General

I really enjoy the fact you went into such detail. Really making me happy about switching. Now to locate a sword and secondary.

Dam, you guys really went off in this thread

[quote=simfel]Nice catch; now I need to know how to reproduce it when I'm testing things...

Went to Horntail and casted a Wing Beat on top of his first head. It hit 48 times in a little over 14s, which equates to about 300ms (rounded up from 291.66 since the time was rounded down) between attacks. Plugging it into the sheet, I get [url=http://i.imgur.com/kLatpMq.png]a 10 hit/s difference with Ryudes[/url].
[/quote]

Whew, great -- now it looks a lot more accurate. After accounting for more Cursebite procs, it should be easily over 40hps for 100% Ryudes, which makes sense.

[quote=ievanmaster]Edit: Actually, looking back at your recent Empress vid, if you look closely you can see the red flashes that show Cursebite activating. That should be indication of Wingbeat activating Cursebite, unless you think that Gigas Wave causes that many activations, especially during the times when you're recasting Wingbeat. I think 0:55-0:56 shows it the best, I couldn't find more than a second at most where you stopped casting Gigas.[/quote]

Nice catch; now I need to know how to reproduce it when I'm testing things...

[quote=ievanmaster]The only reason I can come up with for Ryudes seeming weaker than it is in reality (I doubt they give only a hps increase of ~5...) is that Wingbeat's delay between attacks is faster than 720, and that 720 is the casting delay of the tornado itself? That's the best I can come up with...[/quote]

Went to Horntail and casted a Wing Beat on top of his first head. It hit 48 times in a little over 14s, which equates to about 300ms (rounded up from 291.66 since the time was rounded down) between attacks. Plugging it into the sheet, I get [url=http://i.imgur.com/kLatpMq.png]a 10 hit/s difference with Ryudes[/url].

[quote=lordpsych]why fast (2) over fastest (0)? o:[/quote]

What I meant earlier by
[quote=simfel]The sheet uses Fast (2) to simulate the sustainable conditions.[/quote]
was that (2) was chosen because:
1. Kaisers don't have a reliable way to keep attack speed at (0) for extended amounts of time; Majesty only takes effect 33% of the time, and MPE potions have to be acquired on a different character.
2. It is not uncommon for players (who would care about this extent of detail) to have either +1 IA or DSI.

I can easily change the speed to (0) and post a photo of it, if you'd like it for reference ^_^

[quote=simfel]I can confirm that Cursebite and Tempest Blades are not affect by Ryudes, sadly. The sheet uses Fast (2) to simulate the sustainable conditions.

Thanks, please feel free to PM if you get around to the tests ^_^[/quote]

from my tests it seems that gigas wave and wingbeat each scale down to 450ms per cast at (0) attack speed, I recorded myself casting wingbeat and gigas wave and counted frame by frame in sony vegas the amount of time my character was stuck in the casting animation

also uhh why fast (2) over fastest (0)? o:

[quote=simfel]I can confirm that Cursebite and Tempest Blades are not affect by Ryudes, sadly. The sheet uses Fast (2) to simulate the sustainable conditions.
Thanks, please feel free to PM if you get around to the tests ^_^[/quote]

Check my edit, I added something just right before you posted. (Damn you, you've failed me, ninja skills! )

The only reason I can come up with for Ryudes seeming weaker than it is in reality (I doubt they give only a hps increase of ~5...) is that Wingbeat's delay between attacks is faster than 720, and that 720 is the casting delay of the tornado itself? That's the best I can come up with...

[quote=ievanmaster]I... [i]think[/i] that Cursebite and Tempest Blades is affected by Ryudes, but I can't say for sure because those things are one of, if not the rarest item in the game... I also think that Giga's delay is faster than 540ms, because according to [url=http://www.southperry.net/showthread.php?t=61931]southperry extractions[/url], it appears that the base delay is 720, or 450ms at fast (0) and 510ms at fast (1). Unless of course, you're calculating for (fast 2).[/quote]

I can confirm that Cursebite and Tempest Blades are not affect by Ryudes, sadly. The sheet uses Fast (2) to simulate the sustainable conditions.

[quote=ievanmaster]As for the Wingbeat not triggering Cursebite, I'll do some testing on my own when I'm bored enough to log in on maple. Back when I mained kaiser, I remember Wingbeat activating Cursebite, but not when I stacked multiple Wingbeats. Maybe something changed since then, so I'll see if I can reproduce the steps to trigger it.[/quote]

Thanks, please feel free to PM if you get around to the tests ^_^

I... [i]think[/i] that Cursebite and Tempest Blades is affected by Ryudes, but I can't say for sure because those things are one of, if not the rarest item in the game... I also think that Giga's delay is faster than 540ms, because according to [url=http://www.southperry.net/showthread.php?t=61931]southperry extractions[/url], it appears that the base delay is 720, or 450ms at fast (0) and 510ms at fast (1). Unless of course, you're calculating for (fast 2).

Tempest Blades hits/sec may also be a bit lower than what it is on your chart, but only due the fact that the swords don't immediately deal damage until about two seconds after you activate them, in addition to the 90ms delay to summon them in the first place -- and not to mention server lag increasing the cooldown to about 11-12secs.
...But it's hard to take that into account when calculating, because it's a pain to quantify those inconsistent values, so not a big deal.

Other than that, it feels weird that Ryude's Sword only gives 5 hits/sec according to your chart... but I can't see anything else that seems incorrect.

As for the Wingbeat not triggering Cursebite, I'll do some testing on my own when I'm bored enough to log in on maple. Back when I mained kaiser, I remember Wingbeat activating Cursebite, but not when I stacked multiple Wingbeats. Maybe something changed since then, so I'll see if I can reproduce the steps to trigger it.

Edit: Actually, looking back at your recent Empress vid, if you look closely you can see the red flashes that show Cursebite activating. That should be indication of Wingbeat activating Cursebite, unless you think that Gigas Wave causes that many activations, especially during the times when you're recasting Wingbeat. I think 0:55-0:56 shows it the best, I couldn't find more than a second at most where you stopped casting Gigas.

@ievanmaster:

[quote=ievanmaster]Erm, please check the numbers again, because there's no way in hell that Tempest Blades has a constant hits/sec of more than 20.[/quote]

You're right! After looking at the sheet again, I realized I took the 10s cooldown into account on the wrong column; I had Tempest Blades being used with a delay of 90ms but at 1/10 damage/s, instead of being able to be used every 10s. The [url=http://i.imgur.com/1OtD32T.png]fix applied[/url] was to make the delay 10s(cooldown)+90ms(activation) with removal of the 1/10 factor. Is this an accurate (sufficient) representation, or is there a better way to patch it up?

[quote=ievanmaster]...try putting Cursebite on a mob, and cast wingbeat one time and walking around. It should activate, but when you stack three wingbeats you should notice the red "final attack" flashes will stop appearing.[/quote]

Tried it on bosses and monsters with 1,2,3 Wing Beats while walking around, with no luck. Is there anything specific that must be fulfilled for Cursebite to trigger on Wing Beat? (Other than Slow status of course)

[quote=simfel]I took the 10s cooldown of Tempest Blades into account[/quote]

Erm, please check the numbers again, because there's no way in hell that Tempest Blades has a constant hits/sec of more than 20.

Unless, you're aiming to depict Kaiser's dps at the exact moment that Tempest Blades hits the mob.

Sorry if I'm appearing to be obtrusive...
~~~
[quote=simfel]and omitted Cursebite for Wing Beat since I haven't seen it ever trigger on bosses.[/quote]
This is understandable, because as I've already mentioned, Wingbeat and Cursebite's interaction is pretty weird and isn't constant, but to see that it can activate on occasion, try putting Cursebite on a mob, and cast wingbeat one time and walking around. It should activate, but when you stack three wingbeats you should notice the red "final attack" flashes will stop appearing.

[quote=ievanmaster]Tempest Blades has a cooldown though, and Cursebite triggers for Wingbeat (Albeit in a weird fashion, it's on and off which I suspect to be so because stacking wingbeat makes too many procs in a short period of time and the game treats that weirdly, causing it to not trigger cursebite on every hit. I suspect BMs also have this same problem as well, coupled with many other glitches that exacerbate this issue for them, making their actual dps lower than it is on paper.)

Judging from bossing videos, I estimate Kaiser's hits per second without Ryudes to be about ~20-~30, and with the un-nerfed Ryudes, 35-45. There is a range of 10 is because timing the wingbeats as well as tempest blades is crucial. Invinci-frames really screw kaisers over because the wingbeats will move out of range causing the player to have to recast them.
No too many videos with the 70% Ryudes unfortunately, probably around 30-38 hits/s for that.[/quote]

I took the 10s cooldown of Tempest Blades into account, and omitted Cursebite for Wing Beat since I haven't seen it ever trigger on bosses.

[quote=Simfel][url=http://i.imgur.com/Cg76GZV.png]Calculations I did a while ago.[/url]

With two Wing Beats active, kaisers easily achieve 47 lines per second.[/quote]

Tempest Blades has a cooldown though, and Cursebite triggers for Wingbeat (Albeit in a weird fashion, it's on and off which I suspect to be so because stacking wingbeat makes too many procs in a short period of time and the game treats that weirdly, causing it to not trigger cursebite on every hit. I suspect BMs also have this same problem as well, coupled with many other glitches that exacerbate this issue for them, making their actual dps lower than it is on paper.)

Judging from bossing videos, I estimate Kaiser's hits per second without Ryudes to be about ~20-~30, and with the un-nerfed Ryudes, 35-45. There is a range of 10 is because timing the wingbeats as well as tempest blades is crucial. Invinci-frames really screw kaisers over because the wingbeats will move out of range causing the player to have to recast them.
No too many videos with the 70% Ryudes unfortunately, probably around 30-38 hits/s for that.

[quote=Chinosz]i saw this in some post a while ago, obviously with the dragon and the tornado do they actually hit 43 hits per second? o.o o.o o.o o.o o.o[/quote]

[url=http://i.imgur.com/Cg76GZV.png]Calculations I did a while ago.[/url]

With two Wing Beats active, kaisers easily achieve 47 lines per second.

think of it this way. you cast Tornado in less than a second. it'll then proceed to do 40 seconds. so the effective Hits/s is 40/cast time even if it's physically attacking slower than that

[quote=Endurance]no your thinking about phantom with +1 inner ability[/quote]

I'm pretty sure att speed doesn't affect milles nor arrow platter(or any skills of that nature). I'm pretty sure they only affect the original cast delay

[quote=Chinosz]i saw this in some post a while ago, obviously with the dragon and the tornado do they actually hit 43 hits per second? o.o o.o o.o o.o o.o[/quote]

no your thinking about phantom with +1 inner ability

with ryude's

kaiser are the slowest and worst bossers in the game fakboi