General

@vivabasura: they have like 15 HPS or so with vanq, around 20ish or so if you count monkeys/kishin I think

[quote=ninjaoftennis]Hmag: 15-20m lines at the BARE MINIMUM, 20-30m lines recommended.
Hellux: 22-27m lines or so.
Cvell: 35m lines or so is minimum
other CRA: less than cvell derp

90%+ PDR for vellum. Above posts already sort of tell you some of the int requirements and such for some of the bosses.[/quote]
arent kannas the mage with most hps, as a bam i can solo hmag with average 13m lines so i think kanna would do quite good with 15-20m
dont have input for the others since i don do crap i have 75%pdr da free to play life

[quote=kinsok]Alright, how much int and pdr and boss would be required to begin doing cra, hmag, hellux, and cvel on a kanna?[/quote]

Hmag: 15-20m lines at the BARE MINIMUM, 20-30m lines recommended.
Hellux: 22-27m lines or so.
Cvell: 35m lines or so is minimum
other CRA: less than cvell derp

90%+ PDR for vellum. Above posts already sort of tell you some of the int requirements and such for some of the bosses.

They'll all be able to kill it rather easily, so why bother to argue about this. Though post revamp, I/L looks by far the most fun, the Lightning Sphere skill gets an amazing buff, which is for me enough reason to be really excited about it. My opinion is a bit biased as I main an I/L, but the skill is really sexy <3 [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TDpVYsRvJg]Check it out[/url] [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWIr18h6wd8]Woo[/url]

@loxiona Alright, thanks man you have been very helpful

@kinsok hard to say since other factors such as crits could change the numbers.
Personally I've been able to solo hardmag and hellux with 11k int and around 220% boss, 90%ignore def. I haven't really taken much interest in cra bosses though so i can't say much for those, though i don't doubt that a kanna could probably solo some of the cra bosses at this point. Chaos vellum bare minimum for kannas i've been told is hitting maybe 35m lines, but as far as stats they vary too much to put a number on them.

@loxiona Alright, how much int and pdr and boss would be required to begin doing cra, hmag, hellux, and cvel on a kanna?

[quote=kinsok]So how are Kanna's looking in the midst of all these changes?[/quote]

By themselves on elemental resist bosses they are on par with the other jobs at the minimum. Regular bosses they are still pretty good, with plenty of potential for damage because of their higher hits/s. Kannas have actually been implicitly buffed from updates such as starforce and the patch that fixed indigo flash drops on cvel, so they have been growing stronger even though the job has not changed.

If we get the haku party skills like the other versions have got, Kannas will become offensive support gods in a party of mages: their Haku Blessing party skill would have the potential to double to triple the dps of other mages in the party.

@jerry5000, It costs like 1.5b for a class change at my level, slightly annoying but worth it for the sake of science. I'll test it out sometime later, a little busy right now with classes and whatnot, but I'll figure it out eventually.

[quote=duriel123]@jerry5000,
I just saw the video, sure enough those are the results you claim. I am going to have to agree with you there, if you had a non-zero %matk and %boss the only possibility is that amp gives final damage.

I still cannot explain my experiment though, I know I didn't record it and hopefully you can take my word for it for now. I clearly did not see a 50% range increase nor damage increase from leveling amp. If amp really does give final damage, should I get 50% damage boost and range boost regardless of my %matk and %total? Furthermore the fact that my %range increase and %damage increase matched so well with the %matk hypothesis is too convenient.

I know this might seem like a very strange conclusion, but could it be possible that I/L and F/P amp are different? I know this would be incredibly strange, but having seen your results and having faith in my own data, this is the only conclusion I can come too. I really am not trying to be "a sore loser" here, I am legitimately confused.

Tomorrow I am going to do a class switch to FP and test this out again, then switch back the next day and retest on I/L. I'll be sure to record it this time. All I am going to do is check the range before and after leveling elemental amp, I think we can trust the visual range at this point since in both of our cases the % range increase reflected the % damage increase. If I see a discrepancy between classes that would be a huge, if not, I must have somehow messed up my initial testing.

Been a pleasure working with you good sir, I know its only natural to present opposing hypothesis in an argument, but there are too many people on the internet that become needlessly toxic and I applaud you nether less.
It is 3am over here, and I will take my leave for the day. (I'm so screwed in the morning....)[/quote]

Sry for the late reply, i m always willing to discuss this kind of topic with the right ppl.
I'd still like to point out something here.

%boss contributes nothing to your range so you can ignore it.

if i had 0% m.att, then the result would be totally pointless.

(112+50)/112-1=44.64%
(124+50)/124-1=40.32%
(136+50)/136-1=36.76%
(145+50)/145-1=34.48%
(154+50)/154-1=32.47%

as you can see from here, the %marginal dmg from the bonus 50%m.att diminishes when ur true %m.att increases.

At 0% m.att my dmg boost will be exactly 50% (150/100-1) from the bonus 50% m.att, this really cannot tell anything, it can be 50% total dmg, 50% final dmg or 50% m.att.

Job exchange cost way too much meso, i wont think 300m+ is a pocket money to me, so you can always test urself when nexon giving free job advance coin.

So how are Kanna's looking in the midst of all these changes?

@ievanmaster, Hmm that would indeed explain my results. I'll be sure to remove the link skills next time I try it out, thanks for pointing that out.
And yea you are right, @jerry5000 not only saw a 50% range increase, but a 50% damage increase as well even with the boss damage factored in. It could not possibly be total damage in his case.

@duriel123

Just something to note:
[quote=duriel123]4. kanna/DA link skill does not grant %total, it is a separate multiplier.[/quote]

That is in fact false, they [i]do[/i] give %total damage, I'm assuming you have both at level 2, so you actually had 20% total during the experiment if you had kanna/da links on.

170/120= 141.67%

However... this still doesn't explain why one person got %final and the other got %total from the same skill... very interesting indeed. I was pretty positive myself that element amp. gave %final damage as well (before Nexon decided to give it an universal name).

Calculation gods over here^

@jerry5000,
I just saw the video, sure enough those are the results you claim. I am going to have to agree with you there, if you had a non-zero %matk and %boss the only possibility is that amp gives final damage.

I still cannot explain my experiment though, I know I didn't record it and hopefully you can take my word for it for now. I clearly did not see a 50% range increase nor damage increase from leveling amp. If amp really does give final damage, should I get 50% damage boost and range boost regardless of my %matk and %total? Furthermore the fact that my %range increase and %damage increase matched so well with the %matk hypothesis is too convenient.

I know this might seem like a very strange conclusion, but could it be possible that I/L and F/P amp are different? I know this would be incredibly strange, but having seen your results and having faith in my own data, this is the only conclusion I can come too. I really am not trying to be "a sore loser" here, I am legitimately confused.

Tomorrow I am going to do a class switch to FP and test this out again, then switch back the next day and retest on I/L. I'll be sure to record it this time. All I am going to do is check the range before and after leveling elemental amp, I think we can trust the visual range at this point since in both of our cases the % range increase reflected the % damage increase. If I see a discrepancy between classes that would be a huge, if not, I must have somehow messed up my initial testing.

Been a pleasure working with you good sir, I know its only natural to present opposing hypothesis in an argument, but there are too many people on the internet that become needlessly toxic and I applaud you nether less.
It is 3am over here, and I will take my leave for the day. (I'm so screwed in the morning....)

[quote=duriel123]@vivabasura, Once again, as I have tried to explain so many times on this forum, when calculating your RELATIVE damage increase, none those factors matter. Assuming your base atk, base stat, % stat, %total, and %boss are constant, and the only thing that has changed is your %matk, the damage increase is purely proportional to your relative damage increase.
@jerry5000,
Before this gets tricky, let me formally state my hypothesis before we start misunderstanding each other.
-The skill elemental amplification gives a boost of 50% matk, not 50% final damage nor 50% total damage.
-I am not saying anything about whether or not the bonuses from amp are "useless" or not, this is a purely quantitative argument.

I don't know if this is necessary, but given the amount of text I am going to type, I want to make it clear that I have nothing personal against you(that not I feel offended at this point in time) and hope we can maintain a civil discussion for the sake solving the problem. That aside I will go into my argument in detail.

[b]Part 1 - The Range formula and damage formula[/b]
Let try to agree here, at the most fundamental level.

Range = k(mainstat + (1/4)secondary stat)(total atk) k is some arbitrary constant

This is the universal range formula (cept for xenon) and we can probably agree here.
For most cases we can approximate the range formula to be the following due to the fact that mainstat >> (1/4)secondarystat

Range = k(mainstat)(total atk)

Decomposing the above equation,

Range = k(base int)(100% + %int)(base matk)(100% + %matk) *I simply replaced mainstat with int since we are mages here

Let me emphasize here, that if we have some range 1 with known initial conditions (base matk, base int, %matk, %int) and then change only 1 of those factors, the relative change in range depends only on the initial value of the condition changed and the amount it is changed by.

IE: assume we increase %matk by 10% and keep everything else the same,

range 2 / range 1 = k(base int)(100% + %int)(base matk)(100% + %matk) / k(base int)(100% + %int)(base matk)(100% + %matk + 10%)
=(100% + %matk)/(100% + %matk + 10%)

I am pretty sure we can agree to all of this but I put this section here to be sure.

Next,

Damage per line(non-boss) = (skill multiplier)(Range)(100% + %total)(PDR multiplier)

PDR multiplier is a function of only 2 variables, your %PDR ignore, and the monster that is being attacked.

If I use the same skill on the same monster with the same PDR ignore,

Damage per line 2 / Damage per line 1 = (Range 2) / (Range 1)

[b]Part 2 - Objectively Stating my results[/b]
Here is purely what I did and what I saw, the raw data if you will.

First I reset all of my skills on an I/L mage and then re-levled every single skill other than
1. Elemental amplification
2. Arcane aim

I then recorded my unbuffed range.

I proceeded to hit a random scrapyard mob with "chain lightning", taking screenshots and recording the lines that came out from chain lightning. I have 100% critical when using chain lightning.
I calculated my average damage per line.

I then leveled elemental amplification to level 10.

I observed my range, recorded it, and noted that my visual range increased by 40%.

I proceeded to hit the same mob with "chain lightning", doing the same and recording the numbers.
I calculated the new damage per line.

I noted that my new average damage per line increased by 40%

[b]Part 3 - Analysis of the observed data[/b]

Without thinking at all, there are a couple possibilities for the elemental amplification effect.
1. Raises your %matk by 50%
2. Raises your final damage output by 50%( a separate multiplier)
3. Raises your %total damage by 50%

I hope we can agree that these are the only possibilities.

Firstly I will attempt to disprove #2

This is actually quite simple, if #2 were the case, I would have saw a 50% increase the damage. The reason I say this is because I attacked the exact same mob with the exact same %PDR ignore with the exact same total int with the exact same base matk with the exact same %total. The only thing that changed was leveling elemental amp. and if it did truly give 50% then I would have observed a 50% damage increase, instead I observed a 40% damage increase, so #2 is out of the question.

I will now attempt to disprove #3

When attacking the mobs, I had 0% total damage.
1. None of my equips have a %total line
2. Storm magic did not propagate.
3. Arcane aim was not leveled.
4. kanna/DA link skill does not grant %total, it is a separate multiplier.
Therefore if I saw a 50% total damage increase, I would see a direct 50% damage increase in my lines instead of 40%. This is by the same argument as before (same monster, same stats, etc).

I have 24% matk from my equips, if I received a 50% matk bonus,

Relative line damage increase = Relative range increase = range 2 / range 1 * 100% = (174% / 124%)*100% = 40% (give or take)

This is consistent with my observations.

Thus I conclude that elemental amp gives 50%matk

__________

This ends my experiment formatted better than my previous post.

Now I am aware that you have observed different results from me. I am confident that my procedure is correct and am curious as to why we have different results. If possible, I would like to see a simple video of checking your range before and after leveling elemental amp. I will try to get a mule account and do the same.[/quote]

the video has been uploaded.

i totally agree wiht part 1 and 2.

not the part3, a single comparison tells nothing. sh3t happens but sh3t not always happens. it maybe just a coincidence.

you can pssobly try more wiht+2 +5+7 on ele amp.

feel free to say anything only kids get offended when other ppl are expressing dif opinions in a discuss.

@vivabasura, Once again, as I have tried to explain so many times on this forum, when calculating your RELATIVE damage increase, none those factors matter. Assuming your base atk, base stat, % stat, %total, and %boss are constant, and the only thing that has changed is your %matk, the damage increase is purely proportional to your relative damage increase.
@jerry5000,
Before this gets tricky, let me formally state my hypothesis before we start misunderstanding each other.
-The skill elemental amplification gives a boost of 50% matk, not 50% final damage nor 50% total damage.
-I am not saying anything about whether or not the bonuses from amp are "useless" or not, this is a purely quantitative argument.

I don't know if this is necessary, but given the amount of text I am going to type, I want to make it clear that I have nothing personal against you(that not I feel offended at this point in time) and hope we can maintain a civil discussion for the sake solving the problem. That aside I will go into my argument in detail.

[b]Part 1 - The Range formula and damage formula[/b]
Let try to agree here, at the most fundamental level.

Range = k(mainstat + (1/4)secondary stat)(total atk) k is some arbitrary constant

This is the universal range formula (cept for xenon) and we can probably agree here.
For most cases we can approximate the range formula to be the following due to the fact that mainstat >> (1/4)secondarystat

Range = k(mainstat)(total atk)

Decomposing the above equation,

Range = k(base int)(100% + %int)(base matk)(100% + %matk) *I simply replaced mainstat with int since we are mages here

Let me emphasize here, that if we have some range 1 with known initial conditions (base matk, base int, %matk, %int) and then change only 1 of those factors, the relative change in range depends only on the initial value of the condition changed and the amount it is changed by.

IE: assume we increase %matk by 10% and keep everything else the same,

range 2 / range 1 = k(base int)(100% + %int)(base matk)(100% + %matk) / k(base int)(100% + %int)(base matk)(100% + %matk + 10%)
=(100% + %matk)/(100% + %matk + 10%)

I am pretty sure we can agree to all of this but I put this section here to be sure.

Next,

Damage per line(non-boss) = (skill multiplier)(Range)(100% + %total)(PDR multiplier)

PDR multiplier is a function of only 2 variables, your %PDR ignore, and the monster that is being attacked.

If I use the same skill on the same monster with the same PDR ignore,

Damage per line 2 / Damage per line 1 = (Range 2) / (Range 1)

[b]Part 2 - Objectively Stating my results[/b]
Here is purely what I did and what I saw, the raw data if you will.

First I reset all of my skills on an I/L mage and then re-levled every single skill other than
1. Elemental amplification
2. Arcane aim

I then recorded my unbuffed range.

I proceeded to hit a random scrapyard mob with "chain lightning", taking screenshots and recording the lines that came out from chain lightning. I have 100% critical when using chain lightning.
I calculated my average damage per line.

I then leveled elemental amplification to level 10.

I observed my range, recorded it, and noted that my visual range increased by 40%.

I proceeded to hit the same mob with "chain lightning", doing the same and recording the numbers.
I calculated the new damage per line.

I noted that my new average damage per line increased by 40%

[b]Part 3 - Analysis of the observed data[/b]

Without thinking at all, there are a couple possibilities for the elemental amplification effect.
1. Raises your %matk by 50%
2. Raises your final damage output by 50%( a separate multiplier)
3. Raises your %total damage by 50%

I hope we can agree that these are the only possibilities.

Firstly I will attempt to disprove #2

This is actually quite simple, if #2 were the case, I would have saw a 50% increase the damage. The reason I say this is because I attacked the exact same mob with the exact same %PDR ignore with the exact same total int with the exact same base matk with the exact same %total. The only thing that changed was leveling elemental amp. and if it did truly give 50% then I would have observed a 50% damage increase, instead I observed a 40% damage increase, so #2 is out of the question.

I will now attempt to disprove #3

When attacking the mobs, I had 0% total damage.
1. None of my equips have a %total line
2. Storm magic did not propagate.
3. Arcane aim was not leveled.
4. kanna/DA link skill does not grant %total, it is a separate multiplier.
Therefore if I saw a 50% total damage increase, I would see a direct 50% damage increase in my lines instead of 40%. This is by the same argument as before (same monster, same stats, etc).

I have 24% matk from my equips, if I received a 50% matk bonus,

Relative line damage increase = Relative range increase = range 2 / range 1 * 100% = (174% / 124%)*100% = 40% (give or take)

This is consistent with my observations.

Thus I conclude that elemental amp gives 50%matk

__________

This ends my experiment formatted better than my previous post.

Now I am aware that you have observed different results from me. I am confident that my procedure is correct and am curious as to why we have different results. If possible, I would like to see a simple video of checking your range before and after leveling elemental amp. I will try to get a mule account and do the same.

[quote=archm0onl]-toaru kagaku no maplestory-

after reading this i realized i might be wrong, nexon was never correct in their translations[/quote]

Nexon's translation has always been misleading, and they too lazy to update it since pre bb.

-toaru kagaku no maplestory-

[quote=jerry5000]you should think more read less. i literally laughed when i saw maplewiki, the translator probably cant even read korean.

too bad southperry is down for some reason,but anyways pre red it was something like final dmg, post red its total dmg but never %m.att.[/quote]

after reading this i realized i might be wrong, nexon was never correct in their translations

[quote=duriel123]@jerry000 I am afraid I have some bad news for you.

Just did a quite test, so I basically hit mobs with chain lightning a couple times and recorded the lines (arcane aim was not leveled)
30 lines were recorded in each case

Here are the 30 lines without elemental amp:
6393522
6401006
6287912
6299187
6269270
6281248
6306603
6411376
6849059
6568910
6377262
6568910
6509425
6378095
6544557
6508257
6544557
6606904
6770440
6758095
6668807
6758095
6933807
6496151
6614836
6230365
6624836
6755839
6817606
6316898
The average is 6338887.533333333

Here are the lines with elemental amp.
9276091
8704185
8479945
8558191
8408376
8761963
9045496
8861042
8936389
8900951
8932734
8900951
8993391
8463981
9019331
9051358
9105067
8682241
9228111
9130960
8910166
8519673
8617194
8508119
8809572
8676317
8777513
9255672
8770833
9108311
8780227

The average is 8875738.2

% damage increase = (8875738.2 - 6338887.533333333) / (6338887.533333333) *100% = 40.0204%

My equips have 24% matk in total, if I receive a 50% matk boost, then the %damage increase I should receive is (174% / 124%) - 100% = 40.3225%

The matches almost exactly with the experimental results.

Further more, there is a range increase when you level elemental amp.

My range before elemental amp was : 1114658
My range after was : 1564119

(1564119 - 1114658) / (1114658) = 40.32%

Once again, this directly supports the fact that elemental amp gives 50% matk.

I have over 200% boss, so it is impossible that amp gives %total. Further both the range and the damage output indicate a 40% damage output rather than 50%.

In conclusion, I am afraid that unless you can explain these results, you will have to concede that you have stumbled upon false/outdated information and elemental amplification grants 50% matk.[/quote]

If you are planning to tell me bad new at least tell me what skill you were using and what mob/boss you tested your dmg on, it is important.
I'd like to point out somethings here now.

"I have over 200% boss, so it s impossible that amp gives %total. Further both the range and the damage output indicate a 40% damage output rather than 50%."
I can see you tested ur dmg on boss, which is totally a bad example. you have over 200% boss doesnt make the 50% total dmg completely usless.

When they revamped oz i got the rank 2-10 emblem and it has 70% boss, i compared my dmg on gollux with my emblem and with oz emblem, it turns out my emblem is slightly better. (my total boss was 275% or somthing, stat on emblem 13% int and 12%m.att, oz emblem stat= 70% boss)

yes the %total dmg effect diminishes but doesnt make 50% dmg useless and from ur result it showsthat u gained around 40% dmg boost which is slightly lower than 50% too.

so yeah i tested myself on my f/p later, and it proves me its a final dmg rather than %total dmg.

Video Prof: https://youtu.be/3sIZDQIMKpk

Here are the brief summary i got from my result.

Damage tested on: RA mob
Skill used: Energy Bolt
Character Stats: 0% total dmg and 39% m.att in total from weapon potential/link/card/blah.(since im doing it on normal mob here % boss doesnt matter at all)

Stage 1: Element Amp+0, Arcane Aim+0

Range: 816932-859928
Damage Observed: around 4.7m per hit upon critical hit. (rough estimate didnt bother doing avg, if u insist i can do it for you or you can do it urself)

Stage 2: Element Amp+10, Arcane Aim+0

Range: 1225398-1289892
Damage Observed: around 7.2m per hit upon critical hit. (rough estimate didnt bother doing avg, if u insist i can do it for you or you can do it urself)

Results:
(1225398-816932)/816932=50% to be exact.
(1289892-859928)/859928=50% to be exact
(7.2-4.7)/4.7=53.19%

If it were true m.att%,
(139+50)/139-1=35.97%

However, this doesn't tell anything just like ur result, one stage cant tell you anything. It can be totally coincidence.

Next I will update some intermediate stages to see how ele amp affects ur range.

Stage 1: Element Amp+0
Range: 816932-859928

Stage i2: Element Amp+2(forgot to unequip leafre set but doesnt matter here)
Range: 898625-945920

Stage i3: Element Amp+3: 3*5=15
Range: 939471-988917

Stage i4: Element Amp+4: 4*5=20
Range: 980318-1031913

Stage i5: Element Amp+5: 5*5=25
Range: 1021165-1074910

Stage i6: Element Amp+6: 6*5=30
Range: 1062011-1117906

Stage i7: Element Amp+7: 7*5=35
Range: 1102858-1160902

Stage i8: Element Amp+8: 8*5=40
Range: 1143704-1203899

Stage i9: Element Amp+9: 9*5=45
Range: 1184551-1246895

Stage 2 or Stage i10: Element Amp+10: 10*5=50
Range: 1225398-1289892

It isnt really necessarily to calculate all stages so lets just calculate 2 from the above ones: Si3 vs S1 and Si7 vs S1.

Si3 vs S1:
(939471-816932)/816932=14.99%
(988917-859928)/859928=14.99%

If it were true m.att%,
(139+15)/139-1=10.79%

Si7 vs S1:
(1102858-816932)/816932=34.99%
(1160902-859928)/859928=34.99%

If it were true m.att%,
(139+35)/139-1=25.18%

Result:
ele amp is a final dmg boost instead of true m.att% or total dmg%.

[quote=duriel123]@jerry000 I am afraid I have some bad news for you.

Just did a quite test, so I basically hit mobs with chain lightning a couple times and recorded the lines (arcane aim was not leveled)
30 lines were recorded in each case
[/quote]
broo, how does that show anything, there are so many things that change your range in game you cant expect it to be an exact 50% with your experiment heck did u even turn off your damage link skills and matk character cards
think a more accurate experiment would be to compare A. EleAmp on max level(+50%) B. EleAmp level 6 (+30%) + bam dark aura (+20%), if range is the same comparing those two then its not magic%, do it for science

Trick Question Blaze wizard. Jump attacking is bae

@jerry000 I am afraid I have some bad news for you.

Just did a quite test, so I basically hit mobs with chain lightning a couple times and recorded the lines (arcane aim was not leveled)
30 lines were recorded in each case

Here are the 30 lines without elemental amp:
6393522
6401006
6287912
6299187
6269270
6281248
6306603
6411376
6849059
6568910
6377262
6568910
6509425
6378095
6544557
6508257
6544557
6606904
6770440
6758095
6668807
6758095
6933807
6496151
6614836
6230365
6624836
6755839
6817606
6316898
The average is 6338887.533333333

Here are the lines with elemental amp.
9276091
8704185
8479945
8558191
8408376
8761963
9045496
8861042
8936389
8900951
8932734
8900951
8993391
8463981
9019331
9051358
9105067
8682241
9228111
9130960
8910166
8519673
8617194
8508119
8809572
8676317
8777513
9255672
8770833
9108311
8780227

The average is 8875738.2

% damage increase = (8875738.2 - 6338887.533333333) / (6338887.533333333) *100% = 40.0204%

My equips have 24% matk in total, if I receive a 50% matk boost, then the %damage increase I should receive is (174% / 124%) - 100% = 40.3225%

The matches almost exactly with the experimental results.

Further more, there is a range increase when you level elemental amp.

My range before elemental amp was : 1114658
My range after was : 1564119

(1564119 - 1114658) / (1114658) = 40.32%

Once again, this directly supports the fact that elemental amp gives 50% matk.

I have over 200% boss, so it is impossible that amp gives %total. Further both the range and the damage output indicate a 40% damage output rather than 50%.

In conclusion, I am afraid that unless you can explain these results, you will have to concede that you have stumbled upon false/outdated information and elemental amplification grants 50% matk.

[quote=chiprel]@jerry5000 Sorry to being so nitpcky, but yea thats what I was trying to get at. It would be accurate to replace your original statement with, "If you have a high range, regardless of how much matk you have, you will see a large range increase from 50%matk".[/quote]

1st i already editted b4 you post, 2nd, regardless how much range you have 50% m.att is a huge boost, thats just the fact, 50% cost tons to cube and i only have 40% m.att in total.

ppl need stop thinking that True 50% m.att isnt a big deal at all.

if mages really have those m.att% and 400att(more like compared to those who dont have self buff att% and the rest class that have way less att from weapon), why they dont have significant high range at low total int?

there are many similar 1h weapon wiht close multiplier.

and yeah hopfully ur test result will be the same as expected instead of showing im wrong. i dont bother job advance and blah, too lazy.

@jerry5000 Sorry to being so nitpcky, but yea thats what I was trying to get at. It would be accurate to replace your original statement with, "If you have a high range, regardless of how much matk you have, you will see a large range increase from 50%matk".

But yea I do appreciate the information regarding elemental amp, I thought it was %matk just from the skill. Now I can properly calculate my %total/boss to %matk ratio.

[quote=duriel123]It is actually quite important for making decisions on how to upgrade your equipment. When you deicide between %boss or %atk, icoging or priming, etc, you always consider the relative increase. The reason for this is because there are many times when calculating the absolute value of the range increase is unnecessary since you can get the relative range increase directly from stat/atk/%matk/%stat/%boss ratios.[/quote]

edit: i see wut u mean here, u wanna see if the range increase in % as %m.att increases so you can see if its really % m.att like potential

[quote=jerry5000]i mean when ppl saying range that means they are referring to the one you can get from stat chart.

do you really bother telling how much % of range increase (e.g. 25% increase) instead of just saying my range increased by 25 flat no %.[/quote]
It is actually quite important for making decisions on how to upgrade your equipment. When you deicide between %boss or %atk, icoging or priming, etc, you always consider the relative increase. The reason for this is because there are many times when calculating the absolute value of the range increase is unnecessary since you can get the relative range increase directly from stat/atk/%matk/%stat/%boss ratios.

[quote=chiprel]It has an affect on the absolute value, but not the relative value.

-Range is proportional to total matk
-Total matk is proportional to (100% + %matk) and base matk

Range = k(basematk)(100% + %matk) k is an arbitary constant

Lets consider the relative range increase with a gain of X %matk

Range 2/Range 1 = k(basematk)(100% + %matk+ X%matk)/(k(basematk)(100% + %matk)) = (100% + %matk + X matk) / (100% + %matk)

Note that this ratio is independant of base matk.

Of course if you differential the range function with respect to total %matk, the gradient is proportional to your base matk, thus the absolute value of the range increase is affect by base matk but not the relative range increase.[/quote]

i mean when ppl saying range that means they are referring to the one you can get from stat chart.

do you really bother telling how much % of range increase (e.g. 25% increase) instead of just saying my range increased by 25 flat no %.

edit: i see wut u mean here, u wanna see if the range increase in % as %m.att increases

[quote=jerry5000]and base m.att def have an effect on you relative range increase, you can test it by unequipping ur heart and equipping it to see if tehre s difference in range, on condition that ur heart have att.
[/quote]
What you are counting is not the relative range increase, but rather the absolute value of the range increase.

[quote=jerry5000]and base m.att def have an effect on you relative range increase.[/quote]
It has an affect on the absolute value, but not the relative value.

-Range is proportional to total matk
-Total matk is proportional to (100% + %matk) and base matk

Range = k(basematk)(100% + %matk) k is an arbitary constant

Lets consider the relative range increase with a gain of X %matk

Range 2/Range 1 = k(basematk)(100% + %matk+ X%matk)/(k(basematk)(100% + %matk)) = (100% + %matk + X matk) / (100% + %matk)

Note that this ratio is independant of base matk.

Of course if you differential the range function with respect to total %matk, the gradient is proportional to your base matk, thus the absolute value of the range increase is affect by base matk but not the relative range increase.

[quote=chiprel]Well you have to keep in mind that base matk has no effect on relative range increase, only the base %matk matters. But I see what you are saying.
That said it is plausible that for whatever reason the %matk from amp doesnt show in your range(I doubt it though). The sure fire way is to experiment with the damage output. I'll probably do it sometime today with the free sp reset. Only problem is that I only have 24%matk from equips, going to have to do quite a bit of trials to make this reliable.[/quote]

if it works like m.att% from weapon potential then it will and must be shown in range.

and base m.att def have an effect on you relative range increase, you can test it by unequipping ur heart and equipping it to see if tehre s difference in range, on condition that ur heart have att.

also ppl already done enough extractions and blah on this and it works like total dmg.

[quote=jerry5000]no need to do experiment, all mages have 204+ m.att clean from cra weapon, at 15 star it should be 400+, and 50% att should be A SIGNIFICANT RANGE BOOST regardless wut you are if u know what im saying. yet only kanna has fake range.[/quote]
Well you have to keep in mind that base matk has no effect on relative range increase, only the base %matk matters. But I see what you are saying.
That said it is plausible that for whatever reason the %matk from amp doesnt show in your range(I doubt it though). The sure fire way is to experiment with the damage output. I'll probably do it sometime today with the free sp reset. Only problem is that I only have 21%matk from equips, going to have to do quite a bit of trials to make this reliable.

[quote=chiprel]We could always do a simple experiment. Get a decent amount %matk on a char (maybe even use BaM aura's) , un-level amp through class change, hit some mobs and collect the results, level amp, repeat, and compare the data.[/quote]

no need to do experiment, all mages have 204+ m.att clean from cra weapon, at 15 star perfected it should be 400+, and 50% att should be A SIGNIFICANT RANGE BOOST regardless wut class you are if u know what im saying. yet only kanna has a fake range.

my kanna with no potential weapon at 8k int=2m2m, while evan/f/p wiht 8k int+godly weapons= 1m range only.

[quote=jerry5000]well it was pre red, after red evan still kept this as separate multiplier while for explorer mages its just 50% total dmg, as for how exactly it can be calculated i dont really know, but im 100% sure its not 50% m.att like weapon potential.[/quote]
We could always do a simple experiment. Get a decent amount %matk on a char (maybe even use BaM aura's) , un-level amp through class change, hit some mobs and collect the results, level amp, repeat, and compare the data.

[quote=duriel123]@jerry5000, I actually never new amp was a separate multiplier, thanks for the info.[/quote]

well it was pre red, after red evan still kept this as separate multiplier while for explorer mages its just 50% total dmg, as for how exactly it can be calculated i dont really know, but im 100% sure its not 50% m.att like weapon potential.

@jerry5000, I actually never new amp was a separate multiplier, thanks for the info.

@cxter: it says clearly increase magic attack of YOUR MAGIC SKILL how is that hard to understand. jesus, the translation was always like this but the effect is %dmg rather than %m.att from POTENTIAL.

F/P skill details pre red:
http://www.basilmarket.com/MapleStory-Guide-Fire-Poison-Mage-Guide-459.html

http://imgur.com/fL2t2VT

clearly it was 150% magic attack of your magic skill b4, does that mean after red f/p was nerfed badly coz they lose 100% m.att?

this is just how things work.

ive posted the description of magic amp above.

The following link shows how it actually works from web cache coz i cant get access to southperry for some reason.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.southperry.net/showthread.php%3Ft%3D62604&strip=1&vwsrc=0

http://imgur.com/joTIAIZ

same old translation but not same effect as m.att% from potential.

this is evan's elemental amp skill atm, does it mean evan is king of all mages coz it has 150% m.att?

http://imgur.com/2DhIJ7F

the only reason they kept this translation is because by the time the gave us mage this skill, there wasnt % dmg buff nor potential and they never bother changing it later on.

I mean if u really played those mages you should know that only kanna have crazy amt of range coz of the insane amt of m.att%, while all other mages dont get enough range like kanna, or even non mages.

You really think with 50% m.att from self buff and 400+att at 15 star weapon wont Boost your range SIGNIFICANTLY on a F/P,i/L or evan? You really think nexon is this nice?

ppl theres days on basil totally should browse southperry more and stop acting like you know everything without doing any research.

[quote=jerry5000]@cxter: how abt you stop thinking that all mages have significant amt of M.att% like kanna?[/quote]

coming from the guy who believes that Magic att % is actually 50% of your total damage...

@cxter: how abt you stop thinking that all mages have significant amt of M.att% like kanna?

[quote=jerry5000]@jacob9874: how abt you read it and tell me if increase magic attack of YOUR SKILL means %matt[/quote]

How about you stop being so ignorant.

@jacob9874: how abt you read it and tell me if increase magic attack of YOUR SKILL means %matt

[quote=jerry5000]@archm0onl: you think more read less. i literally laughed when i saw maplewiki, the translator probably cant even read korean.

too bad southperry is down for some reason,but anyways pre red it was something like final dmg, post red its total dmg but never %m.att.[/quote]

Why don't you open your skills window and read element amplication

@archm0onl: you should think more read less. i literally laughed when i saw maplewiki, the translator probably cant even read korean.

too bad southperry is down for some reason,but anyways pre red it was something like final dmg, post red its total dmg but never %m.att.

[quote=jerry5000]i dont think magic amplification gives 50%matt, it should be 50% dmg.
[/quote]

[url=http://maplestory.wikia.com/wiki/Element_Amplification]read more, think less[/url]

i dont think magic amplification gives 50%matt, it should be 50% dmg.
also F/P is never good at vellum, dot duration and ME has nothing to do with how fast u can kill cvellum.

whoever says f/p is best at vellum u probbaly never play an I/L b4.

for boss like cvellum/gollux, IL is way stronger than FP.

As much as i hate to say it bishops will be on top after nerfs.

we know for sure f/ps are kings at the moment
after rebalances we have this nice chart https://itzdarkvoid.wordpress.com/2015/09/09/kms-v-1-2-240-boss-dpm-chart/
but thats pre elemental nerfs, i think the dps after those nerfs would look more like second chart (minibosses one) except elemental mages would climb some places up because of their new % final damage
to me it looks like it will be a battle between f/ps, bams and kannas for the most fund efficient mage but ofc its a chart mages have their pros and cons on different bosses such as luminous kicking gollux, bams being untouchable at magnus or bishops laughing at lotus
also i see the telecast change mostly a mobility improvement, its not a big damage addition unlike bam's shocktele which adds 8 lines of damage and has no delay at all, kms notes clearly say teleport's delay will be decreased after skill usage, not deleted

@archm0onl Yea, FP definitely can't compare to Bishops after the nerf, but 40% final damage is still quite a bit better than the 50%matk. I really hope we get those DoT buffs

@chiprel: 50%matk is about 20-30% final damage, depending on how much %matk you have from potentials (60%~110%)
it's the difference between skill %damage. 365%x8 is roughly 60% higher than 250%x7, making Angel Ray an intrinsic 60% final damage boost comparing to Paralyze (by intrinsic, it's multiplicative to other final damage boosts rather than additive, making it even more powerful).

definitely not kinesis lol