General

[quote=Clericase]@crazygama: The reason I argue that point is because you dogmatically claimed that meat eating is unnatural and proceeded to use sources which have little to no scientific merit/relation to that point. Furthermore, your statement that we're genetically identical is also incorrect. While the makeup of the genetic code is vastly similar, minor amounts of changes to the actual genome can produce significant differences. Most of the "junk" DNA is the same, but there are enough changes in the actual "coding" DNA that make us a different species. All genetic variation in humans is determined by 1-2% of the entire genomic code, the rest of the genome has no known effect. Both of the species which were our immediate ancestors ( H. heidelbergensis and H. Erectus) hunted and ate meat. To argue that we aren't genetically different from those species is simply absurd; they were vastly different even though the genetic code was similar (which means little outside of confirming an evolutionary link, we have 95% similarity in genomic structure with monkeys and somewhere around 60% similarly with fruit flies ). The capability to eat meat was not an "adaption" (that would imply we didn't develop the ability till we were H. Sapiens) as you call it, it was an evolutionary development (as it was a trait present in an earlier species in the evolutionary timeline that became more effective in the next generation of species).

Even if we were genetically identical, our bodies can process meat extremely effectively without needing any sort of synthetic assistance. Eating meat does not kill us. Therefore, it's natural.

There's a reason why the only people who claim that eating meat is "unnatural" are animal rights activists. It's simply not backed by science or evolutionary historians.

-

As for a moral/ethics argument, I don't comply with the assumptions that he makes about my moral character (using Kohlberg's theory of moral development, I probably fall somewhere between stage 2-3). My actions are often based on self-interest. I eat meat because of the fact that it makes nutrition convenient for me and it makes life significantly easier for me (much easier to get a full meal at dining commons). Going vegetarian/vegan provides little to no benefit to me, so therefore I don't inconvenience myself with it.[/quote]

hi, sorry for the late reply.

I'm sorry, but I'm kind of bored with this conversation. I'm a vegan for ethical reasons, and only that.

but for the discussion we had going, I had made this thread on reddit.

[url=http://www.reddit.com/r/vegan/comments/14rl6x/hi_reddit_can_you_help_me_with_this_guy/]here[/url]

please read through it, its interesting as those people are like 10x smarter than I am (you even got a group of vegans arguing w/ each other and that's saying something lol)

[b]please please PLEASE tell me what you think of what they've said. I'm curious.[/b]

Other than that, I dont think this'll last as those people in the link beat both of us to every possible argument, so I'll see ya I guess.

[quote=Clericase]Humans eat what's available to them. I was refuting his claim that eating meat is unnatural.

But more to your point, I just find the theory that there are evolutionary similarities to other herbivores/carnivores/omnivores as a stupid argument because there's so many unique aspects in human evolutionary history that got us to where we were.

Unlike other carnivores which needed razor fangs, claws, and extreme speeds to catch their prey, we circumvented that evolutionary necessity entirely through our ability to communicate and fashion tools and traps.

As for the digestive tracts (assuming we were herbivores before, didn't research that feel no need to), it makes a lot more evolutionary sense to evolve capabilities to digest and process meat while maintaining the similarity to the original herbivorous digestive tract. Developing the enzymes to give certain areas of the digestive tract the capabilities to effectively digest meat makes a lot more sense then significantly decreasing the energy taken from plants to get a specialized carnivore digestive tract when humans were consistently eating both types of foods.

It's like a software update. Say you have version 3.0 of a software, and you want to add a small feature that could have been implemented into v1.0. Would you code the feature to work with 3.0 and just release it as an updated 3.1? Or do you downgrade it to 1.0, add the feature, then recode it to 3.0? This is the reason why I find the intestinal tract argument so stupid. A herbivorous digestive system has a lot more moving parts and is significantly more complex than a carnivorous digestive tract (as plants are significantly more difficult to digest than meat). It's much easier for a herbivorous digestive tract to evolve into an effective omnivore digestive tract by developing enzymes or a small organ than the other way around (while we're able to effectively digest both meat and plants, carnivore->omnivore species such as bears digest vegetables extremely inefficiently).

What do all the similarities tell me? That man's digestive tract evolved from a herbivore->omnivore species in the way that made the most sense. We can eat both types of food and subsist solely on one or the other if need be. Regardless, we're not one or the other, we're omnivores

@crazygama: I have nothing too add in terms of argument to my last 2 posts. However, you do need to work on finding better sources.[/quote]

hi I'm back :]

ok well you keep going back to that word "evolve". You keep saying that humans have evolved from our ancestors. that our body has physiologically changed and now we are omnivores.

the fact is. Our bodies are genetically identical to that of our ancient ancestors. if you need I'll look for a link on that later.

our ancestors (as you have agreed in your above post) were herbivorous. Our bodies have not genetically proceed from that since then. We've just become adapted and we've taken on the new niche of omnivore.

ok. now.

my original thread was about veganism. Not our history but the way it is now. Today.

[url=http://www.uta.edu/philosophy/faculty/burgess-jackson/Engel,%20The%20Immorality%20of%20Eating%20Meat%20(2000).pdf]Here[/url] is an incredible 30 some page piece on veganism that was very influential to me when I first read it (it was one of the few thing that convinced me to become who I am today)

Here is a pretty good tldr I found on reddit the other day:

"It starts with some assumptions:
A world with less pain and suffering is better than a world with more.
A world with less unnecessary pain and suffering is better than a world with more.
(Optional) We ought to take steps to make the world a better place.
We ought to do what we reasonably can to make the world a better place.
We ought to do what we can reasonably can to avoid making the world a worse place.
A morally good person will take steps to make the world a better place and stronger steps to avoid making the world a worse place.
Even a minimally decent person will take steps to avoid making the world a worse place if it can be accomplished with low effort.
The reader believes they are at least a minimally decent person.
Furthermore:
The reader believes that animals (and least vertebrates) are capable of experiencing morally relevant pain.
It is morally wrong to treat animals inhumanely for no good reason.
He also touches on efficiency and that people generally believe it to be a good thing to leave resources for future generates and such.
The rest is spent proving that typical farming practices do in fact result in suffering and eschewing the use of animal products is something that can be accomplished with low effort and little/no detrimental effect."

do me a favor and skim through it. I know its totally different from the discussion we were having, but this thread has long gone off topic and I'd like to turn it back to the right direction.

There are multiple ways in which a person can sustain themselves nutritionally while abstaining from certain foodstuffs.

You could live off of water, soybeans and salt and be perfectly fine.

Some dishes taste perfectly fine even without any sort of meat.

@Clericase: hey, I'm sorry. I just really busy now a days. I dont have time to sustain this conversation. I'll get back to this thread in a week, till then just add more of your beliefs so it doesnt tell me that I cant post 2x in a row

I don't care if you're a vegan, but you are being very imposing.

"There's a reason why most veggies are preachy. Its not based on belief. Its based on what is reality."

[b]It's based on a belief[/b].

The beliefs are a questionable set of morals that happen to conflict due to the [b]reality[/b] of things going on. You could say the same with just about any belief.

"There is a reason why most Christians are preachy. It's not based on a belief. It's based on what is reality."
"There is a reason why most politicians are preachy. It's not based on a belief. It's based on what is reality."
"There is a reason why most teachers are preachy. It's not based on a belief. It's based on what is reality."

It is [b]your[/b] belief based on [b]your[/b] reality. You validating the belief based on your own morals doesn't make it the same reality with equal amounts of moral deficiencies to everyone else.

@MagiBombchu:1st point, agreed.

2nd point: this is about factory farming once again. Factory farming is far from natural.

Honestly vegan diets suck just because it's so damn inconvenient to lift and have to deal with all the disadvantages of veganism. That and I don't give a crap about stupid animals being eaten or their hides being used (srs)

@Clericase: I'm not sure what you didnt understand from my first post but it was essentially saying modern humans have existed since 200k years ago. But were past that now. So lets move on.

ok. So I read the article. It was honestly pretty interesting. If we had to live like that, we could. There are some tough people out there.

So I think I get what you're arguing. We humans can survive on an all meat diet BUT because of that, there is no way in hell that our bodies are anatomically vegan. Well now we're back to the beginning. Lets try another article shall we. how's this one. http://www.celestialhealing.net/physicalveg3.htm read through it, skim it if you wish and then we'll continue.

cus honestly I dont like trying up walls of text. Just read that for now lol.

also side note, there are vegan pet cats and dogs. annd many species of bear would rather survive on vegetation than meat. but that's me digressing again.

@clericase: http://anthro.palomar.edu/homo2/mod_homo_4.htm we are a single human species. Yes genetic variation exists, but not enough to suggest evolution. Forgive me for the 5000 years ago part.

Also, all you are arguing here is for an all meat diet. Great. You can live. But I dont know how you are claiming you get ALL required nutrients? Are you forgetting potassium, fiber, folic acid, vitamin A, and vitamin C just to name a few? Meat contains none or very little of any of those, and they are pretty darn important.

A vegan diet contains EVERYTHING you need.

ok. next.

Nature is an unguided process. Agreed.

But through it our bodies are herbivorous. We have learned to adapt and eat meat. That's all.

@Clericase: from a biological perspective, are you claiming that we have evolved from 5000 years ago during the ice age? Are we a different species? No. We arent. We have leaned to consume meat in a healthy manor, and we have essentially become omnivores as a species. That doesn't mean that our bodies are naturally omnivores.

You say that humans can live an a pure meat diet. But you also acknowledge that they will have some differences.

Let me just point out that nutrition as a whole is just a collection of types of molecules that builds anatomy and the building blocks of life. There isnt that much variety in types of nutrition required, the source is your choice. Some animals have processing capebilites that can extract what they need from what nature intended their diets to be. Cows can digest grass, plants live off the sun, water and nutrition from the soil, lions dont necessarily benefit from fiber as they poop out pellets and in clumps, etc.

Our bodies are the same. They have a minimal list of types of nutrients they need, many of which are found in amimals. Fantastic. So we'll survive the next time an ice age comes. But we wont get EVERYTHING we need from just a animal based diet. Hence, we are now omnivores. We as a species have learned to live on a diet of animals and plants.

Now you already saw his video: nature intended us to survive on just plants. He didnt just compare us to carnivores, he included omnivores as well. You argued against his eccentricities, which in my case are just stupid facts, but you chose to include all the other things he had stated. We were made to eat just plants. ALL our nutrients are found in plants, our body is designed to access those nutrients.

Pure meat is stupid. We understand that, possible, but stupid. Biological and physiologically unnatural. Omnivore: result of years of pure vegan than pure meat combine after ice age where we both hunt and farm to survive. We could have abandoned meat at that point, it was just easier, and what we had become used to. Still biological and physiologically unnatural.And that's what we've stuck with. Now humanity has taken it to a totally different level. We have developed factory farming, and the realities are harsh. And hence the new vegan movement.

TLTR: meat-eating: possible but biologically unnatural.

@MagiBombchu: I would love if animals grew up that way. I'd probably eat meat as well (death is not painless, but it can be quick, so not gonna pick on you for that), or at least consider it.

The emotional aspect is that what people see of meat is that hunk in front of a deli counter, nice cute cut and clean. Unfortunately it was never nice at any point in the process before it. Factory farming has taken the emotional aspect out of food. How many people do you know that go out kill, cut clean, and process their own meat, and that too without using what are essentially ak-47s (the modern hunting industry claims it gets closer to nature by doing this, saying they feel like they are putting themselves again into the chain of live by killing their own animal, but for that you need to be fair. Even the freggin modern bows and arrows are impossible to be escape, the guns are a totally different story).

Ok sorry, I digress.

But I hope you get what I'm saying.

@FloorMagnet look at this: http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/ so yes you can.

I am a college bound athlete, I play football. No way could I keep up what I do being a vegan.

[quote=Clericase]Your "eating meat is unnatural" theory is completely stupid.

It's unnatural for herbivores to eat meat. Their digestive systems are incapable of breaking down meat and they would die in weeks if you fed them an all meat or heavy meat diet. Just because humans don't need meat to live, doesn't mean that our bodies can't naturally handle it. The body is more than capable of breaking down meat and extracting the nutrients within. Humans have incisors, canine teeth, and molars; an indication that we're supposed to be able to ingest both meat and vegetables.

Furthermore, it's more than possible for a human to subsist on almost a pure meat diet alone, and we've known that since as early as 1930 because of Vilhjalmur Stefansson. In addition to living among Eskimos who have an almost completely meat diet for large parts of the year, he volunteered for a medical study where he ate nothing but meat for a year with absolutely NO vitamin supplementation. If it's unnatural for humans to eat meat, he along with the Eskimos would've died like a cow or a sheep, animals that are actual herbivores.

http://www.vrg.org/nutshell/omni.htm-basic summation of why we're omnivores
http://www.jbc.org/content/87/3/651.full.pdf-study on Vilhjalmur Stefansson's diet

You wonder why people hate on vegans/vegetarians? It's because you guys come up with stupid, delusional arguments such as "meat is unnatural".[/quote]

did you read the link I provided? here:http://cnr.berkeley.edu/miltonlab/pdfs/meateating.pdf

or, watch 00:27:00 - 00:31:00 of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es6U00LMmC4 this video (cmon, you've got 4 minutes dont you?) for a simplified answer.

[b]It is not natural for a human to eat meat[/b]. Possible? Yes. But same goes for a horse eating a steak, he can eat it and digest it and take in some of the nutrients, but that doesnt make it natural.

EDIT: ignore the title of that video. I'm not a huge fan of that guy, he's kind of crazy vegan, but he makes some points and simplifies it down for people to undersand, so worth noting.

@Spellbooks: there is no comprehension of pain. no where near the level of that of animals.

what are you trying to argue here?

@uiluj4: @Spellbooks: 1st off, I dont think YOU've read that, as I have.

2nd off, what does this have to do with personal beliefs? This isnt God we're talking about (he's fantastic by the way, as long as you believe in him), this is anatomy. For physical pain to register, there has to be a sensory structure, which plants lack entirely. The closest thing they have to that is a chemical reaction system that's isolated in each individual part of the plant. for example, why dont the leaves of a plant all fall off at once? its because the leaves are in essence their own organ/system, they fall off when they want to, not when the plant itself wants to. Pain is nothing like that.

And I just googled "plants feel pain" once again. Try reading some of the articles, they argue against the point that its not belief.

@MagiBombchu: this is about pain and suffering. Life and death happens at its own course whether it is at the hands of a human or not. Nature did not create a system of factory farming, but prey vs predator.

We have taken the emotional aspect out of food, we have taken the reality out of what goes onto our plates. This is about pain. Not death.

Honestly, do you hear yourself?

[url=http://img7.joyreactor.com/pics/post/funny-pictures-auto-vegan-vegan-broccoli-365247.jpeg]Ahem[/url]

@Spellbooks: actually, it has been proven. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/15/science/15food.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

one of many viable sources. Ask me for more if you wish.

@MagiBombchu: It has survival awareness yes. It can react to its environment, and has sensors to detect danger. But it has no nervous system, or anything of the sort. There is no pain involved. There is no reality of life and death. There are plants that literally die, and come back to life.

Now animals are just like humans. Not gonna get into it, but yes, they feel pain, they understand death, they have a scene of attachment and a comprehension of reality.

and @childsplay meat eating is, in fact, not natural for humans. Tell me why you think so otherwise.

[quote=crazygama]Meat eating is not natural for humans.[/quote]
Just stop.

@crazygama: Vegetables still taste like dog crap.

[quote=Spellbooks]Plants are living organisms, why are you ok with ripping them out of the ground?[/quote]

again are they sentient? pain, emotion, awareness?

@xipwnux99: obviously you didnt read the article that I posted. It clearly states that we were not born to eat meat, and it is in fact unnatural. Any animal can eat anything, its what we are born to choose, and how our body was built that defines our natural diet, a choice diet is a different thing. Plus meat is unhealthy for a human (again, read the article)

I dont know what you are claiming about killing animals for extra farm space, do you mean deforestation? If so, then yes, animals die in deforestation. By the thousands in some cases. It is truly unfortunate. Humans are so impulsive.
But the arguement is [i]1000s[/i]. But 20-40 MILLION chickens alone are killed EACH DAY for human consumption. That number is staggeringly greater than deforrestation, but thankfully due to factory farming, that has no affect on the ecology of natural chickens.

Also, of all the agricultural land in the U.S., 80 percent is used to raise animals for food and grow grain to feed them. Farming vegetables for human consumption is almost a negligible factor at this point.

you really should know what you are claiming before you proceed in a discussion...

@crazygama: It doesn't change the fact that we are omnivores. If we weren't we would have had problems with our digestion of meat. We don't need meat, but we want it. Plus, either way animals would die. If you didn't kill animals for meat you would just kill them for extra space for farming once there were too many farms. Plus we need meat since we are already overpopulated and can barely fit anymore farms at all.

So technically you can use your argument to banish meat eating from every single animal species? If you say human then why not all animals?

[quote=xipwnux99]@crazygama: Meat eating is still natural. Why should we not animals when plenty of others do? Plus, cavemen have ate meat.[/quote]

that's what I'm saying. Meat eating is not natural for humans. Everything about our body right down to its chemical behaviors screams herbivore, not omnivore

Cavemen ate it because there was no other option and they were smart enough to acquire meat.

We are no longer cavemen. We dont [i]need[/i] meat.

@crazygama: Meat eating is still natural. Why should we not animals when plenty of others do? Plus, cavemen have ate meat.

[quote=xipwnux99]Meat eating is only natural. Humans are supposed to be omnivores so we can adapt to if we don't have any vegetables or meat.[/quote]

read this.

http://cnr.berkeley.edu/miltonlab/pdfs/meateating.pdf

too long?

TLTR: You're wrong.

@crazygama: you're ignorant and inconsiderate for thinking otherwise.

I really don't care what people eat.

I'm a pescatarian and I still feel like a normal person. -shrugs-
I don't force people to be like me though, I just choose to be this way.

But rofl, there was this one time a person told me, "ay, stop being this way. it's bad for you."
I'm like, "wtf?"

[quote=xBigBang]THOSE CARROTS HAVE FAMILIES TOO
how can you just HEARTLESSLY rip them out

what if he was just settling in and having a family soon?
what if just a few hours before you monsters took him from his home, he realized that his wife was pregnant? he was preparing for a baby room... it was his dream to become a father.
do you not have shame?

please. think of the lives that you'll save by starving to death. please do so. don't destroy the lives and communities of vegetables everywhere.
#leavetheveggiesalone2012[/quote]

this is you claiming that vegetables are sentient... -_-

whatever you say bro.

I have yet to see an anti-vegan thread up until now with this one. When has it been an issue about what type of foods people eat.. Only time this became an issue is when its dealing with people eating other people. You remind me of those hella flamboyant guys that go around and have to let it be known that they're gay. Mad annoyin.

I love meat. No matter how good you cook veggies it will never be the same as meat.

Humans advanced to bawsee to only eat one type of thing. If we can kill animals and we can eat them why not? Why go through all the trouble forcing your self to eat only fruits and vegetables when you can eat all that with meat? Omnivores are better off than herbivores or carnivores. If every crop humans could eat randomly died, every animal that can eat crops we can't is now on our menu. All the other animals go extinct now everyone is a herbivore or vegan. I sadly do not have the patience to read every thing the guy wrote or watch a 1 hour and a half video on something that can be explained in a much shorter way that isn't mainly about talking about how us primates are similar to others and that we have a few differences. Especially when the start of the video talks about equality within other species that they don't care about but humans are supposed to drop everything and care for species that could purposely attack them. I don't care to start an argument since we are both obviously biased on the topic.

I think we should just start eating people; I mean, survival of the fittest, right?

I wonder what human tastes like...hmm!

I went vegetarian once and I gained weight. It was cray cray.

I do not see a need for arguing. You go on eating your vegetables and we'll go on slaughtering, though I feel bad when I think about being raised just to be killed. I'd much rather I eat food only hunted for and not food raised solely for my stomach.

THOSE CARROTS HAVE FAMILIES TOO
how can you just HEARTLESSLY rip them out

what if he was just settling in and having a family soon?
what if just a few hours before you monsters took him from his home, he realized that his wife was pregnant? he was preparing for a baby room... it was his dream to become a father.
do you not have shame?

please. think of the lives that you'll save by starving to death. please do so. don't destroy the lives and communities of vegetables everywhere.
#leavetheveggiesalone2012

Meat eating is only natural. Humans are supposed to be omnivores so we can adapt to if we don't have any vegetables or meat.

what anti-vegan threads.. all i see is the "vegetarians are immortal" thread. that's like..one.

im a nomnomnomivore