General

[quote=Srurtuphr]Hi there
I'm not usually the one who cares about damage of other characters, but the difference here seems to be ridiculous to me. Especially considering chaos doubles their speed attack.
I'm comparing mostly to I/Ls, not really to bishops or F/Ps, but since they're all pretty much close, it's pretty much the same. Also comparing mostly to 3rd/4th job when it comes to attacks.
I'm relying on just looking at skills from hidden street so correct me on anything that's wrong here. =)

[b]Ice/Lightning[/b]
Total passive buffs for I/Ls:
+40 m.att, 50% spell mastery, 50% buff duration, +150% ele amp, 30% to absorb 40% Max MP (20% and 10% respectively in chaos)
Active buffs: +20 m.att, +3 attack speed, +120 w.def and m.def, +10% m.att every 4 seconds for 40 seconds, 3 minutes CD

[b]Evans[/b]
Total passive buffs:
+60 m.att, 70% spell mastery, crit +30%, +135% magic amp, M.att +30% when MP is between 40% and 100%, min crit +15%
Active buffs: absorb 30% dmg, +3 attack speed, +20% m.resistance, recover 80% mp, w.def and m.def +250, m.att +30 and ressurect

[b]3rd/4th Job Main attacks[/b]:
Ice Strike - 450% on 6 enemies, freeze 2 seconds
Chain Lightning - 740% on 3 enemies
Big Bang - 290% 5 times, on 6 monsters
Ice Demon - 260%, 6 enemies, DoT: 15 sec, Deals 100% damage every 1 sec and deals extra Ice damage for 15 sec
Elquines - 160 sec, Damage: 330%, Freeze Duration: 3 sec
Blizzard - 1400% (1600 on chaos) on 15 enemies, 205% DoT, Level 1 starts at 820%, CD of 30 seconds at master level

[b]Attacks (I hope I get the right main attacks, I listed a lot cuz I have no idea what you use )[/b]
Fire Breath - Damage 540%, Stun Chance: 30%
Earthquake - Damage 740%, hits up to 8 enemies
Phantom Imprint - Damage: 800%, Bonus Damage: 5% for 8 seconds.
Illusion - Damage 370% 4 times (1480% total)
Flame Wheel - Damage 740% 6 enemies
Blaze - 800%, hits up to 6 enemies, 90% Chance to stun for 4 seconds
Dark Fog - Damage 1800% (1950 on chaos), Critical Chance 20%, Level 1 starts at 1220%, CD *20* seconds at master

I know classes are different, and that's GOOD. I don't want all classes to be like I/Ls and F/Ps who are basically copies of each other. But where is the balance here?
Forget mechs, WHs and whatnot, where is the balance BETWEEN us mage classes? if Evans were slightly stronger, I wouldn't mind because, come on, it's impossible to completely balance it.
But this much of a difference?
Discuss! =D
Oh and, I know I didn't list any chaos updates except ultimates, I'm not gonna look at Spadow and go through each blog to find out exact changes [/quote]

really dude only one word is needed they or (legends) what good it a legend mage if its the same as any other mage?

This thread makes me QQ about the I/L I just made.

Buuut, It's nice to see the comments from people who've played both.

Though either way, I made I/L because I like the attacks (visually) and the idea of being an ice elementalist, not the damage or speed.

It would be nice for all mages to be more balanced across the entire board, ofcourse. P: Among eachother AND attackers.

IMO mages should outdamage melee classes, but be slower. Like ultimate attacks, except even more damage, and a 5 second cooldown as apposed to 2. (Or however long it would take a melee class to wipe out monsters within the same range. 5-10 seconds I would think)

Sry but evans will always be best sry but its true. I prefer my I/L

If " it's impossible to completely balance it ". Then what is the point of this thread. All you're doing is making people annoyed with your attitude.

@Taichikara Being the Aryan "race" MEANS thinking you are above others, and all the their ideology that comes with it. If that is not enough however, I asked him specifically if he feels he is superior to Jews, blacks and other races on another thread, and he said he does.
Yes, I suppose I should have changed the title to just I/Ls, but honestly F/Ps and I/Ls are downright almost copies of each other, so I don't think there's much problem comparing them.

@Aracana It seems you like to nitpick the specific parts of my thread while ignoring the rest.
"I'm relying on just looking at skills from hidden street so correct me on anything that's wrong here. =)"
I said so right at the begining. I was saying that I'm not really familiar with Evans personally on several parts of my thread, and I have said that I'm looking for corrections. Instead, you choose to see this as whining, and say "you need to check things better", after I have specifically said that I would welcome corrections. Yeah, so I didn't google Evans and started reading 20 spadow pages to know specific changes- exactly the reason I said I want corrections. I relied on what my Evan frieds told me in the game, which was that Evans are only gonna be more buffed and stronger after chaos.

Buffs. OK, so maybe the active buffs aren't all useful, but let's focus on some passive buffs and active ones.
With a total of all Magic related buffs (active and passive), I\Ls get +60 M.att (with med), 150% amp, 50% mastery. Also 10% every 4 seconds for 40 seconds with infinity.
Evans - +90 m.att (with your active buff, but yes, it should be considered that it's a very high lvl to even just start adding to it), +135% amp, 70% mastery, +20% (post chaos, thanks Taichikara =) M.att when MP between 40% and 100%, min crit +15%
You're trying way too hard to twist my words on the buffs thing. What I was saying is basically this:
There shouldn't be 2 mage classes, where one gets less buffs, that generally are less good and the other gets more buffs, that are generally better than the other class's buffs.
I'm not really sure on other changes, except what Taichikara said, so you're welcome to correct anything.
Also, from what I know, Evans have very high minimum, close to maximum damage, don't forget to consider that as well.

Comparing CL to blaze isn't really fair. I/Ls and F/Ps don't really get as many attacks as Evans. 1st job is magic claw, 2nd job is thunderbolt, 3rd job ice strike, 4th job CL. That's basically it, while you get more "main" attacks if you like- by that I mean, of course we get Ice Demon for example, but it's not really a "main" attack.
I feel like I need to say it for some people, so - Again, I would still welcome any corrections if I'm wrong.

"The first class", erm, change the word "first" with "other". I wasn't talking about original classes or whatever. =3
Cheers.

From playing these 2 classes myself, 170 evan and 182 i/l, to me they kill mobs roughly at the same speed. One would do better than the other in a few maps though.

As for bosses, my evan wins out with illusion on magic resistant bosses like dodo, leviathan...all the ones that require my i/l to use Elemental reset. Likewise my i/l destroys lightning weak bosses with cl. For other bosses I would say my evan is better overall then again it depends how much hp the boss has. i/l\'s max infinity during the last 20secs shreds a ton more hp away.

Yea evan hits higher dmg but they usually can only do 1 single attack at a time unlike an i/l. I/l can do cL + ice demon DoT + elquines + tele mastery (optional) + mana reflect (magic casting mobs/boss only) all in almost 1 cast of illusion for example. As for ultimates, if they both do dmg cap then explorer mage (except bishop) would win because of the DoT that follows.

To me they are sorta balanced overall except for bossing.

*I share the same set of equips between these 2 chars aside from the dragon equips.

[quote=Srurtuphr]@Arcana I don't see why you people keep seeing this as whining. It\'s as if you feel I\'m personally attacking you and your class so you automatically scream whining.[/quote]

Notice the bold sentences in my last post. Here Ima explain again why we think you are whining.
Below quote was from your original word
1.[b]\"where is the balance BETWEEN us mage classes? if Evans were slightly stronger, I wouldn\'t mind because, come on, it\'s impossible to completely balance it. But this much of a difference?\"[/b] You complain about the \"HUGE imbalance\" between the two classes without knowing how evan and I/L skills are working pre and post-chaos in the first place, and you didn\'t even wanna go look it up as you said yourself.
2.[b]\"I don\'t want those same buffs, I just don\'t think it\'s right for 1 class to have 4-5 buffs, and the other to have twice as much, especially when all of those buffs, without exception, are individually better than the the first class\'s buffs.\"[/b] Why is it not right for a class to have 4-5 buffs? Because you don\'t want same buffs, so it would be so unbalanced that others get diff/new buffs? You don\'t want same buffs, does that mean you want more buffs? But again, you said it s not right for a class to have a lot buffs? And how do you know that all our buffs are individually better than yours when you didn\'t even wanna learn how our skills work? And as many people have said, each class is different, Evan is attack-support class, you are attacking class, why are you demanding we'd be the same? And what did you mean by \"the first class\"? Original MS classes? Again, why can't new classes can have \"better\"(I put quote because you thought they are all better) buffs than the original class\'s buffs?

Also, as [b]Taichikara[/b] said, a lot of our good skills are only available when we reach lvl160, and to max any of them out, we need to be at least lvl165 (for soul stone max only), at least lvl169 for blessing onyx/blaze/dark fog, and this is under the condition that we put SP in 1 skill only. So if in any situation that evan may be a little stronger, there is a cost. I mean how would you feel if nexon change your C/L to a lvl160-only skill?

I\'m not saying that you are attacking us, I\'m saying you totally could've done your research first, then nicely discuss your opinion, people (at least most people) wouldn\'t be rude to you.

And the last thing i wanna say which I forgot in the last post, you said I [b]completely ignored what you said right at the beginning,Evans are getting a serious attack speed buff. [/b] Well, I\'m gonna say, you completely ignored what you said in your thread, you input the CURRENT PRE-CHAOS Evan skill damage in you thread AND the POST-CHAOS Evan skill speed together to whine about how unbalanced it is. Then you blamed many people for not reading your post carefully. And once again, the most sentence you said that really pissed people is your last sentence [b]Oh and, I know I didn\'t list any chaos updates except ultimates, I'm not gonna look at Spadow and go through each blog to find out exact changes [/b] If you wanna compare both classes post-chaos, then why didn't you look at it?

i recently made a Evan he is lvl 78 and the thing is Evans are slower then mages i/l until a couple levels after 80 were slow as heck in bossing and in jesters we get KS'ed a lot

@Arcana I don't see why you people keep seeing this as whining. It's as if you feel I'm personally attacking you and your class so you automatically scream whining.

Again with the rude thing? really?
So, you'll just completely ignore the fact they were rude to begin with?
Youngwon was at first rude, and then edited her message. I was rude to AryanKnight because he is a wanna-be Nazi, and I'm an Israeli Jew. I responded to TogetherLemon in the exact way he replied to me. Same goes for huevix.

How did I reject your opinion, SolidH20's or slforce? the only normal comments on this thread.
You wrote something, and I responded to that. It seems to me that because I still keep having my opinions and not immediately accepting yours, you see this as attacking you.

[quote=Srurtuphr][/quote]
You didn't go to the detailed changes for both classes in chaos, that's prolly the reason that made you think Evan is SO overpowered. Yes, in chaos we get speed buff, yes our DPM is increased even our skills are nerfed. But AMs got buffed in chaos too, and if you insist, yes Evans may be a little stronger than AMs in terms of DPM after chaos. But every class is different, there s always one class stronger than the other in a certain way. But the stuff u said in your post [b]"where is the balance BETWEEN us mage classes? if Evans were slightly stronger, I wouldn't mind because, come on, it's impossible to completely balance it. But this much of a difference?","I don't want those same buffs, I just don't think it's right for 1 class to have 4-5 buffs, and the other to have twice as much, especially when all of those buffs, without exception, are individually better than the the first class's buffs."[/b] was really inappropriate and it really made u a little irrational and whinny especially when u were being so rude to most people who have opinions against yours. Go through the detailed information first then nicely discuss with others, not just directly reject others' opinions without knowing what's really going on in the first place.

[quote=Srurtuphr]The first chart is Big Bang, and not post chaos.
The second chart is from PVP, and not the Arans'/Evans' actual skills. All the skills of all characters are tweaked, with about 99% of them getting nerfed to make PVP fair play.
Obviously, it doesn't suddenly transform your skills into PVP skills for the rest of the game.

"You're either strong and slow, or fast and weak"
1. Again, Evans are getting a very big speed buff.
2. No. You are not either strong and slow or fast weak. NLs are not weak no slow, the same applies to mechs and other characters.

But if you wanna go down that road, just what are mages?
CL has a decent casting speed, not really that fast, and it's 1 hit.
So, fast we're not really- most characters can nonstop spam their attacks, while we're much slower. We're also not really strong. So just what are we without real funding? =)[/quote]

I believe that his quote was referring specifically for your thread's comparisons between evans and explorer mages. Adding in all other class is a whole different discussion that's all over each classes forum.

your words doesnt even make sense "I'm not usually the one who cares about damage of other characters, but the difference here seems to be ridiculous to me." its just a game dude why are u so into it about the job skill and buffs, not like u cant kill the mobs with your skills. u're just one eff noob. just play the eff game and enjoy.

@Srurtuphr: and your ignorance compliments my "beliefs". fail mage.

@AryanKnight your stupidity and immaturity stand in great contrast to your beliefs that you are superior to Jews, Blacks and other "non-Aryan" races. I would ask you again, to not talk to me in any of my threads, respond to any of my messages, or send me private messages.

@slforce059 I know it does. o.o I said it's Big Bang, and not post Chaos. At least it seems that way to me. No need to get stingy, I was just pointing out it's the wrong chart on the pvp one.

It seemed to me you were saying that basically in MS, your character is either slow and strong or fast and weak. That is all.

Saying "going down that road" does not mean taking sides, it's more like saying.. "Alright, while we're on that subject then", where did I say you took any sides?
The "road" you "took" was saying it's either slow and strong, or fast and weak, and I was saying how it's not really like that.

@Srurtuphr: and i would theoretically tell you that your a fail archmage.

[quote=youngwon]Edit: OT: Yes, Evans are stronger than I/L, and we do more damage.

My Evan can hit 700k with Blaze and it can hit 6 monster (800% damage on blaze)
While other I/L hit like 200k max (from what I've seen) so unless your chain lightning hits 4 times faster than Evans, it will be hard to balance it out.

At least you can say you're normal explorers?[/quote]

After I read the 200k max part, I knew this wasn't worth reading.
You're comparing a below average funded I/L to a decently funded Evan.

Nice comparison..

@Srurtuphr: it sound like whining to me... and i'm not playing for dmg, just for fun...

The only problem I have with I/L vs Evans is that a lot of LHC is fire weak and nothing is lightning weak.
I have both 120+ and my Evan doesn't really seem to outshine my I/L by a whole lot.

[quote=jojokins]Yes, this is true.
I don't understand why nexon does this .___.
Me and my friend trained once at lhc, i was 130 he was 127ish?*(he was an evan)
He was hitting 120k+ while i was doing 60~90k and I am more funded.
Yeah, his attacks are slower, but It would take him 20hits to kill, while I was doing 60+ hits.
I think, we should either make big bang have no charge, or make cl hit 3times or more, with a high dmg rate.
But whatever[/quote]

To be honest 120K actually seems weak compared to most Evans on LHC.
60~90K sounds about my funding, slightly less, and since my funding is only slightly above average I doubt you have godly funding either.
Making BB with no charge seems way too OP for me, just like ultimates with no CD, but I do agree on multi hit CL.

[quote=SolidH2O]I don't think you're even bothering to read the changes in chaos update as others have mentioned. I've read some of it and it is definitely a huge change to almost all the skills. Range changes/Damage %/Attack speed/# of Attacks/Mob vs target of the skills are all changed for the most part. Doesn't seem like you read up on the skills before making this and I don't want to go over all of it. Also of all the activate buffs I only use booster as everything has ridiculous cast time VS usefulness. Some of them are also not meant to be used when grinding. For example, 80% recovery requires being in a small area for 30seconds and absorbing 30% damage last 30seconds with a 1minute cool down + slow cast. You keep mentioning speed boost in chaos but damage is dropped to make about the same, not to mention everything is reworked (mentioned earlier).
Don't forget that Magic Guard, Magic Booster, and Crit cost a total of 6k NX. However we do get dragon equips, with full leveled reverse I hear you can get 20+ Luk and some Int. They can also be chaos scrolled but that isn't exactly the most unbalanced scrolling method.

On a side note: You're rude as hell to anybody who goes against you and I suggest actually playing an Evan before throwing out how uneven it is. You don't seem to want accept any differing opinions and quite frankly I don't want to go explain a [i]whole[/i] class to you. Especially when you have no experience with one and tell other [i]Evans[/i] they're wrong.[/quote]

Actually, comments like yours are what I was looking for, as I said in my original post that I don't really know what an Evan is like so I would welcome corrections.
I might have been rude, to people who were rude themselves to begin with, or who left dumb comments like "play an Evan" which means they really didn't read what I said.

i out dmg every evan ive met cept that one lvl 18x girl, i think her name was LoveXtasy lmao

[quote=huevix]you\'re comparing the actual dmg charts, Evans might have more dmg, but explorer mages attacking speed is WAY more faster than Evans... After chaos Evans will become faster attackers but we\'re getting nerfed in terms of dmg... stop whining, if you want to be a dmg whore but slow attacker make and evan and shut up...[/quote]

1. We don't attack THAT much faster.
2. The nerfs on your attacks don't seem that big to me.
3. If I'm playing an I/L, you really think I'm playing for damage?
4. I'm not whining.

Why is it that everytime people try to have a normal discussion, not a "WOW MECHS ARE SO OP I HATE THEM" style thread, idiots like you still come and say "STOP WHINING BLABLA"?

@above read my edit.

[quote=Srurtuphr]You didn't even bother reading, did you?
Don't write dumb replies without even reading. GG.
@Above same, learn to read. I said at least 3 times that I'm just relying on what I read and from what I see on the game, and that if anyone has any corrections I'll be happy to hear.
Also why would I play a char I don't wanna play with?

[/quote]

You know, you should really grow up. Just because we're offering your opinions, and just because you've stated some statistics about some skills, doesn't mean our opinion is invalid and therefore doesn't mean we are illiterate.

Yes, Evans ARE stronger, but if you don't care to play an Evan and are going to keep playing your I/L Archmage, why are you even complaining?

Just live with it, some numbers over a monster doesn't do jack.

By the way, Evans are probably still going to be stronger than you in Chaos.

http://www.basilmarket.com/forum/1960901/1/Chaos_Patch_skill_changes.html#

you\'re comparing the actual dmg charts, Evans might have more dmg, but explorer mages attacking speed is WAY more faster than Evans... After chaos Evans will become faster attackers but we\'re getting nerfed in terms of dmg... stop whining, if you want to be a dmg whore but slow attacker make and evan and shut up...

[quote=TogetherLemon]Evans take a lot longer to cast than I/L mages. Don't complain about them being unbalanced until u have played both classes. GG.[/quote]

You didn't even bother reading, did you?
Don't write dumb replies without even reading. GG.
@Above EDIT: Glad to see you changed your comment. =) yes, I saw a pretty godly funded I\L today, level 175, and he was hitting around 200Ks at bearwolves.

@Abysseon I see. Well, whatever the case, I'll just wait for the patch to come already. = )

Edit: OT: Yes, Evans are stronger than I/L, and we do more damage.

My Evan can hit 700k with Blaze and it can hit 6 monster (800% damage on blaze)
While other I/L hit like 200k max (from what I've seen) so unless your chain lightning hits 4 times faster than Evans, it will be hard to balance it out.

At least you can say you're normal explorers?

@SpillShotsAlso from what I know (like I've been saying, correct me if I'm wrong) you're MOSTLY getting attack skills buffs, not nerfs. 50% sucks losing, yes, but it's not that big of a difference.
Of course it all comes down to funding, but you'll agree that explorer mages need more funding to be on par with other classes. The same funding going to a mech or anything else would be a much stronger character than the mage.

And I know I didn't list the changes, I said so at the end. =)

@above Yes, before making this thread I thought about that. =)
But it'll be a long time before that revamp hits. Also, explorer mages? it's gonna be an overall revamp for all mages, isn't it? Explorers, BaMs, Evans?
In case anyone doesn't know what we're talking about, we're not talking about Chaos, but the revamps that follow after chaos.
I hope those revamps include new animations for Bliz and Elquines. >_>

[quote=DragonGaurd]Attack speed buff, Damage nerf. (50+% on most skills). Also, you forgot to mention MP eater for explorer mages and count the fact that aura is quite useless unless standing still. Don't think your so weak vs us, explorer mages.
COUGHIRFIT/ELQUINES=MAJORDPMBOOSTCOUGH[/quote]

You're right, I forgot about MP eater, I'll add that, thanks. =)
Also, what aura are you talking about? I listed the skills and I saw their effects, but like I said I don't really know the skills, so which buff are you referring to?

[quote=slforce059]Yes, and along with that, a nerf of skill attacks.
[url=http://www.s0uthperry.net/showthread.php?t=35267] Big Bang delay chart[/url]
[url=http://www.s0uthperry.net/showthread.php?t=36544] Aran/Evan skills[/url]

Now, these are from s0uthperry. Obviously switch the 0 with an o. The big bang delay chart is simplified, evan skills you'll need to look at each individual skill for delay. This should clear up your misconceptions about them being "overpowered." You're either strong and slow, or fast and weak.[/quote]

The first chart is Big Bang, and not post chaos.
The second chart is from PVP, and not the Arans'/Evans' actual skills. All the skills of all characters are tweaked, with about 99% of them getting nerfed to make PVP fair play.
Obviously, it doesn't suddenly transform your skills into PVP skills for the rest of the game.

"You're either strong and slow, or fast and weak"
1. Again, Evans are getting a very big speed buff.
2. No. You are not either strong and slow or fast weak. NLs are not weak no slow, the same applies to mechs and other characters.

But if you wanna go down that road, just what are mages?
CL has a decent casting speed, not really that fast, and it's 1 hit.
So, fast we're not really- most characters can nonstop spam their attacks, while we're much slower. We're also not really strong. So just what are we without real funding? =)

You completely ignored what I said right at the begining. You're getting a serious attack speed buff.
To my knowledge, with the exception of Illusion, most of your other attacks are also getting buffed.
Also, I'm afraid faster isn't always better, not when there's a huge difference in the damage. You also ignored all the passive and active buffs I listed. You're getting a LOT more buffs. I don't want those same buffs, I just don't think it's right for 1 class to have 4-5 buffs, and the other to have twice as much, especially when all of those buffs, without exception, are individually better than the the first class's buffs.

^ She took the words right out of my mouth. c:

We're a slower class that hits larger numbers.

Errr... you forgot one important thing, spell cast time for each skill (delay), take C/L as an example (main mob/1v1 skill for 4th job), delay for C/L is 780ms; Evan's blaze (main mob skill for 10th growth, can be used in 1v1 as well depends on personal dpm) on the other hand has a delay of 1320ms, you can see C/L is almost 2x faster than blaze. Yes illusion get 1480% in total, but still it has skill delay 2010ms, you can see how slow it is, you can do ~2.5 x C/L while we finish 1 illusion. Almost all evan skills are slow, much slower than other mages, we get high %dmg on skills yes, but in exchange we get slow speed.

@AryanKnight I would ask you to not reply to my threads or my messages. Thank you.

the balance is all about the elements.