Final Toss speed cap is 3, not 2
[b]ATTENTION: This was very helpfully disproven by SilentXynh and Mancartia <3[/b]
However, it seems that now we better understand the way attack speeds are rounded by the Maplestory game code. This may have some far-reaching implications on how other skill speeds are calculated -- we're working on that now! Feel free to continue discussion here.
Original post:
Note that everything here is preliminary, and I hope to soon confirm it with in-game tests.
[b]Idea:[/b] Faster2 and faster3 both attack at the same rate with Final Toss. With the attack speed rounding to the nearest 30, note the speed for faster2 and faster3.
FT skill delay:
330ms = faster2
330ms = faster3
360ms = fast4
390ms = fast5
420ms = normal6
450ms = slow7
480ms = slow8
510ms = slower9
[b]Implications:[/b]
[b]#1[/b] For EMS... FT spam is the same with Normal / Fast speed polearms (though as I understand, PSB is very common in EMS).
[b]#2[/b] Slow7 weapons reach Final Toss speed cap
Examples: Legendary Hellslayer (102 atk), Red Surfboard (RSB) (96-103 atk), Legendary Zedbug (107 atk), Legendary Dragon Hellslayer (112 atk).
>>>These weapons (clean) all tie or surpass a clean Crimson Arcglaive DPS with FT spam.
>>>Of course, many of these weapons are rare.
[b]#3[/b] With dSI, slow8 weapons reach Final Toss speed cap
Examples: Hellslayer (95-102 atk), Enraged Warrior Rose (102 atk), Zedbug (102-103 atk), Last UWG PA (106 atk), Dragon Chelbird (107 atk), Marx VL Halberd (117 atk), VIP Polearm (122 attack).
>>>With dSI, these weapons (clean) all tie or surpass a clean Crimson Arcglaive DPS with FT spam.
[b]Note[/b] that for OSFB spam (useful in late 4th job), these weapons would need to be replaced -- ideally with the best PA in the game, the Partisan.
If you have one of the rarer slow7 weapons mentioned above, or if you have a common slow8 weapon [plus easy access to dSI], these weapons (look at Dragon Chelbird - easy to find, very cheap, and higher base atk than Glaive) can make perfect temporary weapons for 120-140+ if you opt for the Final Toss build, while still putting out optimal attack speed and DPS.
(Weapon attack and speed data from hidden-street, may or may not be up to date).
23 Comments • Newest first
@SilentXynh: not sure, actually, i'm pretty unsure about the whole deal, if you want i can go and record as many sacs as i can possibly drop in a row, and see how many it takes.
edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e3h9P9Ivk0&feature=youtu.be
tell me how many you can count please ._.
@darkspawn980:
If that's the case, do you know the delays for swings and stabs?
That way we could actually work out an average for it
[quote=SilentXynh]@phoenix23:
I used to use 810ms in my calculations, but someone showed me [url=http://www.southperry.net/showthread.php?t=3217]this.[/url]
I'll test it as soon as I can get a friend to hop on her bishop and heal me >:
So I guess I'll have to test Fast(5) DI and Sac for as many weapons as I can f3
EDIT: Now that I look at the Sword/Axe/BW Table it says 810ms for them...will test
[b]Recordings:[/b]
[url=http://youtu.be/rM-lgE9Oir4]Sacrifice test, going from Normal(6) to Faster(2), 17 times[/url]
[url=http://youtu.be/EsUcDH_UDYM]Dark Impale 50 times, going from Normal(6) to Faster(2)[/url]
[url=http://youtu.be/6tVOVCa2odY]Dark Impale 101 times, at Fast(5)[/url]
Sac seems like 810 at Normal(6) to me.
In the last video I used DI 101 times and it seems to match with 810ms rather than 780ms, please double check when it's finished uploading.
For science!
Thanks~[/quote]
the thing with sac is that it goes by the old formula, 2:3, 3 swings for every 2 stabs, and the stabs are faster than the swings, so there's no "determined" attack speed for it.
@phoenix23:
I used to use 810ms in my calculations, but someone showed me [url=http://www.southperry.net/showthread.php?t=3217]this.[/url]
I'll test it as soon as I can get a friend to hop on her bishop and heal me >:
So I guess I'll have to test Fast(5) DI and Sac for as many weapons as I can f3
EDIT: Now that I look at the Sword/Axe/BW Table it says 810ms for them...will test
[b]Recordings:[/b]
[url=http://youtu.be/rM-lgE9Oir4]Sacrifice test, going from Normal(6) to Faster(2), 17 times[/url]
[url=http://youtu.be/EsUcDH_UDYM]Dark Impale 50 times, going from Normal(6) to Faster(2)[/url]
[url=http://youtu.be/6tVOVCa2odY]Dark Impale 101 times, at Fast(5)[/url]
Sac seems like 810 at Normal(6) to me.
In the last video I used DI 101 times and it seems to match with 810ms rather than 780ms, please double check when it's finished uploading.
For science!
Thanks~
DK's have the weapon choice, we owe it to them!
Plus, all the participants here in this discussion have an active stake in the DK community
Shall we check speeds for DI and Sacrifice?
OK here is DI:
Original (incorrect?) attack speeds, with nearest rounding:
630
690
750
780
840
900
960
990
Revised attack speeds (always rounding up)
630
690
750
810
840
900
960
1020
The two discrepancies for DI are at Slower9 and Fast5. No one attacks with a slower8 weapon without booster, so that number has no significant effect.
But for Fast5 (or DKs using Slow7 weapons and booster, or Slow8 weapons and booster and dSI)... It's not as fast as previously thought.
So uh. The same goes for any other 840ms-based skill (like Blast).
As for Sacrifice, I can't seem to find the ms delay. I found Xynh using 750ms in another post, but Fiel's extraction said 810ms?
[quote=kuora]All this dedication, calculation and researching to find a speed cap of a single aran skill. Respect given. But very pointless because all you're gonna do is mash the attack button[/quote]
it's how I play the game~
and you're wrong, they spam down->up->attack button.
[quote=Mancartia]This fits with my prior knowledge of attack timings and maple in general which is: always round up.[/quote]
Test if this applies to other skills please? :x
epic lol at the 9.09% increase in damage xD
[quote=SilentXynh]Yeah, that's the issue we're trying to work out, I don't think my results are conclusive, L>someone else to test, preferably someone who has a controller.
Though I wonder if the 315 should really be rounded down to 300...[/quote]
Yeah, I was just trying to get back on topic since I was talking about macro programs >.>
I have no idea why 315 would round down to 300. If it does and proper tests show that FT does indeed cast every 300ms with faster 2, then I'd like to know if it would apply to other skills in similar circumstances. If there are any other that FT, anyway.
@iVege:
Yeah, that's the issue we're trying to work out, I don't think my results are conclusive, L>someone else to test, preferably someone who has a controller.
Though I wonder if the 315 should really be rounded down to 300...
[quote=SilentXynh]@iVege: Formula for skill delay is [(speed number+10)/16]*delay at Normal(6), rounded to the nearest 30ms.
At Faster(2), it'd be (12/16)*420 = 315ms, which should be 330ms rounded to the nearest 30ms.
At Faster(3), it'd be (13/16)*420 = 341.25ms, 330ms rounded.[/quote]
Isn't the problem that 2 is faster than 3? I thought we already established that 2 should supposedly equal 3 from the OP.
@iVege: Formula for skill delay is [(speed number+10)/16]*delay at Normal(6), rounded to the nearest 30ms.
At Faster(2), it'd be (12/16)*420 = 315ms, which should be 330ms rounded to the nearest 30ms.
At Faster(3), it'd be (13/16)*420 = 341.25ms, 330ms rounded.
[quote=darkspawn980]i'm thinking that a method to perfectly test this wouldn't be legit unfortunately. considering it's over 3 FT's per second, that's a lot of button mashing.
is there a way to macro the movements on a controller?
@silentxynh: you could get an evan to use the mp skill, try it in dojo (extra mp recovery) or maybe get a bishop? (does holy magic shield recover mp? i think not right?)[/quote]
Using a macro program like AHK would work, but [i]against the rules[/i] like you said.
The risk is basically 0 though. I would do it if I had Final Toss.
... so why the hell is there a difference in speed anyway?
@darkspawn980:
That's my worry, maybe in my hurry to spam the FTs I might've slipped up.
I use my numpad for the up+down keys.
I'm pretty sure you can use a controller, I just don't own one :S
As for the mp recovery thing, I'm just trying to limit the mp so I don't overshoot with the amount of FTs I want to execute
Could do it with a bishop that has maxed adv bless I suppose.
Maybe it is easier on a controller.
[quote=phoenix23]OK. Seems like a clear difference to me.
Thanks so much for the vids!
@Darkspawn980 what do you think of all this?[/quote]
i'm thinking that a method to perfectly test this wouldn't be legit unfortunately. considering it's over 3 FT's per second, that's a lot of button mashing.
is there a way to macro the movements on a controller?
@silentxynh: you could get an evan to use the mp skill, try it in dojo (extra mp recovery) or maybe get a bishop? (does holy magic shield recover mp? i think not right?)
I still think we should still do more tests, and maybe someone else should do it instead of me because I might not be doing them perfectly
Perhaps over a longer period.
If we assume that Faster(2) and Faster(3) are 300ms and 330ms respectively, over 60 FT, the observable difference should be 1.8 seconds and I'm not confident about it :S
OK. Seems like a clear difference to me.
Thanks so much for the vids!
@Darkspawn980 what do you think of all this?
@phoenix23: Redone, [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ekq0t8ZCIs4&feature=youtu.be]here[/url].
Doubled up,[url=http://youtubedoubler.com/4hP2]here[/url]
This time I dropped my max mp down to 1511.
That way I don't have to worry about mp regen, as I'll always run out of mp after I use 60 FT (I'd need to regen at least 14 mp for FT's 25 mp cost, and that would take 50 seconds to regen, much more than the time it takes for 60 FT)
Possibly. Do you do it faster than the limit (so that it just goes at max speed?)
If you redo it, could you just aim for, say, 60 FT's and stop there (so we don't have to worry about manaregen and make the number of FT's a constant?)
@phoenix23:
The Slow(8) PA gave me a little bit more mp though, it added on about 100mp or so, but we're not really interested in that.
I timed it and reached the same conclusion, so I'm a bit puzzled x.x
Going to try it on [url=http://youtubedoubler.com/4hOh]youtubedoubler[/url] to see a side by side comparison.
I might redo it later, maybe I didn't do the FTs perfectly.
According to your tests, @Silentxynh, Faster2 is definitely faster than Faster3.
That's odd. Idk where to go from here!
Slow8 = ~81 FTs, or full mana pool in 31.7 seconds
Slow7 = ~74 FTs, or full mana pool in 27.0 seconds
Norm6 = ~75 FTs, or full mana pool in 24.7 seconds
That's how I timed your video.
._.
wtb extraction
I know it's probably unnecessary as people who'd look into this topic probably know about Arans having -4 speed, but throw it in for good measure?
I've seen a couple of Arans who are still unaware.
Not sure if this is of much help, but I recorded some FT spamming and compared Faster(3), Faster(2) and Fast(4) [url=http://youtu.be/X7k5xzb6nWU]here[/url]
I don't quite have enough mp for a whole minute of uninterrupted FTs x.x
Wow, this is a great find. It's not too useful though, because OSFB is still affected by the slower speed, unless somehow you seriously [i]never[/i] use OSFB lol.