General

[quote=superior1997]ok. so did u include beholder's revenge in this?[/quote]

Read the thread, the text isn't for decoration you know.

[quote=Bomber321]I missed too much. I feel like ive been in a black hole when it comes to post BB warriors, @__@.
I better read every page of the discussion.[/quote]

That won't help you at all. It's not like reading this thread changes anything.

I missed too much. I feel like ive been in a black hole when it comes to post BB warriors, @__@.
I better read every page of the discussion.

Ill help ya test numbers on Guitarocam if you want, Kira.

I know I never hit 120, but 112 will give us some decent 3rd job info.

don't be a ....

ATM I don't care about DPM
How long will it take from 84-120 post BB?

[quote=AdroxNight]How many hours has this been stuck in processing?[/quote]

Something like 52hrs now.

this is very impressive
glad someone took the time to do full on calculations for the 3 warrior jobs

this should be saved for future reference
+like

[quote=AdroxNight]Could I see a SS or Video?[/quote]

db's flash bomb can blind bosses, other skills can't

[quote=SilverFoxR]No offence, Kira, but I still believe that knowing what the DPM charts of all classes is not a good thing.

Classes have a hard enough time doing what they want in-game as it is without being shunned for "better" classes and now that they're giving all classes the ability to do everything they want, branding them with the DPM charts is just going to get them shunned all over. We really don't need this elitism BS and the DPM chart will do it all over again.[/quote]
Not having DPM charts/calcs =/= elimination of elitist BS. Without looking at accurate calcs and examining mechanics thoroughly, what's to stop a Shad fan boy from saying "Oh Heroes stank, we can do the same DPM and our survivability is better! All Shads in, Heroes gtho!"? xD

[quote=SilverFoxR]No offence, Kira, but I still believe that knowing what the DPM charts of all classes is not a good thing.

Classes have a hard enough time doing what they want in-game as it is without being shunned for "better" classes and now that they're giving all classes the ability to do everything they want, branding them with the DPM charts is just going to get them shunned all over. We really don't need this elitism BS and the DPM chart will do it all over again.[/quote]

I don't want only the DPM, I want to know the mechanisms and situation stuff too.
DPM was just the easiest to find out/calculate.

No offence, Kira, but I still believe that knowing what the DPM charts of all classes is not a good thing.

Classes have a hard enough time doing what they want in-game as it is without being shunned for "better" classes and now that they're giving all classes the ability to do everything they want, branding them with the DPM charts is just going to get them shunned all over. We really don't need this elitism BS and the DPM chart will do it all over again.

Well if it is true I can see Panic being more like Snipe then? Especially if it ignores PDR + 40% chance to ignore it anyways would mean it quite often hits Max Damage :]

Eh, it wouldn't really matter though if Panic/Coma can be well used in 4th Job, majority of the time you don't want to have to recharge the 10 Orbs + everytime you cast Panic/Coma, Combo Attack recharges with a shorter duration. Unless they change how Combo works I don't see Panic/Coma an effective alternative, or unless they make it so Rush/Coma is effective or Monster Magnet charges Combo.

[quote=kruimel0]Any update on sacrifice speed already?[/quote]

See, I uploaded the [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de5WsdSG1wY]video[/url] like 20 hours ago, but YouTube still hasn't finished processing it.

Updated Paladin lists to include Threaten applied multiplicatively.

[quote=taleko]+1 for Kira and Adro for doing this, if you guys want me to help with anything or look over it just ask.[/quote]

Only +1? How cheap. xD

[quote=kirayamato26]They are Legends. =P
Seriously though, I have no experience with Arans, sorry.[/quote]
IT ENDS WHEN I DO MY COMBO SMASSSSSSSSSSH! GUHHHHHHH!

That was the extent of my knowledge on Arans. xD

[quote=frozensas]where are the aran?[/quote]

They are Legends. =P
Seriously though, I have no experience with Arans, sorry.

[quote=kruimel0]Jesus that's big.

Is this recorded on KMS btw? Or GMS? Not that I think it will be changed....[/quote]

Well, Fraps records things live, with barely any compressing done. GMS, I, unfortunately, don't have access to KMS(T).

Lol, it seems that the encoder doesn't like it. >_<

[quote=yodelman]@cyaltr u'd kinda be wasting ur time. kira has already done what u are trying to do so u'd just be wasting ur time...
@kirayamato26 on sp it shows that fast 4 is 660ms delay so im pretty sure its right. and how would u make a video proving its not? 0.o[/quote]

SP can be wrong, nothing is perfect and correct 100% of the time.
Anyone with the least bit of analytical skills should be able to calculate the speed, therefore delay, of a skill from watching a video of it.

I just recorded the video, 4 weapons, spamming Sacrifice until the 100 hit cap was reached.
9.18GB, currently encoding it to shrink it down.

@cyaltr u'd kinda be wasting ur time. kira has already done what u are trying to do so u'd just be wasting ur time...
@kirayamato26 on sp it shows that fast 4 is 660ms delay so im pretty sure its right. and how would u make a video proving its not? 0.o

[quote=kruimel0]About Threaten, the first option you say seems very unlikely, as many mobs have a PDR lower then 20%, which would result in a PDR of -10% or -5%. It's either capped or multiplicative, and multiplicative seems more likely to me.

Nice @ that video ^^[/quote]

Capped or multiplicative, they are both equally likely in my opinion.
Capped is probably faster for a computer to calculate, while multiplicative takes less lines to code.

[quote=cyaltr]@kirayamato26: No, Dps is with one hit. Dpm is howmuch u can hit in 1 minute. or did i just waste all that time.....[/quote]

Damage Per Second, Damage Per Minute.
DPH is the damage per hit.

[quote=cyaltr]With the help of my 11th grade brother, ive gotten SOMEWHAT close to the conslusion of most dps and dpm

DPS
1st: Drk/Hero with slow 7 sword/axe 2hand
2nd:Hero with fast 1hand sword
3rd: Paladin

DPM
1st: Amazingly, it comes out as PALADINS WITH A FAST4 SWORD! beating heros by 10.2856 seconds of dmg they produce.
2nd:Heros with 1hand sword, with 2hand just about 2 seconds better than drk.
3rd: Unfortuanly, drk, is the slowest of the classes so it gets last... but it was just luck with the heros.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Conclusion.

Overall winner is PALADIN with fast4 sword and HERO aswell! Drk comes last because of the only once highest and the slower spears and stuff. Don't ask why arans weren't included and how long it took.

PM ME FOR THE SKILLS WE TESTED WITH.[/quote]

What is this, I don't even.
DPM and DPS are the same thing, just with a factor of 60.

[quote=kruimel0]Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiit.... Threaten....

Threaten is a very nice thing you say here. Threaten reduces an enemy's defence by 20%. I thought it would be PDDamage, but it must be PDRate, as there is no PDDamage anymore. That means that Pallys will be awesome at Pink Bean or so, as it will reduce PB's 70% PDR to 70%*80% = 56%. That's huge.

I guess an mech's EX-7 works just like this, although I still have to search if it works on bosses or not (and this isn't relevant at all in this thread anyways =P)[/quote]

I believe Threaten was changed to -30% attack/defense.
Since PDD isn't used for anything, we can assume that it affects PDR.
Now the problem is if it's -30% literally (e.g. 70% - 30% = 40%) or -30% multiplicatively (e.g. 70% * (100% - 30%) = 49%).

[quote=yodelman]wait so is 660ms delay for sacrifice with a PSB or a sky ski? cause if its with a sky ski then kira's list was off and drks damage should go a lot higher if you put a PSB's delay into it.[/quote]

PSB. I'll go make that video right now (my computer decided that it wanted to be reformatted last night >_&lt.

Edit:
[quote=ApplShinR]Two things:

1) Does Combat Order reduce PDR by 40% or negate it 40% of the time? I know the result ends up the same, but it's still a bit different.
2) Does FA charge orbs?[/quote]

1. Neither. It raises the SP for every non-zero 4th job skill by 2. Combat mastery, on the other hand, ignores PDR 40% of the time.
2. Yes it does.

wait so is 660ms delay for sacrifice with a PSB or a sky ski? cause if its with a sky ski then kira's list was off and drks damage should go a lot higher if you put a PSB's delay into it.

I would join... but I really do hate math...

[quote=AdroxNight]I think I saw one video like that posted, but I forgot where and was too busy to do the calculations at the time... I'll get back to you when I find it again.

And for the weapon comparisons, I would personally just compare equally scrolled reverse weapons. Sadly, I think a NRW is too weak to be compared to a Executioner, especially with the advanatage of a 2h sword being weakened and the fact that a Executioner can be used with a shield.[/quote]

Please do.
I probably won't be able to do any calculations until later (much later) tomorrow, my desktop decided that it was time for a reformat 5 minutes ago. >_<

[quote=kruimel0]Ah I see what you mean. Do you have video proof of this? The description let it look like it's this, but Maple's descriptions aren't the best for calculating DPS....

Also, forget about the calculations in that last PM, I just wanted to get the point across to you ^^
Evenmore, I'm off for today, sleeping =3 School tomorrow =/

@Above: can you say what equip would be fit for an aran if you compare it to a +2 30%, +4 60% scrolled clean avarage NRW for heroes/pallys?[/quote]

The video that I posted earlier has proof for AC being 200%, but unfortunately, I've yet to come across video proof for Enrage, but I can't really think of any other way that it would function.

[quote=kruimel0]Yea indeed, I am familiar with arans, but not with GMS arans. I would give arans a 112 atk PSB or so, but that is really unfair in GMS terms... D=

Also, about your first point a long time ago, you said that I was wrong for just adding enrage's 60% to AC's 100% instead of multiplying it, but that both gives 160% D=[/quote]

AC is calculated as a 200% multiplier, just as Enrage is calculated as a 160% multiplier:

BS = 210% * 3 * 200% (AC) * 160% (Enrage) = 2016%

[quote=kruimel0]Aight, I must agree with you. Nice findings.

EDIT: Thanks for making that video.
and what would you like me to use for arans then? I thought reverse weapons were very unacceptable for arans, and using a lv 64 maple karstan (the only other semi-high leveled normal speed PA) seems quite wrong for me too.[/quote]

I actually don't have an answer to that, I'm not familiar with Arans, but I heard that weapon speeds matter a lot to them. I see plenty of Arans around using a Karstan even at like level 15x. =X

Brandish is not a problem, it's 220%/hit.
I think she used Brandish (less screen crowding) and finishers so that it can provide a good experimental sample for us, players from other versions, to analyze. Just saying a video is bad because Brave Slash wasn't used is quite shallow minded, in my opinion.

Regardless of the PDR, she hits about 100K/hit average, and one of the hits went up to 120K. It would be impossible to even touch 106775 if AC was 175%, as would hitting a 120K if Combat Mastery did not ignore PDR.

Edit:
[quote=kruimel0]2. Could be, but I'd like to see a video of that. Until then, I use that SP's page, which shows 660 for spped 4.
3. I find it very distracting to see loads of decimals, thus I let excel indeed show none, or 2 if it's necessary (f.e. Infinity).
4. Daaaaaang you're right. Really strange I never saw that. Thanks. And why is an Arcglaive unfair if you compare it to Reverse weapons? Please go easy with me on this point, I'm from eMS, I don't know anything about prices or so about CWK stuff.[/quote]

2. I'll make a video later.
4. An Arcglaive costs something like 400 ~ 500mil clean, quite hard to make too. With that amount of Mesos you are looking at like a 125 ~ 130 attack NRW probably.

@kirayamato26 can u repost ur updated dps list? i can't download the file for some reason. or put a picture up or something

and SE is the 1 skill that multiplies with max crit so it would be
Hero with SE: 5%*20% = 26% crit chance, 20% min crit damage, 50%*30% = 95% max crit
DrK with SE: 35%*20% = 62% crit chance, 35% min crit damage, 95% max crit

[quote=kruimel0]So. Okay. Nice. You have a load of percentages. The problem here is though, that a DrK's damage range will be MUCH higher then a Paladin's and Hero's one.

Pally's and Hero's will have more or less the same equips though (they can use the same equips at least).

Few more things:
- Does hero's Combat Mastery ignore 40% of the PDR or does it ignore total PDR for 40% of the time? Of course it ends to the same avg DPS, but it's still a difference, and it hasn't been proven which of the two it is.
- Does Adv. Combo really work like 10 orbs * 10% each orb = 100%, or 5 orbs from normal combo and 5 orbs from adv. combo, which ends up to 5*5%+5*10% = 75%? Unknown as far as I know.

I know I used your way on my DPS chart too, but at least I said at least 3 times that I know that there's a chance I'm wrong. You seem to be very sure of your case, which I'm not (on your case, that is)[/quote]

Let me address your concerns one by one.

Dark Knight damage range: I have already stated that I will produce another set of DPM % Lists with the weapon multiplier factored out, if you don't get what this means let me illustrate it for you with a simplified formula:

Let w represent the weapon multiplier.

DPM = w * (4 * STR + DEX) / 100 * Total W. Atk * Skill % * Multipliers * (1000 / Delay (ms) * 60)

The DPM % has this:

DPM % = Skill % * Multipliers * (1000 / Delay (ms) * 60)

So, if I apply the weapon multiplier:

Weighted DPM % = Skill % * Multipliers * (1000 / Delay (ms) * 60) * [b]w[/b]

This way, it would be like comparing them with a weapon multiplier of 1.0 because the end result is still:

DPM = 1.0 * (4 * STR + DEX) / 100 * Total W. Atk * Skill % * Multipliers * (1000 / Delay (ms) * 60) * w
= (4 * STR + DEX) / 100 * Total W. Atk * Skill % * Multipliers * (1000 / Delay (ms) * 60) * w

Combat Mastery and AC: [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyZxJtiTvn0]This video[/url] should cover all your concerns about the two skills, it has quite a nice sample of damage, critical, and finishers.

The only thing that I'm unsure about in my calculations is how critical hits work, which Adrox and I are currently figuring out.

Edit:
[quote=kruimel0]
1. sorry, you were right. You could've PMed me anyways.
2. http://www.s0uthperry.net/showthread.php?t=3217. Crusher (level 16-30), fast 4. 930ms does exist.
3. What other better term do you expect? I hope it's clear to everyone with an IQ of 80 and higher (if he/she knows the pally skills ofc) that I mean charging with 2 charge skills -.-
4. I don't use a PSB anymore, but Sky Skiis for DrK and an Arcglaive for Arans. There's the fairness, as they're all scrolled with 2x 30% and 4x 60%.[/quote]

2. Ok, sorry, I misaligned the categories when I was reading over delays; but do explain this: Sacrifice delay: 660. Sacrifice is the same speed as Fury (tested with 4 weapons), which means that the delay is 720ms, 660ms is fast 5 + Booster.
3. This seems to be right after revealing just about every decimal you hid in the Excel sheet
4. Again, look at point 2. As for the attack, an average pair of Sky Skis with those scrolls would turn out to be 112 attack, I didn't know that Gachapon spat out equips 8 above average. You pretty much defeated your own point about fairness; an Arcglaive is anything but a fair weapon to use in this comparison.

[quote=Skrato]Kira is one of the warrior gods[/quote]

Yeah, the Warrior god of eating too many rice-based foods and getting stomach aches. xD

Didn't they reduce the skill levels to 20 for Fury/Crusher? o_o.

Numbers all make sense, it's pretty darn nice if you ask me - just trying to pry you open!

[quote=jdsingh]I meant it has how do you tell how much Physical Damage Reduction are/is when you atk an monster or is it a fixed amount of dmg? sorry for dumb question again >.<[/quote]

Most monsters have 10%, some monsters have 20%, most bosses have 50%, PB has 70%.

[quote=ApplShinR]@kirayamato26: [quote=me]Sacrifice is way too risky to use at bosses that 1:1

^^You still can't mindlessly spam it at Zak, PB, ect.[/quote]

Yes you can.
If you don't have enough HP, you won't be able to use the skill.
Even with the current Sacrifice (4% recoil), you won't die if you attack with 1 HP.
Give Nexon some credit, they handled these sort of things.

wow, you guys already made a site for it, you work fast kira o_O

[quote=Mancartia]It's still a bit unbalanced, DrKs get a 1.49 multiplier while 1h Heroes/Paladins get a 1.20 multiplier (2h is 1.32). Once you take that out there's just a slight difference in base attack (DrK - 112, H/P - 108 + shield, in the case of Reverse weapons)

DrKs are already kinda ahead at the higher PDR charts, this is kinda an unnecessary boost I guess.[/quote]

I will be generating new DPM % lists today, with the weapon multiplier applied for Spears/PAs (1.49) for Dark Knights, 1H (1.20) for Heroes/Paladins, and 2H (1.32) for Heroes/Paladins.

[quote=Quickjumper7]@adroxnight and @skrato - My opinion and help is obviously not wanted here. And it is also obvious that no one understands what I am trying to say. At that, you win, I will stop posting so you can get on with your work.[/quote]

Actually you are missing the point and not understanding what we are trying to say. For a start there is his equipment bias and various mistakes people have mentioned. Also kira is more experienced in making this kind of calculation for warriors and didn't have to also make the chart for about 15 other classes as well.

@adroxnight and @skrato - My opinion and help is obviously not wanted here. And it is also obvious that no one understands what I am trying to say. At that, you win, I will stop posting so you can get on with your work.

[quote=Quickjumper7]Please forgive me, but I am still choosing to side with kruimel0. He has done a lot more work than you, dealing with every class, and so he will have a lot more mistakes than you. That is just common since. The point of posting his DPS chart is to hopefully give a somewhat decent depiction of post-BB, but more so to get corrections and advice from others. I don't respect someone that goes and complains about all of someone else's work behind their back, completely ignoring the effort and time put into their work. but refuses to help them.[/quote]

One cannot excel at everything.
I've put my time and effort into gathering data from primary sources (videos from KMS(T)).
The way that he calculates DPS is unfair as it has equipment bias. The true way to calculate DPS/DPM is to use percents only.

[quote=rigthouskill]@kirayamato26: it's that only for def though?[/quote]

It adds 34 Weapon Attack when active, and in theory you can keep it up for an entire minute no problem.

Edit:
Oh, do you mean PDR? Since PDD isn't used by any formulas that Fiel has extracted thus far, it is safe to say that it is the only source of defense that a monster has, besides monster skills.

[quote=Quickjumper7]Please forgive me, but I am still choosing to side with kruimel0. He has done a lot more work than you, dealing with every class, and so he will have a lot more mistakes than you. That is just common since. The point of posting his DPS chart is to hopefully give a somewhat decent depiction of post-BB, but more so to get corrections and advice from others. I don't respect someone that goes and complains about all of someone else's work behind their back, completely ignoring the effort and time put into their work. but refuses to help them.[/quote]

I have to disagree with you. Kira hasn't talked at all about other classes, and has got the opposite result to this kruimel person. Kira is one of the warrior gods and has an immense amount of experience above this other person.

[quote=kirayamato26]Trust me, it is just an "armchair expert's guess" as he puts it.

I glanced through the things for 3 classes (Dark Knights, Heroes, Paladins) and I've already picked up MANY things wrong.

1. He added Enrage to AC to get 260%, they multiply to 320%
2. 930ms delay Crusher, this doesn't even exist
3. He pulled dual charging, for the lack of a better term, out of his ass
4. 120 attack PSB vs 114 attack NRW, where's the fairness?

I think there are more things wrong, but these are all that I remember.

Edit:
@Above

Sacrifice ignores the entirety of PDR.
Though, it is not unlikely that Corsairs/DBs/Arans or some other classes may outdo all Warriors on PB even without ignoring PDR.[/quote]

Please forgive me, but I am still choosing to side with kruimel0. He has done a lot more work than you, dealing with every class, and so he will have a lot more mistakes than you. That is just common since. The point of posting his DPS chart is to hopefully give a somewhat decent depiction of post-BB, but more so to get corrections and advice from others. I don't respect someone that goes and complains about all of someone else's work behind their back, completely ignoring the effort and time put into their work. but refuses to help them.

[quote=Quickjumper7]Dude no offense, but you just gave an "armchair expert's guess" on Kruimel0's DPS chart. His chart is actually decent, and it DOES have math. It's not just a list of classes after all. Each class has a page of excel math behind it, and the information and calculations used are reasonable. If you know any real errors that are in his chart, you should inform him, so that he can fix them. If not, than you don't have any reasoning behind your statement.[/quote]

Trust me, it is just an "armchair expert's guess" as he puts it.

I glanced through the things for 3 classes (Dark Knights, Heroes, Paladins) and I've already picked up MANY things wrong.

1. He added Enrage to AC to get 260%, they multiply to 320%
2. 930ms delay Crusher, this doesn't even exist
3. He pulled dual charging, for the lack of a better term, out of his ass
4. 120 attack PSB vs 114 attack NRW, where's the fairness?

I think there are more things wrong, but these are all that I remember.

Edit:
@Above

Sacrifice ignores the entirety of PDR.
Though, it is not unlikely that Corsairs/DBs/Arans or some other classes may outdo all Warriors on PB even without ignoring PDR.

[quote=kirayamato26]PDR is the percent taken off of your damage, the higher the PDR, the lower your damage.
Heroes can ignore PDR at a 40% chance with any attack, while Paladins can only ignore PDR at a 21% chance with Blast.[/quote]

I see. So heroes will be quite good at PB?

[quote=Synapsiis]Kudos for the work.

It's nice to see the raw math behind your calculations instead of an armchair expert's guess n' simplify (*cough* BBstickychartfail). It keeps the dense damage wh0res out and it educates those who truly want to know where they will and will not excel post - BB.

too bad you aren't in Bera. ;o[/quote]

Dude no offense, but you just gave an "armchair expert's guess" on Kruimel0's DPS chart. His chart is actually decent, and it DOES have math. It's not just a list of classes after all. Each class has a page of excel math behind it, and the information and calculations used are reasonable. If you know any real errors that are in his chart, you should inform him, so that he can fix them. If not, than you don't have any reasoning behind your statement.

[quote=rigthouskill]where did the pallys get the 34 w.att from buffs >.>[/quote]

Blessing Armor

[quote=EtherXFayt]Don't quite understand what's going on here. I see numbers, but its too much crap to read through just for an accurate readout of who hits higher naturally. Good math though, I'm really appreciative to see someone doing this with pure math instead of giving them weapons and whatnot that gives them, in some cases, an unfair damage advantage albeit a small advantage. Thank you for this <3
Dark Pride!, Hero Pride!, Pally Pride![/quote]

Thank you for the feedback.

Arans are not included? T_T