General

@freejuspower: Yeah, that

[b]There are two different kinds of truth: perceived and absolute.[/b]

[b]Perceived truth is relative to society.[/b]

[b]Absolute truth is not.[/b]

[quote=ThatBox]Well the truth is always the truth. The [b]truth[/b] cannot change. What people perceive as truth can.
You're right in a way, what we perceive as truth now, may not be the truth. When we find evidence that points to a new truth, the perceived truth changes.

In order to understand, you have to think on an omnipotent level.[/quote]

Summary: [b]There are two different kinds of truth: perceived and absolute.[/b]

[quote=Randomness411]So let me get this straight: You're saying that if society doesn't determine truth, SOCIETY THE GROUP OF EVERYONE. Then a smaller group of individuals who can make mistakes themselves determine truth? Scientists, researchers, and scholars have been proven wrong from time to time again meaning that the truth they give could also be wrong and could be changed.

Also on a side note: Are you really going to lower yourself to insults?

@ThatBox Society has accepted the laws of gravity as fact, correct? Ok then read the #2 edit in the thread and tell me what you think on that matter, society accepted gravity as truth but then suddenly the truth that everyone believed was proven wrong, so then the truth changes.
Also you cannot think in an omnipotent scale as I said before, think of things now that may or may not change in the future, like the law of gravity for example.[/quote]

Well the truth is always the truth. The truth cannot change. What is [b]perceived[/b] as [b]truth[/b] can.
You're right in a way, what we perceive as truth now, may not be the truth. When we find evidence that points to a new truth, the perceived truth changes.

In order to understand, you have to think on an omnipotent level.

[quote=AsukuraExZ]@Randomness411: If society doesn't determine the truth who does? Scientists, researchers, scholars, etc. People with knowledge and the ability to think, so definitely not someone like you.[/quote]

So let me get this straight: You're saying that if society doesn't determine truth, SOCIETY THE GROUP OF EVERYONE. Then a smaller group of individuals who can make mistakes themselves determine truth? Scientists, researchers, and scholars have been proven wrong from time to time again meaning that the truth they give could also be wrong and could be changed.

Also on a side note: Are you really going to lower yourself to insults?

@ThatBox Society has accepted the laws of gravity as fact, correct? Ok then read the #2 edit in the thread and tell me what you think on that matter, society accepted gravity as truth but then suddenly the truth that everyone believed was proven wrong, so then the truth changes.
Also you cannot think in an omnipotent scale as I said before, think of things now that may or may not change in the future, like the law of gravity for example.

Hey! Listen!

Society determines the definition of something. They cannot change facts. They can define the green ball as purple, the ball is now purple. It doesn't change the color of the ball though.

[quote=AsukuraExZ]@Randomness411: -facepalm-
I actually did a facepalm, for real you know.

Again, society = majority. When you say society, you imply it is the majority if not all of it. So arguing society determines the truth is the same as majority determining the truth.
For your stupid gravity example, "Lets say that in the year 2305 [b]we[/b] find a way to change the gravitational pull to where it repels something", keyword [b]we[/b]. Had you read my paragraph, you would of realized your statement society = truth actually works here. As we means us, the people, as in man-made, as in we made a man-made piece of technology that could change how gravity works. Also that wouldn't be the only way to allow me to call your argument stupid. The other way is that it is a fact that "the truth would be that you cannot change gravities pull on an object. ". Don't know what I'm trying to say? Unlike people thinking the earth was flat, keyword thinking. It is a fact that currently you cannot change gravity's pull on an object. While one wasn't true, the other one was. So it's not the same you ding-dong, the people who thought, or knew, that gravity's pull couldn't be changed wouldn't be idiots.

Why don't you answer this for me then, "If society agreed that society = truth was false, would society still be correct?"[/quote]

If society doesn't determine the truth about things: then what does?
To answer your question: If society agreed that society = truth was false then society = truth upon the instant after society came to that conclusion, then truth past that point would no longer be determined by society but rather... what? If society came to that conclusion then we wouldn't have any truths, or rather no one would accept them as they would not be accepted by society.

[quote=TheBlawb]All of your arguments are invalid.[/quote]

Because society (Almost everyone who came into the thread) thinks that way, if everyone thought the way I did then the opinion I had written then would become fact for everyone in this thread until proven otherwise.

[quote=AsukuraExZ]@Randomness411:
[b]AD POPULUM[/b]
[b]MY QUOTED PARAGRAPH WAS THE REPLY![/b]
Learn to read dammit! Are you being serious here? I didn't think anyone could be this . . . . .I'm dumbfounded, really I am.[/quote]

Again: I read it but it proves that majority does not determine truth.
SOCIETY AS A UNIFIED WHOLE determines truth, if one person believes otherwise than society, the truth that society has written becomes submittable to criticism and can then be put against proof that tells us that the truth that society has taught us for so long was realistically to the current time period- not true.
And again: Tell me how you would take down the gravity example? Hm? I've asked you 3 times yet you've yet to do it.. I'm beginning to think that you can't.

[quote=AsukuraExZ]@Randomness411: Learn to read, and your gravity example sucks.
" No it isn't actually. What you're thinking about is something like math, a concept/idea that is man-made. If it's man-made then it can be changed depending on the society, such as "values". Which is changed all the time depending on the society. However something that isn't man-made can't be. You can call a tree something else, but a tree is still a tree.
Society could think the world is made of fluffy bunnies, but the truth is that is isn't, all it means is that society is stupid if society thinks the world is made of fluffy bunnies.

Edit: Just so the TS won't become conceded, me using the example of math and how that society can determine what is true about it does not make you correct. You weren't arguing that, you were arguing majority = truth, which is a fallacy. Had you been more specific, then you would of been correct, but you weren't. Heck, most of the time it seems that thought didn't even cross your mind. You actually believed majority = truth."[/quote]

I've been arguing that society determines what truth is, I always have been. Read the first sentence of the thread.
Also you didn't even respond to the gravity example other than saying "it sucks". Please, respond to it. Tell me how everyone in the entire world as of Issac Newton's law of gravity to the year 2305 would be idiots. Explain that.

You may not have read carefully enough before I made any edits. Truth is relative to society, inside the room with 10 people, the 10 people make up the society and therefore they create the truth in that room.

[quote=DismalciousX]Your logic is so ignorant it's not even a good attempt at trolling. Like crazychaos said, if 9 people say there is no door out of the room, and you walk out of the room you prove everyone wrong. Even though your not the majority. If everyone in the entire world said there's no way out and you got out, that's not truth. It's a fact.[/quote]

What if the door was in superposition, that there is/no door at the same time that leads to the outside. But because you did something which collapsed the waves, you observed what you observed.

[quote=DismalciousX]Your logic is so ignorant it's not even a good attempt at trolling. Like crazychaos said, if 9 people say there is no door out of the room, and you walk out of the room you prove everyone wrong. Even though your not the majority. If everyone in the entire world said there's no way out and you got out, that's not truth. It's a fact.[/quote]

Please read the last edit in that response so you can see how I explain why crazychaos proves my point.

@AsukuraExZ Please tell me how my gravity example (edit #2 in thread) works with your definition of truth, because by your definition truth is a universal thing that extends to the end of time, and the end of time we can assume that nothing exists anymore so truth no longer exists. Does truth not exist to you?

[quote=DismalciousX]I can prove it.
If I have 1 pencil. My friend gives me another pencil. I currently have 2 pencils.
1+1=2[/quote]

Your friend is not in the room, remember? It's just 9 of me.
Also 1+1 according to me in the room would not be 2 but rather the number you said, society makes the rules, they make the facts as well.

@balls I'm neither trying to gain popularity nor am I trying to do my homework. I'm practicing if you must know.

@CrazyChaosZ0 You actually just proved my point, thank you.
If everyone is in the room and says there is no way out, at that time there is no way out. But then you come along and walk out of the door then you have provided evidence that the past truth was incorrect, so now your truth lives on as the current truth, but then who knows? That door could lead to another room- then another. Then once all hope is lost, and you accept that there is no way out as truth- the door opens to reveal a way out which then becomes the new truth.

Take 2 people, then take another set of 2 people. Group them together and now you have 4. That proves 2+2=4. If they deny that, doesn't that just make them ignorant? If the room has a way out. A door. Everyone in the room says that there is no way out, that makes it truth then, right? What happens when you walk right out of that door? Is it like dividing by zero? No, you walk out the door and prove everyone to be wrong.

[quote=Teaful]If I`m in a room with 9 idiots (9 duplicates of you) and they all say 1+1=52354, while I say 1+1=2, I`m still right.[/quote]

Can you prove that 1+1=2? No. And seeing as society rarely needs proof to justify something- 1+1 in that room would =52354

@AsukuraExZ So how does ClementZ scenario differ from the world once being thought of as flat?

[quote=AsukuraExZ]You dumbed it all the way down until it was just plain stupidity, your reasoning is incredibly flawed.[/quote]

Answer this then: If society does not determine truth, then who does? What power is there above us (that can be proven) that creates these truths? Because if you stand by what you say, then things we know of right now in the current day could turn out to be false and therefore not true- you are looking to the future when you SHOULD be looking at the present.

[quote=AsukuraExZ]@Randomness411: Man, learn to read. "We got [b]these[/b] idiots that actually thought the earth [b]was[/b] flat."
"These" was an indication and "was" made it past tense. Meaning the people who had thought it [b]is[/b] flat is different from the people who thought it [b]was[/b] flat. So the "these" I used indicated you, the group who thought that it [b]was[/b] flat. Different from the group that had thought it [b]is[/b] flat.

Get it now?

@ClementZ: No it isn't actually. What you're thinking about is something like math, a concept/idea that is man-made. If it's man-made then it can be changed depending on the society, such as "values". Which is changed all the time depending on the society. However something that isn't man-made can't be. You can call a tree something else, but a tree is still a tree.
Society could think the world is made of fluffy bunnies, but the truth is that is isn't, all it means is that society is stupid if society thinks the world is made of fluffy bunnies.

Edit: Just so the TS won't become conceded, me using the example of math and how that society can determine what is true about it does not make you correct. You weren't arguing that, you were arguing majority = truth, which is a fallacy. Had you been more specific, then you would of been correct, but you weren't. Heck, most of the time it seems that thought didn't even cross your mind. You actually believed majority = truth.[/quote]

Lets build upon your example then; the world is made out of fluffy bunnies.
If [b]every[/b] member of society believes that the world is made out of fluffy bunnies, and no one has proof or evidence of anything otherwise, why wouldn't it be regarded as truth?
Will society as a whole be content with a self-diagnosis of mass delusion, knowing full well that what they all believe in is wrong?

[quote=rizaruii]@Randomness411: The way you define truth is why we differ.
You're still defining your truth the way I would define perceived truth.
For example, let us say one day you decide to murder Bob. However, everyone else on the entire planet accuses your brother of committing the crime.
But does this change who REALLY murdered Bob?[/quote]

My brother gets thrown in jail for murdering bob, everyone thinks it is him other than me, and I play along with the shurade(I know it's not spelled this way I just don't know how it's actually spelled, I think it's with a C or something..). Society says he is the one who murdered bob and therefore by societies ruling, my brother will have killed bob, he will be recorded as the killer of bob, throughout the flow of time my brother will have killed bob by societies ruling until disproved.
You are thinking on an omnipotent scale, you have to dumb it down to SOCIETIES point of view; to them the truth is that my brother killed bob.

[quote=AsukuraExZ]@Randomness411: . . . So . . .the earth went from flat to round.
. . .
"An fact is an opinion the majority agree upon."
. . .
[b]THERE YA HAVE IT FOLKS![/b] We got these idiots that actually thought the earth was flat.[/quote]

Crikey. Here I am criticizing the TS for poor wording, when I worded poorly.

"What is viewed as fact depends on the opinion that the majority agrees upon."

Is that better?

You can change definition with society, but not fact. You can change what is defined as the earth being flat/sphere. You cannot change that earth is a sphere(current definition) though.

[quote=AsukuraExZ]@Randomness411: . . . So . . .the earth went from flat to round.
. . .
"An fact is an opinion the majority agree upon."
. . .
[b]THERE YA HAVE IT FOLKS![/b] We got these idiots that actually thought the earth was flat.[/quote]

Yeah, about- what was it 900 years ago maybe? Everyone thought the earth was flat. I guess Plato, Aristotle, Socrates and all other great and wise people before the proof that the earth was sphere are idiots. That is what you're saying isn't it?

The earth has always been spherical, based on a universal society (what you are thinking of, that comprises the whole universe and all time from past to present)
The society of earth however at a time believed that the earth was flat, so to them that WAS true.

@rizaruii
Perceived truth is the truth to an individual or a small group
Real truth is the way society as a massive majority rules it (over 99%)

@AsukuraExZ Back then to EVERYONE the earth was flat- so by societies ruling the truth was that the earth was flat, the earth is no longer flat because society as a whole has changed their views.

EDIT: You're not very good at comprehending things are you? She's saying that back before people could prove that the earth was spherical the earth was in all intensive purposes, flat. Wherever you went on the earth, whomever you talked to the earth was FLAT.
But now of days we can prove the earth is a sphere, we can PROVE that the truth from before was incorrect, Society now ACCEPTS that the earth is a sphere so it is.

@AsukuraExZ: Yes and no. I'm saying back then, the Earth was considered flat, and was thought to be the truth. I don't think you're understanding what I mean when I say truth is relative, and that it depends on a great number of things, like, for example, society and its limitations.

[quote=AsukuraExZ]@Kinshima: What you're saying is that back then [b]the earth was flat[/b]. Unless they changed the meaning of flat over the years, [b]you're saying the earth was flat[/b].[/quote]

She's saying what is accepted as fact changes over time.

@AsukuraExZ: No, I don't understand why you would think I was being sarcastic. My point is, 'truth' is a relative term, and back then, that was the truth (from their point of view at that time). Right now, the Earth being round is the truth (because we accept that it is and regard it as being so).

[quote=iPinky]I disagree, hence why I use the color pink. They say pink is a girl's color, but who are you to decide?[/quote]

I'm not the one deciding, society is, and do you see why the color pink is accepted as a girlish color? Because society says so.

@ClementZ Yeah, you're probably right, I've never been good at explaining things to people.

An fact is an opinion the majority agree upon.

I agree with what you say, but you could've worded it better.

[quote=twist]By that argument, and under the assumption that this chat thread counts as a room... the OP is incorrect.
That's ironic, and a paradox at that. Circular logic, anyone?[/quote]

What you say is true, everyone in here (by everyone I mean at least 90%) are disagreeing with me and do you see what happens? My statement becomes false- I knew it would happen from the start.
This was actually just practice and an experiment.

I disagree, hence why I use the color pink. They say pink is a girl's color, but who are you to decide?

[quote=Randomness411]Lets use math then; lets say we found a different branch of mathematics to where everything would be increase by the number 1. You say 2+2=4? The WORLD says 2+2=5. Society determined how mathematics work by finding numerical patterns, if someone interpreted those patterns differently the world would accept the different interpretation as true

@ThatBox Actually it would, if I had a telephone in my hand but everyone else in the world called it a falajop, what would I have in my hand a telephone or a falajop?[/quote]

You would have a falajop. It only changes what the definition is. The sun is still the sun. Society can define it as a lickspickle, but it's still there.

[quote=chief1324]Chemical components of glucose- C6H1206; the world thinks its C5H12O6, but the glucose is still composed of 6 carbons, 12 hydrogens and 6 oxygens.....; I just thought of it if anyone wants to explain it more go ahead[/quote]

Society would say that glucose is comprised of electrons, neutrons, and protons. These "elements" would be unheard of.

By that argument, and under the assumption that this chat thread counts as a room... the OP is incorrect.
That's ironic, and a paradox at that. Circular logic, anyone?

[quote=rizaruii]You're arguing about definitions now. What "is" black? What "is" yellow? They're just mere definitions for us to communicate with each other. However, what each actually is in truth is unchanged. The sun does not magically "change colors." You're simply changing the definition of each word.[/quote]
Then let us say that everyone in the world is color blind other than you, they see the sun as a giant grey ball in the sky. To them the sun is grey and that is truth.
Then you come along and say it is not grey but rather a new thing called yellow? Does that change the truth that society has laid out? No, because you lack any proof to change the truth.
To change truth you must have proof- and thus being able to change truth; truth is not an absolute thing, it is only what we interpret.

@AsukuraExZ: Back then, the Earth being flat was considered a truth. A commonly accepted, universal truth. Then people started wondering and discovering, etc., and now there is a different 'truth'. I think you misunderstood me.

I kind of thought this was common knowledge.

[quote=Squirteezy]You can keep arguing that if given a scenario in which samples are divided in which a set number of them believe a wrong idea and another set, the minority, believes in the true idea; the majority will rule. However, this is still a controlled scenario where the outcome is obvious. Unless you can come up with another argument, this holds no meaning.

Color is relative so arguing whether something is black or white is pointless.[/quote]

Lets use math then; lets say we found a different branch of mathematics to where everything would be increase by the number 1. You say 2+2=4? The WORLD says 2+2=5. Society determined how mathematics work by finding numerical patterns, if someone interpreted those patterns differently the world would accept the different interpretation as true

@ThatBox Actually it would, if I had a telephone in my hand but everyone else in the world called it a falajop, what would I have in my hand a telephone or a falajop?

[quote=Randomness411]That is correct.
EDIT: Nope, the sun would disappear because that object in the sky would no longer be the sun, it would just be an object in the sky

@Squirteezy Truth is majority rules, even with math.
Lets take for example you say the sun is yellow- 500 other people say the sun is black.
The sun is now black even though you KNOW it is yellow; how you might ask? Because now the color yellow is the color black. It's all about changing the smaller details to fit the structure. This goes for math too, hold out your hands with two fingers up, you will see that it makes 4 fingers- but now put them in the shape of a W 2+2 now equals 3.[/quote]

It wouldn't change whether the sun is there. It would change what we define as 'the sun'.

[quote=loserjanette]So I see someone is enjoying their first year of college.[/quote]

I'm in high school, believe it or not.

@AsukuraExZ I did read it but again: you must consider who makes these truths- Society does. If society said that the sun would be the color black instead of yellow when we first determined the color of the sun and everyone other than you accepted that as truth who would be right? You or the WORLD. The sun would be black today, even though we all know it is the color yellow.

[quote=AsukuraExZ][url=http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-popularity.html]Ad Populum[/url]

Your logic is terrible.[/quote]

Actually it's not, truth is determined by society and I'll prove it.
If society does not determine truth then what does? Humans decide the truth for humans.
If everyone on earth says that the time of day is 12:24 but to you as an individual it is 5:20 who is correct? You or the WORLD.
truth is determines by society.

@rizaruii in a way you're right however you must think about who determines these truths? Society does. If society said that the sun would be the color black instead of yellow, the sun would be black today, even though we all know it is the color yellow.

[quote=SmackBabies]So if most of the basil community does not agree with these terms, would this be false?[/quote]

That is correct.
EDIT: Nope, the sun would disappear because that object in the sky would no longer be the sun, it would just be an object in the sky

@Squirteezy Truth is majority rules, even with math.
Lets take for example you say the sun is yellow- 500 other people say the sun is black.
The sun is now black even though you KNOW it is yellow; how you might ask? Because now the color yellow is the color black. It's all about changing the smaller details to fit the structure. This goes for math too, hold out your hands with two fingers up, you will see that it makes 4 fingers- but now put them in the shape of a W 2+2 now equals 3.

I almost though this was the same thread.

That's not really true... If everyone in the room says that there is no sun, the sun wouldn't disappear, everyone in the room would just be wrong.

So if most of the basil community does not agree with these terms, would this be false?

This is sort of old news... what's popular may not necessarily be true, but regarded as truth.

[quote=rizaruii]Sounds more like you're trying to argue that majority rule = truth.... o.o[/quote]

I'm not trying to argue it, I'm pointing it out because it's true.

[quote=Ratchetness]what[/quote]

I'll dumb it down for you.
if there are 10 people in a room and they all say 2+2=3 but you say 2+2=4 who is right?
the other 9 people are correct because what they say is now truth because they believe it is correct, them>you.