General

Religion was a way to answer the multiple questions that was on the mind of ancient people.
what is the meaning of life? how was this world created? who created this world? what's after death? what am i?
the majority of these are answered by science but we still hold onto these traditions despite it holding back civilization advancement to the future.

[quote=ColdAir]

I don't think it is fair to say that a child born with special needs is created without love, so I don't believe there is a contradiction.[/quote]

There is so a contradiction and it is right here in the quote below.

[quote=ColdAir] What I meant by the fact that they bless me indirectly is while I'm spending time with them despite their disabilities I'm still able to develop a relationship with them and learn different things about them like what they enjoy to do or like to eat. [/quote]

You don't need to be born with crippling diseases so that you can can develop relationships and learn different things about people. You can be in a relationship with somebody if they were completely healthy. In fact how happy you become is completely independent of how sick a person is and entirely dependent on how much love you are willing to give to anyone. Its great that you feel happy helping others and that the parents look forward sending their kids to camp, but you are completely side stepping the hot topic and that is the ill children. Don't tell me if your options were to be either born with something like CP, be unable to have an independent life and look forward to things like going to camp, or not be born with CP at all, that you would pick the former? Be honest.

[quote=ColdAir] But again, for a God that lives in eternity, he has an intricate plan for all those kids, and it isn't fair to them to just look at them and notice their disabilities and feel pity. [/quote]

Well that's great, maybe in eternity we all have wings and ride shining horses, but for now on earth it seems that some people are born with proper functioning bodies and some are born with handicaps. Not to mention that diseases are based mostly on genetics which are physical entities. You can't have CP in the after life when you don't have the physical body to which the paralysis occurred. You must admit that if God crafted each one of us and said "this person will be in perfect health, but this person will never walk again" despite the fact that he does not need to do so, then he must not be "all-loving"

"If he is able but not willing, then he is malevolent" from an ancient quote.

Religion served as an initial system of understanding the world around us for earlier homo-sapien societies. Before the earliest scientific understandings came about, religion was still in place; and when those understandings came about, religion still remained dominant due to what limited knowledge we had.

You'll notice that fundamental religious practice is gradually reducing as the years progress. This is because many cultural structures have begun to change to fit the understandings and conditions which have been brought forth by science. Even amongst the more conservative countries, we have stances on religious principle gradually (albeit slowly) changing, which again points to cultural evolution.

Though, one can make somewhat of a philosophical argument in favor of the existence of whatever deity, they have begun to progressively lose more ground as scientific knowledge advances in terms of our known world.

Religion will likely remain for some years to come, however its time as the dominant (in terms of populous) understanding of our known universe is frankly limited. Any reason to believe in some sort of religious doctrine is purely rooted in culture at this point.

[quote=Avatar]Yea, some people are born with degenerative spinal cord diseases and are esasentially in pain every day of their life and many autistic children are hypersensitive to their senses and cannot tolerate things like the fluorescent lights that we take for granted. But blessing others in an indirect way (i.e "be glad you weren't born that way&quot is a fair trade off right?

I hope you realize that its things like what you posted that only bypass the philosophical question of why are people born with physical diseases and most continue to say how we are created with love etc. There is a contradiction for you right there?[/quote]

Well, I've volunteered for a week long camp for kids with special needs for a few years. I've lived with kids with moderate CP and severe CP on one side of their body in a wheel chair, and I can tell you that never crossed my mind. To be honest it's hard to think stuff like that when I'm taking care of their every need, and it isn't easy. What I meant by the fact that they bless me indirectly is while I'm spending time with them despite their disabilities I'm still able to develop a relationship with them and learn different things about them like what they enjoy to do or like to eat. A lot of those kids look forward to the camp the other 53 weeks of the year and I KNOW all the parents do. I'm happy that I could give them a break even it is only for a week.

Is it "fair" for kids to be born with disabilities? No, on our system of merit, it is not. But again, for a God that lives in eternity, he has an intricate plan for all those kids, and it isn't fair to them to just look at them and notice their disabilities and feel pity. I don't believe it is as simple as generalizing a group of people, because what He wants to do with each of our lives is much more than a happy and fair existence on earth. The reason I'm blessed is because God allowed me to have the privilege of taking care of two so far (the camp is individualized, so each counselor takes care of one camper.)

I don't think it is fair to say that a child born with special needs is created without love, so I don't believe there is a contradiction.

[quote=ColdAir]I. You could point out birth defects, why would God create someone with severe physical problems from the get go? Well from working with kids with special needs, I can tell you that they change lives. They bless everyone they meet in an indirect way. [/quote]

Yea, some people are born with degenerative spinal cord diseases and are esasentially in pain every day of their life and many autistic children are hypersensitive to their senses and cannot tolerate things like the fluorescent lights that we take for granted. But blessing others in an indirect way (i.e "be glad you weren't born that way&quot is a fair trade off right?

I hope you realize that its things like what you posted that only bypass the philosophical question of why are people born with physical diseases and most continue to say how we are created with love etc. There is a contradiction for you right there?

[quote=icemage11]My conversation with religious people in a nutshell:

Me: Why do you believe in God?
Them: Why DON'T you believe in God?
Me: Because to me, there's no proof he exists. Can you prove he exists?
Them: Well can you prove he DOESN'T exist?
Ok.. let's try this again.
Me: Well for example, I don't believe in creationism because I find it hard to believe that an omnipotent deity created everything in this world, yet he still lets a lot of people suffer.
Them: How can you NOT believe?
...

Yeah.

I get the impression that a lot of people uses religion as an emotional crutch. Religion lets them have a false sense of security when something goes wrong because they believe they will always be taken care of by a deity. Some people uses religious guidelines to be a good person with good morals, which I believe humans can have without being religious. There are just too many contradictions in the Bible for me to believe any part of it. Also I hate that some people pick and choose passages that support their bigotry, and completely disregard other contradicting passages in the bible.[/quote]

I think that once you realize that God lives in eternity and outside the natural progression of time it is easier to comprehend why he puts people through pain. "Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, why hast Thou made me thus?" Romans 9:20 You can also consider the story of Job, the story of a man who had what was considered at the time a very wealthy life until he was put through inhumane hardships. Even through all of these hardships he still did not doubt his faith in God. I believe that if you are only using Christianity as an emotional crutch, you are not really a Christian. You are right, the problem a lot of times with how people view Christianity is that they only believe what is convenient to them, but a true believer of Christ believes in the words of the Bible as a whole and does his best to keep them. Even though he knows he will come short and make mistakes, he still strives to become closer and closer to the loving God who created and died for him.

I think lots of people try to complicate things and try to ask philosophical questions like "why does God cause pain" when if you really looked at the Bible it is clear that not everyone will live an easy life, and we will not always understand why people go through hardships. You could point out birth defects, why would God create someone with severe physical problems from the get go? Well from working with kids with special needs, I can tell you that they change lives. They bless everyone they meet in an indirect way. When I realize that our lives on this Earth are so short and incomparable to the eternity that God lives in, it starts to make better sense that while he still loves every single individual he created, sometimes people will go through inevitable hardships in this short life that He did give us.

On a last note, I don't believe that the Bible has any contradictions. You might want to keep in mind that the Bible is not originally in English, and many words used in the English version that might seem contradictory to something said somewhere else is usually because of a word in Hebrew that doesn't have an exact translation to English. Any other things that seem contradictory are usually able to be explained if you ask a knowledgable scholar or usually a pastor in general. In all honesty even though I've grown up hearing about the Christian faith my whole life, I've only developed a real relationship with God in the last year, so I probably don't know enough to explain to you why something that seems contradictory is not.

I just mainly wanting to try to convey that not everyone who believes to be Christian uses God as an emotional crutch; true believers of the Gospel know that a relationship with God isn't really stagnant, and it takes wholeheartedness. "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise." Psalms 51:17 It's pretty hard to take a psalm out of context, haha.

I feel like its misguided to believe in God just so you can have a chance to go to heaven or avoid hell. About the "laws set upon us" here is a verse from Matthew 22. Jesus was asked which is the greatest of the commandments. This was his response. "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: love your neighbor as yourself. All the law and the prophets hang on these two commandments."

You shouldn't be Christian because you're afraid of going to hell. It should be that you are Christian because you love God.

[quote=FlushPhantom]My friend tried to get me into Christianity "just to be safe"

I assume to be safe from hell?[/quote]

yeah

My friend tried to get me into Christianity "just to be safe"

I assume to be safe from hell?

Ya'll need Jesus.

[quote=Traitor]Regardless. Karma is a female dog.

Belief or not, don't be a scumbag asshole. Almighty God wouldn't blame you for living your life as your own with the free will said to be given by God. It's a gift embrace it, make the world a better place. Help when you can, do whatever you can to make it positive to those around you.

Lesson Learned: Don't be a duck.[/quote]

Maybe you wouldn't get blamed, but I know in most cases you get punished for not "accepting" the deity of a particular faith. Although "accepting" is hard to show, I mean you could still be the most convincing and devout minister playing a facade for personal gain and not actually accept the teachings. The thread title doesn't say "do we need to believe to make a better place" it says is "there a reason" aka Pascals wager sort of deal.

I met an evangelist once, me and some of my friends were walking around portland one day and one of my friends wanted to stand in a really long line to get doughnuts so I followed him and 2 of my other friends waited at a park, and so we were standing around and this random dude just came up to us and he asked us if he could pray for us and we were kinda awkwardly standing there at first cause there were a bunch of people staring, but then he closed his eyes and told us what our personalities were, spot on like ive never even remotely met this dude and he was talking our life spot on then he asked if we sure that we don't need anything and I was thinking why not so I said my grades, so he closed his eyes and said a prayer and he left, a couple days later there was 1 1/2 weeks of school left and I had a 3.3 gpa, I was screwed but then on all my finals I miraculously scored 100% on every test which never even happened to me before and all of a sudden everything went my way so in 1 1/2 weeks I made a jump from a 3.3 to a 3.77 gpa which is close to impossible but after something like this it really made me wonder if there's actually a controlling force outside of what meets the eye

Regardless. Karma is a female dog.

Belief or not, don't be a scumbag asshole. Almighty God wouldn't blame you for living your life as your own with the free will said to be given by God. It's a gift embrace it, make the world a better place. Help when you can, do whatever you can to make it positive to those around you.

Lesson Learned: Don't be a duck.

im gonna assume youre a teenager. i had those exact thoughts at that age due to having a really catholic mother trying to raise me to be a very devout catholic. the fact that those around you just mindlessly believe due to various reasons or you live in a very christian environment where nobody questioned.

the only thing that is fact is that we do not know what happens after death or if there is even an after life. its not like you can go ask a dead person....

My problem is that they use our currant lack of understanding to their advantage as if it makes their point. Over the course of human civilization its been like this:

Yea so the earth isn't held up by pillars and we are held in place by a mix of gravitational forces. That's just a metaphor, but everything else is real.

Ok so there isn't really a "heaven" in the sky, just a gradient of atmospheric gases, and there isn't a "hell" below the earth just swirling molten metals. That's just a metaphor like the pillars, everything else is real though.

Well of course Noah's ark is just a metaphor, a "worldwide" flood probably meant "locally" and "kinds" can't mean species obviously there are too many to save if that was true. The flood is just a metaphor like the previous two, but everything else is real.

A reasonable Christian will accept evolution. Its the only reasonable explanation, creation is just a metaphor for how we were created. Everything else is real though.

And when the origin of the universe will be finally understood -> No serious Christian believes in the accounts of the bible, the whole text is just metaphors. But God is real though.

mhm....

Personally, religion has done tons of great things for individuals, but harmed society at large. I mean, religion acts as a sort of division of communities. Families are torn apart by someone leaving the religion or going to another religion. A ton people people every year are excommunicated by religious parents because they have the audacity to believe in something else or nothing at all. Not to mention, religion is responsible for giving the people in the crusades a (bad) reason to go invade and slaughter tons of people, as well as a reason to oppress groups like homosexuals, and in some cases, women, and kill them for being who they are. For these reasons, I personally believe all religion should be expunged from humanity, but I also personally believe that you can believe what you want to, as long as you aren't using it as an excuse to harm other people in any way, shape, or form. Punishment should be down to the justice system, not vigilante justice by religious extremists.

it's really hard to really find a reason honestly. I think of myself as a christian but sometimes I really do doubt it whenever I feel like my life is going downhill. It's all about faith, without all these questions and confusions, faith wouldn't exist.
Honestly this sounds like total BS but I have felt God's presence. It could be a coincidence but i chose to believe it was God giving me a sign. I used to steal small bills from my parents as a child and I remember using my daily devo book as a hiding spot. I hid it in a random page and one day when i wanted to use the money, I opened the devo book to the page of the hidden money, and the lesson for that day was "Do Not Steal." People tell me its a coincidence, but I choose to believe it was a sign from God to show me he really was watching me and making sure I don't stray off in a bad direction. I do believe throughout someone's life, God does provide help, but it's their choice to either accept or decline it.

I was raised catholic. I came to my own conclusions later on in life and no longer believe in a higher power of any kind, but that is my business and mine alone. This is a very polarizing topic that comes down to one thing: if faith is enough for you. It is for many. It isn't for me. That's it. If you believe: great! If you don't believe: great!

@Omegathorion: I love what you said and I agree with all of it <3

[quote=icemage11]I get the impression that a lot of people uses religion as an emotional crutch. Religion lets them have a false sense of security when something goes wrong because they believe they will always be taken care of by a deity. Some people uses religious guidelines to be a good person with good morals, which I believe humans can have without being religious.[/quote]
I like your interpretation, and I agree with it, but I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing. Sometimes, it's just naturally too hard for people to bear things alone. Religion in general, especially Christianity, tends to revolve around putting your accountability onto someone else's shoulders. Like the whole Jesus thing: if we sin, it's okay because Jesus already suffered for our sake. It's taking the responsibility of the sin and pushing it onto Jesus, rather than accepting it and dealing with the consequences yourself. And some people need that. Some people need that help, and they can't get through life carrying their own burdens by themselves.

The way I see it, Christians believe that people are innately weak and need divine intervention in order to function. But for me personally, no thanks, I'd like to think that people are strong enough to take accountability for their own actions. On one hand, there are people who truly and honestly do need that "emotional crutch." On the other hand, maybe their reliance on that emotional crutch is what prevents them from moving forward.

My conversation with religious people in a nutshell:

Me: Why do you believe in God?
Them: Why DON'T you believe in God?
Me: Because to me, there's no proof he exists. Can you prove he exists?
Them: Well can you prove he DOESN'T exist?
Ok.. let's try this again.
Me: Well for example, I don't believe in creationism because I find it hard to believe that an omnipotent deity created everything in this world, yet he still lets a lot of people suffer.
Them: How can you NOT believe?
...

Yeah.

I get the impression that a lot of people uses religion as an emotional crutch. Religion lets them have a false sense of security when something goes wrong because they believe they will always be taken care of by a deity. Some people uses religious guidelines to be a good person with good morals, which I believe humans can have without being religious. There are just too many contradictions in the Bible for me to believe any part of it. Also I hate that some people pick and choose passages that support their bigotry, and completely disregard other contradicting passages in the bible.

it's not true but if it makes you feel better go for it
just dont be an asshole

I was raised a Christian. I even prayed before bed. Kinda changed when the police man shoot and killed my dog.
Only because he could be god.

[quote=Piana]For me.
1) A church is a "great" place to find "good" people. Let it be on the surface or the inside. The thing is, it's still easier to find these people in a church.
2) I like music, and some of the church songs are really great, imo.
3) God is a motivating pusher for me. And a little counsellor for me whenever I pray.
4) As you mentioned, I don't think it'll do any harm if I choose to believe in Him if that grants me a free ticket to the Heaven. What if it's real? The thing is you never know. And I'm not a person who likes to take risks.
5) Being a Christian boost my morality in check. Most of the times.
6) It also teaches me to look into the past and see what did I done wrong, and what do I need to do to improve oneself.
7) Bible is actually interesting, if you decide to read it. And I kinda like to read books.
8) Church is the only place that I don't feel like, "Can I escape from this crowd of people now?". I generally dislike places with a lot of people gathering there.

I think these are the main reasons, there are some other benefits here and there but I'll just put it in etc.
By the way which Christianity are you? Catholic, Anglican, Baptist, or?[/quote]
Those are good reasons.

I'm Baptist.

I've never been given a good reason to believe in a god or follow a religion. I'm just living making myself and my friend's happy until I die and that's fine with me.

Because I believe that it's nice to look forward to something after death.

For me when you believe in him you get to pray and it makes you happier.

BTW @Piana what Christianity are you? I'm Catholic

[quote=chaos0]There are tons of reasons to believe in a God, but it is not necessary in one's life. A lot of people believe in God for the reason you said above, but many others believe because believing in God gives them happiness, clarity, and a feeling of love. Honestly, coming from a Christian who believes in God and loves Jesus, I just say to live your life in a way that is loving to yourself, and to others. I don't tell people to believe in God, I just tell them to do what makes them loving and happy.
EDIT: And you also seem to be referring to a fundamentalist point of view for Christianity. There are tons of other Christian views that are not fundamentalist, and they make more sense too. I suggest looking up Wesleyan theology or even read a book called "Why Wesleyans Aren't Fundamentalists". Great insights and it could answer a lot of your questions.[/quote]

Alright thanks. I'll look into that.

@Radiqal: why try to look for a reason to believe in something from other people? it's not like someone believes in God for the same reason another person might. everyone has different reasons.

although, I would assume religion in many countries is very much like a support system.

[quote=tiesandbowties]just because you don't believe in something or don't see the reason in believing something doesn't mean other people see it the same way.[/quote]

Did you even read what I posted or did you post based off of my title?

just because you don't believe in something or don't see the reason in believing something doesn't mean other people see it the same way.

There are tons of reasons to believe in a God, but it is not necessary in one's life. A lot of people believe in God for the reason you said above, but many others believe because believing in God gives them happiness, clarity, and a feeling of love. Honestly, coming from a Christian who believes in God and loves Jesus, I just say to live your life in a way that is loving to yourself, and to others. I don't tell people to believe in God, I just tell them to do what makes them loving and happy.
EDIT: And you also seem to be referring to a fundamentalist point of view for Christianity. There are tons of other Christian views that are not fundamentalist, and they make more sense too. I suggest looking up Wesleyan theology or even read a book called "Why Wesleyans Aren't Fundamentalists". Great insights and it could answer a lot of your questions.