General

[quote=cilverx4]-_-

Completely ruined my fun.[/quote]

Alright.

[quote=OnyxApple]I know judgment is faster, but if you were at LHC, do you think there is great potential behind tempest spam?
Also, since you can only raise 5 hyper skills in the skill buff category and there are 9 total, which would you raise?[/quote]

There is no easy answer.
Tempest is better when you can hit 15 mobs with it, when you can't hit more than 7 mobs with Judgment.
If you're at all funded, two tempests (assuming you buffed their number of hits) will wipe a map at LHC completely. I think that's better than spamming 3 Judgments to kill half a platform, to be honest.

As for which passive skill buff hyper skills to max...

A) [b]outclassed by F)[/b] Combo Recharge - Additional Combo: Combo Recharge's combo is doubled. [required level: 183]
B) [b]optional[/b] Combo Recharge - Cooltime Reduce: Combo Recharge's cooldown is decreased. [required level: 162]
C) [b]optional[/b] Combo Recharge - Release: When using Combo Recharge, remove the HP requirement. [required level: 143]
D) [b]recommended for anyone[/b] Combo Tempest - Bonus Attack: Combo Tempest's attack count is increased. [required level: 155]
E) [b]recommended if unfunded[/b] Combo Tempest - Linked Reinforce: Combo Judgement's damage is increased. [required level: 177]
F) [b]optional[/b] Combo Tempest - Release: Combo Tempest's required combo is halved. [required level: 195]
G) [b]recommended for anyone[/b] Final Blow - Bonus Attack: Final Blow's attack count is increased. [required level: 168]
H) [b]recommended if unfunded[/b] Final Blow - Ignore Guard: Passively increase the amount of monster's defense ignored by Final Blow. [required level: 183]
I) [b]recommended if unfunded[/b] Final Blow - Reinforce: Final Blow's damage is increased. [required level: 149]

As you can see, for unfunded players, there are 5 skills I recommend (D, E, G, H, I)
For funded players (who can hit cap with Judgment or FB already), they can get some optional skills instead of the 'recommended for unfunded' skills. I guess if you can hit cap with Judgment and with Final Blow, before hyper skills, I recommend: (B, C, D, F, G)

@phoenix23 normal attacks don't activate AFA

[quote=Kazzooey]Uggghhhhghghhh I don't even care anymore lol. Tired of this subject. And when you look at the big picture, switching to max Judgement instead of RS or vise versa really isn't a big time game-changer. What it comes down to is how you play and train. Do you LHC a lot or do you Azwan a lot? Judgement is fantastic in Azwan but sucks in Lhc. RS is a little handy in Lhc I guess, and it sucks in Azwan.

As for FT, I don't know and I don't care for that skill. I do not spam it because it is no fun to spam at all. OSFB is 100000x more entertaining than spamming that stupid skill. It may be the best skill from a technical standpoint but I play for fun so I don't bother with that skill.

Even if Beyonder activated AFA, which as far as I've [i]seen[/i] it doesn't, it still shouldn't be able to outdamage Judgement in terms of percentage per second. Judgement can only hit a maximum of 10 mobs and Tempest can hit 15, the total percentage of damage dished out from Judgement against 10 targets still outdamages Tempest against 15 targets. So once again it comes down to what situation you're in, but most of the time, Judgement wins in damage dealt out.

Only one thing I know for fact out of this whole debate is when using combo unlimited: Judgement > Beyonder > Tempest

With that, I'm done lol.[/quote]

For the most part, I agree with you, if we ignore the damage cap.

@cilverx4
"I figured it wouldnt hurt to go ahead and ask what that teal-colored line on your graph represents. Also, what the difference in values on the y-axis between the teal line and yellow line (as x approaches "infinity" ) represents. "

As per the legend on the graph, the teal line represents Overswing, 4-hit Final Blow, with the extra multiplier on hyper final blow, and all three hits of Beyond Blade, spammed as quickly as possible, with all relevant damage skills maxed (like AFA).

By yellow you mean RS.

The y-value difference between RS and OSFBB with maximum damage range, and damage caps where they stand now (at 3m for Beyond Blade hits, and 999,999 for RS, OSFB, and AFA hits) is 6.7 million damage per second.

@phoenix23 Meh. My opinion about FT.
FT is still very viable for "low level" 4th job.
The things that are "better" (ie do more dmg) are:
1. Judgment Spam: comes at 150, and is NOT a reliable form of DPS, as it only lasts 30 sec and a CD of 90 sec, and its potential is extremely low (even lower than FT's, which is scary, considering most Arans know how limited we are by the dmg cap by using FT.)
2. Beyonder Chain: comes at 170, which is relatively late. It's obviously the most boss thing Arans have ever got, though. Like, ever
3. Reg OSFB w/ hypers (FT is very slightly better, but its potential is higher): FBs dmg inc comes at 149- that increases the dmg by 20%, but not the potential. FBs hit count inc increases the dmg by 33.333...% and increasing the potential, so obviously this buff is the one that Aran's are waiting for... at 168. Which is, again, relatively late.

Uggghhhhghghhh I don't even care anymore lol. Tired of this subject. And when you look at the big picture, switching to max Judgement instead of RS or vise versa really isn't a big time game-changer. What it comes down to is how you play and train. Do you LHC a lot or do you Azwan a lot? Judgement is fantastic in Azwan but sucks in Lhc. RS is a little handy in Lhc I guess, and it sucks in Azwan.

As for FT, I don't know and I don't care for that skill. I do not spam it because it is no fun to spam at all. OSFB is 100000x more entertaining than spamming that stupid skill. It may be the best skill from a technical standpoint but I play for fun so I don't bother with that skill.

Even if Beyonder activated AFA, which as far as I've [i]seen[/i] it doesn't, it still shouldn't be able to outdamage Judgement in terms of percentage per second. Judgement can only hit a maximum of 10 mobs and Tempest can hit 15, the total percentage of damage dished out from Judgement against 10 targets still outdamages Tempest against 15 targets. So once again it comes down to what situation you're in, but most of the time, Judgement wins in damage dealt out.

Only one thing I know for fact out of this whole debate is when using combo unlimited: Judgement > Beyonder > Tempest

With that, I'm done lol.

@phoenix23

I figured it wouldnt hurt to go ahead and ask what that teal-colored line on your graph represents. Also, what the difference in values on the y-axis between the teal line and yellow line (as x approaches "infinity" ) represents.

Just out of sheer honest curiosity of course. I would hear your explanation.

@phoenix23: can you specify the ranges? (as in x-axis of the graph) or atleast the point where RS and OSFB (with hypers) intersect, and so on. (and ofc, other points where the graphs intersect)

Oh God, the comments... Walls, walls of text everywhere!
"Ain't no body got no time for that!"

Just noticed your edit, lol. Wish you'd PM'd me.

I didn't believe Judgment activates AFA either, but apparently it's written there in the files. I've still got to test it out, lol.

http://www.southperry.net/showthread.php?t=61414&title=GMS%20v123%20-%20Tempest Check here and you'll see that according to the same extraction files, Beyond Blade can proc final attack on all three attacks.

The question remains: Is Judgment worth maxing in 3rd job? Or can it be saved until later? What are the situations where you'll be training using Judgment spam at 150+?
Will you have Tempest maxed by then?

I can't deny that Judgment is useful in 3rd job. Before the most recent changes in jobs structure, Judgment only really lost its use after LHC, where the mob count was lower and monsters became HP sacks, and DPS matters much more than whether or not you 1shot each mob.

But we can't deny that Rolling Spin is useful in 3rd job as well. It takes less time to use 1 RS than it does to use 1 FS, and RS does more damage in that time. Unless you've got exceptionally terrible damage, you can use RS as your main training skill and 1shot everything, and in KS war situations (I'm thinking about Jesters and Aliens here), RS is a great tool to use alongside Smash and Fenrir, and even Judgment. But then, what skill can be left unmaxed in 3rd job?

If you don't get OSFBBB until 170+, can a cooldown skill really replace 4th job training?
In a glitch LHC map, Judgment can hit maybe 5-8 mobs at a time, while Tempest can hit 10-15 mobs at a time. Care we to do the math on that?

In light of your math confirming what my math and my graph shows, what alterations to the skill build do you suggest?

And I suppose an equally weighty question is: [b]Is FT worth it as a main attack skill from 100-140, still?[/b]

Yea I'll rework it with the exact times later. I'm a little bat crap tired of math right now. Just woke up and I wanna play my luminous lol. Also as a reminder I said I'm just going for the percentages, not accounting for damage cap. Yea I also figured Judgement had just over 1 second since I saw it got slightly more and more behind the timer but whatever, close enough. I also totally forgot about the Alliance skill, I have yet to get it on any of my Arans yet.

But I don't see your point on the critical rate issue. It does have a significant change in damage and would lower the value of FB and Beyonder's 100% Critical bonus to be worth much less. When doing damage rates off of skill percentages you should work with the base skills, the stuff that every Aran has and not with the luxury skills(Decent SE, Link skills, ect ect). The Alliance skill is not a luxury skill so I guess that should fit into it. But when you include the luxury skills, what do the unfunded or people without them say since that table is not accurate for them? I don't think it's very fair to just assume everyone has almost 100% critical rate, tons of link skills, decent skills and all kinds of crap that people don't always have. I mean it's common sense those luxury skills will make you stronger. How much stronger? Well I guess you can add another table on that. But that's the reason I put the base stats that an average leveled 4th job(170-180), unfunded Aran who has no out-side interferences on stats. And that also just wouldn't be fair to Final Blow and Beyonder since give you 100% critical on those skills. It's a very nice bonus bound to only those skills, I don't see why you should take that away from them (lol sounds like i'm treating them like people).

As for AFA, yea I didn't know which skills didn't work and had to go off of memory. But as for Beyonder, I have watched a lot of videos on it and rewound it and rewound it, I didn't see any AFA activation from it. But then again, it's a lot of big numbers and effects being thrown around so it's hard to see. I don't think it does since when AFA at max damage is just about increasing your overall potential and Beyonder adds so much to Aran's potential already but that's just using some logic and is unconfirmed.

And proof: Tempest sucks for raw damage. Useful at [i]times[/i], but still pretty bad.

[b]Edit[/b]
Okay just did the recalculations. Still assuming a 55% Critical Rate, same critical damage, and all that. But this time I changed the cast times to the exact numbers based off of what you say they are. And I'm NOT going to type out my damn math again lol. Just getting tired of this subject already so I'll just post the total damage and if you don't believe me you can do the math yourself.

Judgement: 3446% Per second
I lowered the damage by 8% to account for the .08 time over our one second common factor, and I put in the +208% for AFA.

Tempest: 1885% Per second
Changed from reducing damage by 50% originally to 44% to account for the extra .25 seconds in the cast time. I still don't believe it activates AFA so I left it out. Either way, it sucks.

OSFBB: 3098% (With AFA Activating on each Beyonder)
Changed from a 75% damage reduction from time to a 72% reduction to account for the real cast time. I also counted in AFA activating on Normal, Double Swing, Triple Swing, Final Blow, and all three Beyonders.

OSFBB: 2923% (No AFA activation on Beyonder)
Changed to the 72% reduction and only counted AFA activating on Normal, Double Swing, Triple Swing, and Final Blow attacks.

Even with the time changes, one again Judgement takes the cake. I do NOT believe Beyonder activates AFA. I've watched a bunch of videos of it in action and it does not seem to activate any AFA whatsoever so I'll compare the difference to that which I believe to be the correct activation set. Judgement is still stronger than OSFBB.
One last time, I am NOT counting in damage cap. I'm counting raw percentages and it has come out to Judgement as the highest damager yet again. So for someone who doesn't hit cap or when they raise the damage cap to 50m, Judgement outdamages Beyonder when Combo Unlimited is activated.

[quote=ramenrulz]Graphs are nice and all but I wish more people just posted the raw data.[/quote]

http://i.imgur.com/3Y6sY.png

Really nice contribution for aran comunity. But like some other poster said, it will be awesome if you can put ranges in the X axis (with the base boss and DEF ignore % from skills and maybe link skills) to compare some attacks.

[quote=Kazzooey]You are accounting for hitting the Damage Cap correct? If so then I will not argue with your chart but I would enjoy seeing how you did your math. Not doubting you, but I'm just curious to see what you included or possibly left out.[/quote]

A giant excel spreadsheet.
If you'd like an example of how one skill in particular was calculated I would be happy to provide the methodology.

[quote=Kazzooey]I also just posted this on another topic but I think it would be a good fit here. Plus it took me like an hour or two to type it all out lol. It kinda proves that percentage-wise, Judgement is the best. But it is hindered by the damage cap if you can reach it.[/quote]

That's exactly what the graph demonstrates, as you can see (:

[quote=Kazzooey]Also you should note that an Aran's base critical is 55% and I honestly don't think you should count in llink skills, decent skills, party member skills, or the level 198 10% critical hyper skill buff. You should work at base and provide numbers that everyone can achieve and not just those with the luxuries of link skills and decent skills or being level 200. I stopped my Hyper Skill bonuses after level 177. That sounds like an appropriate average level and it is the level of the highest hyper skill I included. But seeing as your chart is probably dealing with max damage I guess it could and should be used there.
Anyways, my percentage comparisons~~[/quote]

A few points.
1. I assure you that critical rate has very little effect on the key points in the chart.
2. If anything lower critical rate would disfavour skills that cap earlier and favour 100%crit skills. Thus a lower critical rate would disfavor Judgment's DPS in comparison with other skills, which I believe is the opposite of what you seek to prove.
3. At full combo, Arans base critical rate is NOT 55%. It is 60%. You forgot our beginner skill.
4. Between a link skill, half a dozen rings, character cards, inner abilities, decent skills, party skills, potentials, bonus potentials, and a hyper skill that all give crit rate, I am confident that those who would get the most use out of this chart have at least some of these "luxuries". It's more silly to think an average aran has 55% [60%] crit than to think an average aran has 90% crit, for real training situations .
But honestly, I can produce a 60% critical rate chart if you like, and the only change will be that Judgment Spam becomes TIED with OSFBBB until it caps off.

I find it odd you conclude Judgment spam to be better DPS with such a low critical rate. Onward!

[quote=Kazzooey]
Assume the normal 55% critical rate you have with 100 combos. Substitute an average Critical Damage. The base average critical damage for all classes is 35% damage on critical hits for all classes without Min/Max critical bonus. It should not matter what your Critical Damage is because this is constant for all skills and does not have any special bonus damage effects on a single skill.
To get the damage with a 55% critical rate, you multiply: 35 x .55 = 19.25. To make things simpler, round down to get a clean 19. So you get a 19% average Total Damage increase from a 55% critical rate. So now you have your Critical Damage multiplier. (1.19)[/quote]

Here's your first big error. Using this method to calculate effective critical rate does NOT work for any range that allows Judgment to cap on crits but not on non-crits.
Therein is the first source of your overestimation of Judgment spam DPS.

[quote=Kazzooey]Judgement will be our main skill to compare DPS on because it his about once per second and one second is our common factor in finding DPS. Keep in mind that I admit I do NOT have the exact full cast time for skills and these are close guesses after many hands-on and visual tests.[/quote]

Good guess. It's actually slightly more than one second. 1080 ms, or 1.08 seconds. I guess we've found a second source of error for your calculations.

[quote=Kazzooey]Also I do not include skills that increase total damage on all skills such as Ice Charge because it effects all skills and does not need to be included since it will not have any effect on the percentage difference between skills.[/quote]
Correct.

[quote=Kazzooey]Another thing to note, I did not include the +10% critical hyper stat buff you get at level 198 since that applies to only 198+ and I don't think it'll have any significant changes in difference between skills, but I could be wrong. I might try it out later to be sure.[/quote]

As discussed above re: crit rates, including it would slightly favour Judgment, but only at a certain range.

[quote=Kazzooey]
Final Attack is tricky. I'm not sure which skills activate it. But from what I've seen the Normal Attack, Beyonder, Judgement, Final Blow, and Tempest do not activate it. The only attacks that activate it are Double and Triple swing. Don't flame me if I'm wrong because I honestly am not sure. I'm just going to treat it as if only Double and Triple work with it. And since it's a bonus 250% at 70% chance, that is an average of +208% per attack including critical rates. I forgot to account for it in the previous Aran Tempest Build thread so I just updated it here in this one.[/quote]

A few small corrections here:
-AFA has a 60% proc rate, not 70%
-AFA works with normal attacks, RS, FT, FC, all 3 hits of OS, FB, and [all 3 hits of BB -- to be confirmed]. Apparently it works with Judgment too.

Also, not that we're dealing with such high ranges in this particular debate, but be careful when using that method to calculate effective AFA damage. This calculation does not work for Arans who hit cap with AFA crits but don't with AFA non-crits. Just to keep in mind for any future calculations you make.

[quote=Kazzooey]
Judgement:
550% x 3 hits (hits once per second)
200% Damage over Time (per second)
+70% total damage from Tempest bonus (does not apply to Damage over Time)
[i]Verbal[/i]: Skill % x Tempest Total Damage Bonus x 55% Critical Total Damage x Number of hits + Damage over Time = Damage Per Second
[i]Algebraic[/i]: 550 x 1.7 x 1.19 x 3 + 200 = [b]3537.95[/b]
Damage Per Second: [b]3537.95%[/b][/quote]
Ignoring the problems I've already outlined, this part of your math works fine by itself.

[quote=Kazzooey]
Tempest:
720% x 5 hits (hits once per two seconds)
[i]Verbal[/i]: Skill % x 55% Critical Total Damage x Number of hits / 2 To get the common factor of one second = Damage Per Second
[i]Algebraic[/i]: 720 x 1.19 x 5 / 2 = [b]2142[/b]
Damage Per Second: [b]2142%[/b][/quote]
Your logic is correct here too, but tempest actually hits every 2.25 seconds. You've overestimated tempest's DPS here.

[quote=Kazzooey]
OSFBB:
4 Second total cast time
100% Normal Attack
400% x 2 Double Swing (208% AFA bonus)
490% x 2 Triple Swing (208% AFA bonus)
350% x 4 Final Blow
+20% Total Damage on Final Blow
+20% Defense Ignore on Final Blow
420% x 3 (100% critical) Beyonder 1
420% x 3 (100% critical) Beyonder 2
420% x 3 (100% critical) Beyonder 3
+20% Defense Ignore Beyonder 1,2, and 3
[i]Verbal[/i]: {Normal Attack + (Double Swing % x Number of hits + AFA) + (Triple Swing % x Number of hits + AFA) x 55% Critical Total Damage} + (Final Blow % x 20% Final Blow Hyper Bonus x 100% Critical Damage Bonus x Number of hits) + ([Beyonder % x 100% Critical Damage Bonus x Number of hits] x Number of Beyonders) / 4 To get the common factor of one second = Damage Per Second
[i]Algebraic[/i]: {100 + (400 x 2 + 208) + (490 x 2 + 208) x 1.19} + (350 x 1.2 x 1.35 x 4) + ([420 x 1.35 x 3] x 3) / 4 = [b]2525.81[/b]
Damage Per Second: [b]2525.81%[/b] + Defense Ignore[/quote]

Sorry to sound so critical, but I have to point out a couple more problems here.
1. OSFBBB total cast time is 3.51 seconds, not 4 seconds.
2. AFA works with normal attacks and [I believe] it will work with BB attacks. And it will work with Judgment, as well, though at 1 opportunity to proc per second (as opposed to OSFBBB's 2 opportunities to proc per second), roughly, this error incorrectly favours Judgment.

I suppose these are the 3rd and 4th sources of error in your estimations.

[quote=Kazzooey]So as you can see #1 goes to Judgement, #2 to OSFBB, and #3 to Tempest. Of course each has it's on area of effect; Tempest is an ultimate and can cover a large range, OSFBB is used whenever you want and hits a big area in front of you, and Judgement hits in front and behind you with a vertically low hit box.
I stated it earlier that I do NOT have the exact cast times and this is all approximation I did on my own tests and the results aren't 100% accurate due to that, but they are close.[/quote]

Indeed you were very close. You overestimated Judgment in many cases, and underestimated OSFBBB in others.

[quote=Kazzooey]Anyways, Judgement spam is about 29% stronger than OSFBB spam and 40% stronger than Tempest spam. I tried accounting for everything I could and removed things that would not make a difference to eliminate extra unneeded math just to get the same exact result. And the only thing I could think of that might slightly change the differences is the +10% critical rate you get at level 198 from the Stat Buffing Hyper skill but since it is only available to the highest of levels I didn't feel it should be included. I would include Final Toss but I am not an expert on that skill, and do not enjoy spamming in in game nor did the thread starter ask about Final Toss.

Let me know if I left something out that is relevant or had something wrong.[/quote]

I'm really happy you were so willing to show us your math and your logic was very easy to follow.
I hope you get the chance to revise your work, and feel free to PM me if you need any raw data, like attack delays in milliseconds.

Thank you.

-

-

[quote=darkrayz442]@Kazzooey: http://www.southperry.net/forumdisplay.php?f=18&prefixid=KMST
Scroll down to KMST 1.2.435 - [Luminous] Legend Skill Tables
Can't put the actual link for some reason.[/quote]
This link would be better, no? It's for GMS instead of KMST.
http://www.southperry.net/showthread.php?t=51793&title=%5BJustice%5D%20Legend

@Kazzooey: http://www.southperry.net/forumdisplay.php?f=18&prefixid=KMST
Scroll down to KMST 1.2.435 - [Luminous] Legend Skill Tables
Can't put the actual link for some reason.

[quote=darkrayz442]Judgement and Final Blow triggers AFA.[/quote]

Oh? I haven't been able to log on my aran or check that because of this god awful lag since Tempest. I hit a monster and my screen freezes for a second. Plus some other people told me Judgement doesn't activate AFA. I'll update it later I guess. I'm too tired right now and I got a headache lol.

[quote=Kazzooey]You are accounting for hitting the Damage Cap correct? If so then I will not argue with your chart but I would enjoy seeing how you did your math. Not doubting you, but I'm just curious to see what you included or possibly left out.

I also just posted this on another topic but I think it would be a good fit here. Plus it took me like an hour or two to type it all out lol. It kinda proves that percentage-wise, Judgement is the best. But it is hindered by the damage cap if you can reach it.
Also you should note that an Aran's base critical is 55% and I honestly don't think you should count in llink skills, decent skills, party member skills, or the level 198 10% critical hyper skill buff. You should work at base and provide numbers that everyone can achieve and not just those with the luxuries of link skills and decent skills or being level 200. I stopped my Hyper Skill bonuses after level 177. That sounds like an appropriate average level and it is the level of the highest hyper skill I included. But seeing as your chart is probably dealing with max damage I guess it could and should be used there.
Anyways, my percentage comparisons~~

Assume the normal 55% critical rate you have with 100 combos. Substitute an average Critical Damage. The base average critical damage for all classes is 35% damage on critical hits for all classes without Min/Max critical bonus. It should not matter what your Critical Damage is because this is constant for all skills and does not have any special bonus damage effects on a single skill.
To get the damage with a 55% critical rate, you multiply: 35 x .55 = 19.25. To make things simpler, round down to get a clean 19. So you get a 19% average Total Damage increase from a 55% critical rate. So now you have your Critical Damage multiplier. (1.19)
Judgement will be our main skill to compare DPS on because it his about once per second and one second is our common factor in finding DPS. Keep in mind that I admit I do NOT have the exact full cast time for skills and these are close guesses after many hands-on and visual tests.
Also I do not include skills that increase total damage on all skills such as Ice Charge because it effects all skills and does not need to be included since it will not have any effect on the percentage difference between skills.
Another thing to note, I did not include the +10% critical hyper stat buff you get at level 198 since that applies to only 198+ and I don't think it'll have any significant changes in difference between skills, but I could be wrong. I might try it out later to be sure.
Final Attack is tricky. I'm not sure which skills activate it. But from what I've seen the Normal Attack, Beyonder, Judgement, Final Blow, and Tempest do not activate it. The only attacks that activate it are Double and Triple swing. Don't flame me if I'm wrong because I honestly am not sure. I'm just going to treat it as if only Double and Triple work with it. And since it's a bonus 250% at 70% chance, that is an average of +208% per attack including critical rates. I forgot to account for it in the previous Aran Tempest Build thread so I just updated it here in this one.

Judgement:
550% x 3 hits (hits once per second)
200% Damage over Time (per second)
+70% total damage from Tempest bonus (does not apply to Damage over Time)
[i]Verbal[/i]: Skill % x Tempest Total Damage Bonus x 55% Critical Total Damage x Number of hits + Damage over Time = Damage Per Second
[i]Algebraic[/i]: 550 x 1.7 x 1.19 x 3 + 200 = [b]3537.95[/b]
Damage Per Second: [b]3537.95%[/b]

Tempest:
720% x 5 hits (hits once per two seconds)
[i]Verbal[/i]: Skill % x 55% Critical Total Damage x Number of hits / 2 To get the common factor of one second = Damage Per Second
[i]Algebraic[/i]: 720 x 1.19 x 5 / 2 = [b]2142[/b]
Damage Per Second: [b]2142%[/b]

OSFBB:
4 Second total cast time
100% Normal Attack
400% x 2 Double Swing (208% AFA bonus)
490% x 2 Triple Swing (208% AFA bonus)
350% x 4 Final Blow
+20% Total Damage on Final Blow
+20% Defense Ignore on Final Blow
420% x 3 (100% critical) Beyonder 1
420% x 3 (100% critical) Beyonder 2
420% x 3 (100% critical) Beyonder 3
+20% Defense Ignore Beyonder 1,2, and 3
[i]Verbal[/i]: {Normal Attack + (Double Swing % x Number of hits + AFA) + (Triple Swing % x Number of hits + AFA) x 55% Critical Total Damage} + (Final Blow % x 20% Final Blow Hyper Bonus x 100% Critical Damage Bonus x Number of hits) + ([Beyonder % x 100% Critical Damage Bonus x Number of hits] x Number of Beyonders) / 4 To get the common factor of one second = Damage Per Second
[i]Algebraic[/i]: {100 + (400 x 2 + 208) + (490 x 2 + 208) x 1.19} + (350 x 1.2 x 1.35 x 4) + ([420 x 1.35 x 3] x 3) / 4 = [b]2525.81[/b]
Damage Per Second: [b]2525.81%[/b] + Defense Ignore

So as you can see #1 goes to Judgement, #2 to OSFBB, and #3 to Tempest. Of course each has it's on area of effect; Tempest is an ultimate and can cover a large range, OSFBB is used whenever you want and hits a big area in front of you, and Judgement hits in front and behind you with a vertically low hit box.
I stated it earlier that I do NOT have the exact cast times and this is all approximation I did on my own tests and the results aren't 100% accurate due to that, but they are close.

Anyways, Judgement spam is about 29% stronger than OSFBB spam and 40% stronger than Tempest spam. I tried accounting for everything I could and removed things that would not make a difference to eliminate extra unneeded math just to get the same exact result. And the only thing I could think of that might slightly change the differences is the +10% critical rate you get at level 198 from the Stat Buffing Hyper skill but since it is only available to the highest of levels I didn't feel it should be included. I would include Final Toss but I am not an expert on that skill, and do not enjoy spamming in in game nor did the thread starter ask about Final Toss.

Let me know if I left something out that is relevant or had something wrong.[/quote]

Judgement and Final Blow triggers AFA.

Oh my god.
LF> RS.

You are accounting for hitting the Damage Cap correct? If so then I will not argue with your chart but I would enjoy seeing how you did your math. Not doubting you, but I'm just curious to see what you included or possibly left out.

I also just posted this on another topic but I think it would be a good fit here. Plus it took me like an hour or two to type it all out lol. It kinda proves that percentage-wise, Judgement is the best. But it is hindered by the damage cap if you can reach it.
Also you should note that an Aran's base critical is 55% and I honestly don't think you should count in llink skills, decent skills, party member skills, or the level 198 10% critical hyper skill buff. You should work at base and provide numbers that everyone can achieve and not just those with the luxuries of link skills and decent skills or being level 200. I stopped my Hyper Skill bonuses after level 177. That sounds like an appropriate average level and it is the level of the highest hyper skill I included. But seeing as your chart is probably dealing with max damage I guess it could and should be used there.
Anyways, my percentage comparisons~~

Assume the normal 55% critical rate you have with 100 combos. Substitute an average Critical Damage. The base average critical damage for all classes is 35% damage on critical hits for all classes without Min/Max critical bonus. It should not matter what your Critical Damage is because this is constant for all skills and does not have any special bonus damage effects on a single skill.
To get the damage with a 55% critical rate, you multiply: 35 x .55 = 19.25. To make things simpler, round down to get a clean 19. So you get a 19% average Total Damage increase from a 55% critical rate. So now you have your Critical Damage multiplier. (1.19)
Judgement will be our main skill to compare DPS on because it his about once per second and one second is our common factor in finding DPS. Keep in mind that I admit I do NOT have the exact full cast time for skills and these are close guesses after many hands-on and visual tests.
Also I do not include skills that increase total damage on all skills such as Ice Charge because it effects all skills and does not need to be included since it will not have any effect on the percentage difference between skills.
Another thing to note, I did not include the +10% critical hyper stat buff you get at level 198 since that applies to only 198+ and I don't think it'll have any significant changes in difference between skills, but I could be wrong. I might try it out later to be sure.
Final Attack is tricky. I'm not sure which skills activate it. But from what I've seen the Normal Attack, Beyonder, Judgement, Final Blow, and Tempest do not activate it. The only attacks that activate it are Double and Triple swing. Don't flame me if I'm wrong because I honestly am not sure. I'm just going to treat it as if only Double and Triple work with it. And since it's a bonus 250% at 70% chance, that is an average of +208% per attack including critical rates. I forgot to account for it in the previous Aran Tempest Build thread so I just updated it here in this one.

Judgement:
550% x 3 hits (hits once per second)
200% Damage over Time (per second)
+70% total damage from Tempest bonus (does not apply to Damage over Time)
[i]Verbal[/i]: Skill % x Tempest Total Damage Bonus x 55% Critical Total Damage x Number of hits + Damage over Time = Damage Per Second
[i]Algebraic[/i]: 550 x 1.7 x 1.19 x 3 + 200 = [b]3537.95[/b]
Damage Per Second: [b]3537.95%[/b]

Tempest:
720% x 5 hits (hits once per two seconds)
[i]Verbal[/i]: Skill % x 55% Critical Total Damage x Number of hits / 2 To get the common factor of one second = Damage Per Second
[i]Algebraic[/i]: 720 x 1.19 x 5 / 2 = [b]2142[/b]
Damage Per Second: [b]2142%[/b]

OSFBB:
4 Second total cast time
100% Normal Attack
400% x 2 Double Swing (208% AFA bonus)
490% x 2 Triple Swing (208% AFA bonus)
350% x 4 Final Blow
+20% Total Damage on Final Blow
+20% Defense Ignore on Final Blow
420% x 3 (100% critical) Beyonder 1
420% x 3 (100% critical) Beyonder 2
420% x 3 (100% critical) Beyonder 3
+20% Defense Ignore Beyonder 1,2, and 3
[i]Verbal[/i]: {Normal Attack + (Double Swing % x Number of hits + AFA) + (Triple Swing % x Number of hits + AFA) x 55% Critical Total Damage} + (Final Blow % x 20% Final Blow Hyper Bonus x 100% Critical Damage Bonus x Number of hits) + ([Beyonder % x 100% Critical Damage Bonus x Number of hits] x Number of Beyonders) / 4 To get the common factor of one second = Damage Per Second
[i]Algebraic[/i]: {100 + (400 x 2 + 208) + (490 x 2 + 208) x 1.19} + (350 x 1.2 x 1.35 x 4) + ([420 x 1.35 x 3] x 3) / 4 = [b]2525.81[/b]
Damage Per Second: [b]2525.81%[/b] + Defense Ignore

So as you can see #1 goes to Judgement, #2 to OSFBB, and #3 to Tempest. Of course each has it's on area of effect; Tempest is an ultimate and can cover a large range, OSFBB is used whenever you want and hits a big area in front of you, and Judgement hits in front and behind you with a vertically low hit box.
I stated it earlier that I do NOT have the exact cast times and this is all approximation I did on my own tests and the results aren't 100% accurate due to that, but they are close.

Anyways, Judgement spam is about 29% stronger than OSFBB spam and 40% stronger than Tempest spam. I tried accounting for everything I could and removed things that would not make a difference to eliminate extra unneeded math just to get the same exact result. And the only thing I could think of that might slightly change the differences is the +10% critical rate you get at level 198 from the Stat Buffing Hyper skill but since it is only available to the highest of levels I didn't feel it should be included. I would include Final Toss but I am not an expert on that skill, and do not enjoy spamming in in game nor did the thread starter ask about Final Toss.

Let me know if I left something out that is relevant or had something wrong.

[quote=VileLunatic]Why was Tempest spam left out but Judgement left in? Is it hard to calculate or is the Tempest spam DPS that insignificant? I would think Tempest spam > Judgement spam since but that's just a guess....[/quote]

Sorry, Tempest spam is too slow. 3000ms delay means it's [roughly] twice as slow as Judgment. Even if tempest hits 5x790%, it doesn't surpass Judgment's 3x935% (after the 1.7 multiplier) at [roughly] twice the speed, plus DoT.

It's great at 1v15. I plan to use it at glitched LHC or HoH and see how effective it is.

[quote=PremiumNoir]Because whether we like it or not, people will [b]always[/b] compare classes to another.[/quote]

Then at least I've done my job, and at least the numbers are accurate. If someone wants to take them out of their theoretical context, then I can't really stop that, tragic as it may be. I firmly believe the benefits I outlined in my previous reply outweigh the risks of the graph being misused or misinterpreted. The moment this is not the case, then I have failed, and will stop publishing/updating them.

[quote=Camdon]Id throw some numbers on your X Axis brah. Convergence points and what not. If you can graph out where they overcome each other, you can sure as hell back calculate the point where they're equal.[/quote]

I'd love to put a Damage Range along the X axis. However, due to the huge variability of %Boss, %PDR, %Damage, I fear it would be very misleading for those who use the chart.

As I've done in the past, I can happily label the X values where each skill caps. It will be tricky; I don't want to add clutter. Perhaps a few of the main ones?
Is this what you mean by 'convergence point'?

Id throw some numbers on your X Axis brah. Convergence points and what not. If you can graph out where they overcome each other, you can sure as hell back calculate the point where they're equal.

[quote=PremiumNoir]Its great that you people (and TS) create all these DPS/DPM charts, comparing to others, making it better, and whatnot. But I'm just wondering, is Maple that much of a serious game that you need to calculate how much you will do over time? If you really think about it, these charts are only based off if these characters were played by robots or by automated systems; there are too many other alternative factors that make these graphs less accurate. For example, yes, if everyone was in a stand still position with an unlimited attack hack on, with 100% stance and millisecond precise buffing, with a complete lagless environment, these graphs would be great and awesome. However, only in very rare scenarios will this ever happen. You will almost always be moving, buffs will almost always be rebuffed before they run out, there will be lag (even just a millisecond), etc. These all contribute to "inaccuracy" of these DPS/DPM charts.

So my question is, with all these factors that can make these graphs inaccurate, doesn't this make the people who read this think like their class is better/worse than others if you compare it in DPS/DPM charts?

Please [b]do not[/b] take this personally OP, I think it's great that you're contributing to the Maple community, it is just a thought that stumbled upon me.[/quote]

This is a tool and a resource for Arans. It's not for comparing DPS between other classes.

Unlike Beginners such as yourself, (or many of your other classes), Arans have gone through a lot of changes in the last few years. There's tons of outdated guides and outdated data. Worse, there are lots of veteran Arans who learned how to do things one way and are very close-minded about how their class should be played. We have about 4 different attacking skills, each with their own advantages and ideal settings. We're about to get even more.

It [b]is[/b] theoretical and academic, and the reason I created it is because it simultaneously:
1. answers many short, meaningless questions that we get a lot (i.e. 'what is better DPS, OSFBBB or RS?'), and
2. provides an excellent STARTING POINT for deeper discussion (i.e. 'what are the advantages to maxing skill A earlier than skill B, given that you'll be training at X location?')

Both of these functions serve to help my fellow Arans in several capacities, and it does so in a way that is visually memorable and easy to grasp. A picture is worth a thousand words, or so they say.

(Also, I enjoy the process, I've always liked math. A bit of mental stimulation keeps Maplestory fun for me, as a time-killer.)

Thanks for your very valid point, though.
I hope I answered your question.

So FT>RS?

Edit: Nvm I read the graph wrong, I was looking at judgement thinking it was FT

This is looking niceeeee. Woot. Though since my dmg is so low, i feel like it wouldn't matter much haha.