General

A chart will get you no where because chart's are based on theoretical situations which are almost never possible. I remember a time when people believed Corsairs were the top 1v1 in damage theoretically, but there was never a realistic scenario, or even a video, showing a Corsair obtaining a fast boss solo that was one of the top times.

@yennox:

Here's how I see DPS and DPM, also OP read this (this is only considering 1v1, and most charts are for 1v1 anyways):

DPS measures just 1 skill, usually the class's strongest 1v1 skill. We want to find the max possible %damage a class can do in one second, which is usually only one skill, and possible two depending on how fast the skill is. In general, it is usually only one skill.

When we calculate DPM, we want to find out the max possible %damage a class can do in a minute. This is not always confined to one skill, and can include multiple skills.

For example, DB's max %damage per minute would not only include using Phantom Blow, but also include using their hyper, Asura, which lasts for ten seconds. Another example would be for Mechanic's old siege mode, which lasted for 5 seconds. Calculating the skill's DPS is not useful because it does not calculate the class's DPS; it calculates the DPS of the skill ONLY: So Asura's DPS could be "x", but since it has a cooldown of 60 seconds, you cannot just multiply the DPS Asura does by 60, meaning that Asura's DPS does not equal DB's DPS.

A class's DPS does not equal a class's DPM if you multiple it by 60. They are not the same, because a whole lot more can happen in a minute than in a second. For example, as a DB, in a minute I would have probably (on a single target): used final cut, used Asura, then used phantom blow (not accounting for buffs because I did this before the boss is even summoned). However, if you wanted to calculate my DPS, you would just account for Phantom Blow. The most damage I can do in a second is with Phantom Blow, because I cannot always use Asura, and FC is not for valid use as a DPS calculator.

Which one is more accurate? DPM probably is, because it accounts for the whole scenario as a whole. What is the max possible %damage a class can do in a minute? Most people cannot solo a boss in under a minute, and if you can, DPS is for you. However, the majority of Maplers take longer than a minute. Therefore, a DPM calculation is more useful for you.

@yennox: yes you can use demon impac for 1 minute after that revamp (so 60 casts) and with hypers it cost 5 fury so 24 times after boundles rage has end

anyways IT DOESN'T MATTER since its a DPS chart you only need 1 second (just 1 demon impact) not a spam of that skill.......

and you dont have to account buff times/delays since its a FREAKING DPS chart (damage per second)

[quote=SombraManx]that chart is so wrong..

demon slayers hit 13.4 times with demon impact + blue blood,[/quote]

a) You cannot use Demon Impact all the time because you will run out of Fury
b) You have to account for buff times

What if a skill takes 2 seconds to cast? Wouldn't the DPS be half of that? Say it takes 2 seconds to do 2m damage. Wouldn't the DPS = 1m? >_>

[quote=mark24]there is no dpm chart that is accurate. here is the most accurate dps chart available

http://www.southperry.net/showthread.php?t=62432&title=Summarized%20%/s%20List

phack dark knight is at the bottom, ajkdsdblanbdlka;s

use rapid fire you dam phantoms! use it![/quote]

that chart is so wrong..

demon slayers hit 13.4 times with demon impact + blue blood, this guy gave us fake info and is trolling you all right now, also, kaiser is the strongest DPM wise on static mobs, but you can show your true potential on bosses like root abyss dragon (bellum) that dissapears on the ground.... then kaiser ends being weakest than pallys

[quote=Satoshi1234]
Nothing, really. The fact that DPS and DPM (or Burst Damage and Damage Over A Long Time, as I see them) are different was the only thing that I intended to point out in this thread, actually. XD[/quote]

I see DPS and DPM as the same thing, and consider 'burst damage' a completely different concept. You are free to believe otherwise. I doubt I can change how you think.

[quote=yennox]DPM/DPS charts exist to provide theoretical damage output under perfect conditions--everyone is aware of their flaws. I don't see what what you're trying to argue here. [/quote]

I was just making a point that DPS and DPM are actually different things, even if only slightly. Then it kinda... expanded from there. XD

[quote=yennox]
The whole point of DPS/DPM is to find the optimal combination of your skills and how much they'll amount to over time with all measurable factors considered, with unmeasurable factors up to personal interpretation, such as avoid rates, stance and status resistance.[/quote]
Those unmeasurable factors are what I'm talking about. They are the primary reasons that DPS and DPM are different, as they cause interruptions that most calculations cannot account for simply due to the complexity and unpredictability. The interruptions are what cause the split between DPS and DPM; attacks halt while cooldown timers continue. Thus, "burst" attacks (one of the better examples being Snipe) play a larger role on overall damage than the "perfect scenario" calculations make them out to be.

[quote=yennox]
If you're not going to measure it by the second, why would you call it [b]Damage Per Second[/b]?[/quote]
I'm not too concerned with the whole "Damage Per Second" and "Damage Per Minute" thing. I care mostly about "Burst Damage" and "Damage over <insert relatively long amount of time here>", which are what I'm talking about. The increments of time that we measure should not be the same no matter what situation we're trying to account for; if they are, we end up with those annoying calculation situations that you mentioned in your previous post. XD

[quote=yennox]
If you're only looking for 'burst damage', you can already find it easily by looking at skill percentages and their cast times. If you're going to do this, then there's no point in even considering a chart because you're working under the assumption that you could get interrupted at any moment.[/quote]
I see what you're getting at, but that's not the point I was trying to make. If one "extreme" would be assuming that all combat situations are perfect (in which powerful burst damage has no more importance than overall DPM), then that makes what you just mentioned the polar opposite "extreme", assuming that combat consists of nearly endless interruptions (in which powerful burst damage is really the only thing that will do more than tickle the enemy).
In actual gameplay, it tends to be an unpredictable blend of the two that is, in newer bosses especially, enough to set "Burst Damage" and "Damage over A Long Time" apart, which is sort of what I'm getting at here.

[quote=yennox]
Once again, what exactly are you trying to argue for, apart from my initial statement that 'DPM and DPS are measuring the same thing'?[/quote]
Nothing, really. The fact that DPS and DPM (or Burst Damage and Damage Over A Long Time, as I see them) are different was the only thing that I intended to point out in this thread, actually. XD

[quote=Satoshi1234]I see what you're getting at.
-We measure whichever attack or attack combo we want to. Of course, the preferred method is to measure all of the more likely possibilities and then treat them as entirely separate results (i.e. Kaiser vs Assassinate-Spamming Shadower vs M.Carnival-Spamming Shadower vs -etc-, or something of the sort. Of course, it's much more complicated than this, with cooldowns and combos and all, but you get the general idea. XD).[/quote]

DPM/DPS charts exist to provide theoretical damage output under perfect conditions--everyone is aware of their flaws. I don't see what what you're trying to argue here.

The whole point of DPS/DPM is to find the optimal combination of your skills and how much they'll amount to over time with all measurable factors considered, with unmeasurable factors up to personal interpretation, such as avoid rates, stance and status resistance.

[quote=Satoshi1234]
-Note that we don't have to measure strictly by the "second", either; rather, we'd get much more accurate results if we measured by the cast time of the individual skill, or some sort of multiple of it (although if cooldowns are a factor, then the cast time itself will work best). That way, we get a more reliable concept of what the class's "burst damage" capabilities are. XD[/quote]

If you're not going to measure it by the second, why would you call it [b]Damage Per Second[/b]?

If you're only looking for 'burst damage', you can already find it easily by looking at skill percentages and their cast times. If you're going to do this, then there's no point in even considering a chart because you're working under the assumption that you could get interrupted at any moment.

Once again, what exactly are you trying to argue for, apart from my initial statement that 'DPM and DPS are measuring the same thing'?

[quote=yennox]For argument's sake, I will assume that DPS and DPM are different for this post.

How do you propose we measure character strengths if we are unable to maintain a consistent attack pattern? For a class like Shadowers, which are capable of dishing out over 10,000% damage per cast of Assassinate in one moment but fall back to 2000% per cast of Midnight Carnival, or 2400% per cast of Boomerang Stab, which is used once every 690ms?

Do we measure the DPS with Assassinate, or do we measure it with Midnight Carnival? What happens when a skill hasn't finished casting within that one second? Does that mean the class technically did no damage in that one instantaneous moment of 'burst damage'? And what about skills that cast in less than a second, but aren't fast enough for two casts? How do we measure that?[/quote]

I see what you're getting at.
-We measure whichever attack or attack combo we want to. Of course, the preferred method is to measure all of the more likely possibilities and then treat them as entirely separate results (i.e. Kaiser vs Assassinate-Spamming Shadower vs M.Carnival-Spamming Shadower vs -etc-, or something of the sort. Of course, it's much more complicated than this, with cooldowns and combos and all, but you get the general idea. XD).
-Note that we don't have to measure strictly by the "second", either; rather, we'd get much more accurate results if we measured by the cast time of the individual skill, or some sort of multiple of it (although if cooldowns are a factor, then the cast time itself will work best). That way, we get a more reliable concept of what the class's "burst damage" capabilities are. XD

there is no dpm chart that is accurate. here is the most accurate dps chart available

http://www.southperry.net/showthread.php?t=62432&title=Summarized%20%/s%20List

phack dark knight is at the bottom, ajkdsdblanbdlka;s

use rapid fire you dam phantoms! use it!

[quote=Satoshi1234]
However, in a video game, DPS and DPM can't really be treated equally, since you will most likely not be able to maintain a consistent attacking pattern with higher-level bosses.
You will find that your attacks will be halted every now and then (by Seduce, etc); however, while your attacks are halted, the cooldowns on skills will continue to diminish uninterrupted. Thus, "burst damage" (i.e. the damage and cooldown of Snipe) becomes of somewhat greater importance, and, experimentally, actually has a greater role in overall damage than the calculated DPM makes it out to be.
The differences between experimental DPS and DPM aren't as noticeable in Maplestory as they are in other games, since interruptions between the player's attacks in this game are minimal at worst, but hey, it's still something. XD[/quote]

For argument's sake, I will assume that DPS and DPM are different for this post.

How do you propose we measure character strengths if we are unable to maintain a consistent attack pattern? For a class like Shadowers, which are capable of dishing out over 10,000% damage per cast of Assassinate in one moment but fall back to 2000% per cast of Midnight Carnival, or 2400% per cast of Boomerang Stab, which is used once every 690ms?

Do we measure the DPS with Assassinate, or do we measure it with Midnight Carnival? What happens when a skill hasn't finished casting within that one second? Does that mean the class technically did no damage in that one instantaneous moment of 'burst damage'? And what about skills that cast in less than a second, but aren't fast enough for two casts? How do we measure that?

@mahenrules: u said high dps=high dpm
pretty much saying MM have high DPS because they have high DPM

[quote=heero]i literally love you
you are the first person on basil who is correct on this

DPS and DPM both take into account skill delays (animation casting) as well as cooldowns if applicable. Anybody using the "snipe is such high dps but not high dpm becuz of animation" should be burned at the stake. Any competent sixth grader should understand this.[/quote]

I think you're misunderstanding it a bit here.
Everything that you and the person you just quoted would be bang-on accurate if we were discussing [i]average[/i] DPS and DPM, which, as you concluded after your edit, are pretty much the exact same ratio when simplified.
However, in a video game, DPS and DPM can't really be treated equally, since you will most likely not be able to maintain a consistent attacking pattern with higher-level bosses. You will find that your attacks will be halted every now and then (by Seduce, etc); however, while your attacks are halted, the cooldowns on skills will continue to diminish uninterrupted. Thus, "burst damage" (i.e. the damage and cooldown of Snipe) becomes of somewhat greater importance, and, experimentally, actually has a greater role in overall damage than the calculated DPM makes it out to be.
The differences between experimental DPS and DPM aren't as noticeable in Maplestory as they are in other games, since interruptions between the player's attacks in this game are minimal at worst, but hey, it's still something. XD

Thanks and can someone please post the official DPM chart?

It depends how long it takes you to kill bosses, if it takes less than a minute, then generally DPS is more important, if it takes longer than a minute (or at whatever point DPM on a certain class passes the DPS*60 on another class) DPM is more important.

DPM and DPS are measuring the same thing. It's hard to compare numbers when they all have 6-7 digits, so people use DPS because they're easier to manage.

Anyone who tells you that there is a meaningful difference between the two, other than one is measured per second and one over a period of a minute, is retarded.

[quote=mahenrules]dpm: damage per minute
dps: damage per second

if you have high dps, u also have high dpm?[/quote]
Incorrect. A skill that does 50m damage for 1 second but has a cooldown will make your DPS high, but your DPM lower. Compared to a 1m damage every second for 60 seconds.

Dps>Dpm.

Most bosses will be using DR if you're a higher level bosser.
Crashing is the only way to ensure safety, unless you have a million of the revive thingies.
You will need to inflict as much damage as you can before the crash ends.
Thus, dps>dpm.

@mahenrules
thats true but do MM have high DPS?
no they dont
they have high DPM because of unlimited snipe which takes forever to cast