General

[quote=Lateralus]This thread is full of sarcasm and arrogant remarks. These kind of threads never end well, and I suggest that everyone stop posting before you are all banned. @TS: Creationists believe what is said in the Bible, that the earth and all things were created by God. Regarding your segment about what the users of Basil believe, I personally believe that God had a role in starting life some how. Perhaps S/He started off the Big Bang, or created the first cell. Regardless, the arguments are futile and needn't be discussed. Arguing over this subject solves nothing! People are going to believe what they believe. Numerous posts on a Maplestory forum will not change anyone's views or beliefs. I say this as a gay catholic.[/quote]

Finally, dude I've been waiting for someone like you for a long time. Note to most posters, I didn't aim for a religious flame war, I was looking for a simple answer to a probably simple question, and hoped that the answer will help other Basilers get a better view on Creation/Bible science.
I'm an Atheist and sure that I disagree with most religious statements but that wasn't the point of this thread, so please stop burning each other from both sides atheist and religious.

Again thanks man, I was going for a bigger view on the process of the actual study, but hopefully this post opened people's mind a little more about the intention of this thread.

This thread is full of sarcasm and arrogant remarks. These kind of threads never end well, and I suggest that everyone stop posting before you are all banned. @TS: Creationists believe what is said in the Bible, that the earth and all things were created by God. Regarding your segment about what the users of Basil believe, I personally believe that God had a role in starting life some how. Perhaps S/He started off the Big Bang, or created the first cell. Regardless, the arguments are futile and needn't be discussed. Arguing over this subject solves nothing! People are going to believe what they believe. Numerous posts on a Maplestory forum will not change anyone's views or beliefs. I say this as a gay catholic.

[quote=ReLaX]Satisfied ? [/quote]

And the world makes sense again

[quote=dimo]Insert Jesus riding a dinosaur picture here http://farm1.static.flickr.com/172/431306643_528c65a6b3.jpg[/quote]

Satisfied ?

Insert Jesus riding a dinosaur picture here

[quote=javacola]most scientists reconcile their faith and their careers choosing not to believe in a deceitful creator (read: [b]God didn't put evidence of evolution on planet earth to test people's faith[/b]). Even Stephen Jay Gould was religious. That being said, I think most creationists believe that all fields of science (geology, volcanology, bacteriology) that contradict Genesis developed from their creator's will and mankind is just too dumb to comprehend how it is all possible.[/quote]

Because a loving father would send [b]millions[/b] of his children to hell, simply to test them if they believe in his existence or not.

Makes sense.

[quote=vlbe]she was making a reference to medicine healing a person: you taking medicine helps you, not anyone else. you thinking that you are being cured helps you, not anyone else.[/quote]

True, but she obviously do also believe that it helps other persons. And if we have to go that much into detail, then she also said that it helped 10000 times more/faster than medicine.

But regardless, if thats what you mean by "prayer works", then sure.

[quote=vlbe]why was that so funny? if anything, it's rather amusing to see that you think scientists believed that the earth was 4.6 billion years old for the past 60 years. scientists haven't come up with a definite age of earth; their numbers have always been fluctuating.. who knows if they'll change that number again?
we also do not reject the ideas of dinosaurs having existed before. if you did your research, you would know that the bible talks about prehistoric creatures.. refer to the book of job for references.[/quote]

Since 1953 we have had a steady and consistent view of the age of the earth. That is practically 60 years of a consistent same age view without "fluctuations".

[quote=vlbe]as for prayer being more effective than medicine, you can call it a christian belief, but even doctors have mentioned how the mind enhances healing.[/quote]

Oh boy, there's a huge diference. Prayer is suppose to help both others and yourself. The power of the mind only help yourself to heal better in certain instances.

[quote=xxLaythxx]what exactly are you trying to say o.o[/quote]

That I do not consider holy texts as good sources, neither for morals nor scientific inspiration.

[quote=xxLaythxx]Well think about it.

How can anything be created by itself.... Think hard.
Things don't just pop out of no where...

Ask yourself. How could the Sun, Stars, Earth, Humans, Nature and Everything be created from nothing.
There has to be a 'Creator.' God made everything including us. He gave each and everyone one of us a Soul.

There is no way that this Universe created itself. God made this Universe.

Source: The Holy Quran[/quote]

Woaw, what a reliable source.. Atleast it is newer than the bible :]

[quote=myrdrex]What do you debate? Against 'new earth' creationist views? If so that's a pointless debate due to the overwhelming scientific evidence against it. The only possible case for it is that 'god tricked us', which is impossible to prove or disprove.

If, however, you debate the possibility of a greater being/something being responsible for creating the universe as we know it, then I'd be happy to argue either side of that debate.

The more I learn about quantum mechanics, the more a case is made in my mind regarding the shear wonderous, seemingly mystical nature of the substance of the universe and the initial conditions immediately before, during, and after the big bang. The bias towards needing an 'observer' to collapse wave functions and turn probabilities into reality makes a plausible case that the 4 dimensions we know as this universe are nothing more than something observed/created by some unknown higher dimensional being/intelligence/thing.

Of course arguing for a old man sitting atop a cloud planting dinosaur bones and handing out stone tablets becomes impossible to prove, and all science argues against it.n But any argument that claims to prove that there's no greater intelligence/extra dimensional observer(s) also goes against even the most modern scientific theory. The best science out there predicts all sorts of extra dimensions, with hints no more disproving than proving that having an observer helps... So I'd be hard-pressed to be so certain than modern science holds anything close to the answers of the fundamentals of the universe and what happened to precipitate the big bang.[/quote]

Mostly creationists who do not accept evolution, because biology is what I have my interests within. Other than that I debate religions, at rare occasions philosophical issues of a creator. I never debate to attempt to disprove God, the most close thing I get to debate such a thing is to debate why such beliefs are without any kind of sound reasoning.

[quote=ReLaX]
I've done that for years now, and I've debated tons of creationists around the internet, at various churches even at my work. Please, let us debate it if you're so confident.[/quote]

What do you debate? Against 'new earth' creationist views? If so that's a pointless debate due to the overwhelming scientific evidence against it. The only possible case for it is that 'god tricked us', which is impossible to prove or disprove.

If, however, you debate the possibility of a greater being/something being responsible for creating the universe as we know it, then I'd be happy to argue either side of that debate.

The more I learn about quantum mechanics, the more a case is made in my mind regarding the shear wonderous, seemingly mystical nature of the substance of the universe and the initial conditions immediately before, during, and after the big bang. The bias towards needing an 'observer' to collapse wave functions and turn probabilities into reality makes a plausible case that the 4 dimensions we know as this universe are nothing more than something observed/created by some unknown higher dimensional being/intelligence/thing.

Of course arguing for a old man sitting atop a cloud planting dinosaur bones and handing out stone tablets becomes impossible to prove, and all science argues against it.n But any argument that claims to prove that there's no greater intelligence/extra dimensional observer(s) also goes against even the most modern scientific theory. The best science out there predicts all sorts of extra dimensions, with hints no more disproving than proving that having an observer helps... So I'd be hard-pressed to be so certain than modern science holds anything close to the answers of the fundamentals of the universe and what happened to precipitate the big bang.

[quote=Plebe]Debate about what?[/quote]

The issue here, you present your empirical evidence, I present mine, we discuss which position explains the evidence the best.

[quote=Plebe]Read the bible[/quote]

I already have. Some passages many times.

[quote=Plebe]realize evolution is wrong. Its that simple, theres no need to debate.[/quote]

If I had to "realize" evolution was wrong, then I'd had leave everything called reason, intelligence, rationality and similar aspects.

Jeez, another comedian!

[quote=Plebe]We dont reject dinosaurs or any of the other things. They were alive the same time as humans about 6,000 years ago.[/quote]

If you're talking about birds, then sure, if you're talking about Dinosauria which is saurpods & theropods, then no :]

[quote=Plebe]Also, pastors and religious leaders are much more intelligent then a "doctor" or "scientist".[/quote]

Good joke :]

[quote=Plebe]Prayer can heal a person 10000 times faster then modern medicine can[/quote]

Most of the survey's says otherwise.

[quote=Plebe]and if you would simply google creationism you would realize that it just makes sense and evolution is completely wrong (just like global warming)[/quote]

I've done that for years now, and I've debated tons of creationists around the internet, at various churches even at my work. Please, let us debate it if you're so confident.

[quote=Qaliz]People did coexist with dinosaurs. They still do, as a matter of fact.[/quote]

Birds ? : D

Rofl rofl rofl! Thanks a lot, you've made my day!

Seriously though, everything you just wrote, has nothing to do with the big bang theory, what you're talking about is abiogenesis. You see, this is what you get out of talking about stuff you don't know anything about. But I'll take my time to respond anyways.

[quote=PsykoxMage]There are roughly 400 billion stars in our Galaxy (and billions of galaxies). Many of these stars have planetary systems.[/quote]

This is fair~

[quote=PsykoxMage]The odds for a single planet, taken at random, to be at just the right place and the right time for life, are very low (the exact number is not known -- for this example, I will use 1 in a billion, which is a very low number).
But, if you look at billions of planets, the odds that at least one out of hundreds of billion will be suitable, are very high.[/quote]

Exactly what I though, made up numbers~

But if we should go with some more reliable numbers, then the chance of being in the goldilocks zone, is around 1%. Which means that around 500 million planets in our galaxy is in the habitable zone. And in the entire universe, then that number increases to 5x10^19 in the habitable zone.[1]

[quote=PsykoxMage]Let's say that the odds for any given planet are 1 in a billion, that does not sound very good.
0.0000001%

But, if you have a billion planets, the probability that at least ONE has life becomes:

1 - (999,999,999 / 1,000,000,000)^1,000,000,000

(the fraction is raised to the billionth power)

1 - 0.36788... = 0.63212

So, despite the low odds for life on a single planet (one in a billion), the probability for life climbs to 63.2% if you have a billion planets available.

For 4 billion, it becomes 98.2%[/quote]

I think those odds sounds better than I could have imagined.

[quote=PsykoxMage]If we can agree that out of four billion the chance of just one planet came to have life is 98.2%
I would say that it's no comparison to gaching 100 pinks bean chairs. Of course I don't have data on the odds for gaching one, even so the comparison is very elementary and shouldn't need any further explanation.[/quote]

You didn't say just gaching 100 pink bean chairs, you exactly said:" There is a better chance that you will gach 100 pink bean chairs in a row."

I would agree, that you wouldn't need 4 billion tries to get 100 pink bean chairs, but getting them in a row makes it [i]slighty[/i][notice the irony] less likely.

References:
[1]http://theweek.com/article/index/212385/the-milky-ways-500-million-potentially-habitable-planets

[quote=PsykoxMage]I would hate to think that my existence is just a dance of atoms created by a univerise by a billionith of a chance, to find no eternal meaning for living on this earth is too vain for my optimimism.

Also just because this is a MapleStory forum... There is a better chance that you will gach 100 pink bean chairs in a row. Then the chance of the big bang theory having worked out the way it did. Think about it[/quote]

Please, explain how you got to those statistics, and explain exactly how the big bang worked out.

@MaikuX3:
I think that most christians are afraid of seeing something new, like theories and much more
In my church, alot of people are orthodox in their believing, wheter it's the creation of the earth or homosexuality (and much more)

I'm sorry that i can't give you the real answer, because i simply don't exactly know. Maybe try to speak to some of those christians who believ in the Adam and Eve Theory
Or do some research. I wish you good luck

[quote=MaikuX3]Even though I may not belong to the same religion as you, I do believe in a God and I do have the view of a God (or Gods) initiating the formation of our universe and everything in it. So in a sense we can both agree on that. But at the same time, there are MANY Christians ([url=http://www.gallup.com/poll/145286/Four-Americans-Believe-Strict-Creationism.aspx]40% of Americans to be exact[/url]) that believe the story of Adam and Eve to be 100% historical fact. Having at least 120 million individuals in the same country believing that God created everything in its perfect form 6,000-10,000 years ago, we are not talking about a small minority here. I'm completely aware of individuals having doubts on scientific theories due to unanswered questions or missing links. But I really want to know the mindset of individuals who truely believe in a fundamental interpretation of Genesis (as opposed to metaphorical like most Catholics). I really want to know why they reject the idea of the world being about 4.6 billion years old, reject the idea of tyrannosaurus rexs, reject the idea of neanderthals, or ANY type of fossil that is more than 10,000 years old. Especially when there is much more than a general consensus of doctors and scientists that accepts these basic archeological and geological facts.[/quote]

Most of those I've met do actually not reject Rex or Neanderthals, they do however believe that all dinosaurs were herbivores and that neanderthals were human.

Chritianity attempts to side with science and history; Obviously, the existence of Dinosaur bones for example are too hard to ignore. Therefore, you will have many, rather extreme creationists going as far as to say that people lived and co-existed with dinosaurs to explain their existence.

According to conservapedia, the evangelical encyclopedia for example, they state that dinosaurs were created on the 6th day of creation; Odd, given that the bible never mentioned it.

http://www.conservapedia.com/Dinosaur

@ImFunInBed: I don't see a reason why, it's a legitimate question that the answer to it won't be only helpful (in one way or another) to me but to other Basilers as well.

Edit: @Koleda you misunderstood the question, you're correct about the part that it's not "how did the world begin" but it's "how does biblical science work", I admit I was misleading a bit when I called it creation science but I meant to how it works not the theory itself.

OK I guess I made kind of a mistake, when I said "creation" science, I didn't know what else to call it. I meant to ask how does biblical science work, not only for the theory to the "making" of man kind. Do you take your facts from the bible? how do you prove the existence of a divine deity? how do you prove heaven? mostly I want to know how do you base your opinions and facts and not the actual opinion/fact.

most scientists reconcile their faith and their careers choosing not to believe in a deceitful creator (read: God didn't put evidence of evolution on planet earth to test people's faith). Even Stephen Jay Gould was religious. That being said, I think most creationists believe that all fields of science (geology, volcanology, bacteriology) that contradict Genesis developed from their creator's will and mankind is just too dumb to comprehend how it is all possible.

[quote=ReLaX]Both big bang and evolution are theories.[/quote]

Thanks for making that clear! I sould've posted that in my qoute. XD

[quote=EenRite]
Methodology of creation science:
- Have a pre-existing conclusion
- Try to find evidence to support conclusion
- Ignore contradictory data[/quote]

You forgot scoffing at evidence and misrepresenting it so that more people will be decieved.

[quote=myrdrex]It's simply asking the same questions that traditional science is trying (and failing) to solve- what is the nature of the universe, and how did the big bang occur.[/quote]

That got me giggling xD

It's simply asking the same questions that traditional science is trying (and failing) to solve- what is the nature of the universe, and how did the big bang occur.

Science hasn't even come close to answering these yet, nor has religions.

The best we have, from a scientific standpoint, is a lot of the quantum mechanics _theories_ floating around. Many of which deal with higher dimensions (such as string theory), many of which require there to be some one or thing acting as an 'observer' to actualize/collapse the wave functions that turn probability into 'reality'.

When you jump down the rabbit hole of quantum mechanics and start to unravel the universe, it actually becomes more mystical and magical. When you deal with collapsing the initial wave functions of the big bang, you simply ask "What observed the Big Bang"?

It doesn't necessairly imply that there's some old dude with a white beard handing out stone tablets- but it does start to imply that what we call the universe could very well be a tiny subset of reality kicked off by the actions of someone or some thing else.

There's absolutely nothing in creation science that contradicts evolution. Only fundamentalists that believe the bible word for word think that the universe was created by a specific God 6000 years ago, with dinosaur bones put there. Creation science, on the other hand, simply says that a God may have kick-started (observed) the whole thing into existence, possibly providing a guiding hand along the way.

We can't prove it, just as traditional science hasn't come close to a unified model.

[quote=Sweax]I am a 'creationist' (i rather name it: christian). I do believe in evolution, it's proven, so it's useless to say that i wasn't there. That would be kind of weird...
But, i think evolution was made by God. Atleast, i believe in it, but some christians don't. That's why there is a lot of discussion between athiests and christians, because every christian has it's own kind of believing. That's why your question can be answerd by alot of questions, so it's a bit hard to conclude your question for yourself.

But what i know about the Big Bang theory (i'm saying this to all basilers) is that it's a theory, so it can be true or not. Same with christianity: It can be true or not. So saying that chirstianity or big bang theory and what is related to it is an onstopping discussion wich will never ends, because both people can't declare there believing.
Example: Christians can say that God exists, but they don't know if that's true. They believe in it, but explain it: No way...
Same for Athiests: They believe (from what i've heard) in The Big Bang Theory. They believe in it, but explain it: No way...
Saying that one of these things are wrong, is useless, because you can't prove [b]all[/b] of your believing.

I'm saying this as a christian. Thank you for reading.[/quote]

Both big bang and evolution are theories.

[quote=MaikuX3]Creation science is disregarding all the biologicial, archeological, and geological evidence to support the world being created 4.6 billion years ago and disregarding that life came from a single cell. Whether or not that cell was created by God has nothing to do with evolution itself.

Which makes me ask a question that I never got a concrete answer from a young earth creationist. [b]Why do you reject the earth's age of 4.6 billion years even though thousands of doctors and scientists around the world continue to prove that age for the earth for the past 60 years?[/b][/quote]

I am a 'creationist' (i rather name it: christian). I do believe in evolution, it's proven, so it's useless to say that i wasn't there. That would be kind of weird...
But, i think evolution was made by God. Atleast, i believe in it, but some christians don't. That's why there is a lot of discussion between athiests and christians, because every christian has it's own kind of believing. That's why your question can be answerd by alot of questions, so it's a bit hard to conclude your question for yourself.

But what i know about the Big Bang theory (i'm saying this to all basilers) is that it's a theory, so it can be true or not. Same with christianity: It can be true or not. So saying that chirstianity or big bang theory and what is related to it is an onstopping discussion wich will never ends, because both people can't declare there believing.
Example: Christians can say that God exists, but they don't know if that's true. They believe in it, but explain it: No way...
Same for Athiests: They believe (from what i've heard) in The Big Bang Theory. They believe in it, but explain it: No way...
Saying that one of these things are wrong, is useless, because you can't prove [b]all[/b] of your believing.

I'm saying this as a christian. Thank you for reading.

[quote=Koleda] it doesn't matter if it was created or evolved that way, it's neat to study it and find out whatever you can![/quote]

It certainly does matter.

[quote=Dranorth]@daniel3b: Did I s-s-stutter? Are you speaking from experience? Have you ever taken this sort of a survey before? I know what I and several of my friends believe. Just being in a church doesn't make people experts at their faith. Many people actually go there to learn something. Just because people in a church say something about Christianity doesn't mean that is how everyone thinks, just like it is in the "real world." There are just as many secular ignorants out there as there are religious ignorants.[/quote]This is going to be the last post I make since this argument is pointless... I never said everyone thinks that way. If you wanna go nitpick there are thousands of other posts on basil, I'm not sorry if I somehow offended you by saying that most creationists don't think life could have come from something nonliving.

God created mankind through billions of years of evolution.

[quote=Jobrjo]First Off, I want so mention that I am a Christian and go to Avondale Church Of Christ. MOst people put denominations and the 1 Church Jesus started in one group. Understand that unfortuantly others will not be saved. We know this from the Bible, not what any man says.

There is so much proof I don't know where to start. Look up 'apologetics express'. Hopefully this will help lead you to the truth.[/quote]

That didn't really explain how creation science works, rofl. Thats apologetics, which is almost just as sad.

[quote=Dranorth]@daniel3b: You said that they believe life couldn't come from something nonliving, when actually they don't believe life could come about by itself, randomly. You retold an idea falsely, maybe unknowingly, maybe not. But either way, that'd get you in trouble. Even if this doesn't show up on your college application, I don't see any reason why it'd be ok to be deceitful just because we're in a forum.[/quote]I'm being deceitful? Go to a church and ask the people there if life could have come from something nonliving, most of them will say no.

[quote=Arias]Creation "Science"?

Is that what they're calling it these days?[/quote]
Science = The study of...

Creation Science = The study of... the Creation.

Makes sense to me.

I personally don't address my religious beliefs, nor will I say them, but I will say that that is better than being a bible bookworm who ignores real evidence.

[quote=Dranorth]Misquoting an idea so that the meaning is changed can get you kicked out of college, can't it?[/quote]What did I misquote? I was never even trying to quote something in the first place. And is this thread supposed to be showing up on my college app? o.o

[quote=daniel3b]From what I've heard, most people that believe in creationism believe life couldn't possibly have come from something nonliving, so they decide there must be an eternal life form that created all other life.[/quote]

On the other hand, most creationists are christian literalists who believes adam was made out of dirt. Last time I checked dirt was non-living, don't ya love the irony ?

From what I've heard, most people that believe in creationism believe life couldn't possibly have come from something nonliving, so they decide there must be an eternal life form that created all other life.

It's like real science, except you take every theory,fact,law or emperical evidence away that does not fit well with the bible.

From drdino.com (Kent Hovind, the decieving creationist's page):
"No apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and science, can be valid if it contradicts Scripture."
http://www.drdino.com/about-cse/statement-of-faith/