Open forum on Ascension for Marksmen
EDIT: The first and third of my questions are also for BM's I suppose... I just have too much class pride.
EDIT: I'm "MelliMelon" and "HowiSWorks" (capital i though) on Tespia. Buddy if you want.
EDIT: for those of you asking about EB: see my [url=http://www.basilmarket.com/forum/2212529/0/How_evasion_skills_work_The_sad_reality.html]new thread here[/url].
@Alilatias: You said
"1) Illusion Step's evasion chance works exactly like Shadow Shifter, complete with animation and F2. However, when Illusion Step's evasion triggers, it will not trigger the 100% crit for 1 second effect. I ran multiple tests on this. Don't know if this is intentional or a bug."
But I never got the smile, and all my next attacks WERE criticals. Granted, I only have level 10 IS, but I did it a lot (and I did have IS on) and never got that effect. Did you test this yourself?
So, there are a few things I want to test in TES(t)pia.
1) How IS works with EB: [b]Messed up the data. Checking again[/b]
2) DB in LKC:[b] It DOES work![/b]
3) How EXACTLY does EP work?[b]EP completely replaces puppet (like strafe and US) It attacks and aggros monsters. When it is active, it lowers the amount of damage you receive, and does about 1/2 - 1/4 the damage of FP (when SL is maxed it's 1/4) and attacks at about the same rate as FP [/b]
...and maybe some more when I think of them. I will post the answers below after I get the results. I'm sure, however, that you have more questions that I haven't thought of. Also, other Tespiers can help me and comment below. I'll take the relevant ones and insert them into the thread.
[b]BEGIN[/b]. Some things of note:
0.5) All the monsters in tespia are glitched and have no ranged attacks. That being said, BGA will not work (almost positive) with [b]EP[/b]. Also, EP does not have the ridiculous defense that old-school puppet had (i.e. where a monster would do 2k to you, but only 1k to your puppet)
1) [b]Skills[/b] were already automatically distributed into the new skills. I had 5 points in archer mastery, 10 in physical training, 10 in concentrate, 0 in eagle and 0 in FP/DB, 10 in double jump, but no points in 4th job in the new skills. However, I only got points back from the removed skills.
2) [b]Snipe[/b] did not have a huge delay as was mentioned by someone else. Also, it looks really cool.
2.5) [b]Pierce's [/b]reduced delay is cool (especially for JSing), but only a small increase in shots per minute (~34.5 to 37.2). Maybe the math would now encourage us spamming it instead of charging. However, I don't know the multiplier for an uncharged shot.
3) I did not need a [b]skill book[/b] for SL or EP but I did for IS.
4) We have a cool little swirly ADA-like thing when FP is out and points are in SL.
5) Double jump, while awesome for mobility, looks quite dumb.
[header]Mathematically supported 1v1 skill build[/header]
Note that this is identical to the pierce build, besides the fact that in the pierce build you would get some pierce after 1 SL (level 124).
[quote=Fcroaonlk]
My tentative guide is:
120: 1 US, MMB, and Snipe
121: Max US (lol forgot)
124: Get 1 spirit link (after US because 11% hp isn't worth the awesome damage increase of US)
(get pierce if you want. It gets a nice buff in Jump. If you find yourself mobbing... do it.)
(get 1 Elite Puppet if you want. This will likely ruin your prospects of BGAing, but it will be nice for LKC and other bosses.)
124: Max MMB
134: Max MMS
Then get 9 SE
Then max Spirit Link
Max SE
Then max pierce or snipe (then the other)
Then MW or finally elite puppet (then the other)
Then illusion step
and getting hero's will when you need it.
Reasons for this build is that the main skills stay the same (I updated my DPM calculator, and when I iron out all the quirks, I'll upload it for scrutiny). Also, Spirit link isn't as good as we thought it would be (or I did) and the other skills before it win in terms of pure DPM (that being said, get it when you want the other stats. This is just a dpm build). Then not get elite puppet until late, as BGA is popular in early to mid-4th job and elite puppet kind of ruins that. Last you get illusion step which, although the dodge will add to survivability, I'm not willing to bet that it will make a significant impact (and the 30 dex or whatever is a bit of a joke). Again, this is all tentative. The math is not finished.[/quote]
[header]Bilbo's Elite Puppet Questions[/header]
[quote=bilbo3105]so is EB glitched, regardless of IS being active?[/quote]
No. EB never made an effect for us. We just missed and then got criticals. This is still the same for me.
[quote=bilbo3105]Also, would you mind providing more detail about EP. [/quote]
Think I got that in the main post.
[quote=bilbo3105]How strong is it (what dmg does it take), and how sporadic is the range of damage that it takes (remember puppet pre Big Bang)? [/quote]
It takes about the same amount of damage we do. Pretty consistently (see main post)
[quote=bilbo3105]What is the approximate range of its aggro, and its attack? [/quote]
My puppet did not auto-aggro. It just auto-attacked (which aggroed). The range was about equal to the exp bar (in widescreen maple). This is about the closest EP could be to the snails on the left without attacking: [url=http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/1387/maplestoryt201109241853.png]Here[/url]. @Bilbo3105: See how EP attacks up and down [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN3RSUO_pTM]here![/URL]
@BlueBomber24 says "Based on videos I saw ePuppet attacks within a 150-180% range"
[quote=bilbo3105]Is there a limit of mobs it can pull? Does it auto aggro at all? [/quote]
See above. No limit. It's just like you.
[quote=bilbo3105]Or can you still use it like the old puppet (i.e. attack, puppet, then monster follows, attack) or does it just work like this: (Puppet, monster follows, attack)? [/quote]
It's like the old puppet. You can attack to aggro the monster, and then puppet, but in the case where you don't attack, it won't follow puppet until puppet attacks it.
[quote=bilbo3105]Lastly, will it be worth it in your opinion to max it early, just leave it at level 1 or don't add anything into it at all.[/quote]
I wouldn't even put one point in it unless you don't plan on BGAing ever. I may put points into it at level 180 though (but be advised, 11k hp at level 1 without good defense won't last long at toad/HT/czak etc...). The damage reduction is nice... It'd be nice at LKC, but I wouldn't max it unless you were bossing a lot. (high-end bosses).
[header]BlueBomber's questions about IS. Please answer these if you know[/header]
[quote=bluebomber24]
1) With 0 SP in EB and IS what is our chances of avoiding a hit?
2) What [b]is[/b] the animation I should see with "EB" being successful?
3) What [b]is[/b] the animation I should see with "IS" being successful?
4) What does our avoid rate increase to with max EB and 0 IS?
5) What does our avoid rate increase to with max EB and max IS? If applicable.
6) What would our avoid be with 0 EB and max IS?
7) Concrete clarification on which skill adds to avoid and which is a dodge rate aka block skill.
8) If one skill does increase avoidabilty by a percentage, how does that affect our avoid rate? Answer can possibly be answered in questions 4 and/or 5.
[/quote]
This right here is painful. I'll try to get on it by doing another series of tests later. Will put it in the main thread for others.
41 Comments • Newest first
[quote=Ebilz]That would be correct.
... I think[/quote]
Lol, well, its only a matter of time before thousands of Archers will be playing with the skills, so hopfeully we will get a concrete answer soon.
Yay a thread on MM
@Ebilz: OK...so this helped alot thanks. It sounds like we have a 18% chance to dodge (average Avoid stat with broken EB) or a 38% chance to dodge (average avoid stat with a working EB) [b]AND[/b] a 30% chance to Block a skill. Of course this is only if I am interpreting everything you are saying correctly.
Summary:
We have two dodge skills:
1) 18-38% Chance to get a MISS; thus, activating 1 Second Critical.
2) 30% Chance to get a shiny BLOCK; thus, not activating 1 Second Critical.
Is this correct? o.o
@Fcroaonlk: alright cool
@chibicross: why would you recommend a pierce build?
[quote=chao195]i think this might effect a few things but i cam across this thread http://www.basilmarket.com/forum/2212920/
so if they reduce the amount exp you gain by 5% every level that would make LHC not as good after what somewhere between 135-140 right? so would maxing pierce earlier be more beneficial?[/quote]
Lol that's interesting. From what I've since researched, it seems LKC and Monster Park are not affected.
i think this might effect a few things but i cam across this thread http://www.basilmarket.com/forum/2212920/
so if they reduce the amount exp you gain by 5% every level that would make LHC not as good after what somewhere between 135-140 right? so would maxing pierce earlier be more beneficial?
[quote=ChibiCross]whaaat.
Does Mortal Blow work correctly? I remember it not activating a while back, or was that just a one time glitch.
[/quote]
Mortal Blow works right now (post chaos). Happy day.
[quote=bilbo3105]
@2:21 you see the description of IS. In the top part it says greatly increases avoidability and in the bottom portion (i.e. the level specific part), it says avoidability +1%.
Does your testing back up the plain reading of the descriptions or is there a catch?
If it is true, it means that you will get your passive 20% shad shift/dodge chance during 3rd job and IS is almost useless, as % avoid is not the greatest stat to gain (unless the formula has changed post Ascension?). Therefore +some dex and +some avoid is really not that great and makes we me want to definitely relegate IS to one of the last skills I max.
[/quote]
I think this is a good reading of the skills. However, EB has always been... questionable (a while back I did a test run of 2000 hits, 1000 with max EB and 1000 without EB and they were like 0.5% different or something ridiculous. It may have been fixed.)
[quote=bluebomber24]
1) With 0 SP in EB and IS what is our chances of avoiding a hit?
2) What [b]is[/b] the animation I should see with "EB" being successful?
3) What [b]is[/b] the animation I should see with "IS" being successful?
4) What does our avoid rate increase to with max EB and 0 IS?
5) What does our avoid rate increase to with max EB and max IS? If applicable.
6) What would our avoid be with 0 EB and max IS?
7) Concrete clarification on which skill adds to avoid and which is a dodge rate aka block skill.
8) If one skill does increase avoidabilty by a percentage, how does that affect our avoid rate? Answer can possibly be answered in questions 4 and/or 5.
[/quote]
This right here is painful. I'll try to get on it by doing another series of tests later. Will put it in the main thread for others.
[quote=bilbo3105]@UnagiLOL Yes they do, its been proven in a youtube video by a GMST Tester.
@chao195 Yes but you will still want your 1 point into SL, 1 into Snipe, 1 into MMB or Pierce or MMS at the start etc. I was just saying a general order or priority in early 4th job.
@Fcroaonlk
I'm now a bit confused and I'm surprised that no one has mentioned what I'm about to say yet.
I just watched a few videos on youtube of GMST players, and one of them was of a BM testing/showing the new skills. Maybe it was just me under the wrong impression, but the description of EB and IS seem 100% clear to me now and is very different to what I thought it was. It also may explain why some people are getting confused about it not working etc.
Here is the video: [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpfA2WUKYOg]BM Ascension Skills[/url]
On this BMs skill descriptions, @1:36 you sees that EB at max level gave a +20% 'dodge chance'. I.e. Seemed to me like [i]that[/i] is a Shadow Shifteresque dodge chance. Then when that proc'd you get your 1sec of criticals.
@2:21 you see the description of IS. In the top part it says greatly increases avoidability and in the bottom portion (i.e. the level specific part), it says avoidability +1%.
Does your testing back up the plain reading of the descriptions or is there a catch?
If it is true, it means that you will get your passive 20% shad shift/dodge chance during 3rd job and IS is almost useless, as % avoid is not the greatest stat to gain (unless the formula has changed post Ascension?). Therefore +some dex and +some avoid is really not that great and makes we me want to definitely relegate IS to one of the last skills I max.
I kind of wished IS would be > than EB so it motivated us all to get it but it seems on a plain reading of the description that that is not the case.[/quote]
Too many contradicting posts.
If what your saying is true than EB has been broken since the beginning of time and/or was changed in the patch. Our avoid rate was around 18% pre-jump with our avoidability stat when we believed EB was not working so IS may actually still be good evasive boost. But this is too many assumptions. So here are my questions for all, if they can even be answered:
1) With 0 SP in EB and IS what is our chances of avoiding a hit?
2) What [b]is[/b] the animation I should see with "EB" being successful?
3) What [b]is[/b] the animation I should see with "IS" being successful?
4) What does our avoid rate increase to with max EB and 0 IS?
5) What does our avoid rate increase to with max EB and max IS? If applicable.
6) What would our avoid be with 0 EB and max IS?
7) Concrete clarification on which skill adds to avoid and which is a dodge rate aka block skill.
8) If one skill does increase avoidabilty by a percentage, how does that affect our avoid rate? Answer can possibly be answered in questions 4 and/or 5.
Thanks.
From what I concluded from Tespia, Maplestory is boring regardless. That's just an opinion though.
oh sorry now i see it.
[quote=chao195]@Fcroaonlk: is the the one your talking about?
http://www.basilmarket.com/forum/2203677/0/Marksman_Ascension_Skill_Build.html[/quote]
No. That one is fine for him, but the math isn't behind it. In the body of this thread is my build.
@Fcroaonlk: is the the one your talking about?
http://www.basilmarket.com/forum/2203677/0/Marksman_Ascension_Skill_Build.html
Haste stacks on top of the passive 30% speed increase from 1st job right? So with haste you have 160% speed?
[quote=bluebomber24]So does EB stack with IS or not?[/quote]
No idea. IS didn't seem to be working for me. Even if it does though, it's a pain to cast, and isn't that good IMO. I don't recommend maxing it until 19x or maybe 18x
[quote=chao195]So are we getting better ideas for skill builds or are we still in the dark?[/quote]
Yes, I would use the skill build in the main thread.
So does EB stack with IS or not?
So are we getting better ideas for skill builds or are we still in the dark?
[quote=Fcroaonlk]Yes. Because of that, spawns will appear in front of you, ruining the pin, and he will stun you. It won't be IMPOSSIBLE with EP but it won't be as nice...[/quote]
Well then 0 EP for me and 0 IS too...kind of a shame our new skills besides SL kind of come with a catch..
(for my own benefit, my skill build up to level 161)
4th job - 126 total SP
10 US
30 SE
30 Snipe
30 MMB
1 Pierce
15 SL
3rd job - 151 total SP
20 Concentrate
20 FP
16 DB
15 Puppet
15 Blizz (or 20)
15 MB (or 10)
20 AE
20 Strafe
10 EB
What's the deal with 2nd job? 7 SA to match up closely with Booster?
[quote=NineCrimes]Does E. Pup. ruin BGA because it kills the little spawns or is it some other reason?[/quote]
Yes. Because of that, spawns will appear in front of you, ruining the pin, and he will stun you. It won't be IMPOSSIBLE with EP but it won't be as nice...
Does E. Pup. ruin BGA because it kills the little spawns or is it some other reason?
I used DB in the Dojo, it doesn't knock-back enemies...
On the bright side, [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STe77BQ0_iw]Concentrate stacks with attack buffs![/url]
I haven't played maple for a while but I was chosen for Tespia so I shall test it.
[quote=UnagiLOL]Does snipe do more damage then it used to?(yes I know it has 40% PDR now, I'm talking about over time since it's cast time is longer)[/quote]
Yes it hits more. Something that was a little confusing on extractions and stuff is the "added delay". [b]The skill effect is longer, but snipe doesn't take any longer to use[/b]. So yes, it is stronger now.
[quote=bilbo3105]One final one on that topic. Now that we've established EP doesn't auto-aggro, the only ways that it will pull monsters is if we attack, and then puppet (e.g. LHC, bottom, attack BWs, puppet on platform above. BWs walk around aimlessly under BWs).
OR
if we puppet and it attacks monster.
Is that right?[/quote]
Yes, that is correct.
[quote=bilbo3105]If we look at the 2nd of those two possibilities (Puppet and it attacks), in what direction can puppet attack other monsters. By which I mean, can it attack just in a linear fashion, i.e. across a platform, or can it attack up and down, or the whole 360 degrees?[/quote]
It's range isn't super, I doubt any plats are short enough for it to attack up and down. Will check later though.
[quote=bilbo3105]The other thing I just need a bit of clarification on is EB and IS.
So my understanding is that EB still can increase our chances of avoiding an attack, but merely in terms of avoidability, not a flat dodge rate a la Shadow Shifter. Then, when that procs, or in other words we miss due to our avoidability stat, we get 100% crit for the next second.
Now I'm getting the impression that IS causes us to miss but it behaves more like a 'dodge' or 'block' in that we don't get the 100% crit bonus from EB procing as it didn't actually proc. On our screen, does IS's dodge register just as a good old fashioned 'miss'?
If that is the case, does the % chance of IS come first and then our avoid second? So, if we had level 30 IS, and the 30% dodge chance didn't proc, could we still miss due to EB/our natural avoid, and if we did would we only then be able to obtain that 1 second critical chance?[/quote]
There is almost no way to figure this out, besides going to the dev's (I think). Other Tespia-ers may figure this out, but I can't . I think it's safe to say that IS will not affect our EB dodge / allcrits.
[quote=bilbo3105]Finally, I saw some people saying that they were yet to see that 1sec 100% crit. It may be due to server lag. If the countdown of 1 second begins as soon as you 'miss' being hit, it would a) take about that to press attack again and b) the server lag can warp the sense of time between client and server side commands.[/quote]
When I had 0 IS, every time I was missed, I got all crits for the next second.
[quote=NuclearWaffles]okay question! does this spirit link give us a good boost in dmg? what abour concentrate. lets say i have a range of 15k clean and hit maybe 50-60k on my crit arrows, how much will this improve and what skills will help my dmg the most?[/quote]
See what Bilbo said. Also see the main thread for my skill build.
If ePuppet's range is the size of the exp bar then its range is 150%.
Dragons Breath isnt really worth it but i think post Jump it will cuz i think u can oin them with Dragons Breath in Spleigemens Park :O
o.o
hey im tryin to make a mm for jump can u tell me the new skills we get and wat they do?
@bilbo3105: So let me see if understand what your saying.
1st 10us
2nd Max MB
3rd MS
4th 11/21 pierce
and if i want too somewhere in there i can put 9 points is se.
[quote=bilbo3105]@NuclearWaffles
It is generally a toss up between SL and SE in terms of DPM. MMB and US are clearly better and MMS is too for the amount of points it costs to max (I think) if you are fighting monsters at LHC or bosses.
Concentrate is just a 3rd job skill that you will definitely max so its not a big issue. From memory it adds +20 w.atk.
With Level 29 SE and 1 SL (assuming level 29/30 MMB):
with 65% crit of (1.35+1.79)/2 (=average of 1.57) = 37.05% damage increase. +1% from Lvl 1 SL, total damage increase of 38.05%
With Level 30 SL (assuming level 29/30 MMB):
with 45% crit of (1.35+1.5)/2 (=average of 1.425) = 19.125% damage increase. +15% from SL, total damage increase of 34.125%
With Level 9 SE & Level 21 SL (assuming level 29/30 MMB):
with 55% crit of (1.35+1.59)/2 (=average of 1.47) = 25.85% damage increase, with + 11% from SL, total damage increase of 36.85%
If we assume a MM will have 9 SE and 1 SL before either maxing SE or SL, we can say that they get a 6.725% damage increase from Level 9 SE and +1% increase from level 1 SL. (Totalling 7.725%)
It will be an increase of 11.2% damage (37.05-25.85) by getting SE to 29, and an 10% increase (11%-1%) in damage by spending the remaining 20 points on SL.
So, assuming my attempt at math is right, SE > SL in terms of DPM.
Therefore, unless one needs HP desperately, you shouldn't get any SL until you have [i]some[/i] SE, i.e. at least Level 9. Once you obtain Level 9, you should on paper finish SE before getting more SL, but again, if you situationally need the HP or status resist or def etc. consider SL.
Ultimately its a pretty small difference.
I personally would go for SE because its helpful to parties, which will be a big part of your training experience in levels 120-160.[/quote]
So what your saying to do is max SE after you max US and MB?
EDIT: See thread.
So IS and EB did stack for one person, like imo it should. More testing please <3
[quote=shenronx13]Seems like it. Honestly, I kept plopping it right in the middle of mobs just for the pacifying effect and using US or pierce. Extra dmg + they don't attack with ranged moves. Seems to work out pretty well for me. I can test it as soon as Tespia decides to love me again and let me on.[/quote]
The reindeers at LKC wouldn't attack me even if I didn't have EP on. I don't think that's EP doing that.
@shenronx13: So you're saying the seal/reduced damage works even if the puppet is not getting hit?
Very interesting.
So even if E. Pup. is just on some random platform away from monsters, it reduces how much damage monsters do to you?
@ALL. I'll be answering most of these questions and updating these threads tomorrow, but tonight I have to spend time with family . Good comments and questions all!
@shenronx13: @__@! Thank jebus our rush skill finally works. We were the only ones whose kb skill didn't work at LHC :<
Does the EP attack based on touch damage too?
So what skills did you not max besides DB in 3rd job?
But IS' dodge chance /does/ stack with EB, right? Even if it doesn't activate the crit chance?
@Masinko: Lol. I actually like ur ign tbh.
[quote=Alilatias]1) Illusion Step's evasion chance works exactly like Shadow Shifter, complete with animation and F2. However, when Illusion Step's evasion triggers, it will not trigger the 100% crit for 1 second effect. I ran multiple tests on this. Don't know if this is intentional or a bug.
2) DB in LKC: Don't know. There's one Marksman in the SouthPerry Tespia guild online right now, but he's afk.
3) Haven't really tested Elite Puppet much yet. Will get around to doing that soon.
Oh, on another note... The Future Ereve stronghold mobs were changed like in KMS, but it is still a party play area. Hm...[/quote]
@ number 1, wtf, that better be glitch.
[quote=bluebomber24]I don't like your IGN.[/quote]
My IGN doesn't like you or your IGN. o___0
EDIT: JK, i like your archer update infos.
[quote=Skularach3]I think i have the answer to #3. i read somewhere that when puppet is summoned it aggros anything within an 800% range of where it is placed. Granted i have no idea how wide an area 800% range is, but i still hope this helps lol[/quote]
800% would be bloody huge. This is 400% range, the range of Sharp Eyes: http://www.southperry.net/maplerange.php?ltx=-400&lty=-300&rbx=400&rby=300&size=1024
Based on videos I saw ePuppet attacks within a 150-180% range.
[quote=Masinko]I'm downloading Tespia right now, and obviously I'm gonna make a marksman on it XP.
I'll put up some changes (mainly Spirit Link and Puppet) and I might even put up a video on it later.
I'll update my post as I observe more changes too . [/quote]
I don't like your IGN.
I'm downloading Tespia right now, and obviously I'm gonna make a marksman on it XP.
I'll put up some changes (mainly Spirit Link and Puppet) and I might even put up a video on it later.
I'll update my post as I observe more changes too .
[quote=Edit1]Just got into tespia, I'm using the following Build:
20 Critical Shot
15 Archer Mastery
11 Arrow Blow
15 Double Shot
20 Mastery
20 Final Attack
20 Booster
10 Soul Arrow
10 Physical
15 Eagle
10 Double Jump
11 Iron Arrow
3rd Job, Maxed Everything except for Dragon's Breath.
So, In tespia, you can't ask Cody to level past 130, which kinda sucks... I can't check out the full features, but w/e. I'll try getting to them.
[/quote]
Eh...I only care about ePuppet. But will await the answers.