General

Personally, I find the idea of iframes to be wonderful. Bucc was my first love in MS because of the idea of it, and I still have not found a class that I like as much as oldschool Bucc. That being said, @tricks122 's words gave me an idea. Think of the coming Mihile revamp, with their 'shield' mechanic:

(numbers are obviously not set in stone)

Active: Swig - Heal 50% of your HP, increase the number of enemies hit by all attacks by 2 and gain a 20% boost to damage for 5 seconds. (15 second cooldown, 0 delay)
(maybe add a damage reduction factor to this?)

Passive: Brawler's Focus - Every second that the Buccaneer does not attack increases your damage by X amount and increases your defense ignore by 33%, stacking up to X times for 3 seconds, starting at the next time you use [insert main attack skill(s) here].

Passive: Thick head/Tough Skin - When using Corkscrew Blow/[insert mobility skills here] and for a short moment afterwards, the Buccaneer gains 75% Damage Reduction from /all/ incoming attacks. If the Buccaneer is hit by damage that would be reduced by this, they gain a stack of Brawler's Focus and reduce the cooldown of Swig by 5 seconds.

Going with the 'drunken brawler' idea, someone swaying around that doesn't necessarily dodge, but takes a lot of hits because their body is built for it/they're numb to the pain. This possibly would make someone want to weave /in/ to the enemy's attacks, rather than away from them. Though I'm honestly a little hesitant about the implementation of an idea like this because (as I said) it's basically ripping off Mihile.

I think a different main attack would be in order to go with this idea, though, but that's also partially because I think their current one is terribly ugly. (It also just doesn't fit with the idea of slow, strong hits) Something along the lines of Jett's nuke punch skill, whatever it's called. I realize that there are likely flaws with this idea, (how much would you have to increase the damage of an attack to give proper compensation for their downtime?) but it is just essentially that, an idea.

EDIT: I also just realized that I bumped a 2 month-dead thread, but *shrug*, if no one responds then I'll throw this in it's own.

@silverfoxr With all due respect, this is a fantasy world, and we already have two fist classes that are fast and fluid; Buccaneer were originally slow and clunky, but they hit hard. If I wanted to play something fast and with finesse, I'd go play a Thunder Breaker or Shade; both are essentially what you want(With a bit of Aran mixed in for your idea), and I'd rather have variety in my classes, rather than 'lore or logic respect'.

Iframes, without a mechanical change, aren't that great anymore; many attacks pierce them, and many obstacles will also damage through them as well. The main aspect of the other skills you mentioned is mobility, and not the iframes they provide, at least for other classes. Taking skills from Shade and homogenizing our play-style to them is a no-go for me; why not just [i]play a Shade[/i] if you want a Buccaneer to have a Shade's play-style? I'd rather classes be different than similar, which is why I think Buccaneers should be slow and heavy hitting, like a drunken pirate tossing a punch at a brawl; it's originally what they were(As in slow and heavy hitting, along with quick hitting 'sucker punches' for Energy attacks, and a bit of Super Saiyan mixed in. That's the style I want, because it's unique and fits the class more than the generic 'Nexon treatment' we would get if Shade and Buccaneer got mixed.

The class shouldn't be re-built into what already exists in other classes. It, and many other classes, should be UNIQUE; when I think about "Warrior", I generally don't think about a Dark Knights(Nor Paladins who use anything but Holy elements), but that doesn't mean the class should be changed to be more 'thematically appropriate'. Buccaneers are not, and should not, become a Shade; if the mechanics change and their numerous issues are addressed, they can be a heavy, durable bruiser class that excels at slow, powerful hits and intricate chains of moves that allow them to remain safe while doing so. And that's something I would love, because it's a lot more unique than Shade, and we really don't need more classes that copy each other.

@tricks122 I see what you're saying and, while I understand, I don't believe that Buccaneers should be, in any way, slow. A fist fighting class should have speed and finesse to it. After all, they're not burdened by a bulky weapon - essentialy [i]they[/i] are the weapon, bodies honed for combat. They shouldn't be slow bruisers in any way. They should be able to find openings, slip in, punish and just as quickly slip out of reach or move onto the next enemy.

At the very least, I think most of a Buccaneer's fighting "style" should come from relatively close-ranged attacks (screw this energy beam nonsense) and being able to slip in/out with skills other fist classes use like Foxtrot and Backdash... or heck, even bring back Backspin Blow as a backwards-dashing skill that even damages enemies. Give those skills the needed I-frames and use them for evasive combat. I DEFINITELY think that the dashing skills (damage or no) should take a page from Shade and let the character cancel animations into them, letting them dodge incoming attacks at a moment's notice. That way, they can be wrecking a boss, see something huge coming, backstep away from the attack, then lunge back in and keep pouring on the hits.

Actually, come to think about it, that could be a useful passive ability... if a Buccaneer successfuly dodges a boss' attack, they get a temporary damage boost against that boss... almost as if they parried or took the boss off-guard.

Anyways, no matter how the class is re-built, I still say the main focus Buccaneers should have is being able to slip in and out of range quickly, essentially dancing around their opponents. That is what I think about when I think "fist fighter", not some slow, beefy dude... that's pretty much what Warriors are for.

@zomgitbeandy Yeah, I guess it's a bit of a perception difference for both of us. Plus, that question is like... so over-done. They only have one Super Saiyan, and that's me!

Jokes aside, it is nice to see some activity in the forums, especially productive activity at that, and it's even better when multiple people chip in.

@tricks122: I suppose since you take a lot of activity into the buccaneer community these threads can be a bit bothersome to your eyes.
I'm in the middle seeing as the buccaneer class is finally getting some attention aside from "do they still have super saiyan."

[quote=zomgitbeandy]Not that I'm contributing to the thread but bruising was @sammi 's idea brought up by me.

I'm also glad bucs getting some attention lately with these revamp idea threads[/quote]

Giving proper credit is contribution; it's nice to know where the idea came from.

Unfortunately, these revamp threads often tend to have a 'Nexon style' system; not all of them do, but in my experience revamp threads are often 'very productive' or 'worthless' for ideas. There's very rarely an in-between, and few of the former thread exist; it's nice to see one that's relatively productive for once, though, since a lot of the threads I've seen tend to be... well, bad for one reason or another.

It's almost as if there's been TOO many of them lately, though; I think counting the Maple Councilor thread, there's been at least two or three. I guess it's at least activity, though, no matter how poor the threads can be at times.

[quote=tricks122]@Belzier It's been mentioned several times on the forums; the actual concept of a 'bruise' system was by another user, and unfortunately I don't remember them by name(I've suggested debuffs/'chains'/buffs for using different skills, but the bruising concept is definitely not by me originally). I'm definitely a firm believer in replacing Stun Mastery with a debuff skill that would promote the intelligent use of our now obsolete moves, which would both help our keyboard breathe and return a bit of variety to the class(I have the same number of keys used, around, in comparison to old Buccaneers, but now I have significantly more buffs).

Slapping Dragon Strike on the same level of Buccaneer Blast with a revamp would just ruin the skill, honestly, and changing Buccaneer Blast to a key-down is just a lazy change made for 'convenience' that really fixes very little(Barring perhaps the ability to move it, but even then... it's not enough of a change). The problem is that training heavily advantages it, at the moment, although it didn't always tend to be like that; Buccaneers really have two options at the moment, simply because of the way training/bossing works. We're either going to become like another class and be viable(My least preferred option), or the various training/bossing systems will get a revamp that promotes more class diversity(Incredibly unlikely, but my preferred option). With a bossing system that didn't force every class to have mobility, health recovery, etc, Buccaneers could be made in potent, durable front-line fighters who have a mixture of invincibility frames, re-positioning tools, debuffs and versatility.

But Nexon has never been able to put Buccaneers(And for the most part, Pirates in general) anywhere near 'average', so it's unlikely to change any time soon.[/quote]

Not that I'm contributing to the thread but bruising was @sammi 's idea brought up by me.

I'm also glad bucs getting some attention lately with these revamp idea threads

@silverfoxr First off... that seems to be what Arans/Thunder Breakers have going for them in terms of play-style. It's a very lazy implementation and, frankly, I'd rather not break my attack key; the Energy system should be different from the Combo system, and they can be without too much effort(They were different in the beginning, and now they're slowly coming closer together, which is bad).

Buccaneers, in terms of combat style, should be based on their Energy/Transformation system. Thunder Breakers are the 'combo' fist class, whilst Shades are the ones that just smack things with their 'spirit' or whatever. Turning Buccaneers into Arans is just a bad move; the old Buccaneer moves are actually pretty thematic to the class, they just need to be updated. Buccaneers aren't, and shouldn't, be the "flashy" fist fighter; just look at how Dragon Strike is elegant in its subtlety, but still conveys a lot of power in its simplistic animation style.

Even Barrage, Snatch and Demolition all had pretty 'normal' animations; they weren't grandiose, but they fit the class. We aren't about standing out. We're about punching something in the face until it keels over. Our 'flashiness' came from Super Transformation/Transformation, and maybe a dash of Energy Charge; Buccaneers shouldn't be very flashy, and we should be slow, heavy hitters that focus on precise moves in order to modify the position of ourselves/our enemies whilst avoiding enemy attacks. That would be true to our original sort of theme, both in terms of play-style, and in terms of fighting concept. We don't need another Thunder Breaker/Aran that chains skills together quickly with a sort of 'flow' and focus on spamming an optimal combo with the rest of their moves thrown in as buffs/movement options, nor do we need a single-skill focused Shade. Buccaneers, at least in my opinion, should go back to their roots of being a class that has a use for every skill, with each job adding new skills that fill in a new niche and allow a skilled player to exploit them all to move in harmony with his enemies whilst he manipulates the positions of the battlefield and takes advantage of opportunities to quickly close in, deal damage, and get out safely before creating another opportunity to do so.

@silverfoxr change the name of earthquake for hypers because evans might make copyright claims other than that, i kinda wanna see how that works

I think this concept would be cool for a revamped Buccaneer... at least for fighting style... I'm not going to add much in the way of buffs for this one, mainly so they can be filled in by more "numbers"-centric people... it's mostly just a "combat style" thing:

[b]1st job:[/b]
-Combo: Jab > Press the attack key to punch enemies with a straight jab. Builds Energy meter with every successful hit (enemies hit: 6)
-Backdash > Slide backwards for an evasive dash that avoids incoming damage (basicly similar to Shade's Foxtrot skill)
-Octopush > Bounce off a friendly octopuss to launch forward (yeah, it's flash jump)
-Combat Stance > Train your body to withstand greater blows from enemies (Stance effect +1% per level, max level 100, [other passive buffs applied here])

[b]2nd job:[/b]
-Energy Charge > Fill your body with energy to increase damage output and tap into powerful techniques.
-Combo: Cross > Tap/hold the attack key to follow up the jab with a swift cross punch (enemies hit: 6, can target nearest enemy if in range above/below)
-Corkscrew Blow > Surge forward suddenly, pushing enemies forward as you go. (enemies hit: 8, immune to damage while dashing)
-Burst Punch > Tap into your charged energy to unleash a punch with an explosive shockwave (enemies hit: 8)

[b]3rd job:[/b]
-Combo: Uppercut > Tap/hold the attack key to add a powerful uppercut to your combo, possibly stunning enemies (enemies hit: 6)
-Imposing Stomp > Draw from your charged energy and stomp the ground, launching all enemies around you into the air (enemies hit: 8, added damage to airborne enemies)
-Spiral Upper > Take a bit more from your energy pool to follow up Imposing Stomp with a rising uppercut (enemies hit: 8)

[b]4th job:[/b]
-Combo: Smash > Tap/hold the attack key to finish your combo with a downward smash (enemies hit: 8, increases enemy hit count of prior combo attacks +2, stunned enemies take added damage)
-Overload > Draw a large portion of charged energy to vastly increase damage output and ignore damage reflect (cooldown of 90 seconds)
-Energy Blast > Charge energy through your hands to unleash a piercing shockwave of energy that passes through targets (enemies hit: 12)
-Focused Combo > Strike a single target with a powerful combo combining energy, precision and blazing speed (boss attack, essentially)
-Become Water > Learn to more efficiently move to evade enemy attacks (chance to avoid enemy attacks, damage increase Corkscrew Punch, 2 seconds extra invincibility after Corkscrew/Backdash)

[b]Hyper:[/b]
-Hyper Mode > Hone your power to temporarily raise your energy output to maximum (infinite energy gauge for 60 seconds, 180 second cooldown, [other buffs here])
-Earthquake > Jump high, then punch the ground to shake the earth and crush all enemies nearby (enemies hit: 15, AoE hyper attack = full screen)
-Epic Adventure > (you know this one already)

@powerbomb I can understand that. I'm simply saying it might not be easily accomplished simply because of the way those skills behave and possible drawbacks for using them(At least in the case of Hurricane, it would improve mobility massively and perhaps cause other issues to arise). I definitely think some skills shouldn't be used in the air just because of how they work, but others, such as Tornado Uppercut, seem fine to allow, but I just think it's a more mechanical issue with the game.

@4kyosuke4 I'm fairly certain that Hilla's damage reduction has to do with Elements rather than being specific. To my knowledge, classes with Elemental Nulls(I think I/L and F/P Mages have them, as well as Evans) bypass her damage reduction, because it's not considered "physical" damage, but some form of "neutral" damage. I could be wrong, but that seems to be how it functions for Hilla, but I've never tested it with any of those classes(I've merely heard some people say that).

It's an interesting concept to have bosses have different ways to resist damage based on a player's position... it would actually make for an interesting boss if it had multiple 'parts' and certain classes would have easier times fighting certain parts than others. I'm not sure how well it could be designed, but it'd be a potential change of pace that's slightly reminiscent of CrimsonWood Keep PQ's 'statues' that each class had to mess around with(Or the class doors they needed to do).

We should at least be able to break through things like Hilla's auto 50% damage reduction considering how close ranged we are. Doesn't solve much, but it's a thought.

[quote=tricks122]Tornado Uppercut(Unless you're referring to its previous incarnation, Double Uppercut, which was removed). I think they're constrained to the ground because of the animation, in Dragon Strike's case, and Nexon doesn't tend to want to give Buccaneers many 'flashy' skills. There are a handful of other skills in the game I can think of that aren't able to be used in the air... most of them are Hurricane type skills; I'm guessing that in Tornado Uppercut's case, it's because the projectile needs to be ground-bound when cast due to its travel method(Since when I last used it, it could drop down platforms and do other strange things).

Probably not the best reasons... but eh. It could be worse, and it's probably one of the few things that isn't horribly overdue, at least in my opinion.[/quote]

Tornado Uppercut is the one I was referring to. I realize that there are other skills that can't be used in the air, but those too tend to bother me. Maybe it's for "flavor" or in some situations because the results may be too odd to consider adding in the ability in, but letting people use more of their skills in midair feels more like a quality of life thing than anything else. It's just more more for convenience, I guess.

Making more of our buffs passive would be nice too, but I think Nexon should focus on useless and redundant skills first.

@beradude4090: I'd rather not remove our blistering flash jump. Focusing too much on CSB is painful since it's not particularly fast. Also, all of Bucc's skills pre-revamp had fundamental issues, simply speeding them up won't really solve that issue. Also, I'd rather not remove our buffs. Make some passive (some could realistically be made passive), but removing Maple Warrior? That's a large chunk of damage gone. Definitely not a good idea.

Typhoon Crush ignoring 100% of defense is flat-out broken. Nexon would never do anything like that.

[quote=powerbomb]Bruising might've been my idea. I know I've certainly said it enough on the forums here whenever a "Bucc revamp guys?" thread or a simple grievance thread comes up.

Another small modification I'd like is for Dragon Strike and our second job uppercut move (I forget what it's called, never trained a post-revamp 2nd job Bucc) to be able to be used in midair. It's 2015, why are these skills still constrained to the ground?[/quote]

Tornado Uppercut(Unless you're referring to its previous incarnation, Double Uppercut, which was removed). I think they're constrained to the ground because of the animation, in Dragon Strike's case, and Nexon doesn't tend to want to give Buccaneers many 'flashy' skills. There are a handful of other skills in the game I can think of that aren't able to be used in the air... most of them are Hurricane type skills; I'm guessing that in Tornado Uppercut's case, it's because the projectile needs to be ground-bound when cast due to its travel method(Since when I last used it, it could drop down platforms and do other strange things).

Probably not the best reasons... but eh. It could be worse, and it's probably one of the few things that isn't horribly overdue, at least in my opinion.

I want bucc revamp !

Bruising might've been my idea. I know I've certainly said it enough on the forums here whenever a "Bucc revamp guys?" thread or a simple grievance thread comes up.

Another small modification I'd like is for Dragon Strike and our second job uppercut move (I forget what it's called, never trained a post-revamp 2nd job Bucc) to be able to be used in midair. It's 2015, why are these skills still constrained to the ground?

@belzier Eh... personally, I'm not a big fan of Buccaneer Blast in general. I think it was made a result of training becoming much more condensed to 1~3 maps(Stronghold specifically), which means the 'options' for mobbing skills are very limited; Chaining skills(Chain Lightning or Luminous' main mobber comes to mind), laser/long horizontal skills(Buccaneer Blast, Mihile's laser copy, Mechanics, etc)... those are the ones that come to mind instantly. I can't think of many other variants that are seen as effective at the moment, and that's the problem. Training is so condensed that most mobbers that have some quirks(Such as high vertical hit-boxes) end up being useless, since no map compares to the current ones. It's similar to how, way back when, Archers used to train at specific areas due to their higher accuracy, Warriors and Marauders usually ended up doing Himes/Dreamy Ghosts with a Priest since they had durability, etc.

A Kamehameha wave is neat, but I just don't think it fits in terms of practicality, and it sort of makes Buccaneers even more boring to play. Personally, I think that while it would be daunting, changing the combat system to promote more play-styles and variety would help, and it would assist more than just Buccaneers, since many other classes could benefit from some fresh ideas and play-styles.

I might delve through the previous revamp threads sometime and see who originally suggested the idea. I might get it wrong if I don't dig back far enough, but 'eh... it'd be nice to know as well, because the idea isn't a bad one.

[quote=tricks122]'snip'[/quote]

I didn't really go into much detail about how I really meant "key-down". I meant that one could charge it by pressing the skill, then press and hold it again to use the skill, and it would blast for a maximum number of seconds (to be determined; not infinite), or until energy is depleted, etc. Also, the skill could be made to not activate should the user not press the skill key again after charging it to the maximum, which would keep players from simply holding / mashing the key. Really, all my suggestion is, is to make it like a true Kamehameha wave. >.>

If we ever figure out the name of the person that came up with the bruising idea, I'd like to give them credit where it's due.

First thing I would want to do is completely re-design Dash into a backstep skill like Shade and Night Walkers (seriously?) have - a move that steps backwards quickly, giving I-frames. From there, go back to an older iteration of Corkscrew Blow that does not have cooldown, gathers mobs and keeps it's I-frames. Maybe even take the skill a step further and allow it to target enemies similar to Foxtrot (if there is an enemy above/below within range, the skill targets them).

I think the next thing I'd like to see to use something akin to Heroes, Aran, Xenon and the like when it comes to energy charge - have the skill build power when using certain moves, while other, more powerful ones spend the energy. For that, do something similar to Aran, Battle Mage, Hayato and Kaiser and give Buccaneers a "standard" attack combo they can use with the Attack key that gains more hits and properties as the job level goes up, then have special buffs and attacks that spend the charged energy. The hyper skill doesn't really even have to change - infinite charge mode skill usage for a short time.

Ultimately, make the character class concept a bit more like something you'd see in a traditional fighting game - a fist fighter that can rush in, rush out, build meter and punish enemies with brutal special moves... maybe not use special commands like in a traditional fighter, but the base idea is there. Basically, town down the huge, flashy ranged attacks and fight with your hands more.

@Belzier It's been mentioned several times on the forums; the actual concept of a 'bruise' system was by another user, and unfortunately I don't remember them by name(I've suggested debuffs/'chains'/buffs for using different skills, but the bruising concept is definitely not by me originally). I'm definitely a firm believer in replacing Stun Mastery with a debuff skill that would promote the intelligent use of our now obsolete moves, which would both help our keyboard breathe and return a bit of variety to the class(I have the same number of keys used, around, in comparison to old Buccaneers, but now I have significantly more buffs).

Slapping Dragon Strike on the same level of Buccaneer Blast with a revamp would just ruin the skill, honestly, and changing Buccaneer Blast to a key-down is just a lazy change made for 'convenience' that really fixes very little(Barring perhaps the ability to move it, but even then... it's not enough of a change). The problem is that training heavily advantages it, at the moment, although it didn't always tend to be like that; Buccaneers really have two options at the moment, simply because of the way training/bossing works. We're either going to become like another class and be viable(My least preferred option), or the various training/bossing systems will get a revamp that promotes more class diversity(Incredibly unlikely, but my preferred option). With a bossing system that didn't force every class to have mobility, health recovery, etc, Buccaneers could be made in potent, durable front-line fighters who have a mixture of invincibility frames, re-positioning tools, debuffs and versatility.

But Nexon has never been able to put Buccaneers(And for the most part, Pirates in general) anywhere near 'average', so it's unlikely to change any time soon.

I'd like to see a more martial artist style gameplay style for the class. Not hopeful really. If anything, we need quite a few things fixed. You can see most of the things we discussed over at the MLC post here on Basil, as well as on Reddit.

I think most bucc players around here are interested in the idea of a "bruising" (debuff) system to replace our outdated stun mastery skills that would apply to bosses as well; where we cause a debuff on targets that we damage, and it reduces their pdr and perhaps damage they deal, or applies other affects. I think @tricks122 came up with this one.

A change I'd like to see is for Bucc Blast to be able to be charged like Big Bang / Final Cut / old Corkscrew, then after that it would be a key-down skill similar to Spectral Light (changing the direction of the laser may or may not be appropriate; it's not totally necessary).

I don't see any major fixes or changes or revamps for us pirates any time soon. Wishful thinking it is.