikazeDes]I also have an idea:
Ultra Charge: In addition to its previous affects, Ultra Charge now lets you fight along with your Super Transformed state when fully charged. The Super Transformed State does 75% of your damage.[/quote]

So Shadow Partner, a skill that... a lot of classes have now? How original...

I mean, no offense, but there are some better 'changes' that could be done. I may have read this somewhere before, but see below.

Let's say "Stun Mastery" is now called "Bruiser". With each attack, either overall(Ex: one Octopunch) or each hit(Ex: Octopunch would have eight, nine with the Hyper, chances), an enemy, bosses included, could become 'bruised'. This fits in with the fist mentality, but it could also be called many other things. This could be a debuff that could do a variety of things, such as, but not limited to: unlocking added effects to each move past a certain amount of 'stacks'(For example, using Dragon Strike could activate a de-buff to enemies, or buff yourself, after use IF it hit an enemy with enough stacks; this could allow older moves to still be used, and provide a variety of buffs/de-buffs), standard buffs/de-buffs(Similar to Night Walkers and their Mark of Darkness), unlocking certain moves in general(Although this would need a counter rather than a de-buff on enemies, most likely) or have the option of 'using' them to do various things(For example, increasing the effectiveness of some buffs).

There are a lot of choices, but adding variety to the class is important; just shoving a Shadow Partner onto it is a lazy addition, especially when it's a buff with nothing else attached. There are plenty of ways to make the class more unique, and every class more unique, if a little effort is put in; my idea above was thought about in five minutes, imagine what someone who had access to programming and much more time could do...

[quote=KamikazeDes]I also have an idea:
Ultra Charge: In addition to its previous affects, Ultra Charge now lets you fight along with your Super Transformed state when fully charged. The Super Transformed State does 75% of your damage.[/quote]

Overpowered Shadow partner. But this would definitely increase the amount of hits per second a Bucc does and make them ridiculously strong.

[quote=KamikazeDes]I also have an idea:
Ultra Charge: In addition to its previous affects, Ultra Charge now lets you fight along with your Super Transformed state when fully charged. The Super Transformed State does 75% of your damage.[/quote]

*Drool*

I also have an idea:
Ultra Charge: In addition to its previous affects, Ultra Charge now lets you fight along with your Super Transformed state when fully charged. The Super Transformed State does 75% of your damage.

@SilverFoxR Pirates are not known for these finesse; what you're looking for is more of a martial-artist type character who would fit better into either the Thief sub-set or the Sengoku sub-set, depending on what Nexon would do with it and if they draw from Maple or real-life... but we are not a refined class. We are not MEANT to be refined. There is no reason to change an energy based fighter(We have ALWAYS been this) to a purely fist-fighting class when it makes zero sense to do so.

I admit, it would be interesting to see a less 'flashy' fist-fighting class, but it would do better in the Thief(Mobility department) or the Sengoku(Real-life martial arts style) class, rather than as a revamp to any of the existing classes, because doing so to Buccaneer is just... silly, in my opinion. It'd be like removing the core elements of a Corsair and making them a realistic "shoot gun" class instead.

Well, I wouldn't say I'm trying to "bring them back to the old style" entirely... but give them something that more resembles a fist fighting class rather than using a lot of big, flashy... DBZ-esque skills... mainly because I don't think they fit all that well. Personally, when I think of a martial artist or class that uses their fists, I think of a somewhat nimble character that can get in close, pour on the damage and get out just as quickly... not someone who can stand halfway across the room and fire beam canons continuously. Shade is the closest of the 3 that resembles this, but really, it's another high-flash character that relies on power that isn't entirely it's own. I think it'd just be nice to see a fist fighter actually fight with their fists... even if their fists are extended with an effect of sorts. Even if it's not a revamp to a Buccaneer, I think a lot of people would enjoy something like this...

[quote=SilverFoxR]-snip-[/quote]

Nexon could just make it so the maximum attack speed was higher and remove attack speed boosting potions in order to make Speed Infusion a good skill for most classes; alternatively, give Time Leap a lower cool-down or additional effect.

The problem with your 'revamp', like many others, is it complains about a certain area(Ex: old Buccaneers before their revamp) and then seeks to remedy this with changes that don't return us to the previous status. It actually wouldn't be that difficult to have Barrage and Demolition be main skills once more, they just need to be re-worked to allow us to either cancel out of them with an attack(If Shade hadn't existed, this would be Backspin Blow) or given them modified speed so they aren't painfully slow. If they are slow, then modding the damage cap was possible, but Nexon is lazy like that, which leads to the Buccaneer we know today.

Shade is not a spirit fist fighter, they are more like a sort of 'spirit bender'. If you'll notice in most of their skills, it is a spirit that primarily does the punching; this is more akin to, say, Evans and their dragon doing skills in which the character 'assists', rather than being a part of them. Many of them also involve no punching at all, more-so than Buccaneers! Similarly, Thunder Breakers don't really "punch" in many of their attacks; they tend to revolve around water(Not lightning, in many cases) and its manipulation. Two of their primary skills in 4th job don't even involve punching, so... it's kind of naive to refer to them like that.

Buccaneers, while assisted by the Super Transformation sprite, are using an 'extension of themselves' in their attacks. That sprite was previously attached to our state, and really, it's essentially a manifestation of our power, unlike Shades, Evans and the like, who another entity to augment their own power.

I was looking over future updates on what to expect. The only change was removing the stance effect from our Charges, and added it with Hp boost as a passive altogether. However according to a tespia patch they were also trying to rework Spiral Assault in to some sort of link skill. Whether it would've made it better or not I can't say for sure.

If I can make a suggestion even though this may sound REALLY stupid, but I think they should remove Buccaneer Blast, and rework Octopunch into a mobbing and bossing skill. What I think might work is when not charged it does maybe 270-280%, or it can stay at 320% whichever. However the number enemies hit will be 6-7, but when fully charged it goes to 8-9 (preference of course). Also maybe give it similar distance coverage akin to Battle Mage's blows,(?) or have Dragon Strike fulfill the role for our better coverage on distance. As to what will replace our Blast? I think we have enough passives, buffs, and attacks as is, so I don't think it needs a replacement. Granted if this whole thing sounds stupid I won't argue, but this is generally how I think might(?) work.

I'm just hoping they would increase the god damn octopunch's range. It's so misleading.

Yeah... I see what you mean. The Distortion Punch was mainly put in to make for a useful skill in parties (a single hit that removed DR so other classes that don't have a way to bypass it could get in)... I kind of made that one up on the fly though =p.

Mostly, the idea was to make it so, like classes like Aran, Kaiser, Hayato and Battlemages, they had a main combo technique that used the attack key and became more powerful every job level. It would allow them to deliver quick strikes and be up-close like the good ol' days. Of course, this put them in danger as well, so I also added Backstep and would alter Corkscrew Blow a little bit, so they could cancel into each other, allowing the Brawler class to slide back, then immediately come in, strike, combo in, then back out if need be. It'd kind of be like boxing ultimately... able to lay in the punishment, but also shift around to evade attacks.

As for the "energy based fist fighter" Buccs are... all of the classes can be summarized in that way partly... Shade is the "spirit energy fist fighter" while TB is the "lightning energy fist fighter"... though very little of their fists do the actual fighting. Octopunch is the closest thing anyone gets to doing so, but even then, it's the Super Transform entity doing the majority of those punches.

Perhaps I'll look over the lists and change some attacks and add some more variety in there later on.

Usually when I ever complain about Buccaneers not being a class that uses their fist very often everyone points to Shade. I would like them to make Buccaneers more fist oriented, but... it would be kinda hard now considering again Shade is what my mind immediately goes too now.

naah

@Tricks122:

Ah must've glanced over it too quickly, thanks~

@squire7766 He has a third job skill with Stance. It's not that huge of an issue considering how Stance used to be exclusive to Warriors(Minus the pseudo-Stance Thieves had with their ridiculous Avoidability).

On topic, I don't like this revamp. It's essentially taking the class and making its mechanics similar to Arans or Shades, directly stealing one of their skills(Which was originally ours, but whatever) and adds a blatantly broken skill(Distortion Punch) in order to put some kind of 'head-canon' into the class. While Buccaneers have always punched things, they've also always been a class that was heavy on alternate ways to fight, with many of their skills not being punches in some manner(Energy Orb, Shockwave, Dragon Strike, Snatch and Energy Blast, to a degree, as well as Demolition to another degree; Transformation and Super Transformation were also odd skills).

Buccaneers are fine as they are conceptually, they are Energy-based fist fighting classes for their advancements. I would be all for removing certain skills and reinstating their previous iterations(Such as Tornado Uppercut being replaced by Uppercut), but Maple has changed, those skills are obsolete(They could of course revamp them in some way, but that takes a lot of knowledge and would still make us a poor bossing class) and trying to change a class to be based on fist-fighting [i]when they have always had many skills that weren't based around that aspect[/i] just seems... silly to me.

And in general, I find it(Changing Buccaneers to be just fist-fighters) tends to be the opinion of people who preferred the old Maple and dislike any of the recent changes, or who didn't really play a Buccaneer much and just saw them.

What I'm wondering is why would you give a "punching class" no stance lol
Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of a class that has to hit from up close? If you increase the horizontal range, it essentially becomes a spirit puncher or something of that sort.
And even with increased horizontal range, it seems kind of lame to not even give it some type of passive stance.

What buccs really need is a vertical strike, or anything that allows it to move platform to platform without the clunkiness of FJ