General

[quote=darkorbit6]Well, magic attack scrolls/items are hard to find you know, since most of the classes are melee and uses physical attack, other than battle mages.

Other than that, mages moderate/high damage makes up for they're normal/slow attack speeds they receive from their staves (or wands) and they're normal/slow skills, which usually attacks 1 time or is a DoT skill.
For melee attackers, they have moderate damage, normal/fast attack weapons, but the large percentage of them have fast attacks(i.e.: NLs, Shads, All Archers, Heros, etc) and of course, multiple attacks for one skill.

So really mages are dpm>dps, wouldn't it be akward to see a mage kill at the speed of a db?(exclude battle mages)[/quote]

to find the dpm or dps of a class you kill somthing and take its HP/how much time killed in. from that you can get dps dpm dphour dpday cause the whole point is to find the average, not just how much damage hit in 1 hit.

Actually 1 magic attack is not worth less than 1 attack, that's just the final multiplier of the whole formula, what's different is the multiplier including the skill % dmgs as comparison to other classes

Mages actually have access to more magic attack equips. It is not this factor that effects mage's dpm. It's the fact that staves and wands have a 1.2x multiplier while most other weapons have much higher than that. Mages also cannot reach full potential due to damage cap (single hitting skills compared to multihitting skills). This last one is changed a bit in the jump patch though.

Well duh.
There's also the fact that for 5 years, INT = M.atk, so people have been scrolling INT items.
Now suddenly M.atk is useful, and there isn't much M.atk items floating around.

@ihafuf: In a lot of games, mages are quite high on the DPM charts. They're more nukers than DPS'ers, though. Hell, in a lot of games, if you give a Mage 1min to charge up, they'll own the crap out of anything that crosses their path. They're just supposed to have debuffs to do stuff while their skills are in cooldown. F3

@Khar:
Ask Nexon that, mages should never be a offensive class, just looks stupid.

well i said 200 OR MORE

don't try to be a smartass

Read all of it, your theory actually does make sense. Most people have the mindset mages have crap DPS and less pro players who are willing to fund it extensively will play it, while popular classes, whether or not they're high in DPS, willl be seen as better by the maple community. Mages may be really good with M.Atk wg, but theres still jump update to make them better.

"but the result of PRO players choosing NL and funding them enough to feed a small village in africa"

Haha, well said. So true, yet sad.

[quote=Fuzzy][url=http://www.basilmarket.com/MapleStory-item-Scroll-for-Gloves-for-INT-30--2379.html]And you were[/url] [url=http://www.basilmarket.com/MapleStory-item-Scroll-for-Gloves-for-INT-70--2380.html]doing so good too... [/url]... on second thought, no you weren't.

Might I also remind you of Earring INT scrolls vs Earring STR/DEX/LUK and the amount of shoes/gloves that come with Magic attack versus shoes/gloves that come with weapon attack? How about purple capes anyone?[/quote]

People scroll with 10%'s and 60%'s to avoid blowing up godly items. Good job!
Purple capes? What about Blackfists? PACs?
Earring INT and shoes with M. ATT are pretty good, but they don't balance out the absence of good M. ATT glove scrolls.

[quote=HyperBody657]If this is a hypothesis it should have: If, then, because.[/quote]

ya sure if were still in 5th grade

i saw 20 M.atta gloves the other day (in windia FM) and your weapons are way better 180+ m.att staff oreven 200+ if perfect scroled

I still don't understand why people insist on calling Magician classes "weak". They're the most original (The original 3 classes I.E: F/P, I/L, Bishop) class out of all the classes if you ask me, and I guess pirates follow shortly after.

I plan on making a F/P magician soon, regardless of what other people think of them. "Lulz u so weak, get out of lhc i dun want 2 train wit u" Alright Mr.E-thug, you can go ahead and train with your groupie of DPS/DPM wh0r3s.

LOL This is the guy who bragged about ksing people at BF

the skills of mage attacks are weaker to begin with.
Also, although they may have stronger attack gloves, we as mages have access to Magic Attack Earrings (there are no weapon attack earrings)
Also, our Purple Adventurer Capes come with 8 Magic Attack Clean, which can be chaosed to big numbers like PaCs
However, I still agree 100% with your point since less people play mage characters, there will be less godly items available to all mages, making us a weaker class in general.

What you need to know is that Big Bang overhauled the magic damage system COMPLETELY. The old formula was complex and difficult to understand, based more off of INT than MATK. As a result, mages strived for pure INT gear (since each point of INT gave 1 MATK). After Big Bang, it has been simplified to simply reflect the physical jobs. MATK runs thru the same calculations as ATK, with constant values for staff or wand, with INT and LUK functioning as other jobs' main and secondary stats do. That's why mages now have damage ranges shows on their stats. It calculates it the same way as all other jobs, just replacing ATK with MATK.

Also, the thing I am most disappointed in is how nerf'd bishops were, will continue to be, and even thru Jump it seems they just get nerf'd further into the ground. Bishops have no means of training on their own anymore. The best they can do is HS a LHC and add some chip damage with AR. I passed my bishop's equips to a BaM 28 levels lower, and he has already caught up in damage. (speaking of BaM, who thinks I/L copying chains is lame?) As far as mages go, AM get all the buffs to catch up to BaM and Evan, while bish sits with NOTHING and rots.

[quote=wierdo1111]Once your factor in the funness mages rise above all.[/quote]

I got bored. =D

MAGICIAN TO THIEF(CLAW) COMPARISON

To calculate how much max damage you get for one stat:
(4 x multiplier x total attack)/100 = 1 point of primary stat

Next you factor in two things,
1)At level 60 for both jobs, the avg attack of a weapon for use as a base/starting point. [60 for magician, 30 for thief]
2)For every 10 levels, the increase in base attack of the weapon. [10/10 for magician, 4/10 for thief]

This gives us the following equations:
For thief- y=(4x1.75(x+4/10x+30))/100
For magician- y=(4x1(x+75+10/10x))/100

Graph the two and you will find that they intersect at (50,7).
This means that within 50 levels, the two jobs will be at par in terms of damage range (1 point = 7 dmg).
This only applies if both jobs use equal avg weapons.

Plugging in 50 for x gives us the following for both jobs for total attack, 175 for magician and 100 for thief.
This means that up until a total of 175matk, a magician has an advantage of increasing their damage range over a thief. Once a thief hits a total of 100 atk, the rate at which their damage range increases for every 1 w.atk is greater than a magicians.

Now, since we established that at level 110 (60 initial base + the 50 from the intersection of graphs), these jobs will be at equals, let us look at other forms of easily accessible attack bonuses.

BoF's and Empress's Blessing +24 max
MoN(/CHTP) +10 max
Gloves for Attack/MAtk +27atk, +29matk max (not including chaos scroll factors)
Cape for Attack/MAtk +4watk,+8matk
Shoes for Attack/MAtk +2 atk max
Earrings for MAtk +21 matk max
Potential on Weapons +36 atk max
Scrolls +45 atk max
Belts +1atk, +2matk max
Throwing Stars +30

The total matk to atk attainable for any given character with maximum funding are almost equal. Even with the 20 atk or so difference, the damage differences between the two graphs are linearly considerable.

Conclusion: Mages will almost always get the shorter end of the stick with maximum funding. Although there are more factors, such as skill damage %, top/bottom vs overall armor potential, potions/buffs, innate atk bonuses from skills, mob count, and attack speed, in terms of 1v1 and most likely mobs, mages lose hands down to NL's and similar jobs alike.

Note* this is just to somewhat prove AryanKnight theory mathematically.

[quote=wierdo1111]I/L are generally one of the fastest attackers and have higher dps until 4th job then stay fast but dps drops to below other classes.[/quote]

because they don't get any new attacks worth anything, while all other classes get upgraded attacks, or buffs.

My friend's 171 Evan had 40k range, and his BaM had like 20k range at 135 now, Mages are OP.

[quote=KnownToOwn]I don't think you guys are completely getting the TS's point. (Although he should have emphasized it earlier)

I think the main argument here is that other classes have the potential to be extremely godly if they have billions of funding while mages on the other hand would not be as godly due to the lack of items able to upgrade and as brought up eariler, the low multiplier.

So basically an decently funded mage is close in damage to many other classes, but a highly funded mage is weak in comparison to another highly funded class.

The community always takes a video of they see of a highly funded character and sets that as the image of that class. So when they see a non-magician class dealing loads of damage, they assume that job is godly. When they see a magician however, their damage is not even close, making them thing mages are weak.

Hope this makes sense.[/quote]

i got the point, however, it's wrong :X what makes mages weak is that:

even though they are the class that can get the most attack, their multiplier doesn't help them at all to do more damage, a viper and the other pirate (can't remember the name) has less equip choices than a mage, because they can't even equip shields, however, they deal much more damage, this is for starters, because of the much better weapon multiplier.

not only that, their attacks require no charging time, while mages need to charge BB for it to deal good numbers, also, mage attacks are generally slower, and hit less times, while also not having good %skill multiplier. this is what makes mages weak, not the amount of equip or m.attk they can get.

@wierdo1111: read the thread title of the thread i posted
EDIT:
mine is probably the correct one, from southperru:
http://www.southperru.net/showthread.php?t=31480

[quote=wierdo1111] You gotta be quick.[/quote]

i was checking to see if someone had already posted it before.
but i got different multipliers, you sure those are correct?

http://www.sleepywood.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1661833

dunno which ones are the good ones, but the point still stands, mage multipliers suck.

[quote=wierdo1111]mages have lowest attack multipliers
01 ONE_HAND_SWORD : 1.10,
02 ONE_HAND_AXE : 1.10,
03 ONE_HAND_BLUNT : 1.10,
04 TWO_HAND_SWORD : 1.29,
05 TWO_HAND_AXE : 1.27,
06 TWO_HAND_BLUNT : 1.27,
07 SPEAR : 1.49,
08 POLEARM : 1.49,
09 WAND : 0.88,
10 STAFF : 0.88,
11 BOW : 1.15,
12 CROSSBOW : 1.35,
13 CLAW : 2.00,
14 DAGGER : 1.30,
15 GUN : 1.60,
16 KNUCKLER : 1.70

straight from ayumilove[/quote]

goddarn, you beat me to it

[quote=Fuzzy]I got 10 int, 2 luk, 2 magic, 3 slot, 3 Line Epic, 6% INT gloves for 275m and I passed up 3 other pairs with 6% INT 3 Line Epic for 250-300m in the week before i bought these
With my current stats, my gloves added 818 range, your's added 104 more for a total of 922.

Mine can be cubed for better stats (9% on unique compared to 6% for unique on yours) and scrolled more (I assume yours are 0 slot u/h)... The reason the Glitters were so expensive are because of the iTCG factor, low level requirement, looks, and ability to be used on a luckless.[/quote]

or the fact that they come with zero matk in the first place and were the only ones ive seen in the fm for the past 4 months as anything close to them, they give me more range than my 9% int reverse gloves which are now SE mule gloves.

[quote=ihafuf]Im 13, I understood everything...

What I would say why mages are weak is that they are basically support class.[/quote]

Yeah, because I/L, F/P, and Evans are support classes, despite the fact that they [i]pretty much[/i] have no support at all (party buffs...)

Didn't read it btw. I don't really care about matk. I don't know why people bother trying to understand how ANYTHING works in MS. It's a game. Its meant to be played, not torn apart and analyzed. Nice graph though.

[quote=Fuzzy]Flamekeepers are only like 150m for an 8 magic. I sure hope those 8 magic came with like 9% INT too otherwise you got ripped off.[/quote]

dey were glittler gloves 10 int 8 matk epic 4% int 2L

@AryanKnight: on mardia, i saw a few weeks ago a 6m.att cape for 60mil.

Either u got mega scammed. Or you're crazy and got scammed. Or youre lying cuz i dunno y a lvl 168 cant aford better than an 8m.att or windias economy sux ball bagz

@civet my main point is about how regular classes can benefit from att alot more than mages can, not about comparing prices of thier items.

[quote=jord013]@PinkTiamat: no, an 8 att cape will cost in excess of 600m, an 8m.att cape will cost less than 150m. Generally, everything for magicians is alot cheaper than stuff for all the other classes because it is such a minority.[/quote]

and i just bought a 8 matk glove for 650 mil vs a 8 att glove for what 60mil? is going to benefit them 10x more.

@PinkTiamat: no, an 8 att cape will cost in excess of 600m, an 8m.att cape will cost less than 150m. Generally, everything for magicians is alot cheaper than stuff for all the other classes because it is such a minority.

[quote=civet]This graph seems completely arbitrary, with no proper reasoning shown.[/quote]

it is from personal experience and basic knowledge, a visual interpretation of my feelings on the subject

[quote=AlexZ0123]MATK Shoes? wat.[/quote]

Some sort of mage shoes(Sandals or something?) Have magic attack on it.

@jord013 correct but matk is less value than att

[quote=youngwon]what's the graph proving.[/quote]

its to show how mages arent weak by default but because they are crippled when it comes to funding them.

[quote=AryanKnight]this is my hypothesis on mages dps vs all others dps. first off, id like to note that i have extensive experience with all classes and combinations of skills and other things relevant. its not that mages are weak, because they are not. most of us have seen the "DPS" charts when we got bigbang patch, these were somewhat controversial because of thier sources but basicly these charts were made up of evenly funded classes and compared on various monsters such as snails zakum or pinkbean. if anyone remembers correctly both archmages were placed right above the middle of the list(#6-7 out of 18). also the difference between the first place being corsair and the class in last place(exluding bishops and cygnus) was about 40%, between 17 classes (exluding bishop and cygnus) so not really a big difference when counting in personal funding on a particular class. as we all know mages have a stereotype of being weak, i can say first that this stereotype is damaging to the class so it impacts on wether or not new players would likely choose this class. this results in noobs actually being the only ones who choose this class and respresent it to be true. and on the other side nightlords have a stereotype of being the strongest, this however is not true (nightlords were placed on the bottom tier on every chart released to the public) but the result of PRO players choosing NL and funding them enough to feed a small village in africa. theoretically you could put perfect gear on the worst default dps class and make him the best dps in your world, however with mages its different. as most of you could tell attk points greatly increase a classes damage vs matk on mages. which is why mages are crippled when put against another class with the same amount of funding when you get over acouple billion. regular classes have access to items like glove for att whereas mages do not have this equivalent(this also applies to other items). so we end up with a thief that has a 20 att~ glove when the mage has a 10 int glove which is equivalent to 1-2 matk. here is a visual chart on how i see it; http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e108/CODYSCHUYLER/chart.jpg

share with me your thoughts.

edit* its just even if a mage has unlimited funding they have a roof of potential that comes 10x earlyer than regular classes. cuz lets face its how many 27 matk gloves have u seen? how many 20+ matk shoes have u seen? capes?[/quote]
not only do mages have access to m,att equips, they can get it on more equips than w.att. AND its usualy cheaper than w.att scrolled equips so NYUH!

[quote=Jarretboyle]Pre-BB this would be correct, however this is post-bb which makes it not correct 1 mattk=like 3 int now[/quote]

i guess. i haven't touched a mage class since version 0.26 lol. either way 10 int is still more than 1-2 m. atk.

It would be helpful to make use of multiple paragraphs to help break up that block of text.

Anyway, the reason why mages are weaker is the delay in their attacks and the fact that a ton of bosses are ele-resistant.
Chaos patch should dramatically improve their damage.

Your noob vs pro argument is kinda silly. I see plenty of very funded mages.

1 m.atk = 1 int so what you're saying makes no sense.

[quote=Fuzzy][url=http://www.basilmarket.com/MapleStory-item-Scroll-for-Gloves-for-INT-30--2379.html]And you were[/url] [url=http://www.basilmarket.com/MapleStory-item-Scroll-for-Gloves-for-INT-70--2380.html]doing so good too... [/url]... on second thought, no you weren't.

Might I also remind you of Earring INT scrolls vs Earring STR/DEX/LUK and the amount of shoes/gloves that come with Magic attack versus shoes/gloves that come with weapon attack? How about purple capes anyone?[/quote]

precisely matk items are cheap because there is less demand. but also matk has less than half the use as att does.

its just even if a mage has unlimited funding they have a roof of potential that comes 10x earlyer than regular classes

[quote=Fuzzy][url=http://www.basilmarket.com/MapleStory-item-Scroll-for-Gloves-for-INT-30--2379.html]And you were[/url] [url=http://www.basilmarket.com/MapleStory-item-Scroll-for-Gloves-for-INT-70--2380.html]doing so good too... [/url]... on second thought, no you weren't.

Might I also remind you of Earring INT scrolls vs Earring STR/DEX/LUK and the amount of shoes/gloves that come with Magic attack versus shoes/gloves that come with weapon attack? How about purple capes anyone?[/quote]

I believe he means that these items aren't as abundantly scrolled as gloves for attack.

Anyways, I read it, and from what I remember of it, basically you are saying damage is dependent on funding? Which is obvious.

[quote=AlexZ0123]MATK Shoes? wat.[/quote]
pretty much all lv 70+ mage shoes if u actually look at it lol

[quote=epikdeath]big . .so many words . .
could not finish reading. .[/quote]

Im 13, I understood everything...

What I would say why mages are weak is that they are basically support class.

This is actually pretty close. Mage damage is pretty much completely linear, while everyone else's damage is exponential.

EDIT: also, Nexon is quite aware that 1 matk < 1 watk, which is why stuff that gives both tends to give twice as much matk. Scrolls that raise matk don't raise it any more than scrolls that raise watk raise that.

k i actually read it this time F555
when u think about it
mages got access to magic attack earings
more availibility of magic attack shoes
higher magic attack weapons
stuff like that . .

massive brick of wall

what's the graph proving.

[quote=epikdeath]big . .so many words . .
could not finish reading. .[/quote]

well i put alot of thought into it and tried to explain myself clearly which im inevitably bad at in any situation.

I'm unsure how many int gives magic attack.
Gloves that are scrolled with magic attack are soooo expensive.

Btw, I don't know what question to answer o_o

big . .so many words . .
could not finish reading. .