General

@demoneyez97 you mean give heroes shield mastery like the paladins?

@Enkane: i WAS assumming both did large damage, i played against bomber and his kin back then, it was easy enough to just FJ away, however i remember the hero fireboy i think was the ign? killing me stupidly fast, so yeah, hero beat pallies in levels of threat in my book.

only moment in which the paladin had a bigger threat level was if you decided to tackle it head-on in a "one has to die" battle, but if someone did that they were new to PVP.

@MyKarma: As far as I know nothing much changed in that retrospect. Though drks got a nice set of fail safes as shinku mentioned. I don't count being able to drain as having more survival ability over the other, since the capacity to live is the same, only thing is that drain saves pots. Drks gained reincarnation though, which is very very very [i]nice[/i]. I wanna see them get some form of damage reduction to balance out with heroes and heroes to gain more damage to make a distinction between the classes. That's all I really ask.

@izama:

Yep, Heroes have always had better survivability/defense than Drks. It could change with the red patch, but I'm not familiar enough with heroes to be certain.

@MyKarma: That was my bad, excuse my ignorance there. I forgot about achilles. Thanks for that correction. But as you said all warriors had it, while heroes still had pg, and they lost it shortly after (achilles). So there was never a point heroes were the lowest of the 3 in terms of def.

Heroes should have the lowest defense [b]of the 3 explorer warriors[/b].
That doesn't mean they should have low defense, they're still an up close fighter which implies a decent amount of defense.

[quote=MyKarma]@izama:

You're wrong, Darks had damage reduction (achilles) along with the other two warrior counterparts. Achilles got swapped out for Dark impale later, but Darks [b]did[/b] have damage reduction at one point.[/quote]

This; although it was debateably pretty pointless then since as far as I know almost no one actually had damage reduction back when we still had that (besides the other 2 warriors) and at that time the only really dangerous thing we ran into was the likes of 1/1 (im not sure if seduce actually existed yet outside of hornedtail; it was a LONG time ago =P)

@izama:

You're wrong, Darks had damage reduction (achilles) along with the other two warrior counterparts. Achilles got swapped out for Dark impale later, but Darks [b]did[/b] have damage reduction at one point.

[quote=darkspawn980]oh hey, it's not me doing this argument this time!

@enkane: i'll just say i found heroes more of a threat in PVP, fighting pallies was retarded, but they simply couldn't kill me fast enough, they lacked the damage to be any kind of threat, but against a hero i got pretty much 3HKO'd in original PVP.[/quote]
Well lets assume both do high dmg, what then?

@Enkane: That makes Heroes the lowest survival ability of the 3 warriors. Not unable to survive, and I stated how much damage reduction I had in mind, which is only 10% lower than that of kms. Oh god you'll take 500 more damage. Please. Stop. 500 more damage for the sake of hitting 100-200k a line to make a clear distinction of which warrior is the hard hitter. You guys complain about your damage now, then please cry more after the revamp because you clearly don't know what you want. I already mentioned in a previous post that [b]EITHER[/b] decrease it and increase their damage to balance out with drks, [b]OR[/b] just give drks more def and damage reduction skills, [b]AND[/b] increase heroes damage while leaving their def the same. This must of clearly went over your head but here it is again. Boolean operators bold for ya even so you can see the combinations. And yes you did make that claim. It was in your first quote.

"Taking our survivablity will make us less of a threat, we will die easily ,and frankly no one would want to be a hero if this happened. Our defense isn't even that great so lets just leave it as it is."
You said their defense wasn't great, and I told you its far better than most classes in the game for what heroes lack. Heroes don't have nearly as much weakness in the game that balance out what they deliver, nor do they have the proper amount of damage imo hence why I said I favored a buff with a [i]small[/i] def nerf. I can't believe how dense people are to this and cry rivers over anything that shows a decrease. Learn to look at a bigger picture. No where in your posts did you claim heroes were the least of the 3, just that they were bad, and I want them to be the least of the 3 in def, but the best in damage. You're only putting emphasis on what I've already said that you just did not seem to read in light of me saying reduce their def.

@above: False. Darks never had damage reduction in their life and was forced to zerk their hp away since the old days. Heroe's have always had 50% damage reduction, so worst? Hell to the no.

@below: Pvp doesn't use our actual ranges. How godly you are outside of pvp means jack inside. It's all about battle mode damage, and even then, heroes were able to 1-2 hit me, 1 hit far more often while pallys were nothing at all. They weren't a threat so stop using pvp as an example.

Hero's defense was always the lowest out of all the 3 and I never cared about it so much but with all these post RED changes esp on Pally that there's no point in using a hero now when you can just roll a pally and be tanky + high damage output (their new charge mechanic is broken)

[quote=izama]@Enkane: I didn't say you had to. I'm defending mines as you are defending yours. I'm also telling you defense isnt threat. Offense is whats threat. You're putting too much stress on something that won't kill your class. You still have damage reduction which goes a far way, and you claimed warriors have poor survival ability which was false. People just don't seem to understand what any of these terms mean and freak out at a small change like dropping one stat a bit and increasing another to balance out.

And again idk why you used the horrible examples you used like PVP. PVE skills =/= PVP. In fact my most damage moves in pvp were all the skills I use LEAST in pve, so much that I could be a threat in PVP simply by running around and doing god knows what. You may have used the wrong skill when you pvp'ed but heroes are definitely bigger threats in the old pvp, and in the pve game than pallys.[/quote]

You said to lower the defense and damage reduction of Hero and give more defense to Drks, so that Hero has the lowest survivability so that the 3 can be balanced. I believe that decreasing is unnecessary and they should just increase Drk survivability.(give them a significant amount of dmg reduction or something) I never claimed [b]warriors[/b] had poor survivability. Warriors have great survivablity. I claimed in terms of all 3 Hero is moderate (so i'm comparing warriors). Of course compared to other classes warrior defense is amazing, but i'm focusing on warriors here and nothing else.

@Enkane: I didn't say you had to. I'm defending mines as you are defending yours. I'm also telling you defense isnt threat. Offense is whats threat. You're putting too much stress on something that won't kill your class. You still have damage reduction which goes a far way, and you claimed warriors have poor survival ability which was false. People just don't seem to understand what any of these terms mean and freak out at a small change like dropping one stat a bit and increasing another to balance out.

And again idk why you used the horrible examples you used like PVP. PVE skills =/= PVP. In fact my most damage moves in pvp were all the skills I use LEAST in pve, so much that I could be a threat in PVP simply by running around and doing god knows what. You may have used the wrong skill when you pvp'ed but heroes are definitely bigger threats in the old pvp, and in the pve game than pallys.

[quote=izama]@izama: To be a threat you're talking about someones ability to deal damage, not take it. PVP is also dead and I've killed pallys pretty easy there, so that wasn't a great example.
A pallys absolute defense doesn't make a boss killable, it makes it so you can survive against them. If you have the funding to cap on a pally, that's one thing. If you have the same funding on a hero, their survival ability is a lot better than you think. So I don't know where you are trying to go with that, a hero is always the better killer. Now if you're talking post red, none of them will be hitting the cap , so just looking at their raw damage, a hero is still the bigger threat. Or are you telling me its too hard to hit a pot button? Though as long as bosses do % damage in kms, then I can see why you would complain about it, but everyone is in the same boat so you wont have a right to complain still. Here in our version of ms, heros have good survial ability andd you said in your previous comment that it was bad, which is totally false. If they give more def with dark then its ok where they are, but as I've said before I'm only looking for balance , and they aren't going in that direction when they have drks stronger than heros and heros with more damage reduction than drks who have none. Though drks do have their perks with reincarnation and drain, so it has some tug and pull depending on the situation. I know everyone complains. This is basil. Get used to seeing different opinions.[/quote]

I'm used to seeing different opinions, doesn't mean I have to like them ._.

oh hey, it's not me doing this argument this time!

@enkane: i'll just say i found heroes more of a threat in PVP, fighting pallies was retarded, but they simply couldn't kill me fast enough, they lacked the damage to be any kind of threat, but against a hero i got pretty much 3HKO'd in original PVP.

@Enkane: To be a threat you're talking about someones ability to deal damage, not take it. PVP is also dead and I've killed pallys pretty easy there, so that wasn't a great example.
A pallys absolute defense doesn't make a boss killable, it makes it so you can survive against them. If you have the funding to cap on a pally, that's one thing. If you have the same funding on a hero, their survival ability is a lot better than you think. So I don't know where you are trying to go with that, a hero is always the better killer. Now if you're talking post red, none of them will be hitting the cap , so just looking at their raw damage, a hero is still the bigger threat. Or are you telling me its too hard to hit a pot button? Though as long as bosses do % damage in kms, then I can see why you would complain about it, but everyone is in the same boat so you wont have a right to complain still. Here in our version of ms, heros have good survial ability andd you said in your previous comment that it was bad, which is totally false. If they give more def with dark then its ok where they are, but as I've said before I'm only looking for balance , and they aren't going in that direction when they have drks stronger than heros and heros with more damage reduction than drks who have none. Though drks do have their perks with reincarnation and drain, so it has some tug and pull depending on the situation. I know everyone complains. This is basil. Get used to seeing different opinions.

[quote=izama]That makes no sense. To be less of a threat you need to be weaker not have lower defense. Hero survivalbility isn't even bad, though probably less effective post RED. You must not play ranged characters much or play your hero very lazily down to near death if you have trouble surviving. I know people will want to to avoid their hero if they lower their defs since they're already complaining about trivial things, and I didn't say they have to do that. I'm not a employee for nexon korea, but I understand the basic difference among the trinity. People have to stop feeling privileged or pampered.

It should be damage : Hero > drk > pally
Survival: Pally > drk > hero

Even if they dont lower their defense or survival skills, they should up their damage to surpass post red drks and add more def to drks or subtract them from heroes. I don't know why people are knit picking the finest details of my post. Its def get over it. You still have damage reduction which is far better.[/quote]

On the contrary it does make sense. In pvp who was more of a threat a Hero or a Pally? Against bosses those with the best defense (pally) is much more of a threat. I said our survivability isn't that great meaning its alright (not bad)so I agree with you. I never said I had trouble surviving ._. If they give more defense to Drks thats fine I won't complain, but I will complain if they decrease our defense. Everyone complains about trivial things here so get used to it.

[quote=Enkane]
@izama Taking our survivablity will make us less of a threat, we will die easily ,and frankly no one would want to be a hero if this happened. Our defense isn't even that great so lets just leave it as it is.[/quote]

That makes no sense. To be less of a threat you need to be weaker not have lower defense. Hero survivalbility isn't even bad, though probably less effective post RED. You must not play ranged characters much or play your hero very lazily down to near death if you have trouble surviving. I know people will want to to avoid their hero if they lower their defs since they're already complaining about trivial things, and I didn't say they have to do that. I'm not a employee for nexon korea, but I understand the basic difference among the trinity. People have to stop feeling privileged or pampered.

It should be damage : Hero > drk > pally
Survival: Pally > drk > hero

Even if they dont lower their defense or survival skills, they should up their damage to surpass post red drks and add more def to drks or subtract them from heroes. I don't know why people are knit picking the finest details of my post. Its def get over it. You still have damage reduction which is far better.

[quote=David0696]Very cool stuff! [/quote]

[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3dg-tkGK70&feature=youtube_gdata_player][/url] (for David)

@calabari That is the Truth -_- They think we are the favorite of the 3.
@Kindles So basically you want us to be buffed pre-red drks? Nty
@izama Taking our survivablity will make us less of a threat, we will die easily ,and frankly no one would want to be a hero if this happened. Our defense isn't even that great so lets just leave it as it is.

@ToyFactory: You must of failed to read any of my posts. I never said they deserve crap defense, and of the 3 warriors they should have the lowest. Right now and for as long as I've played one they've been amazing bosser simply because they took the best of both worlds, which makes no sense. When I say gimp, I imply lowering some of their defense skills , giving them a small passive heal, and giving them LARGE damage boosts, that make them clearly the damage dealers of the warrior race. You don't have to agree on me as this being your ideal warrior, but its what the 3 warriors were suppoused to be like. Hero- damage dealers, Drks- in between, Pallys - immortal. The balance and distinction is what's broken here.

This is what a warrior is like in most games:
(this example from tera warriors)
A warrior's role in a party is to pile on damage and keep opponents away from the ranged classes. Evasive tactics make fights more dynamic, but pay attention when leading an enemy.
Warriors focus on keeping bosses off balance and confused while delivering impressive damage. The warrior's best attacks sacrifice HP for power, so keep a healer nearby.

I'm also not sure you even understand the terms you are even using. Squishy has no implication to defense. A warrior is never squishy compared to ranged chars. Warriors have have 100% stance, so they aren't bounced around the battle field like ranged characters are. They are strong, proud, sturdy characters and reducing their defense doesn't take that away or make them "squishy." Taking their stance will.

@Kindles: ops sorry you play ems... our aran card works a bit different

@calabari: Oh trust me, I'm a pirate so I know class favoritism. xD Heroe's being solely based on damage is just a basic concept. They want to make things balanced but they're not very keen to what balance is. They're balancing out class damage rather than class roles. Drks should be between pally and hero with damage and survival ability. Pally should be the worst at damage but feel immortal. It would be fair for heros if they gimp their survial ability and increase their damage. Boosting that enrage version of RB back, and maybe removing hero's damage reduction or give them buffs to increase their damage while sacrificing their hp at a poison lvl 2 or 3 rate. If people see heroes can be hard to survive with then they can't complain about the damage boosts. That's just my opinion. As for how balanced it is, either direction you go you will have complaints and people seeing one guy as being the favorite.

@izama: All I'm saying is that for heroes to be solely based on damage output and loss of defense, they really don't have the damage to dish it out.
I would settle for some skills to help in bossing because you know all the other warrior classes would have a fit if they saw heroes do more damage. It would be "Nexon favoring Heroes once again."

@calabari: Think nexon. o.o Idk what makes them make those weird changes. Something like this would be fine though it shys away from the hero's role a bit. It's not too large so I guess it's fair.

If I could make a change I would reduce the damage reduction given to maybe 15-20% (then give some to darks).

I would add the small passive hp recovery for heros, and add a new skill. I don't have a name for it , but at a 30% chance they would effectively become completely enraged after taking damage, boosting their attack speed 1 stage and damage by maybe 30-50% for just a few seconds. Enough to pull off a few rbs. I think 30% activation is reasonable. It's slightly nerfed to pirates revenge, and with a hero it should activate fairly often to help boost their damage back up pass what darks have. How's that sound?

[quote=calabari]@izama: All I want is passive 5% HP instead of 400/1000 after RED.
But 10 hit Blast? Really?[/quote]

In my eyes something like that is fine, I know the pain of having a crappy healing skill (beholder's aura pre-RED when it only healed 540 hp) You'll need to excuse my earlier backlash. When I hear someone mention "more survivability" I automatically think; MOAR DAMAGE REDUCTION!

Also is 10 hit blast REALLY that bad? It only gets them to something like 12.5k ~ 13k% / second

@izama: All I want is passive 5% HP instead of 400/1000 after RED.
But 10 hit Blast? Really?

[quote=calabari] My Bowman survives much more easily than my Hero. Everything hits % now.

It's all nice to say that we sacrifice defense for damage, but when pallies and DrKs pretty much cannot die and do almost the same damage... there's no real reason to play a hero anymore. (Besides the fun factor, that is. And that makes me sad)[/quote]

All of the bosses that have % hp damage, have fairly simple to dodge attacks (even moreso after RED when you have a genuine flash jump, and the ability to rush without mobs being present) Your bowman surviving more than your hero is probably just a case of it having better mobility for the time being =P All heroes really need is more power (and I can't believe im going to make this reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_DqV1xdf-Y ) If this game actually had a deep combat system like say...... Vindictus, i'd give heroes something like a parry to counter an enemies blow, and then riposte them to deal massive damage (of course this would only work on a physical strike)

@calabari: No. Serious exaggeration. Only ra bosses and magnus hits % now, so I can understand if you have issues surviving there on your hero, especially when mobility is a factor there.

Pallys aren't ment to die and do no where close to hero damage. If this happens to you, that pally is doing something right. I love my hero, if you don't, you can quit yours; but I never have issues surviving on a hero even when mines didn't have enough hp to tank bf back in the days. Warriors have it made for survival ability and hero's have had the best of both worlds for far too long. In my personal opinion, they shouldn't have as great a def as drks, and drks should have some sort of damage reduction already. Hero's need more buff to their damage instead and they'll be fine to me.

@izama: My Bowman survives much more easily than my Hero. Everything hits % now.

It's all nice to say that we sacrifice defense for damage, but when pallies and DrKs pretty much cannot die and do almost the same damage... there's no real reason to play a hero anymore. (Besides the fun factor, that is. And that makes me sad)

[quote=calabari]Except now that's all changing. The others are catching up and we are left with absolutely no survivability.[/quote]

Say that to ranged classes. It's not that bad at all. Your survivalability is good and it didn't go down post red. For most of the range classes, they didn't gain more hp/damage reduction/dodge. They gained strange ways of avoiding some status that can hurt or help them.

In any case I agree with @llazershock: that one should not have both the strongest sword and shield. I love playing warriors in almost every game I play, and the traditional theme is that they usually sacrifice defense for massive offense. It's pretty common to see one having a skill that drains their hp constantly to boost damage or something of the sort. We don't have that here in maple, so our heros have been all around tanks from the beginning. They been ideal bosses for ever with almost no weakness.

@lazershock DUDE! Send Nexon a letter of your ideas. Goddamn. Of course, realistically they won't listen to you.

@KushiMushy: HB is a fine buff in my eyes; Iron will DEFINITELY needs to be reworked though, maybe change it into an hp based skill where the party recieves 2% damage reduction for every 10% hp the dark knight has currently out of his max (capping at 20% damage reduction) it'd be much more useful that way, AND it would stay in line with our hp theme. Heroes definitely need a damage buff, not anything TOO crazy; but just enough to put them back to around 22~23k% / second =P

@lazershock I don't know if it is just me but even though I love my Drk to death and I love our buffs I felt heroes got shafted. They feel the same after the revamp cept like 2 new skills and animations (estimating here). Still I feel like we both need more party oriented skills (b/c iron will is useless) like the paladin (they got i think four so far). I am a party guy and i want to contribute to my party not just with HB, which is getting outdated.

@KushiMushy: Well, the only real outlier here is dark knights for....... Obvious reasons.
Imo I think the correct way to do this is just give heroes back the OP broken raging blow they had 1 or 2 patches ago when it was like 335% x 5 ALONG with enrages new effect of increasing raging blow by 10%. That would put them above dark's barring that special circumstance we all know about. (which we can't really use for damage calculations simply because its in the same league as Dual Blade's no cooldown FC)

@lazershock Good idea but too bad Nexon don't think the same as you. They screwed the roles of the 3 jobs.

[quote=lazershock]If anything all you guys really need is a bit more damage. Remember one cannot wield the strongest shield and the strongest sword at the same time =P
In short: isn't it supposed to be that heroes have the best damage, but the worst survivability; dark knights have a mix of both survivability and damage; and paladin's have the lowest damage, but the highest survivability (not including elemental monsters)[/quote]

Except now that's all changing. The others are catching up and we are left with absolutely no survivability.

If anything all you guys really need is a bit more damage. Remember one cannot wield the strongest shield and the strongest sword at the same time =P
In short: isn't it supposed to be that heroes have the best damage, but the worst survivability; dark knights have a mix of both survivability and damage; and paladin's have the lowest damage, but the highest survivability (not including elemental monsters)

I really don't undetstand why pally gets an op healing skill and we don't. We need it more

mix both of the above options, and you get some really strong survival, +1 second invincibility can up to duplicate the time you stay alive. on my dark knight i can stand under fire of the mixed golems from future perion for a good while before i lose 30k hp, and that is without any damage reducing skills like achilles. or power guard.

[quote=Kindles]Honestly my biggest problem with Heros is the lack of any healing abilities. Sure we deal great damage and have an okay amount of HP, but as soon as we get hit hard in a potion-lock map, we're completely screwed.[/quote]

Rank S aran card, problem solved?

Potion pot makes healing not so bad.

[quote=Enkane]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RY36Zu_dPQ
@David0696 @lBishopXl @bello99
Look at the "revamped" shout and the range.[/quote]

Very cool stuff!

Guys think of the bright side. Maybe when 5th jobs come out, they'll make heros stronger

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RY36Zu_dPQ
@David0696 @lBishopXl @bello99
Look at the "revamped" shout and the range.

It's very disappointing. Nexon was actually living up to their claim that Heroes would once again be damage kings. Sure, it was pretty strong before. But I feel that it was balanced out considering the fact that we are giving up our ability to mob for more damage.

[quote=RefinedRange]Wait so I can make my Hero a Paladin?[/quote]
Yup, and I was actually thinking about doing it so you aren't the only one. >_>

Wait so I can make my Hero a Paladin?

[quote=dashx4]So uh about that rage change since now they combined both half-ish the effect of stance with it. Does it still cancel out atk pots when used? Last time I played this game was during IS was the new 4th job attack so I'm not if anything changed in between.[/quote]

The properties of rage were infused with power infusion; it should be 2 buffs in 1. Therefore, the property of rage now should be the property of power reflection in the future. Weapon attack potions should still stack.

So uh about that rage change since now they combined both half-ish the effect of stance with it. Does it still cancel out atk pots when used? Last time I played this game was during IS was the new 4th job attack so I'm not if anything changed in between.

[quote=lBishopXl]@bello99 The Critical on Incising actual does help. As @Enkane said, we are guaranteed 2 criticals on Raging Blow, so that's an automatic additional 20% on the criticals. And it's really easy to obtain Crit%: 5% starting + 15% from Phantom + 10% from Hyper + 20% from Enrage gives 50% altogether. That means we can get an average of 4 Criticals per RB and an additional Critical from AFA. And with our new 90% Mastery, it should be even easier to hit higher numbers. Also, the 10% resistance helps, to me at least. Add the 30% Status Resistance with the 20% Status Resistance from Willpower and we get an automatic 50% Resistance Rate.

Also, I don't understand why many think that Heroes got shafted. The only "nerf" that I can see is the loss of the Enrage-boosted RB. Sure we lost 15% additional damage, but I'd say that we were strong even before that Enrage-boosted RB. Yeah, it sounds bad, but as someone said earlier, this is still Tespia; so overall, we got a huge boost which I believe can be summarized really nicely by @mattrimkevx. He also forgot the No CD Panic and Passive Stance, meaning that we have less buffs to cast (no more Stance+PowerReflection Casting. ).

Oh! And Red Flash Jump for us! LOL!

I haven't tested it yet, but can the Golems be stunned? Or are they considered non-normal monsters? I only ask this because Coma/Shout may be helpful here for training/doing more damage for those who need it.[/quote]

Golems cannot be stunned. They are like how LHC monsters were before the Unleashed patch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4lNft7rNGA is me training at Golems.