Warrior DPM comparisons post-Advance of the Union
Okay so I did some number crunching for the 5 warriors (Not counting Dawn Warriors so sorry to any Dawn Warriors) although the Demon Slayer one is not accurate at all. It is just what Demon Impact would be if it could be spammed since I had trouble figuring out how often they would have to resort to recharging Demon Force. It still serves good enough since it demonstrates where they stand in DPM comparison anyway.
Okay so some notes on what I did and did not do for these comparisons:
1) I didn't count the Demon Slayer's 10% boss damage skill since it is a linked skill and therefore any character could have it.
2) I also only did DPM% ignoring any extra attack from skills (although I did compensate for Arans and DrK having higher multiplier weapons) since there is roughly the same amount of passive attack between the 5 classes.
3) I assumed that Hero and Paladin both used 1H weapons.
4) I assumed that all classes had crit rings on. Mostly this was an accident since I am so used to my own Hero. Don't feel like redoing things.
5) Only did 1v1 comparisons so far. Not sure if I will do more.
6) Forgive me for my wall of text/numbers. I will make a less in-depth comparison at the bottom for anyone who doesn't feel like reading it all.
7) I don't think I made any mistakes but if you feel I made any mistakes feel free to point them out and I will either explain why it is not a mistake or correct it.
[header] 1v1 DPM comparisons [/header]
[b]Hero (Faster 3)[/b]: [900% (IS) + 300% (AFA)] * 2 (ACA) * 1.60(Enrage) * 1.25 (Chance Attack) * 1.075 (aproximate damage increase from crits based on them not stacking with ACA and a 35% proc rate of 135%-150% damage) * 1.45 (attacks per second with IS) * 0.85 (average damage from 70% mastery) = 6359% per second.
Clean: 40PDEF: 4833% 50PDEF: 4459% 70PDEF: 3688
W/ Leafre Set: 40PDEF: 5596% 50PDEF: 5405% 70PDEF: 5024%
W/ Leafre Set and 30%ignore on weapon: 40PDEF: 6359% 50PDEF: 6359% 70PDEF: 6359%
[b]DrK (Faster 3)[/b]: [900% (DI) + 40% (FA)] * 1.6 (Berserk) * 1.275 (average crit damage increase assuming 55% proc rate of 150% damage) * 1.25 (to represent the higher multiplier of a PA/Spear over a 1H weapon like the other warriors tend to use) * .95 (average damage from 90% mastery) * 1.45 (attacks per second with DI) = 3302% per second.
Clean: 40PDEF: 2245% 50PDEF: 1981% 70PDEF: 1453%
W/ Leafre Set: 40PDEF: 2641% 50PDEF: 2477% 70PDEF: 2146%
W/ Leafre Set and 30%ignore on weapon: 40PDEF: 2906% 50PDEF: 2807% 70PDEF: 2609%
W/ Sacrifice (assuming it is same speed as DI for now): 2951% (so even with high %ignore it wins out at any reasonably level of PDEF).
W/ Sacrifice (assuming it retains it's 750 MS speed): 3236%
[b]Paladin (Faster 3 on Nuetral)[/b]: [1032% (Blast assuming 344% per hit with CO) + 40% (FA)] * 1.72 (Guessing that Holy Charge is 152% with CO) * 1.235% (average crit damage increase assuming a 67% proc rate of 120%-150% damage) * 0.97 (average damage from a 94% mastery) * 1.45 (attacks per second) = 3202% per second.
Clean: 40PDEF: 2331% 50PDEF: 2113% 70PDEF: 1678%
W/ Leafre Set: 40PDEF: 2715% 50PDEF: 2594% 70PDEF: 2347%
W/ Leafre Set and 30%ignore on weapon: 40PDEF: 3099% 50PDEF: 3074% 70PDEF: 3023%
[b]Paladin (Faster 3 on Holy weak)[/b]: [1032% (Blast assuming 344% per hit with CO) + 40% (FA)] * 2.45% (Guessing that Holy Charge is 152% with CO) * 1.235% (average crit damage increase assuming a 67% proc rate of 120%-150% damage) * 0.97 (average damage from a 94% mastery) * 1.45 (attacks per second) = 4562% per second.
Clean: 40PDEF: 3595% 50PDEF: 3011% 70PDEF: 2390%
W/ Leafre Set: 40PDEF: 3869% 50PDEF: 3595% 70PDEF: 3394%
W/ Leafre Set and 30%ignore on weapon: 40PDEF: 4416% 50PDEF: 4380% 70PDEF: 4307%
[b]Paladin (Faster 3 on Holy + Lightning weak)[/b]: [1032% (Blast assuming 344% per hit with CO) + 40% (FA)] * 2.55 (Guessing that Holy Charge is 152% with CO) * 1.235% (average crit damage increase assuming a 67% proc rate of 120%-150% damage) * 0.97 (average damage from a 94% mastery) * 1.45 (attacks per second) = 4748% per second.
Clean: 40PDEF: 3457% 50PDEF: 3134% 70PDEF: 2488%
W/ Leafre Set: 40PDEF: 4026% 50PDEF: 3846% 70PDEF: 3485%
W/ Leafre Set and 30%ignore on weapon: 40PDEF: 4596% 50PDEF: 4558% 70PDEF: 4482%
[b]Aran (Faster 2 using DS + TS + FB)[/b]: [(100% (Reg Attack)+800% (DS) + 980% (TS) + 150 (AFA)) * 1.34 (average crit damage assuming 65% proc rate of 135%-170% damage) + (1065% (FB) * 1.52 (average crit damage assuming 100% proc rate of 135%-170%)] * 1.05 (Regained Memory on bosses) * 1.2 (Cleaving Attack on bosses) * 1.35 (Snow Charge) *1.25 (to represent the higher multiplier of a PA over a 1H weapon like the other warriors tend to use) * 0.95 (Average hit with 90% mastery) * 0.5 (attacks per second) = 4382%%
Clean: 40PDEF: 3330% 50PDEF: 3067% 70PDEF: 2542%
W/ Leafre Set: 40PDEF: 3856% 50PDEF: 3725% 70PDEF: 3462%
W/ Leafre Set and 30%ignore on weapon: 40PDEF: 4382% 50PDEF: 4382% 70PDEF: 4382%
[b]Aran (Faster 2 using DS + TS)[/b]: [(100% (Reg Attack) + 800% (DS) + 980% (TS) + 150 (AFA)) * 1.34 (average crit damage assuming 65% proc rate of 135%-170% damage) * 1.05 (Regained Memory on bosses) * 1.2 (Cleaving Attack on bosses) * 1.35 (Snow Charge) * 1.25 (to represent the higher multiplier of a PA over a 1H weapon like the other warriors tend to use) * 0.95 (Average hit with 90% mastery) * 0.72 (attacks per second) = 3956%
Clean: 40PDEF: 3007% 50PDEF: 2769% 70PDEF: 2294%
W/ Leafre Set: 40PDEF: 3481% 50PDEF: 3363% 70PDEF: 3125%
W/ Leafre Set and 30%ignore on weapon: 40PDEF: 3956% 50PDEF: 3956% 70PDEF: 3956%
[b]Aran (Faster 2 using Final Toss spam)[/b]: (640 + 150 AFA) * 1.34 (average crit damage assuming 65% proc rate of 135%-170% damage) * 1.05 (Regained Memory on bosses) * 1.2 (Cleaving Attack on bosses) * 1.35 (Snow Charge) *1.25 (to represent the higher multiplier of a PA over a 1H weapon like the other warriors tend to use) * 0.95 (Average hit with 90% mastery) * 3 (attacks per second) = 6414%
Clean: 40PDEF: 4875% 50PDEF: 4490% 70PDEF: 3720%
W/ Leafre Set: 40PDEF: 5644% 50PDEF: 5452% 70PDEF: 5067%
W/ Leafre Set and 30%ignore on weapon: 40PDEF: 6414% 50PDEF: 6414% 70PDEF: 6414%
[b]Aran (Faster 2 using Final Toss spam assuming FT doesn't proc AFA)[/b]: 640 (FT) * 1.34 (average crit damage assuming 65% proc rate of 135%-170% damage) * 1.05 (Regained Memory on bosses) * 1.2 (Cleaving Attack on bosses) * 1.35 (Snow Charge) *1.25 (to represent the higher multiplier of a PA over a 1H weapon like the other warriors tend to use) * 0.95 (Average hit with 90% mastery) * 3 (attacks per second) = 5197%
Clean: 40PDEF: 3936% 50PDEF: 3638% 70PDEF: 3014%
W/ Leafre Set: 40PDEF: 4573% 50PDEF: 4417% 70PDEF: 4105%
W/ Leafre Set and 30%ignore on weapon: 40PDEF: 5197% 50PDEF: 5197% 70PDEF: 5197%
[b]Demon Slayer (Faster 2)[/b]: [2000% (Demon Impact) * 1.3 (extra damage on bosses) * 1.425 (average damage of crits with 100% proc rate of 135%-150%)] * 1.25 (Concentration) *1.35 (Metamorphosis) * .95 (average damage from 90% mastery) * 0.9 (attacks per second) = 5345%
Clean: 40PDEF: 4704% 50PDEF: 4543% 70PDEF: 4223%
W/ Leafre Set: 40PDEF: 5345% 50PDEF: 5345% 70PDEF: 5345%
W/ Leafre Set and 30%ignore on weapon: 40PDEF: 5345% 50PDEF: 5345% 70PDEF: 5345%
[header] With Useful/Decent Skills[/header]
[b]Hero (Faster 2)[/b]: [915% (IS) + 309% (AFA)] * 2 (ACA) * 1.62(Enrage) * 1.25 (Chance Attack) * 1.128% (aproximate damage increase from crits based on them not stacking with ACA and a 46% proc rate of 146%-165% damage) * 1.59 (attacks per second with IS) * 0.85 (average damage from 70% mastery) = 7557% per second.
[b]DrK (Faster 2)[/b]: [910% (DI) + 40% (FA)] * 1.61 (Berserk) * 1.377 (average crit damage increase assuming 65% proc rate of 151%-165% damage) * 1.25 (to represent the higher multiplier of a PA/Spear over a 1H weapon like the other warriors tend to use) * .96 (average damage from 92% mastery) * 1.59 (attacks per second with DI) = 4018% per second.
W/ Sacrifice (assuming it retains it's 750 MS speed): 4045%
[b]Paladin (Faster 2 on Nuetral)[/b]: [1032% (Blast assuming 344% per hit with CO) + 40% (FA)] * 1.72 (Guessing that Holy Charge is 152% with CO) * 1.327% (average crit damage increase assuming a 77% proc rate of 120%-165% damage) * 0.97 (average damage from a 94% mastery) * 1.59 (attacks per second) = %3774 per second.
[b]Aran (Faster 2 using DS + TS + FB)[/b]: [(100% (Reg Attack)+810% (DS) + 992% (TS) + 154 (AFA)) * 1.45 (average crit damage assuming 75% proc rate of 135%-185% damage) + (1080% (FB) * 1.61 (average crit damage assuming 100% proc rate of 136%-185%)] * 1.05 (Regained Memory on bosses) * 1.2 (Cleaving Attack on bosses) * 1.35 (Snow Charge) *1.25 (to represent the higher multiplier of a PA over a 1H weapon like the other warriors tend to use) * 0.96 (Average hit with 92% mastery) * 0.5 (attacks per second) = 4817%
[b]Aran (Faster 2 using Final Toss spam)[/b]: [660(FT) + 154 (AFA)] * 1.45 (average crit damage assuming 75% proc rate of 136%-185% damage) * 1.05 (Regained Memory on bosses) * 1.2 (Cleaving Attack on bosses) * 1.35 (Snow Charge) *1.25 (to represent the higher multiplier of a PA over a 1H weapon like the other warriors tend to use) * 0.96 (Average hit with 92% mastery) * 3 (attacks per second) = 7228%
[b]Aran (Faster 2 using Final Toss spam if FA/AFA doesn't proc with FT)[/b]: 660(FT) * 1.45 (average crit damage assuming 75% proc rate of 135%-185% damage) * 1.05 (Regained Memory on bosses) * 1.2 (Cleaving Attack on bosses) * 1.35 (Snow Charge) *1.25 (to represent the higher multiplier of a PA over a 1H weapon like the other warriors tend to use) * 0.96 (Average hit with 92% mastery) * 3 (attacks per second) = 5860%
Edit: Added in values for PDEF and %ignore.
Edit 2: As pointed out by @Alex168 the values for Hero and Paladin are a little lower than they should be since I didn't (and won't until I can figure out an accurate method) factor in the extra range they can get from a shield.
Edit 3: Fixed my mistake regarding Arans.
Edit 4: Added in a section for having Useful CO, Useful SI, and Decent SE.
Edit 5: Added in a version of FT-Spam if FA/AFA doesn't work with FT since I have heard this is true but unable to confirm so far.
102 Comments • Newest first
[quote=FireTongueX]For a newer player that's the disheartening part - I have a lv.110 Paladin as my first/highest character and knowing I'd need to get a hero probably through ACA / IS / AFA to start pulling away from the Paladin. Then again, getting to 110 won't take much time now that I've been there before and have weapons waiting. Also, if it's good for the long-haul, maybe that'll be a way to keep me focused
Sometimes I think my love of numbers is a curse...[/quote]
A Hero should pull ahead for 1v1-4 at 140 once you have both ACA and IS maxed actually. So that isn't quite so high level. And yeah getting to 120+ gets easier every time you do it since you know more about the game, you have a better idea where to train, and you (probably) have more money and therefore better equips. I could probably get a character to 120+ in a month or less if I really wanted to now even though it took me 6 years to get my Hero to 120.
Okay so recently I have heard that Final Attack doesn't proc from Final Toss. So I added in a value for that in both the Useful/Decent section and the regular section to reflect this. Until I can confirm one way or another both values will remain up. If anyone can help confirm or debunk it would be very useful. As is assuming it is true it means that although FT spam is still better DPM than using OS + FB it is no longer as good DPM as a Hero. It is still better than a DrK or Pally and about equal to a DS.
[quote=kmarts3curity]That's cool. But most don't bother reading it... Keep it short and simple. That's what I do. But w/e[/quote]
The very nature of a mathematical approach prohibits one from making it short. If I kept it short people would constantly question how I got to my conclusions and leaving the data out for everyone to see allows people to question and critique my work which allows me to correct it. I'm sorry it is of no use to you in it's current incarnation but I can't imagine being able to shorten it significantly without altering it to something wholly different from what it is meant to be.
[quote=kmarts3curity]Eh I just see a big wall of text. Ima wait for a vid with a demo.[/quote]
Wall of Text is my native tongue.
[quote=FireTongueX]Here's another n00b question. I know all of these calculations are done at lvl 200 characters, and I understand that heroes max out later. Without doing a new set of math, any idea on how close they are at 120 - 150? I've also gone back and forth about switching from Paladin to Hero because of the 1v1 damage, but my gut tells me to stay with Paladin because I like the gameplay and because I'd have to wait so long before the difference becomes obvious. (I'm 110 now).[/quote]
Post-Union Paladin at 133 has [(Blast) 4 * 264% + 40% (FA)] * 1.60% (Flame + Lightning Charge) * 1.235% (crit average) * .97% (mastery) * 1.45 (# of hits) = 3045%
Post-Union Hero at 133 has [280% * 2 (Brandish) + 40% (FA)] * 2 (ACA) * 1.25 (Chance Attack) * 1.075 (crit average) * .85 (mastery) * 1.45 (# of hits) = 1987%
So yeah at lower levels a Paladin will win out at 1v1. The reason I did it at level 133 is because a Paladin doesn't even have a solid 1v1 move at 120 and needs to max ACB first. Granted some Paladins will skip Blast until later if they don't boss a lot anyway but 133 is the earliest it is likely to be maxed. The reason Heroes win out eventually is that Paladins really only have one more major DPM increasing skill and the difference between Holy Charge and Flame Charge is rather small (140% vs 152% for 30 SP isn't that great) but Heroes have a TON of DPM boosting skills (Enrage is 160%, AFA is a ton better than FA, IS is around 40% better than Brandish, etc.) that they can max later on. If I had to guess at a level where the Hero overtakes the Paladin it would be around 140 when you have ACA and IS maxed. Even then they are only slightly better and don't start completely dominating until they get Enrage and AFA maxed.
Oh just a note for Heroes I just realized. After this update the Coma + IS macro is only a tiny bit better on 6 or larger mobs and not as good at 5 or less mobs. IS just got buffed way more than Coma did and it easily outpaces it in total DPM on mobs of 5. So once IS is maxed you don't really need Coma since the 5% more DPM isn't really worth sacrificing a key IMO. So I think I just found where I can put our new "not-soul rush soul rush" skill...
@RealSheep: I'm sorry. I really don't like depressing people and I certainly don't like that Paladins are so weak comparatively but I like to do math and I don't let my personal feelings about the classes influence things. I certainly wouldn't put the gap between the classes to be so extreme if I was in charge of things (I would keep Heroes as top DPM for 1v1 because that is how I view them but the gap would only be 10-15% not 50%). I wish the classes were better balanced but they're not.
I can't say if you should quit your Paladin for a Hero or not since that is a personal decision. I would say that if you enjoy the gameplay of the class to keep playing it but ultimately the decision is up to you and if you do quit I feel bad that I had some part in that. I wouldn't want to ruin anyone's gametime.
[quote=RealSheep]My final attack does 100-200k also, I wasn't really counting that..The 500ks are crits, and that's still not double of 300ks..Heroes have quite a bit less of a crit rate (I'm around 85%) so the actually damage should be lower..which I think is enough to debunk the TS's claims (unless you're using a hacked ST, that's cheating, based on your picture I don't think you are, I'm just saying) and means that heroes don't hit twice as hard as palis with similar %str (it's also perfect because my pali is 190)..Still, I'm surprised/impressed at how much more you hit..[/quote]
1) Identical %str does not mean identical range.
2) I didn't say IS would hit 2X as much as Blast. I said that a Hero would hit 2X as much as a Paladin post-Union.
3) He didn't say the 500k hits were crits he said that post-union AFA would be 2 500k hits and he would crit more often. Two separate things.
The comparison isn't just IS (900% times buffs) compared to Blast (1040% times buffs). It is IS + AFA (1200% [since AFA is a 60% chance of 500% dmg it averages to 300% per hit] times buffs) compared to Blast + FA (1080% times buffs). So if Alex168 is hitting 3 500k hits and a 60% chance of another 500k hit that is a total of 1.8mil damage (counting the 60% chance of 500k as 300k each attack to get an average result). You are hitting 3 300k hits and a 40% chance of 100k which is a total of 940k or slightly over half what he hits. So thank you for proving my point actually.
[quote=Abysseon]It can't apply to just any class since a funded bishop or bucc cannot compete with a funded NL.
Demon slayer is the warrior with the best potential in that regard.[/quote]
A drk has more "potential" considering it will be able to hit cap as more content is released.
If you're talking about minimal funding then clearly DS will be on the top.
[quote=Bomber321]Did you add in the thief/pirate revamp minipatch changes that were given to warriors?[/quote]
that mini-patch is still in tespia, so no.. he didn't added the extra critical from IS to heros, or the 20% dmg boost on blast
Did you add in the thief/pirate revamp minipatch changes that were given to warriors?
@Toscox: If I was making a "Warrior Gameplay comparison post-Advance of the Union" thread I would factor gameplay in. I am not making that nor am I claiming to do so. As I've said multiple times before "In the end the character with the highest DPM is the one that is still standing so survivability can be the most important factor at times." It still doesn't change the fact that a Hero has higher DPM as long as they are still standing. For the record I know and know of plenty of Heroes who can HT just fine without dying so it isn't like a Hero can't do that too.
Arans after Union no longer have any reduced damage from hitting multiple enemies and I believe they out-damage Demon Slayers on mobs but I'm not 100% sure on that yet.
@Abysseon: Your statement applies to all class. Any class, but if we talk about potential for warrior then I'd say Drk have the best potential due to being able to hit 5 times 6 mobs(I think it was 6) with the same speed as other warriors.
@Cthulhusama: It is true that demon slayers aren't the best 1v1 simply because they have absolutely no 1v1 skill, if you were to re-do your calculation for mobbing I believe Demon Slayer would be first or maybe second if Aran doesn't get damage deduction on mobs like it was pre-Chaos (not sure if that was changed with Chaos or not). I have a Hero which has 67k clean range and a paladin with 48k clean range and yet I only HT on my Paladin because my Hero can't make it since it dies pretty fast, better damage =/= better gameplay.
[quote=RealSheep]I'm not entirely sure if I can believe this based on what I've seen in-game, unless advance of the union gave heroes a pretty major buff and left everyone else in the dust. To me it seems like you were just like "Oh I like heroes so I'll say heroes are the best" .. With my gear on a hero I wouldn't be hitting twice as hard on ele-neutral monsters. That'd be ridiculous. And, for your statement 3 above this about letting people know the best warrior, everyone already knew heroes are the strongest warrior, so thank you for telling us what we already knew? But I think there must be a mistake on how much better. My pali can do 300ks on ele-neutral, so on a hero I should be able to do 600ks with barely 100% str? If that were true, there would be a LOT more people hitting damage cap.
-Took out my part on chance attack, below is probably right.[/quote]
In a word, ...THIS!
@RealSheep: I am pretty sure I got most everything right by now at least with the non-Demon Slayer classes. Heroes did get a pretty good buff in this update too.
Right now my Hero has about a 20k range. With Chance Attack, max IS, and ACA I do around 100k per line of IS which fits with what the math says as well. 20,000 * 1.25 * 2* 2.25 = 112500 * .96 (thanks to the 10 PDEF of normal enemies) is 108,000 which is right around where a single line of a non-crit hit is for me. Once I have max Enrage that will be 172,800 per line of IS. If AFA triggers it would do 192,000 with Enrage. After this update I will be doing two of those 192k hits 60% of the time and my IS will be doing 230,400 per line of IS and I will have more frequent and more powerful crits as well. Then Chance attack will also be able to be on 24/7 on a boss. So I go from a total damage (if AFA procs) of 710,400 to a total damage of 1,075,200 per IS if AFA procs. That is a 150% damage increase from pre-union to post-union. That's not even counting the extra and stronger crits from Enrage either since crits don't stack with ACA they don't provide as much of a benefit but it is still nice.
If that 20k range was on a Paladin? Pre-Union that is 20k * 2.89 (blast)* 1.495 (Holy + Lightning Charge) = 86,411k per line of Blast. Multiply that by 1.235 to account for crits gives you an average of 106,717 per line of Blast. Three of those plus a 14,770 hit from FA gives a total of 334,921 pre-union (funny thing is that's about half what the Hero does). Post-Union blast will do 146,144 per line and FA will do 16,993 for a total of 455,425 total post-union.
So if I geared a Paladin exactly like my Hero is geared (I would be dumb to use a ST on a Pally but the idea is the same) I would do about 47% of the damage I do as a Hero pre-union and post-union it would be 42% of the damage I would do as a Hero. Look I love all 5 (counting DW) warrior classes I have played and expect to love playing on a Demon Slayer as well but numbers have nothing to do with whether I like the class or not. If you can point out a flaw in my math feel free to do so and I will either explain or adjust what I have to reflect that. As is just saying you disagree with it doesn't help anyone if you can't show anything being wrong with the Math.
@Toscox: I agree that the chart is only really accurate against a single unmoving target which is unrealistic but it is impossible to actually apply any kind of factor to account for the enemy moving or knocking you away or pausing for re-potting or any of the many factors that make real life different than raw numbers. I also agree that the Demon Slayer isn't accurate at all and it is really only there so I could point out that a Demon Slayer couldn't out-DPM an Aran or Hero even if they could spam Demon Impact.
[quote=RealSheep]I'm not entirely sure if I can believe this based on what I've seen in-game, unless advance of the union gave heroes a pretty major buff and left everyone else in the dust. To me it seems like you were just like "Oh I like heroes so I'll say heroes are the best" .. With my gear on a hero I wouldn't be hitting twice as hard on ele-neutral monsters. That'd be ridiculous. And, for your statement 3 above this about letting people know the best warrior, everyone already knew heroes are the strongest warrior, so thank you for telling us what we already knew? But I think there must be a mistake on how much better. My pali can do 300ks on ele-neutral, so on a hero I should be able to do 600ks with barely 100% str? If that were true, there would be a LOT more people hitting damage cap.
-Took out my part on chance attack, below is probably right.[/quote]
You would be surprised. with decent SE and CO my hero hits about 2.5 times what my paladin hits, eventhough my untradeable gear is on my hero I'm sure if I had the exact same gear on my paladin I would still hit twice lower than my Hero, CO gives the biggest boost to Heroes. Now this DPM chart is completly false when playing the character because TS only accounted for offensive skill and completly left out defensive skills (not that it's necessary to add it since it's supposed to be purely about damage), as for Demon slayers I don't even think you can put them in a DPM chart there are too many factors, they are only able to spam Demon Impact when using Infinity Force which is only 1/10 of the time.
Edit : didn't realize you were talking about the first chart, then yea I don't think I can do twice the damage of my paladin on my hero.
[quote=RealSheep]I'm not entirely sure if I can believe this based on what I've seen in-game, unless advance of the union gave heroes a pretty major buff and left everyone else in the dust. To me it seems like you were just like "Oh I like heroes so I'll say heroes are the best" .. With my gear on a hero I wouldn't be hitting twice as hard on ele-neutral monsters. That'd be ridiculous. Also, though it wouldn't affect the calculation in a major way, including chance attack on a hero is a little ridiculous, considering the things that you need to activate it don't even work on bosses, which is where a 1v1 dpm chart would actually be used.[/quote]Though I agree with the bulk of what you said... it's called panic.
@alex168: It would be amusing to mess with people. I do think 20% might be too much since a BaM makes up for having such an awesome skill by having mediocre damage but since Heroes already have awesome damage it would be unfair to also give us such a high damage buff. It's not like making it hit only 1 target is that bad anyway. It just means that it is useless for training. It's not like I ever pondered if the extra damage from using Enrage at Zak would be worth not killing his summons.
@kizz123:I find working with numbers and discovering new aspects to the classes to be a fun and interesting way to spend my time. I would never have known just how good FT-Spam can be without doing the work for this comparison.
@ajwright92: I do enjoy the game or I wouldn't have kept playing it for the past 6 years. I like to think of the DPM comparisons as a good way to see funding effectiveness. Since for warriors we all have the same equips (other than weapon and/or shield) we can see that a Hero with 2 bil worth of equips will have better 1v1 DPM than a Paladin with 2 bil worth of equips. This is useful to some people. It shows which classes shine in which situations. If someone wants to make a character that is really good at training and they don't care about 1v1 they would want to go to either an Aran, DS, or DrK. If they want high 1v1 and don't care about mobbing they would want to go with either a Hero,DS, or Aran. This is useful for newer people and damage obsessed people.
Why do people waste time with dpm charts seriously, just play the game.
I doubt any of these warriors have the same exact fundings to make a comparison like this anyway.
Enjoy the game and just let it be, who cares...
[quote=kizz123]What the point of dpm charts if they are never accurate.[/quote]
It may not be 100% accurate but I would like to think it is at least 95% accurate and to me that is good enough to have value.
@SombraManx: Yeah I was trying to not rip off ADA but it was hard. I did think 20% was probably too much even considering ADA being 20% already since Heroes have much better DPM than a BaM so we don't need to be as good support too. 10% would be cool I think. Not quite broken but still makes bringing a Hero to a boss run to be an awesome idea.
@Cthulhusama:
meh but.. 20% is just too much, maybe a 10% dmg boost, that would be awesome (kinda like an ADA ripoff)
@SombraManx: Well I was mostly joking about the 105% part in part because it reminded me of when I was thinking of a party buff that gave mastery and realized it would give Pallies 104% mastery. The only problem I see with it is that 10% stance isn't going to help much if you have none so it would really only help warriors. Going from 50% (while using Infinity) to 60% won't help mages much either. As cool as the idea sounds I think it would either wind up useless or OP depending on how high the %stance rate was.
I think making a skill to make a nerfed version of Enrage that benefited the whole party would be cool. Focused Anger: Gives +20% damage to the whole party but all attacks can only hit 1 target. Doesn't stack with Enrage. Consumes 5 orbs. 240 Second duration. Required Skill: Enrage 30.
Something like that ^ would be kind of cool IMO. Maybe only 10% if 20% is too strong though. Not sure.
@Cthulhusama: but that 10% will hep magicians, archers and pirates, which is awesome (because most of them got a nerfed version of stance... EG, wild hunters, buccs, I/L, F/P etc) and heros need a better party buff I think
@CDitcrazex: I'll probably try to figure out some kind of calculation for it at some point just to see if it is better DPM but it probably won't be better than FT spam.
@alex168: Good to see you enjoy it.
@SombraManx: It would be kind of cool to get some upgrades as long as MM didn't get nerfed (as in being just as good at 20 after as it is at 30 right now). That would make MM more fun to level IMO as well since you would be able to get more targets quicker. Although for Advanced Rage it would be amusing to have 105% stance rate! I do think there it would be cool to have some skill that gives stance though and capping it at 100% wouldn't be hard.
they should decrease MM max lvl to 20 for heros and Drks
and add another new skills
Maybe Advanced rage for heros and a sacrifice upgrade for Drks xD
Ultimate Sacrifice: same delay, 230px range, attacks 3x times with 400% dmg, with 3% hp per attack and 30 mp
Advanced Rage: Increases 40 weapon/magic att, adds a passive 10% stance to all party members
I'm just going to throw this out there. I've been experimenting with adding in a quick final toss during that small delay after final blow and it seems to increase my dpm. Anyone wanna do some calculations on that?
[quote=SombraManx]wow! actually drks + decent SI + decent CO + decent SE > Pallys[/quote]
Well DrK have a lot of good 4th job skills (DI, Beholder and it's ilk, and Berserk) that benefit from Decent CO which the Pally can't take advantage of thanks to.... already having CO. This would also mean that a DrK could have higher DPM than a Paladin simply by partying with a Paladin. Not positive since SE also plays a role but since SI affects the two classes the same that can be ignored when comparing them. So at the least I think I can safely say that a DrK with decent SE who parties with a Paladin should have better DPM than said Paladin.
wow! actually drks + decent SI + decent CO + decent SE > Pallys
[quote=FireTongueX]I have a dumb question from someone with only a lvl 95 WK. In a training scenario, would a hero skip on enrage to lose some dmg but hit more mobs? Also, would Arans skills remain the same? Slightly off-topic, but still related to overall dpm I think.[/quote]
Well normally I would say that no question is a dumb question but Basil has taught me otherwise. Regardless your questions aren't dumb. Anyway. Yeah Enrage is pretty much exclusively used for bossing since normal damage on 4 monsters is way better than 160% damage on 1 monster. Just like a Paladin would use ACB over Blast on multiple monsters and a DrK would use DI over Sacrifice. Aran skills remain the same except that a couple of their skills add extra damage only on bosses (regained memory and Cleaving Attack) and those shouldn't apply at normal monsters or LHC/Stronghold/MP monsters but would apply at places where you are actually fighting multiple actual bosses like Scarlion/Targa, Zakum Arms, HT parts, Cygnus and her Chief Knights, CWKPQ (whenever that gets fixed), etc.
Edited my first post for a little better clarity and ease of reading. I also added in a section for if you have Useful/Decent skills active. I only picked the more likely scenarios rather than all of them (no elemental weaknesses or Arans using just OS) and didn't do the PDEF calculations for that section. I also didn't do it for Demon Slayers since I really can't figure out a good way to calculate their DPM and don't care that much about them to be honest. So I'm going to ignore them for now. Not sure what I will do in the future.
Oh and I have heard that Final Toss doesn't proc FA/AFA. Can anyone confirm or debunk that? It would be greatly appreciated if I had a definitive answer for that but for now there will be one FT-Spam with and one without AFA.
Anyway. Fairly interesting results. With all the Decent skills Heroes hit top DPM even if FT does proc AFA, Arans are still above Pally and DrK even if FT doesn't proc AFA. FT spam is still better than OS + FB even if it doesn't proc AFA but not by as much obviously. Interestingly enough DrK come out ahead of Paladins probably in part because Useful CO is useless for Paladins. It also seems as though Sacrifice is better DPM even ignoring PDEF thanks to its higher speed.
Edit: I know Paladins Blast got changed in the latest KMST update but I want to wait until it hits regular KMS before updating it since Nexon tends to change things from KMST to KMS anyway. It isn't a big change anyway (in total % at least).
@Cthulhusama: Fair enough! I was mostly bumping
[quote=phoenix23]Add recent pally buffs![/quote]
I'm going to wait on this one until it goes from KMST to regular KMS so I don't just have to redo it all over again when they inevitably change it.
Add recent pally buffs!
[quote=AdmiralDuke]Sums up my thoughts pretty well. It's misleading to include leafre sets and 30% pdr from weapons. Boss > PDR in all cases (except when not bossing). Even if it were Boss & PDR on the same weapon, it would be 30 boss/15 pdr.[/quote]
That is why I did three separate calculations for PDEF. One assuming you have no %ignore outside the amount you get from your class (Hero and Aran get 40%, DrK get 20% on DI and 100% on Sac, Pally get 32% on Blast, Demon Slayers get 70% with Demon Impale), one with 30% ignore extra (from weapon, leafre set, or full VL set), and one with 60% ignore extra (from either 60% on the weapon or some combination of the above). Then I took those three scenarios and applied them to the three most common PDEFs (for bossing) which are 40 (Zak, HT, etc.), 50 (CZak, CHT, etc), and 70 (PB and Cygnus). Thus we can see how each class stacks up in a variety of scenarios and circumstances.
Also just for completeness 30% ignore will increase your damage more than 30% boss if you are fighting PB/Cygnus and have less than 50 %ignore which is just about any class.
Edit: Wow I made a huge mistake with Arans. I completely forgot about their regular attack at the start of the DS + TS thing. This slow attack with low damage severely lowers their DPM. It also makes using Final Blow better than skipping since the speed difference isn't as big when both of them have the incredibly slow regular attack at the beginning. Of course for those Arans that can spam Final Toss this won't affect that DPM calculation but it is enough to put Arans much lower than Heroes and even lower than Demon Slayers (although still higher than Paladin and DrK). So the new order for 1v1 damage is:
Aran (Final Toss spam)
Hero
Demon Slayer
Paladin (Elementally Weak)
Aran (DS + TS + FB)
Dark Knight
Paladin (Neutral)
I'll be editing that into my original post as well but thought I would put it here first to make it more obvious to those who have already read the thread.
[quote=alex168]shouldn't it be drk and aran have slightly higher values, not hero and pally have lower values?[/quote]
No I think the way I said it expresses it better since the Aran and DrK should have 1.25 times the range of a Hero/Pally using a 1H weapon with no shield. It's just that the Hero/Pally calculations don't factor in the shield and should be higher than they are. So me saying that the Aran/DrK multiplier makes their attacks 1.25 times higher is accurate it's just that the Hero and Pally calculations are slightly lower than they should be.
Although after further thought on the matter I realized that with the 60 extra attack that the Aran has from skills (90 total compared to the 30 and 34 from Hero and Paladin) should actually more than offset the lack of a shield on those two classes. That should leave those three as more or less accurate when compared to each other as they are all lacking around the same amount of range (although the Aran's extra attack benefits the unfunded more since it is guaranteed unlike having a good shield) and only the DrK is left out (once again....). So although they might not accurately represent how much % per second you can deal they do a good job of comparing the classes (other than DrK.... they kind of get screwed over a lot).
@Cthulhusama: oooh okay. thank you for clearing that up
@phoenix23: Think what you like stubborn fool. -.- honestly, never knew a simple statement would make people 'assume' so much. me using OSFB over FT, is like saying, 'your a noob. you got a psb.' -.- first of all, i never said ANYTHING about pot cost. 2nd, i never even mentioned how im gonna use OSFB over FT, lastly, please actually read properly. i said compared to. that doesnt mean i cant afford mp pots nor im gonna stick to OSFB over FT nor im not aware of the fact that FT is better. honestly WTH are we arguing for? how the mp pot cost come from? -.-
[quote=kosmachine]@phoenix23: ROFL nice [...] i [...] cant read. Im pretty [...] sure [...] Meaning i [...] wanna carry a BUTTLOAD [...] And no i wasnt talking about w.e the calculation you did. So idc [...] Duuude your waaaay too [...] Honest [...] Thats [...] me saying 'mp pots too expensive QQ'. Honestly [...] And no i did read your reply [...] without even reading it properly.[/quote]
I don't understand you.
If you want to stick to using your inferior skill OSFB because of the MP cost that's just sad.
[quote=phoenix23]@kosmachine "2) I also only did DPM% ignoring any extra attack from skills (although I did compensate for Arans and DrK having higher multiplier weapons) since there is roughly the same amount of passive attack between the 5 classes."
No, he didn't.
It'd be interesting to see the actual +atk bonus numbers for each class.[/quote]
I sort of did actually. I ignored the +attack bonus from combo attack but I did assume that the Aran would have 100+ combo count at all times (easily done with combo recharge now) for the purpose of combo critical. The problem with +atk buffs is that they don't factor into DPM% calculations. There isn't a good way to factor them in just like there isn't a good way to factor in the bonus from a shield for a Paladin and Hero unless I wanted to do the calculations with an assumed set of equips.
@phoenix23: ROFL nice quoting some BS there, never knew ANYONE would go that low. ill say it again since you cant read. Im pretty damn sure that it consumes more mp COMPARED to OS/FB. Meaning i dont wanna carry a BUTTLOAD of pots. And no i wasnt talking about w.e the calculation you did. So idc but yes thank you for answering my question. So TS didnt add any atk buffs for all class? Duuude your waaaay too arrogant. Honestly. May be you cant afford mp pots? Thats how you come up with the idea of falsely quoting me saying 'mp pots too expensive QQ'. Honestly who cant afford mp pots? And no i did read your reply but you replied without even reading it properly.
i like my aran........ over all other warriors
OT: couldn't you have made this when the actual Patch came to GMS so that the most-funded warriors of each type just make it easier for you
@kosmachine "2) I also only did DPM% ignoring any extra attack from skills (although I did compensate for Arans and DrK having higher multiplier weapons) since there is roughly the same amount of passive attack between the 5 classes."
No, he didn't.
It'd be interesting to see the actual +atk bonus numbers for each class.
@Cthulhusama: did you include aran combo buffs? Just wondering. Lol
[quote=kosmachine]@phoenix23: you cant read can you?[/quote]
ROFL.
You didn't even read my reply, did you?
Here, I'll write it out for you again.
At first, I accidentally I went in the portals at LHC, but then most people should have a stroke of genius and realize that FT has a range that's quite long and you don't really need to stand anywhere near the portals.
And MP consuption? REALLY? There are these things called Potions -- they restore HP and MP!
[b]Using OSFB over FT because of mana cost = Using Dragon Fury over Dark Impale because of mana cost.[/b]
[quote=kosmachine]q___q i know FT is better but i cant afford to use mana bcuz pots are too expensive, so i just liek to use the single-Attack. its not as much damage but at least i dont consume MP![/quote]
Get a load of this guy.
Okay so I fixed the Elemental Weakness thing I was unsure about but I won't upload the changed numbers until I finish redoing it for all the versions. It's not my highest priority anyway since there aren't any major bosses that are holy or lightning weak that I am aware of other than Eckhart. I'm still a little unsure about whether Threaten works on regular def or PDEF so I think it will be best to just make one set of values as if it is PDEF (which makes it way better than I thought it was) and keep the values I have already as well.
I think I will make another set of values for the classes that assumes Useful SI, CO, and SE (of course Paladin's won't need Useful CO and Arans and DS don't need Useful SI) are all used. It will be interesting to see how each skill affects the classes. That will take a while and I think I won't bother doing it for the elementally weak paladin values or the OS+FB Aran variant. I'll update those values when I finish them. I will also work on correcting the elemental advantage values and doing another set of PDEF values for Threaten working on PDEF.
I'd like to thank everyone who pointed out any flaws or mistakes I have made and to encourage everyone to continue to do so.
@phoenix23: you cant read can you?
I see I thought that 2 was referring to the amount of speed decent SI was adding to. I just read it wrong so my bad.
@sumyounguy: he uses faster 3 and i said faster 2 because Si is +1...