basilmarket

BobR

[quote=gath]However, as we're discussing the election, one thing interests me. Is there any comprehensive list of Obama's (and Romney's, either set in stone or proposed) administration, who will be a part of it, and what their credentials are? I think that the American people could use a reminder that they aren't just voting for one or two people here.[/quote]
That's another whole can of worms.

As that video that was posted in this thread later on indicated, Obama has been cozying up to the "Washington insiders" he said he would keep out of his administration, including (of course) the current Wall Street insiders that are already in.

And meanwhile, Romney has hired most of the Bush era Neo-Cons who pushed for the last two rounds of wars, and who are saber-rattling for war with Iran.

I haven't seen any comprehensive lists of the projected appointments on both sides, just bits and pieces of it so far.

My feeling is that it's unfortunate the "founding fathers" didn't write a "Reset Button" into the Constitution where the People could call a popular referendum on the entire government and vote EVERYONE out of office when it becomes too dysfunctional and start over (with the provision that no one currently in office could ever run for office again). I think if they knew they had to perform or be "fired", they'd do a far better job than they now do, when "fired" only means having to fund-raise more than your opponent back home.

Reply August 18, 2012 - edited

gath

[quote=BobR]As I've said before (when you've admitted to being uninformed about the things you were arguing about), [/quote]

I never said I wasn't informed about what I was arguing about. In fact, I said I wasn't going to argue about something specifically because I don't feel well enough informed. So you basically took the opposite of what I said. Nice job.

[quote=BobR]I'm not about to do your reading and research for you.[/quote]

I didn't ask you to. I did ask you to provide proof. They are entirely different things. If someone doesn't agree with you because they haven't seen the same evidence as you, you don't call them ignorant. You show them the evidence.

[quote=BobR]If you don't pay attention, that's fine, but hearing an ad that FALSELY quotes the President as saying something the tape was EDITED to make him say, and not having heard the actual speech from the President so you can make your own decision about the "candidate" who would "approve this message" containing the EDITED LIE, means you haven't done your research.[/quote]

I'm terribly sorry that I haven't watched every speech that both candidates have ever made. I will aspire to be a better citizen, and to 'do my research' in the future.

[quote=BobR]One exception: "The Mendacity of Mitt, Vol. 30" http://maddowblog.msnbc.com/_news/2012/08/17/13338337-chronicling-mitts-mendacity-vol-xxx[/quote]

Wait, it's on MSNBC? What kind of biased sources do you use? I'm not even going to look at that!

...kidding.

That's actually quite a comprehensive list. If you're looking for proof of Romney lying, that should be the first stop. I would definitely recommend it over the video, which was...poorly executed, to say the least.

[quote=BobR]I invite you to find a similar, complementary compilation on the other side. I'd be interested to take a look at that.[/quote]

Of Course! [url=http://www.politifact.com/personalities/barack-obama/]This one[/url] grades statements made by him, so it acknowledges that some are true. He does score better than [url=http://www.politifact.com/personalities/mitt-romney]Mitt Romney,[/url] so he gets props for that.

However, as we're discussing the election, one thing interests me. Is there any comprehensive list of Obama's (and Romney's, either set in stone or proposed) administration, who will be a part of it, and what their credentials are? I think that the American people could use a reminder that they aren't just voting for one or two people here.

Reply August 18, 2012 - edited

BobR

[quote=gath]As I said before, I will be happy to look at anything you have to show me.[/quote]
As I've said before (when you've admitted to being uninformed about the things you were arguing about), I'm not about to do your reading and research for you.
If you don't pay attention, that's fine, but hearing an ad that FALSELY quotes the President as saying something the tape was EDITED to make him say, and not having heard the actual speech from the President so you can make your own decision about the "candidate" who would "approve this message" containing the EDITED LIE, means you haven't done your research.

One exception: "The Mendacity of Mitt, Vol. 30" http://maddowblog.msnbc.com/_news/2012/08/17/13338337-chronicling-mitts-mendacity-vol-xxx
The items are attributed with links to the referenced articles, with charts and graphs showing the things Romney has been lying about this week.
You can easily look up the other 29 weekly compilations of lies by searching the site.
The doctored tapes of the President's remarks are undoubtedly included on those lists.

I invite you to find a similar, complementary compilation on the other side. I'd be interested to take a look at that.

Reply August 18, 2012 - edited

gath

[quote=BobR]You did however bring up quoting out of context, which is what the Romney campaign is using to blatantly LIE about the President.[/quote]

Again, that was never my point. The video the OP posted does not convict Romney of lying.

[quote=BobR]If you're not aware of these ads, it must mean you're not in the vicinity of a television very often and haven't been paying attention. Again.[/quote]

Hey, cool it with the personal attacks. Of course I've seen ads of Romney, but they don't exactly come out and say 'hey guys, we're totally lying in this ad!' And the fact that people like me can watch these ads without knowing that they're false, is, unfortunately, exactly why people use them.

[quote=BobR]Again, you're using your ignorance of the actual video clips as a defense for the subject of the clips.
THIS video only shows portions of the recordings. The full recordings still support the fact that Romney has changed position on practically EVERYTHING he has ever said in public life.[/quote]

Poor argument there. If the full videos were conclusive, why weren't they provided in the twenty minute video?

The TS offered me 'proof' that Romney is a liar, I refuted it, and now I'm ignorant because I haven't seen more proof? If you would be so kind, [b]show me the proof![/b] I prefer not to wallow in my ignorance.

[quote=BobR]Yes you can change your position, but on EVERYTHING..? And just when it's convenient for the constituency you're playing to..?
The man is an abject opportunist, with NO positions on ANYTHING. THAT'S the point of the TS argument.[/quote]

He hardly as no positions on anything. I mean, if he was such an opportunist, [url=http://www.electionprojection.com/2012elections/president12.php] why run for office when the projections are so against him?[/url] Heck, why not change parties if you change your views, a la [url=http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/28/specter-will-run-as-a-democrat-in-2010/]Arlen Specter?[/url]

Here's [url=http://www.mittromney.com/issues]Romney's issues page[/url] on his site. If you can prove that he has changed his opinion on EVERY SINGLE ONE...

...then I will be impressed.

[quote=BobR]As the title of the thread says, the man is untrustworthy.[/quote]

That's a personal opinion more than anything else. Is he a liar? The video fails to prove that conclusively.

[quote=BobR]Incidentally, I'd send you links to many, many lists of "The Mendacity of Mitt" detailing his weekly lies, but since it's from an MSNBC source you'd likely never even look at them, so nevermind...[/quote]

As I mentioned before, please cool it with the personal attacks! We're two people discussing politics on a forum, not presidential candidates!

As I said before, I will be happy to look at anything you have to show me.

Reply August 18, 2012 - edited

BobR

[quote=gath]It seems we're getting a bit off topic. I never mentioned anything about other campaign ads[/quote]
You did however bring up quoting out of context, which is what the Romney campaign is using to blatantly LIE about the President.
If you're not aware of these ads, it must mean you're not in the vicinity of a television very often and haven't been paying attention. Again.

[quote=gath]Besides, as I went through quite thoroughly, very few instances show him actually changing his viewpoint at all.[/quote]
Again, you're using your ignorance of the actual video clips as a defense for the subject of the clips.
THIS video only shows portions of the recordings. The full recordings still support the fact that Romney has changed position on practically EVERYTHING he has ever said in public life. Yes you can change your position, but on EVERYTHING..? And just when it's convenient for the constituency you're playing to..?
The man is an abject opportunist, with NO positions on ANYTHING. THAT'S the point of the TS argument.
As the title of the thread says, the man is untrustworthy.

Incidentally, I'd send you links to many, many lists of "The Mendacity of Mitt" detailing his weekly lies, but since it's from an MSNBC source you'd likely never even look at them, so nevermind...

Reply August 17, 2012 - edited

gath

[quote=BobR]
your above statement DOES however illustrate the LIAR that Mitt Romney is.
[/quote]

How so? Also, I wouldn't call changing your mind once in twenty years a big deal. Are politicians never allowed to change their viewpoints?

[quote=BobR]His very FIRST campaign ad quoted the President OUT OF CONTEXT by EDITING the video tape.
It caused a very large stir among both the media and even some of his supporters.
Confronted with the stark reality of LYING about what the President said by EDITING his words, Romney laughed it off, saying "what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander". Thus ADMITTING he was LYING, but assuming everyone does it and would do it, so he was going to do it too.
His campaign has NEVER pulled the ad with the admitted LIE and is still running it.

Not satisfied with one lie, the Romney campaign doubled down with ANOTHER LIE, again EDITING what the President said about Small Business.
This ad caused another uproar in the media and again among his own supporters, but again his campaign has refused to pull the ad, and pounded the LIE heavily for weeks. Not a "PAC" ad, these were ROMNEY campaign ads. LYING by EDITING the words of his adversary.[/quote]

It seems we're getting a bit off topic. I never mentioned anything about other campaign ads, frankly, I don't have the background needed to discuss them right now. (I'd have to see them, for one.) My entire point was that the video posted by the TS fails to prove Romney a liar. If you want to claim that he's a liar because of other reasons, be my guest. I don't want to get drawn into a long debate that completely misses the point of the thread, so, in this thread, I am dealing with this video only. Feel free to make another thread though.

[quote=BobR]By contrast I saw nothing in the video the TS posted that was similarly DOCTORED. The full videos that the segments were compiled from are readily available and have been broadcast many times on television in recent months, illustrating the way Romney changes his position like the wind whenever it's convenient for whatever office he's running for or whatever constituency he wants to placate. He'll say ANYTHING to get himself elected and has done so many times.[/quote]

Many of the clips were taken out of the context the were originally meant for in order to misrepresent Romney. For example, he says that he doesn't want to suggest who should go to prison while talking about Goldman Sachs. This is taken out of context in order to imply that he doesn't want to suggest who should go to prison in general, and then spliced next to a clip of him demanding harsh mandatory penalties for gun crimes. THAT is taking things out of context.

Besides, as I went through quite thoroughly, very few instances show him actually changing his viewpoint at all.

[quote=BobR]@FightTheWar Lol.. and like Mitt Romney has said MANY times in recent months, "It's all within the letter of the law".
You notice Mz. Fullsome never said the Obama administration did anything illegal.[/quote]

You're straw-manning him here. FightTheWar never claimed that the Obama administration did anything illegal, merely that they went back on their claims. (As the video in the OP claims Romney does.)

Reply August 17, 2012 - edited

TheATMchoker

i only need to take a glance at his eyes and clearly tell he's not very honest.

Reply August 17, 2012 - edited

BobR

[quote=gath]Actually, yes. It's a well-documented fallacy, called [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_quoting_out_of_context]Quoting out of context.[/url]

You can't make somebody say something they didn't say with real video. But you [b]can[/b] misrepresent their intended point by taking it out of context. That's what this video does. Thus...deceiving. [/quote]
Lolol.... again.

None of the clips quoted Romney "out of context". They were his statements on various of his policies, very self evident where he stood, caught on tape.
And while changing positions like a "well oiled weathervane" doesn't necessarily make someone a liar, ( it's much more closely allied to the title of this thread - Untrustworthy) your above statement DOES however illustrate the LIAR that Mitt Romney is.

His very FIRST campaign ad quoted the President OUT OF CONTEXT by EDITING the video tape.
It caused a very large stir among both the media and even some of his supporters.
Confronted with the stark reality of LYING about what the President said by EDITING his words, Romney laughed it off, saying "what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander". Thus ADMITTING he was LYING, but assuming everyone does it and would do it, so he was going to do it too.
His campaign has NEVER pulled the ad with the admitted LIE and is still running it.

Not satisfied with one lie, the Romney campaign doubled down with ANOTHER LIE, again EDITING what the President said about Small Business.
This ad caused another uproar in the media and again among his own supporters, but again his campaign has refused to pull the ad, and pounded the LIE heavily for weeks. Not a "PAC" ad, these were ROMNEY campaign ads. LYING by EDITING the words of his adversary.

By contrast I saw nothing in the video the TS posted that was similarly DOCTORED. The full videos that the segments were compiled from are readily available and have been broadcast many times on television in recent months, illustrating the way Romney changes his position like the wind whenever it's convenient for whatever office he's running for or whatever constituency he wants to placate. He'll say ANYTHING to get himself elected and has done so many times.

It's so blatant that he's becoming almost a "political meme". "Will the Real Mitt Romney Please Stand Up..?"

@FightTheWar Lol.. and like Mitt Romney has said MANY times in recent months, "It's all within the letter of the law".
You notice Mz. Fullsome never said the Obama administration did anything illegal.

Reply August 17, 2012 - edited

FightTheWar

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0J1k84QkG48 Shorter and more to the point.

Reply August 17, 2012 - edited

aznseal

Nobama 2012 leggo.

Reply August 17, 2012 - edited

gath

[quote=BobR]That is just too funny.

The video deliberately tries to deceive by showing the words of the liar himself.
Not someone else's words, not some commentator's words, not any made up untruths, but actual video of the liar taking both sides of the same issues.
Repeatedly.
Consistently.

Deceive by showing the truth. Actual video tape.

Right.[/quote]

Actually, yes. It's a well-documented fallacy, called [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_quoting_out_of_context]Quoting out of context.[/url]

You can't make somebody say something they didn't say with real video. But you [b]can[/b] misrepresent their intended point by taking it out of context. That's what this video does. Thus...deceiving.

Also, as I pointed out in my long post above, (which you failed to address) Romney isn't exactly taking 'both sides of the issue' in most instances. He is deliberately misrepresented in others. Others still have video clips taken from 20 years ago next to ones from now. Whats the similarity? None of those cases cause him to be the 'liar' that you accuse him of.

Reply August 17, 2012 - edited

BobR

[quote=gath]So, yeah. To sum up, this video deliberately tries to deceive the audience in order to gain their support for a particular idea. Ironically, they do this by... saying Romney tries to deceive the audience in order to gain support for a particular idea. Hypocrites.[/quote]
That is just too funny.

The video deliberately tries to deceive by showing the words of the liar himself.
Not someone else's words, not some commentator's words, not any made up untruths, but actual video of the liar taking both sides of the same issues.
Repeatedly.
Consistently.

Deceive by showing the truth. Actual video tape.

Right.

Reply August 17, 2012 - edited

bobchan96

[b]EVEN THOUGH I LIVE IN CANADA[/b] OBAMA. that is all.

Reply August 17, 2012 - edited

gath

[quote=SleepyHobo]He is a liar. He has no position on anything.[/quote]

Let's take some quotes from the video, shall we?

[b]Romney on Healthcare[/b]

(all quotes taken from the clip, chronological order)

"We took that on in Massachusetts, we decided we wanted to get everybody insured, we've done that. I understand that the president considers his plan, [b]in some respects,[/b] following the model of Massachusetts."

So he likes the Massachusetts plan.

"I hope we're ultimately able to repeal some of the differences, (Between Obamacare and the Massachusetts plan, left unsaid) repeal the bad and keep the good."

...but later on, he decides that Obamacare has some flaws.

"What he (Obama) did was wrong, it was bad for the economy, it was bad medicine, and I will repeal it."

...which eventually make the plan a bad idea for him. BUT WAIT!

"Look at [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthy_Americans_Act]Wyden-Bennett[/url]. That's a healthcare plan that a number of Republicans thinks is a very good healthcare plan. One that WE support. Take a look at that one."

Wyden-Bennett (Also known as the Healthy Americans Act) is ALSO a universal healthcare plan. So, how exactly is he lying here? He said that he likes some universal healthcare plans (Wyden-Bennett and the Massachusetts plan) but dislikes Obama's. That doesn't make him a liar, anymore than me saying 'I like pizza' whilst disliking one specific type of pizza. Not liking one type of universal healthcare while liking others is not nearly enough to convict him of lying. NEXT!

Apparently these next two quotes prove that he is a liar as well:

"We also need to say that if someone is carrying a gun, or using a gun, in the commission of a crime, we're going to give them a stiff mandatory sentence"

"I'm not going to suggest who should have criminal charges against them."

Take the second quote to the logical extreme, and technically it proves a lie. Then again, I hardly think Romney meant to say that he thinks people who commit crimes with guns shouldn't have criminal charges. It would be nice if the video gave more context, but I guess that didn't fit with their agenda.

Next...

"I believe in the right of Americans to bear arms"

"We do have tough gun laws in Massachusetts. I support them."

So, supporting gun laws means that you oppose the right to bear arms? News to me. True, he made tough gun laws, but he certainly never made them illegal. Hardly a lie.

Here's another 'lie'

"(Unintelligible)...is to increase the retirement age. That's what they did in Great Britain."

"Europe is not working in Europe, Europe is not going to work here in this country."

Obviously, because Romney thinks that the entire EU as a whole is not working he opposes EVERY DECISION EVER MADE IN EUROPE!1!

The fact that this passes for a lie...causes me great disappointment.

Another lie...

"I think there is a need for economic stimulus...and government can help make that up in a very difficult time."

"I believe that the time for government and spending to solve our problems has passed."

Now this one definitely would be a lie...if the quotes were from similar times. However, as very few people believe that the government should spend a lot of money all the time, it is perfectly fine for Romney to think that spending is good in some situations and bad in others. That's not lying, that's economics. I suppose Keynes is a liar because he thought the government should spend in recessions and save during times of prosperity?

NEXT!

(Interview with Wolf Blitzer)

"I think he (the chairman of the federal reserve, Ben Bernake) is doing a good job."

(Interview with Piers-Morgan, Blitzer's replacement, and thus from a later date)

"The federal reserve should have blown the whistle, they should have said 'this is a huge problem'"

So, he thought the federal reserve was doing a good job, years later, he decided that he was wrong. Lying? Spreading deliberate falsehood? No.

"My view has been to allow the minimum wage to rise with the CPI (consumer price index) so that it adjusts automatically over time."

"[b]Right now[/b] there's probably not a need to raise the minimum wage."

Well, considering that the CPI hasn't exactly shot up recently, is that so surprising? Seems like his views are consistent there.

"Do I think the world is getting hotter? Yeah."

"I do not believe in cap and trade. I do not believe in a carbon tax."

So where exactly is the lie here? He says he believes in global warming, but opposes certain programs to stop it. So what? How is that a lie?

Altogether a very disappointing video. It has done nothing to prove Romney a liar, nor has it proven that he has 'no position on anything'.

It should also be noted that many of the clips of Romney 'lying' consist of video from 20 years ago placed next to video from today. Believe it or not, if someone changes their opinion in twenty years, that does not make them a 'liar'

Now, then on to some quotes from this thread...

[quote=SleepyHobo] There is no single shred of evidence proving Romney isn't a liar.[/quote]

There is no single shred of evidence proving Romney isn't a liar? Is there a shred of evidence anywhere that can prove anybody isn't a liar?

[quote=SleepyHobo]The video isn't biased.[/quote]

[quote=BobR] How is it biased to show ACTUAL VIDEO TAPE of Romney flip flopping on issues..?[/quote]

Right. Because, you know, the image of Ron Paul at 3:01 means nothing. Nor does the fact that the person who made the video has created several other videos supporting Ron Paul.

You know, using real video tape doesn't make you unbiased. It's possible to eliminate context, and present the clips in a way that makes them seem to say something different than what they really mean. The person who made this video? Does that.

[quote=BobR] LYING about everything when it's CONVENIENT for him and when he wants people to elect him for something else.[/quote]

Or, you know, changing his opinion over a twenty year long period. In a few cases. (Most of the clips presented to 'prove' that he is a liar don't show any difference of opinion. A few do. But that's not lying, now, is it?)

So, yeah. To sum up, this video deliberately tries to deceive the audience in order to gain their support for a particular idea. Ironically, they do this by... saying Romney tries to deceive the audience in order to gain support for a particular idea. Hypocrites.

Reply August 17, 2012 - edited

BobR

[quote=RefinedRange]Latinos always vote conservatively[/quote]

Lolol...

Republicans: We love the Dream Act. The Dream Act is good..! It's OUR idea in the first place. Give young illegal Latinos a Path To Citizenship..!

Obama: I guess I can compromise. I like the Dream Act too.

Republicans: We HATE the Dream Act. The Dream Act is BAD..! Deport all the illegals..! Vote down the Dream Act..!

Romney: I'll veto the Dream Act on my first day in office. Self-Deportation... Mexicans go back to Mexico.

Republicans: Build a wall on the border. Shoot all the illegals..! Show Your Papers..!

Obama: 2-year amnesty from deportation for young illegals. Path To Citizenship for illegals brought to the US at a young age.

Romney: Vote for me, Latinos..!