basilmarket

@crazypoorer: oh, don't worry, its fine

Reply January 22, 2013

[quote=crazypoorer]@Ppism: Rank Job DPM Summons
1 Marksman 1435440.09% No Cooldown Snipe Frostsprey + Elite Puppet
2 Hero 1162877.32%
3 Viper 1046687.23%
4 Mechanic 1022030.09% Magnetic Field + Robot Factory + Satelite
5 [b]Shadower 1020915.40% Dark Sight Assassination + Flip the Coin[/b]
6 [b]Dual Blade 909769.81% Venom + Phantom Blow + Asura/ All Critical [/b]
7 Night Lord 809289.47% Venom
8 Captain 787481.85% Assemble Crew + Octopus Deck
9 Mikhail 787134.78%
10 Wild Hunter 771780.88% Silver Hawk
11 Kaiser 758536.45% Regain (?) + Giga Slash + Wing Beat + Advanced Will of Swords
12 Angelic Burster 731033.95% Trinity/Soul Seeker 893331.54%
13 Cannon Shooter 718377.84% Twin Support Monkey
14 Evan 705541.58% Summon Onyx Dragon included
15 Paladin 700208.45%
16 Demon Slayer 689894.44% Cerebus + Unlimited Demon Impact + Metamorphosis
17 Luminous 657992.97% Absolute Skill Spam
18 Phantom 638722.97% Dark Sight Assassination + Combo Attack/ Rapid Fire 400212.31%
19 Battle Mage 638722.50% DoT Damage
20 Aran 566286.93%
21 Bowmaster 554187.28% Phoenix + Elite Puppet
22 I/L Arch Mage 544051.72% DoT Damage Elquines
23 F/P Arch Mage 521644.88% DoT Damage Ifrit
24 Mercedes 497887.38% Elemental Knight
25 Dark Knight 484908.13%
26 Bishop 452585.38% Bahamut

Sourse: insoya.com[/quote]

At least the top three are adventurers.

Reply January 22, 2013

crazypoorer

@iDivideZer0: Sorry, it wasn't meant to you, it was meant for the person who you quoted who quoted me...
And I haven't played MS for a long time so I don't remember if it's 6 or 5 orbs

Reply January 22, 2013

iDivideZer0

@crazypoorer: 6 orbs? If you're stating this because I asked which skill hits the fastest earlier, it was only out of curiosity, I didn't say MC would be better than nate in 1v1

Reply January 21, 2013 - edited

crazypoorer

@iDivideZer0: You do know that after Unlimited, a Shadower's highest DPM is Nate + DS + 6 orbs right?

Reply January 21, 2013 - edited

iDivideZer0

@inemnitable: ok thanks

Reply January 21, 2013 - edited

ItzATrapp

@Braddigan:

I compare classes based on their max possible potential, and their max possible realistic potential. With either of these, boss solos will be very fast. Burst damage is also more applicable in these situations because boss times will be short, and all bosses cast debuffs the prevent attacking for short periods of time, or decrease damage, etc. Therefore an average is inaccurate, and burst damage is more applicable because I want to know, hey, in the 12 seconds I got to attack before Zakum cast weapon cancel, how much DPS did I do per second? I don't want an average because it can vary. Maybe I got 1/1'd during that time so I had to repot. Using my version of DPS is more accurate and realistic because I'm only using one skill, Phantom Blow, during that time so it is much easier and accurate to calculate that DPS.

@crazypoorer:

I haven't seen a max range DB or Shad yet.

Reply January 21, 2013 - edited

iDivideZer0

[quote=Demon671]@inemnitable: Im not stating burst factor. If you can actually stop with your reasoning of DPS = DPM you'd understand that what Im stating is when people start hitting cap again how many times you hit will become the deciding factor. Yes as of now not many people can hit cap but it has been done already *Ie: Limgoons Xenon is just the beginning.

When people Hit cap the amount of attacks a person can do in the length of time is what people look for. No one is ever talking about burst damage except for you. I do not understand why you keep brining it up. Im stating that when a person hits the cap the %'s that Joetang posts will become irrelevant and whomever deals more hits will win i.e DPS.

Right now he ranked it overall of Damage per minute. Overall usage's of damage a class can deal in that length of time using one's hyper skills and such. Pure % without any additions. But remove that all because im only factoring in if people can hit the cap. Which I keep restating over and over and over to you that

DAMAGE PER SECOND will outweigh DAMAGE PER MINUTE i.E IF A JOB HITS 10X IN A SECOND THEN A CLASS THAT HITS 1~2 A SECOND WILL LOSE. MEANING THAT SHADS VS MERCS THAT SHADS WOULD LOSE. But as of now Shads will win because they themselves can dish out a higher damage in a minute than a Merc.

Off-Topic: The amount of time I had to keep re-wording this was so annoying because of the filter of words I am not even trying to place. Darn you basil filters.

Edit: @iDivideZer0: No it wouldn't be that high since before the cap was 100k for coin when the dmg cap was lower. 5m is the most it will get meaning you're getting 1m per coin stack.

@crazypoorer: Magnus is a poor boss for a shad to really try and shine. Setting up ME would be too time wasting. So they would be stuck to spaming Nate & BS + MC combo. Removing one of Shad's "Essential" skill's. Shad's iframes can only save them for so long and not saying DB's > Shads but in speed TBH id pick my db over my shad. Personally I just wanna just get my shad it's last 10 levels and im happy.[/quote]

True, cause 90m is overkill o.o Out of curiosity, which skill is the fastest after Unlimited? Ring of Ishtar (with final attack and hyper skill dmg boost), ME (with ME hyper skill - attack count +1), PB (with MI and Hidden Blade), MC (with SP), Hurricane (with final attack and hyper skill - Split damage), Asura (with MI and hidden blade), Blade Dancing (with Xenon's MI ripoff and Aegis system) etc.

Reply January 21, 2013 - edited

kiue

[quote=inemnitable]Um, DPM and DPS are the same thing, just scaled by a factor of 60... [/quote]

Well, it sounds like the same but that is only if you dont have any other damage applied.

For example: I am just showing an example so it is not gonna be based off facts.

Lets say a NL can do like 1000% per second. That is so if you apply only one skill and multiply it by 60 then it'll be 60000% in one min. DPM and DPS are the same only if you apply this

But in reality, one minute can also apply other factors for NLs such as Venom and Sudden raid DOT. So that 60k% is actually not the most a NL can do. The way you use DPM is the vague way to rank jobs in what ever ranking system you are trying to do.

Knowing the DPS and DPM are two different ways of seeing the job. You might use DPS to see which job are the best for KSing. And for bossing you will use DPM so you know what is the total result.

I know the way you are viewing this because i use to view DPS and DPM like that too. Back then i try to calculate my damage using the method you are showing but then i notice that i kill faster than i estimated since i have Venom applied and stuff.

Reply January 21, 2013 - edited

Demon671

@inemnitable: Im not stating burst factor. If you can actually stop with your reasoning of DPS = DPM you'd understand that what Im stating is when people start hitting cap again how many times you hit will become the deciding factor. Yes as of now not many people can hit cap but it has been done already *Ie: Limgoons Xenon is just the beginning.

When people Hit cap the amount of attacks a person can do in the length of time is what people look for. No one is ever talking about burst damage except for you. I do not understand why you keep brining it up. Im stating that when a person hits the cap the %'s that Joetang posts will become irrelevant and whomever deals more hits will win i.e DPS.

Right now he ranked it overall of Damage per minute. Overall usage's of damage a class can deal in that length of time using one's hyper skills and such. Pure % without any additions. But remove that all because im only factoring in if people can hit the cap. Which I keep restating over and over and over to you that

DAMAGE PER SECOND will outweigh DAMAGE PER MINUTE i.E IF A JOB HITS 10X IN A SECOND THEN A CLASS THAT HITS 1~2 A SECOND WILL LOSE. MEANING THAT SHADS VS MERCS THAT SHADS WOULD LOSE. But as of now Shads will win because they themselves can dish out a higher damage in a minute than a Merc.

Off-Topic: The amount of time I had to keep re-wording this was so annoying because of the filter of words I am not even trying to place. Darn you basil filters.

Edit: @iDivideZer0: No it wouldn't be that high since before the cap was 100k for coin when the dmg cap was lower. 5m is the most it will get meaning you're getting 1m per coin stack.

@crazypoorer: Magnus is a poor boss for a shad to really try and shine. Setting up ME would be too time wasting. So they would be stuck to spaming Nate & BS + MC combo. Removing one of Shad's "Essential" skill's. Shad's iframes can only save them for so long and not saying DB's > Shads but in speed TBH id pick my db over my shad. Personally I just wanna just get my shad it's last 10 levels and im happy.

Reply January 21, 2013 - edited

iDivideZer0

@inemnitable: oh I forgot about that, I was looking at the thief hyper skill list Then if that's the case, 50m base cap + 10m from Assassinate Canceller + 5m from Epic Adventure + 25m from Flip the Coin (stacked 5 times ofc) = 90m cap?

Reply January 21, 2013 - edited

crazypoorer

[quote=Halo4Follower]idk if Shads. are stronger than db cause we can solo c.zak in 18 secs.[/quote]

Since when does soloing a stationary, easy boss in 18 seconds prove DBs are stronger than Shads?
Find me a video of a DB and Shad with both max ranges soloing Magnus or something. If you can do that, I'll concede

Reply January 21, 2013 - edited

Braddigan

@ItzATrapp Averages for DPS are useful for a # of reasons, but the modeling required for a highly-accurate # is difficult and most likely unneccessary given Maple's relatively simple combat. Bosses that Dispel aside, an average would allow you to see the given damage you can do over time taking into account: time to buff, cooldowns, # of targets, and other variables such as those. Hypothetically, who cares if you can get 1.5 Phantom Blow in per second for x% of damage if you can only do that for 3 seconds a minute? Damage should be looked at as a whole, not in an extreme example (unless you can kill a boss in that small window of extreme burst damage, but I digress!).

However, averages fall short when things like fight length are factored in. If you finish a boss 1 second before Asura comes off cooldown, you might end up with a lower % than had you been able to get a second one in, even though it would've lengthened the fight.

Anyway, it really just boils down to playing whichever class you prefer, as both will be amazing post-hypers and either one will do incredibly well given enough funding. I have and enjoy both

Reply January 21, 2013 - edited

Demon671

@iDivideZer0: good call i keep forgetting about that skill.

Reply January 21, 2013 - edited

iDivideZer0

[quote=Demon671]@inemnitable: Yes your correct in stating DPS = DPM in a higher form but what im relaying here is that DPS will be a huge factor when people hit cap.What I was trying to also relay that yes shads will be strong for now because they have higher %'s but alot slower. This is coming from experience and that once people start to hit cap shads will be back to where the were prior to the cap raise.

EDIT: I just saw your 5m flip and thats not how it works. Flip only gives a stack of 5 times at 20k *Not 100% sure what the dmg over cap is but last i knew it was 20k per stack*
Also Nate follow's the damage cap of 50m then the Limit cancellor gives 10m over cap. So 60m at the most tack in if flip does give it 100k over cap then it will only be 60.1m. I don't see where you would get the whole 65m and then 5m coin flip.[/quote]

There's epic adventure buff too, that raises it by 50k, so it's 60.15m, but still not 65m

Reply January 21, 2013 - edited

ItzATrapp

@inemnitable:

I honestly don't care what Wikipedia says, not only counting the fact that Wikipedia is not a credible resource because it can be edited.

If you look anywhere, the most general definition of DPS is Damage Per Second. This can apply to a class or a skill.

Averages are not an accurate measure because a class may do no damage one second, and some damage another second. I want to know specifically the max % damage a class can do in a second, not what their average is because it is possible for the average to be no where close to the actual amount per second.

I don't understand why you're pushing a definition that is not true. Despite what you say, I have my own definition of DPS, so please stop responding and don't press a definition debate that you cannot win because ultimately it boils down to what people believe a specific word means, and it would appear most people don't agree with your definition. The general term 'DPS' can be interpreted in your way and in the ways people in this community do. Everything has a straight up definition, DPS being damage per second, and an interpreted definition that is based off the person interpreting it.

Reply January 20, 2013 - edited

Demon671

@inemnitable: Yes your correct in stating DPS = DPM in a higher form but what im relaying here is that DPS will be a huge factor when people hit cap.What I was trying to also relay that yes shads will be strong for now because they have higher %'s but alot slower. This is coming from experience and that once people start to hit cap shads will be back to where the were prior to the cap raise.

EDIT: I just saw your 5m flip and thats not how it works. Flip only gives a stack of 5 times at 20k *Not 100% sure what the dmg over cap is but last i knew it was 20k per stack*
Also Nate follow's the damage cap of 50m then the Limit cancellor gives 10m over cap. So 60m at the most tack in if flip does give it 100k over cap then it will only be 60.1m. I don't see where you would get the whole 65m and then 5m coin flip.

Reply January 20, 2013 - edited

minticecream12

If they had the same exact funding, a Db would win due to the fact that they have much better buffing skills IMO and that assassinate's cast time with dark sight is too slow compared to phantom bl0w. Even if they decide to not use dark sight, then it would still be much slower AND it would practically do even damage.

Reply January 20, 2013 - edited

ItzATrapp

@inemnitable:

...

You don't understand how people calculate DPM and DPS then. All the calculations I've seen of people calculate DPS are by the max possible % in one second. This is how I do DPS calculations, too. If I wanted to do a DPS calculation for my class, then I would use Phantom Blow because spamming it allows me to do the max possible %damage in a second consistently (I'm not using Asura because I can't always use it).

DPS is not calculated the way you describe it. It is incorrect to use averages because averages are not accurate. In one second, a class may do no damage, but in another second, they may do an insane amount. You cannot just take an average. This is why DPS is inaccurate because not a whole lot can happen in a second. The way you're doing it is not DPS, it is just a different way of looking at DPM using averages over time(which is why you believe DPS = DPM/60), which is not an actual representation of what they do in a second. If you want to calculate for more than a second, than you use DPM, which is far more accurate than DPS.

I was going to write an example, but right now it is late and I don't feel like it.

Maybe you just do it differently, but just because you do does not make how other people calculate their DPS a "misunderstanding".

Reply January 20, 2013 - edited

ItzATrapp

@17forLIFE:

There are no DBs with max range. The closest I've seen is around a 900k range. There's a video of a DB hitting 8-9m per PB line with only a 500k range, so I believe it's entirely possible for a max range DB to hit around 25m per line. It's on youtube somewhere, alone with the other plethora of godly DBs soloing every boss faster than every class.

DBs are ONE of the more realistic top damage classes in Maple. Other classes may have theoretical DPM calculations that put them on a chart that no one cares about, but what it comes down to is how easy it is to use the class and fund it, and how realistic it is for the class to have high damage. Other realistic top DPM classes are MM, Xenon.... etc.

There are a lot of max range of other classes, so a DB one will come, eventually. The kind of funds to create one belong to only a few members in KMS, most of whom jump classes alot, especially to new ones when they come out.

@inemnitable:

DPM and DPS are not the same thing. DPS is the max damage you can do in a second, and DPM is the max damage you can do in a minute. DPS usually only factors in one skill because you can usually only use at most one skill in a second. DPM factors in all the possible skills you can use in a minute to achieve max possible %.

EXAMPLE:

DPS: I can cast Phantom Blow 1.5 times in a second. This is my max possible DPS. Asura is not viable for DPS calculations because I cannot use it all the time.

DPM: In a minute, I can fully use Asura, and when that is done, I will use Phantom Blow. Finding the max %damage of this will be a lot higher than if I just multiplied my DPS for Phantom Blow by 60.

Reply January 20, 2013 - edited

kenshin948

[quote=17forLIFE]No videos because Shadower's suck at the moment. Almost all pro shads converted to a DB because the funds they put into their Shadower didn't have the desired effect. You also seem to be forgetting that as time passes Nexon is implementing harder bosses into the game. Yea a DB can solo Zak faster because they'll be done before a Shad even comes out of Dark Sight, but can they do the same for Empress? Or Hard Mode Magnus?.

True, a DB can hit much faster than a Shadower and thus if it reaches around 25m they'll kill Shadower's damage. Is that possible with a 2m Damage range cap though? Taking into your example of "Realistic Implenmentation" I haven't found one DB with a max range, so I dare say there'll be any with a 2m Damage range once it comes. I have seen a Shadower with one (The Dojo Video in KMS).

Same thing I said to him.[/quote]

there are DBs in kms with 2mill ranges *seen some pb solos etc* but besides high pdr bosses it is possible to break 20mill with pb. on those same bosses a shad needs to be hitting 100mill normally to even hit 50mill on them(and hitting 50mill alone is not any easy thing let alone doubling that) which i dont think is possible with max range as well. Id like to see a shad vs. db in empress both with max range though. itd be interesting to see how they compare. since i havent really looked into shad post unlimited heavily i cant say whether a max range shad can out do a db definitely but i think the assumpting of higher dmg%= better dps is just wrong. MM should not be top cause theres so many faster classes etc.

Reply January 19, 2013 - edited

kenshin948

@17forLIFE: tho i understand your thought behind it. since i hit max~1.1mill at a 100k range on a db i wouldnt find it hard to break 20mills with pb if not higher at max range on bosses and 20mill+x20hits per second is over 400mill a second. itd be hard for a shad to out do that even when hitting 50mills with nate :x unless nate got a speed buff in which it could be possible.

Reply January 19, 2013 - edited

Demon671

@shanlan: I meant as of now even if the cap is 999k, people still continue to upgrade.

Reply January 18, 2013 - edited

roy5577

I read somewhere Phase Dash is gonna be changed to 8 monsters, and Meso Explosion's range will be increased.

Reply January 17, 2013 - edited

ItzATrapp

@17forLIFE:

Shads are only stronger in 1v1. I don't know how many times I have to stress this. Also, DBs have better DPS in general, it takes longer than a second to use dark sight + assassinate.

However, realistic implementation trumps theoretical charts. DBs are stronger than Shads, and there are videos for it. There aren't even any videos for max range DBs, and they still beat almost all the other classes at all boss solos. Once you hit level 200, bossing is really all that matters.

Also, I do not know what is the max or most realistic amount of %boss a character can have. But as a DB and a Shad get stronger (and thus closer to max damage), a DB will eventually beat a Shad in 1v1. If a Shad is capping with each hit of assassinate, Assassinate + Shadow Partner is about 6.8 hits (not mentioning cast time because you may also have to use dark sight, but lets assume it happens in one sec), which is about 340m (6.8 x 50m). Phantom Blow + Mirror Image is about 17.85 hits per second (7 hits x 1.7, x 1.5 which is about how many times it can be cast per second) so you multiple 17.85 times, lets say 25m, which is half of max. By hitting 25m, the DB has done 446.25m. So while it is almost impossible for a DB to hit max, they don't have to because with as funding goes up, so will the DB's strength so that it eventually surpasses Shads.

Reply January 17, 2013 - edited

iDivideZer0

@ShadowSkillz: Orly? didn't know that, but the point is the secondary stat requirement wasn't removed in Tempest for these sort of items, they don't exist in KMS, so there's still the possibility that it won't be implemented

Reply January 17, 2013 - edited

tecul1

@Ppism http://www.southperry.net/showthread.php?t=62432

That one's better. And it has shads WAY WAY WAY above DBs in rank (12/17 v 23)

Their potential is a bit lacking though (357.28m/737.88m v 981.51m) and the %/s is only ~3k off.

Reply January 17, 2013 - edited

ItzATrapp

I dunno man, but YouTube is an incredible source to find out how well classes do on a realistic sense.

Also all those charts you see are based on 1v1 damage only. If both classes can hit cap (which would be very hard for DBs now), then DBs would win because DBs have more hits per second.

Reply January 17, 2013 - edited

Corona

Shadowers always own DBs when it comes to my heart <3

Reply January 17, 2013 - edited

Demon671

@shanlan: I know people who hit the cap and keeps on upgrading their equipment. Mainly because they know the dmg cap will be raised soon and will continue to keep on to get more out of it. One pretty much prime example is @Underpaying im pretty sure he hit the cap long ago but kept on continuing upgrading

Reply January 17, 2013 - edited

kenshin948

Shads only beat dbs because of the higher dmg% but you cant rank classes on dps based off of dmg % because if there both maxing db beats shad easily(along with alot of other classes , like kaiser would be top dps if all classes were maxing). Granted getting up to 50mill a hit with some skills if not all is a task in it of itself but in general db is faster then shads its only that shads have a spammable sudden raid basicly.

Reply January 17, 2013 - edited

Oshawott

Shadowers will never be "better than dual blades" at DPS anyway til unlimited. then the game gets dumb
for sheer fun and swag we win every time.

Reply January 17, 2013 - edited

Demon671

[quote=inemnitable]The assassinate hypers are great for people with lower funds, but people with higher ranges get even more benefit (relatively speaking) out of the BStep hypers. Nate gets a ~68% maximum damage increase from the extra line and cap increases, but BStep gets an even better 72.5% increase. If you're already at the point where assassinate is useless because of the cap, hypers aren't going to change that. If anything, more people will find nate useless because of the 20% damage buffs to both skills and the damage and critical buffs from flip the coin.

However, when Unlimited comes along, the true power of Assassinate will be unleashed, and boy will it be a sight to behold.[/quote]

For the time being. Personally, and this is just my opinion, I believe that this whole increase of dmg cap is honestly placed to feed the childish. Reason being is because this only gives nexon more room to "Revamp" classes to higher %'s than before. SO bascially think of it as a huge nerfing which nexon will give a whole new "Balancing/Revamps" to satisfy users. Or give them more room to make more newer "Overpowered" classes. Sooner or later people will hit those caps once again making the game once again the same way prior to the dmg cap raise. For now DPM > DPS but sooner or later when the caps are hit once again DPS will overrule again.

Reply January 17, 2013 - edited

ShadowSkillz

[quote=iDivideZer0]@Ppism: Yea I guess you could say that, but kataras will still have more att, but don't take me on my word, cause khanjars are GMS-exclusive, so I don't know if Nexon will implement the change on them[/quote]
Msea also have khanjar/Dkhanjar so their not GMS-exclusive.

Reply January 17, 2013 - edited

Collo123

[quote=PeachStab]Good question. Answer: No one cares.

There will always been arguments over Shad vs DB. In truth they are both really strong and very tough in terms of survivability. Hyper skills will most likely bridge some of the gap but probably not all of it. If you're a cap hitter as a shadower getting the extra hit from hyper skills to bstep will be adding another 1.7m dmg per attack. I don't know anything about DB hyper skills but it's going to be a close call in my opinion.[/quote]
And until unlimited comes there's that cap increase hyper skill (lvl 195) for assassinate.

Reply January 17, 2013 - edited

minticecream12

Dbs are still going to far superior. Just saying.

Reply January 14, 2013 - edited

valkyr

Might make us even, I still have my doubts about Shadowers > DBs though.

It doesn't even matter unless you're uber funded anyway, and I doubt you fall into that category so who cares who sits where.