Archer Comparison - Utilities
[i]This thread is based on [b]KMS 1.2.201 - FLY[/b] unless otherwise stated.[/i]
[header]Utilities[/header]
For some this may be a key factor for character selection aside from damage and fun/uniqueness. For the purpose of this thread, my understanding of utility is a tool/skill that ensures the efficiency of your damage output. This could mean survivability (if you're dead you're dead) or ignoring resistance and defence.
This is purely a comparison of useful utilities that assist you in bossing and training. If I am missing anything or have misinterpreted any of the skills please advise me. (Disclaimer: I am a Mercedes main and I am biased towards them.)
[s=http://www.basilmarket.com/forum/2690165#DefHP]Defence and Health[/s]
[s=http://www.basilmarket.com/forum/2690165#Avoid]Avoidance[/s]
[s=http://www.basilmarket.com/forum/2690165#Efficiency]Damage Efficiency[/s]
Movement - http://www.basilmarket.com/forum/2690165/1/#44227693
Party Friendly - http://www.basilmarket.com/forum/2690165/1/#44227911
Summary - http://www.basilmarket.com/forum/2690165/3/#44589233
[b]Notations:[/b]
[*] = Deficiency or weakest link.
BM / MM / WH / Merc / WA = Bowmaster / Marksman / Wild Hunter / Mercedes / Wind Archer respectively.
[header=DefHP]Defence and Health (Training/Bossing)[/header]
As more and more bosses are starting to deal damage based on a percent of your total HP, this section is directed more towards training performance.
[header2]HP (WH)[/header2]
BM / MM: HP+40% (Hookshot)
WH: [b]HP+120-140%[/b] (+40%Jaguar Rider, +80%Feline Berserk, +20%Hyper)
[*]Merc: HP+1500 (Ancient Warding)
WA: HP+20%, HP+1500 (+20%Wind Blessing, +1500Albatross)
[header2]Passive Healing / Drain (Merc)[/header2]
[*] MM/WA: +10 hp, 10 mp every 10 seconds (Standard Regen)
BM: Blood Arrow (Drain) PLUS Standard Regen
[*] WH: Swipe (Drain) PLUS Standard Regen
Merc: [b]5% hp/mp per4sec[/b] (Elf's Recovery) PLUS Standard Regen
[header2]Damage Reduction (MM)[/header2]
[*]BM: -20% (Illusion Step, Note: 40% W/M Def [b]lost[/b] for Reckless Hunt)
MM: [b]-80%[/b] (-20%IS, -60%Aggressive Resistance*)
WH: -40% (-20%Call of the Wild, -20%Armored Crimson)
Merc: -40% (-30%Water Shield, -10%WS hyper)
WA: -30% (Featherweight) & -20% on summon (Emerald Flower)
[b]*[/b] With 80% damage reduction to counter balance, I can guarantee MMs will definitely make use of Reckless Hunt (loss of Avoid for Damage) in training but probably not so much for bossing.
[header=Avoid]Avoidance (Training/Bossing)[/header]
Unfortunately, newer bosses have been given the power to bypass your Avoid/Dodge and this is becoming less useful in bossing. However in training this is a very useful utility to have. For bossing you're more likely to appreciate being able to avoid being affected by a status. i.e. Status Resistance.
[header2]Dodge/Avoid (Merc* or WA)[/header2]
BM: +30% Dodge, +30% Evasion rate, +225 Avoid
[*] MM: +30% Dodge, +30% Evasion rate, +225 Avoid, 50% W/M Avoid [b]lost[/b] for +20% Max Crit
[*] WH: +60% Evasion (+10%Wild Instinct, +20%CotW, +30%Evasion Boost), Avoid +150, Blind chance of 30%
Merc: [b]+40% Dodge[/b](+20%Ignis Roar, +20%Ancient Warding), +20% Evasion(Potential Power)
WA: [b]+30% Dodge[/b](Wind Blessing), [b]+30% Evasion[/b](Second Wind), +400 Avoid(Whispers of the Wind)
[b]*[/b]If you're funded you can cap W.Avoid, where a higher dodge rate is valued more. The following is Rujin's analysis where MM has Reckless Hunt activated. Otherwise MM=BM.
[quote=bluebomber24] [b]Under 90% Cap[/b] - Rank is based on who can climb to 90% cap faster combined with average non-damage rate
WA
BM/Merc
WH
MM
[b]90% Cap[/b]
Merc - 94%
BM/WA - 93%
WH - 90%
MM - 61.5%[/quote]
[header2]Invincibility Frame[/header2]
Not all bosses can be avoided and this item is only really useful in training. There are only a handful of classes in MapleStory who're able to sustain [b]100%[/b] invincibility frame (unaffected by magic and physical damage) during training.
BM/MM: [b]Steig Eisen[/b] (This will be discussed further in the [s=http://www.basilmarket.com/forum/2690165#Movement]Movement Chapter[/s])
WH: [b]White Heat Rush[/b] ([s=http://www.basilmarket.com/forum/2690165#Movement]Movement Skill[/s])
Merc: [b]Rising Rush and Rolling Moonsault[/b] (The skill chains Mercedes possess makes her a very unique type of Bowman. The range of our mobbing skills are rather short compared to other Bowman classes, however we have a mobbing combination that allows 100% invincibility. In other words, in training situations, a Merc will unlikely be bothered by the lack of stance), [b]Gust Dive[/b] ([s=http://www.basilmarket.com/forum/2690165#Movement]Movement Skill[/s]) and [b]Lightning Edge[/b] ([s=http://www.basilmarket.com/forum/2690165#Movement]Movement Skill[/s])
WA: [b]Wind Walk[/b] ([s=http://www.basilmarket.com/forum/2690165#Movement]Movement Skill[/s])
[header2](Updated)Status Resistance (WH & BM*)[/header2]
BM: +20% [b]+5~80% from Focused Fury[/b] with a 30s CD(when you successfully avoid a fatal status)
MM: +20% +100% for 1s [300s CD]
WH: [b]+40%[/b] (+20%Armored Crimson,+ 20%Silent Rampage)
Merc: +35% (+25% Water Shield, +10% Hyper)
[*]WA: +25%** (+10% Featherweight, +15% Albatross Max) [b]however does not have Hero's Will[/b]
[b]*[/b] As a BM, hitting 15times takes very little effort and keeping a constant 100% status resist is not bothersome. However should you successfully avoid a [b]fatal[/b] status, your skill will go on a cooldown. i.e. Concentration makes BMs highly resistant to statuses under training circumstances and not so much bossing.
[b]**[/b] Cygnus Knights receive a further 5/10% Status Resist on top of this. While this is an innate ability, they are unable to receive the link skill from their peers. 1-120 by current training standard is not vastly bothersome and with just 2 CKs you are entitled to 10% Status Resist and 5% for each lvl 120 CK. This is actually a disadvantage to CKs themselves and therefore has been discounted from their total available status resist.
[header=Efficiency]Damage Efficiency (Bossing)[/header]
This section primarily affects bossers as a normal monster's Physical Damage Reduction (PDR) is close to negligible if you are equipped with average Ignore DEF(a.k.a PDR, which is incorrect) gear. Further to PDR, Bosses such as Hilla, Empress and RA have physical resistance, meaning you only do 50% of your intended output excluding defence reduction. So no matter how much damage your class naturally exert, it would mean a lot less if your class have little or none of the items in this section.
[header2]Ignore Physical Resist (WA)[/header2]
WA: [b]50%(Elemental Expert)[/b]
Merc: 25%(Defense Break)
[*] BM/MM/WH: None.
[header2]Ignore DEF (MM and Merc)[/header2]
[*] BM(Platter): x25%(mmship),x50% from AP(activation to be roughly at 20-30% rate)x5%(Sharp Eye Hyper) = 34.4% on average [Note: 53.8% with Leafre Set]
MM(Snipe):x20%,x25%(mmship),x50%(MAX, Min:10%) from Weakness Finding = [b]70% at MAX[/b] [Note: 79% with Leafre Set]
WH(WAB): x30%(Wild Instinct), x20%(WAB hyper) = 44% [Note: 60.8% with Leafre Set]
Merc(RoI): x20%(RoI Hyper), x40%(SR), x25%(DB) = [b]64%[/b] [Note: 74.8% with Leafre Set]
[*] WA(SS): x15%(Alb), x20%(SS Hyper*), x10%(Emerald Dust) = 38.8% [Note: 57.2% with Leafre Set]
*Situational. It's highly unlikely that you will have a point in this if you'rnt against a boss with >100% PDR
[quote=Elufu][b]Additional Notes: Chaos Vellum (C.Vellum)[/b] has a PDR of 300%, which means you require a minimum total of 66.6666% [url=http://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0An5-TcCPsuLqdHp2TV9UMjFPN25zOTRvNWVTYUF3WlE]ignore def[/url] to even deal damage (this also means that every % of ignore DEF yields 3% more damage against C.Vellum). This total is not an additive total but a [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplication#Capital_Pi_notation]product of a sequence[/url] of each source of ignore DEF.
In an ideal situation for each class (particularly BM and MM) plus a Leafre set and Luminous level 2 link skill, your total ignore DEF would be:
BM: 78.8% (Note if AP doesn't trigger 57.6%, averaging to be about 63.4%)
MM: 82.15% (Depends on distance, can go as low as 67.87%)
WH: 66.68%
Merc: 78.58%
WA: 63.59%**
*The above doesn't include any additional sources from equips or Ambition.
**Includes the PDR Hyper reinforcement, which is only viable when against bosses with >100% PDR.
This would mean the damage you do to C.Vellum would be (% of original damage):
BM: (1-3*(1-0.788))=36.4% (Note if AP doesn't trigger 0%)
MM: 46.45% (Depends on distance, can go as low as 3.61%)
[*] WH: 0.04%
Merc: 35.74%
[*] WA: 0%
Mercedes have a stable source of ignore DEF which allows them in extreme cases do up to 1.5x more damage than other archer classes.[/quote]
[b]Ignore DEF gear - Is it that important?[/b] It is highly recommended that even if you have a Fafnir Set and Max ambition that you get at least 1 source of ignore def in the magnitude of 30% or similar, regardless of your class. You'll recover around 20-25% of your lost damage against C.Vellum and this is very significant. i.e. It is important to have ignore DEF than boss% when against C.Vellum.
[header]How do I boss now?[/header]
Also, I just want to know how you guys currently play/boss with your Archers.
230 Comments • Newest first
@MrSinDeath19: Joy/fun is a very subjective matter and has been heavily debated countless times in the past. Have a dip around in the bowman forum and they might be able to answer your questions.
Damage: http://www.basilmarket.com/forum/2782310/
***
Please refer to bowman wiki. Correct and edit any changes as necessary.
I'm trying to decide between WA and BM right now. In anyone's opinion which class is more enjoyable, and what class has the higher DPM (I realize WA are getting nerfed in the future, but I'm more interested in right now).
@Kuraitou: Thank you very much for you input ! I'll keep that in mind and we'll just have to wait and see after the revamp .
[quote=TheQueen]Sorry if this has been asked before but, how are Wild Hunters when it comes to bossing compared to the other archers (especially with the revamp coming up for the Wild Hunter) ? Thank you for your help .[/quote]
WH is, mechanically, the simplest bowman to play at bosses right now. At single part bosses you just spam WAB dropping it for HAU when it's off CD. At multi-part bosses you can use WAB/SR at your discretion + HAU. WH are at a severe disadvantage at some bosses because while mounted they have a large hitbox, making it harder to evade map effects like the falling spires at Vellum or meteors at Magnus.
After the revamp we get a double jump a la Xenon and AB, and Dash'n'Slash can be used without an enemy in front of you like the RED Adventurer Warrior rushes. Both of these changes increase horizontal movement dramatically, so it should be easier to dodge attacks at RA and the dark genesis at Empress. White Heat Rush can be used to dodge Magnus' spin attack and Draw Back lets you put distance between yourself and a boss without sacrificing damage. I'm not sure how I feel about it being a toggle skill; seems like it would be awkward to use, but we'll see when it comes out.
@Elufu: Ah, I see. thank you for your input ! . I'll just wait and see after they get revamped.
@TheQueen: Their base damage is fair (higher than Mercedes) but they're not really great with ignoring the bosses resistances, so you'll tend to find that alot of your damage fall out from here.
Otherwise in terms of gameplay, I suspect when they get "drawback" everything should be nice and smooth. At the moment.. they don't really have anything that attracts me personally. I'm not a WH..(I only have a 3rd job WH) so I probably can't help much here.
Summoning @kuraitou.
Sorry if this has been asked before but, how are Wild Hunters when it comes to bossing compared to the other archers (especially with the revamp coming up for the Wild Hunter) ? Thank you for your help .
@bluebomber24: I can do that of course. In fact I have a word document.. for all this. Just not motivated to make frequent updates. Maybe if there's a major change in the classes.
[quote=Elufu]I'm going to be honest and mention that I have no interest in updating this post anymore. Whatever causing that cloudflare error is forcing me to dissect the information and overwrite past comments.. and it's very bothersome and discouraging.[/quote]
you can't copy for reposting in the future when you feel like dabbling in it again?
I'm going to be honest and mention that I have no interest in updating this post anymore. Whatever causing that cloudflare error is forcing me to dissect the information and overwrite past comments.. and it's very bothersome and discouraging.
[quote=xenjitsu]Here are my jumbled thoughts/opinion on bosses that I do. I play a Mercedes.
Chaos pierre: Actually not very good here because the key to killing it is killing both of its splits at once. Mercedes's enril is often times inadequate and you have to be very very very meticulous at lowering their health to do it. Mobbing both of the forms is also bad on Mercedes. On the other hand, this boss probably requires the most movement out of any, so it's easy to use our debuffs efficiently. I would say windarchers win through mobbing and ult'ing here.
Chaos vonbon: Mercedes's best boss. Can maintain attacking by jumping over fireballs, waiting on clocks, dodging stomps. Lots of movement here for efficient debuffing as well. On the last part, he starts doing that wing thing + magnus style rocks, which Mercedes are also excellent at (again, due to moving hurricane and good movement in general).
Chaos queen: Probably the worst (relatively) of the chaos bosses for Mercedes. Mob move is bad for the dire situation where she summons a mirror on top of herself. Stance on blessing is actually useful here, but other than that, movement isn't used as much here.
Croot in general: Very good because physical resist and movement is what Mercedes are best at and what croot requires. Moving hurricane was honestly a godsend for not just these bosses but every boss.
Magnus: Pretty good, applies to both difficulties. Moving hurricane once again is good. Can poke magnus when he's in the high air with enril and in the low air with jumping hurricane or stunning strikes. Spear sometimes lands you into rocks that you can't see coming which is annoying. Also has too slow of movement to dodge some of magnus's threats chaining together. A faster FJ, lower delay LE, windwalk or DARKSIGHT T.T would be really nice here.
Gollux: Decent. Have to stay in the middle, and very good at it. Can debuff efficiently while killing mobs on the jaw. Doesn't have puppet for easy eyes and jewel. However, they're pretty good at clearing mobs short of anyone with a summon. Can leap tornado from the 2nd to 3rd level and has a large range on spear for easy kills on summons on both sides. Last I checked WA's trifling whim doesn't work here for the mobs for w/e reason, so Mercedes aren't too far behind (still behind though because straight up DPS is the main thing and that's our weak point).
Empress: Not too good here. Shinsoo is a little annoying to kill and mobbing is bad for v2. On the other hand, the slower, nonhurricane mobbing allows you to tank the warrior's DR pretty easily compared to WA (who can't) for that first DR. Can also use rising rush to dodge tornados if you're not using a resist pot (I stopped on my runs).
CVellum: I haven't killed it yet (and thus haven't gotten to see all of its moves), but from what I've done: Spear doesn't seem to ever affect the tails, which is a bummer because Spear is really important there. Also mercs don't have a mob move for multiple body part attacking, so i feel like WA's are probably better here still. Once again though, movement is required so Mercedes aren't too bad. You run into the same problem as at magnus here with several hazards stacking up so I do wish I had windwalk/mobbing hurricane for this boss even more.
Overall I'd say they excel at most new bosses and are worse at traditional bosses. I personally don't party much anymore and that's why I failed to mention the party benefits of spikes/spear, but that's probably Mercedes's greatest advantage other than movement.[/quote]
For Pierre ours is glitched. Once you kill one your supposed ot have a set amount of time to kill the other.
Here are my jumbled thoughts/opinion on bosses that I do. I play a Mercedes.
Chaos pierre: Actually not very good here because the key to killing it is killing both of its splits at once. Mercedes's enril is often times inadequate and you have to be very very very meticulous at lowering their health to do it. Mobbing both of the forms is also bad on Mercedes. On the other hand, this boss probably requires the most movement out of any, so it's easy to use our debuffs efficiently. I would say windarchers win through mobbing and ult'ing here.
Chaos vonbon: Mercedes's best boss. Can maintain attacking by jumping over fireballs, waiting on clocks, dodging stomps. Lots of movement here for efficient debuffing as well. On the last part, he starts doing that wing thing + magnus style rocks, which Mercedes are also excellent at (again, due to moving hurricane and good movement in general).
Chaos queen: Probably the worst (relatively) of the chaos bosses for Mercedes. Mob move is bad for the dire situation where she summons a mirror on top of herself. Stance on blessing is actually useful here, but other than that, movement isn't used as much here.
Croot in general: Very good because physical resist and movement is what Mercedes are best at and what croot requires. Moving hurricane was honestly a godsend for not just these bosses but every boss.
Magnus: Pretty good, applies to both difficulties. Moving hurricane once again is good. Can poke magnus when he's in the high air with enril and in the low air with jumping hurricane or stunning strikes. Spear sometimes lands you into rocks that you can't see coming which is annoying. Also has too slow of movement to dodge some of magnus's threats chaining together. A faster FJ, lower delay LE, windwalk or DARKSIGHT T.T would be really nice here.
Gollux: Decent. Have to stay in the middle, and very good at it. Can debuff efficiently while killing mobs on the jaw. Doesn't have puppet for easy eyes and jewel. However, they're pretty good at clearing mobs short of anyone with a summon. Can leap tornado from the 2nd to 3rd level and has a large range on spear for easy kills on summons on both sides. Last I checked WA's trifling whim doesn't work here for the mobs for w/e reason, so Mercedes aren't too far behind (still behind though because straight up DPS is the main thing and that's our weak point).
Empress: Not too good here. Shinsoo is a little annoying to kill and mobbing is bad for v2. On the other hand, the slower, nonhurricane mobbing allows you to tank the warrior's DR pretty easily compared to WA (who can't) for that first DR. Can also use rising rush to dodge tornados if you're not using a resist pot (I stopped on my runs).
CVellum: I haven't killed it yet (and thus haven't gotten to see all of its moves), but from what I've done: Spear doesn't seem to ever affect the tails, which is a bummer because Spear is really important there. Also mercs don't have a mob move for multiple body part attacking, so i feel like WA's are probably better here still. Once again though, movement is required so Mercedes aren't too bad. You run into the same problem as at magnus here with several hazards stacking up so I do wish I had windwalk/mobbing hurricane for this boss even more.
Overall I'd say they excel at most new bosses and are worse at traditional bosses. I personally don't party much anymore and that's why I failed to mention the party benefits of spikes/spear, but that's probably Mercedes's greatest advantage other than movement.
Okay... I'm just gonna deal with the situation the VerrKol way.
I seem to be able to make small edits and additions but it won't accept anything more than a sentence at once ... pretty annoying... o.o I've logged a couple of tickets ... so if they ever get addressed then I might re-include them back into the OP.. but for now I'll just pretend the forum replies as part of the OP and leave the format as it is.
[quote=Elufu]Would anyone know if cloudflare errors are caused by large posts? o.o[/quote]
try cut parts of the thread out and see what happens
Would anyone know if cloudflare errors are caused by large posts? o.o
[quote=ryuushinou]stuff[/quote]
I noticed that Mercs will LE to the other side of a moving Boss when it gets too close (Pierre, Queen) and then gain some distance. What I said about Hook Shot earlier is the same concept.
edit: I might have changed my mind about gollux and hurricane, time will tell.
edit2: -_- Ive changed my mind a BM should ALWAYS use Hurricane on Gollux.
@ryuushinou: Blaster summoning is faster than it looks, Hurricane got an added delay. I am still doing tests, but Hurricane is kinda......meh. So far I use it like at empress when I don't want to accidently splash on a DRed Empress while attacking Shinsoo, occasionally Magnus, and if you have good timing Von Bon. Hurricane is also good for whatever you can't hit, like Regular Vellum for some reason. But so far it looks like Blaster and Hurricane have the same summoning speeds.
On other notes, Hook Shoot is pretty nice at maneuvering on certain bosses like Pierre and Von Bon. You just stay a good distance from them and use Blaster, when they get close Hook will toss you a good distance to the other side where you would DJ for more distance and reBlaster. I have also noticed that again, with REALLY good timing you can do things like dodge Von Bons OHKO ball. But its hard, I dodged his ball like 5 times in a row, then died 5 times in a row. I believe you have to use before he actually casts the ball. There is potential of this with Magnus dash attack maybe, will have to see. However, I will reiterate that Hook is not a life saver in many other cases unless the attack is slow or you have predictive abilities
@bluebomber24: Really? So you'd rather just use blaster?
Bind Shot does slow bosses. But its not that much for really fast bosses but its still something.
Bowmasters should never use Hurricane at Gollux.
@ryuushinou: What I meant is, its unlikely for a MM to ever have cap avoid with Reckless active. But yea, its moot less funding wise.
As for the comparison chart.....I never clicked on it until today >.> Looks pretty interesting.
@bluebomber24: Truly "reckless" hunt, I'll probably comment on (pretty sure I already did mention) about the loss in avoid but I don't think I'll speak for those who can cap avoid(I think the calcs you did is adequate to discuss this issue). Sometimes when I'm writing this up I forget that I need to address the needs of the less funded. In which the "avoid" stat does very little compared to dodge.
At the moment I'm focussed on levelling my main (with the daily 2x buffs) and maxing alchemy so I probably won't be able to make significant progress on testing with MM until next year. Hopefully by then some others will have experiences to contribute. (The release of Zero will also push back my schedule).
Also, I didn't know the %damage/%att calculator/comparison chart was popular... I seem to get a considerable amount of traffic for that spreadsheet. I've made a few changes to it and added extra bits to it like other sources of damage % and flexible comparison options.
@ryuushinou: I primarly use Hook Shot when it looks like Double Jump Up will fail me. If I am Djing to a platform and it looks like the mobs are far away when I am going to land I will use Hook. Granted, a MM probaly won't due this much potentially. When I am hunting cool fans I hook+Stream as you can somewhat attack while hooking.
Hooking when I see no monsters on my screen also catches me a fish sometimes.
Using Hook, on flying mobs is also enjoyable for me. I recently started Golluxing and those flying spikey mobs can get annoying to hit, so I just jump in thier general direct and hook-kill them.
Back to Reckless Hunt, while MM gets the best increase from it, it looks like the negative in the long term hurts them more comparatively. My BM as I stated before has max defences with our without Reckless. I can easily get more defense simply by using the Hyper Defenses. However, [url=http://www.basilmarket.com/show/screen/228579/0/204_Marksman_Range__16123741896909.html]here[/url] the two MMs avoid is in the 6k range and are at a stage where it will be REALLY hard, if not impossible, for them to even get that to the 8k range.
In mobbing, yea...the more a play around with stuff the more I think the gap mobbing performance wise is pretty bigger than I expected between MM and BM. I don't know if the opposite is true for BMs 1v1 damagewise due to still dealing with learning curve, lag, broken afa, etc etc. But utilitywise, I have seen it by alot for BM, especially at Arkarium. Also, Blaster is really really really good for bosses that like to surround themselves with small mobs, which much like the number of bosses that heals is a surprising number.
But, yea I have been hearing nice things about MMs mobbing. Now for MM 1v1, its been more of the stuff that we have hypothesized before, in which bosses tend to not let the MM get that maximum distance. The second limiter that I somewhat forgot about is their damage cap especially on non-physical resist mobs. Two of the people that have conveyed MM limitations in 1v1 to me are the MMs in that range thread, in which the Windian is currently contemplating switching to BM as they value 1v1 more than Mobbing.
@bluebomber24: I'll come back to your posts when you finish off with your testing.
On a separate note, I've been fiddling with my MM(mule). No charge Pierce and Arrow Illusion is amazing at DiPQ, though even with this the new spawn rate is just overwhelming.
Gonna take a while to get used to MM's skills. I do note though I don't really take any notice of my distance at least during training. Arrow Illusion + Freezer really makes it really easy to passively stay away.. and I barely use hook shot. I haven't started any bossing so I'm not sure how useful it is yet but in terms of training.. it's such a redundant skill in a MM's skill book. Double Jump suffices in most cases (I can see its efficiency in jumping platforms...but very minor).
Also the double jump height for Adventurer bowmans is definitely higher than WAs variant (the top platforms in DiPQ can be reached on Adv but not WA).
[quote=ryuushinou] stuff.[/quote]
In regards to retreat shot, it MIGHT be potentially useful for dodging attacks as it tends to react quickly and according to others have I-Frames. Have yet to test due to lag and etc. But I see potential.
Hook Shot; Not thirlled about it's ability to dodge attacks, unless the attack takes 2-seconds to hit, which is a PRETTY slow attack.
Focused Fury (the status effect skill) is not per arrow. It takes approx. 10 seconds of continuous attacking to reach 100. Having Turret out at the same time does not increase the count speed. This is more in line with its GMS skill description that implies a set rate which states that "[b]While you are attacking[/b] Abnormal Status [b]Resistance[/b] will [b]increase[/b] by 5% for 90 seconds, [b]regularly.[/b]
Focused Fury also appears to stack with Passive Resistance. While its really difficult to actually confirm this, I dispell via Fury Animation an abnoramlly high amount of Stat attacks from the mobs in Tyrant's Castle. In my tests, I leave Focused Fury at %5. I have 36% Resistance if Focused Fury Stacks with my passive and 31% without.
Magnus Sleeping Gas will put a BM to sleep however, Focused Fury appears to be negating Magnus' spider web and treating it as a Fatal Status Effect.
Random information that I probaly wil refer for BM/MM guide; For Binding Shot, which alot of players for odd reasons are underrating I am finding that quite a bit of bosses heal and Wound Shot has the potential to help the flow of the battle or minimize a players mistakes. Considering that bossing various bosses for cubes and etc is now a thing and that many players can't just OHKO a boss, it probaly should be used more than it probaly currently is.
Empress; obviously useful
CPB; obviously useful
Von Leon; he eats his mobs quite a bit to heal.
Arkarium; The Super-Weapon-Cancel-Snakes heal Arkarium. While a BM can break Super Weapon Cancel partially via Magic Arrows, Magic Arrows is a quarter of thier dpm at best and Arkarium will start getting healed by the Snakes. Wound Shot can nerf this.
Zakum; one of his hands heal.
Pierre; This would be to nerf any errors wheter its a player attacking with the wrong hat or killing twin pierre improperly.
Gollux; I believe he heals evertime he eats you. Nerfing this isn't a bad idea at all.
Mori Ranmaru; Can summon a spirit to heal him. Considering you can kill the spirit, I would wound shot Ranmaru before going after the spirit.
Hilla; She heals...but its not much though. Up to the player.
Black Heart Pet; Starts healing at 40% hp left. This is actually pretty huge as many players train on this thing, and if the party is too weak, they will potentially fail at killing the boss. It heals 50% of its hp.
@bluebomber24: Yeah it was an averaged single source before the change and was made ONLY for discussion purposes.. I didn't have this thread before the changes were made. However yeah that's the only way to go about it, I think.
[quote=ryuushinou]Oh god.. there's so many skill name changes.
Until I can update my post, what I have done:
- New item: Status Resist+Dodge - because dodge can now avoid status ailments(?)
- Status resist - contradicting reference
- Spiral Vortex being able to be jump casted
Currently working on:
- Skill name changes
Need advice and comments for:
- RED BM/MM skill changes
- Puppet baiting (WA, MM and possibly WH)[/quote]
While I am still testing Break, my current math is suggesting that is somewhere sround the same benefits of Buccaneers' Typooh Crush...just a flashier version for rapidfire purposes. I believe you converted Mercs original Defense Break into a single PDR source? That may be the best way to apply AB in the pdr section in the future.
@Kuraitou: Thanks. In relation to Silent Rampage's 20% status resist, I already noted that in a previous page but I can't seem to edit my post anymore. I keep getting blocked by BasilMarket's security system(CloudFlare). I've sent tickets reporting it but no reply as of yet.
Also I shall amend the rest of the changes. Thanks!
Hi there. I was skimming through your thread and found a few inaccuracies. You can search for these in your original post to correct them.
[quote=ryuushinou]WH: +20% (Armored Crimson) +20% for 90s CD:180s(Silent Rampage)[/quote]
Silent Rampage's 20% status resistance is passive, and it hasn't had a cooldown since Dawnveil (unnamed balancing patch in KMS).
[quote=ryuushinou]WH: +10% Extend Magazine, +40% Jaguar Boost, +20% Silent Rampage, +10% For Liberty, +20% Hyper, +20% Boss Hyper = +100%, +20% Boss[/quote]
Silent Rampage was nerfed to 10% when Extend Magazine was introduced.
[quote=ryuushinou]There used to be an issue in the earlier levels where stink bomb shot would miss short monsters but now that there is a shockwave effect on that skill[/quote]
Stink Bomb Shot doesn't exist anymore. I believe you meant to put Ricochet.
@bluebomber24: Oh god.. there's so many skill name changes.
Until I can update my post, what I have done:
- New item: Status Resist+Dodge - because dodge can now avoid status ailments(?)
- Status resist - contradicting reference
- Spiral Vortex being able to be jump casted
Currently working on:
- Skill name changes
Need advice and comments for:
- RED BM/MM skill changes
- Puppet baiting (WA, MM and possibly WH)
[quote=ryuushinou] Looking forward to hear your experiences of RED.[/quote]
http://www.basilmarket.com/forum/2759329
Its not exactly PDR or physical reduction, but that skill uses Mobs PDR to increase damage and it offsets damage reduction. For example, irrc Pierre has 80% PDR which is decent enough to reduce to a neglible dpm reduction amount. Which means primarily a good BM with high pdr would just feel the effects of Physical Resistance. Being conservative and assuming Armor Break only activates 15% of the time, the total dpm of the BM would feel a 44% decrease instead of a 50%. At Chaos Vellum if his PDR isn't affecting you, the impacts of Physical Resist would be 28% instead of 50%. For my BM, pre-RED [b]with PDR[/b] Vellum divided my total dpm by over 4 or a 75% reduction. If my pre-RED BM had Armor Break the reduction would only be around 64% when excluding Armor Breaks PDR boost.
Still, I prefer you to reserve this until I can test at Root Abyss as there is still an unknown variable that i have no clue what it does. Better to have a video anyway, if one is attainable.
Not really a utility but wind archers can now use spiral vortex and fairy turn while jumping.
@ryuushinou: For me the only glitch I am experiencing is that in Window mode at high resolution its range and speed is nerfed. Any other scenario, Blaster is fine for me. In terms of placement, again, I would have to play around with the bosses that are blocked, but if I am not mistaken Empress and CRA are pretty much unknockable now. But anyway, you do have to learn your placement especially if KB is invovled and your on the other side, in Dojo, my DPM would just drop because I would KB the boss behind Turret.
For Comfort level, from my experiences Nexon may have picked the Space Bar for Turret for a reason. I have found Shift+Space to be the smoothest and easiest button combo so far. I have not tested any extensive placement requirement scenarios yet because again, those bosses that have those requirements are inaccessible.
@bluebomber24: Probably more to do with comfort(or awkwardness) in turret placement but DJ information is useful and will note that. (Feels so funny to jump ridiculously far on my Bucc.. can't get used to it...) From the sounds of it though, Blaster is glitched causing you to DC after a certain period? I guess I'll have to wait on it until RA comes back.
Also, I can't seem to edit my OP because I get blocked...
[quote=CloudFlare]This website is using a security service to protect itself from online attacks. The action you just performed triggered the security solution. There are several actions that could trigger this block including submitting a certain word or phrase, a SQL command or malformed data.[/quote]
Time to report to Mr. B -sigh-
@ryuushinou: If a person has excessive Defense or Avoid. Reckless Hunt negative aspects have no impacts. For example, I have close to 20k Defense but I am limited to 9.99k Defense. Apparantly, the cap subtraction happens last, this means my 20k is first reduced by 40% due to Reckless Hunt, to 12k. Then the cap activates and reduces my defense to 9.99k.
Retreat Shot usefulness is about the same as Double jump, mainly because DJ is now that good. Retreat Shot doesn't need to be on the keyboard in my experience.
Blood Arrow, heals mysteriously fast, I may have to do more tests. But at TP, when I played with it, I was getting hit but my health never looked like it went down. This could be because of the sheer speed or something. Again, I would have to test.
Bowmasters, if they are playing their char right, use VERY little hp pots. However, that HP savings, has a price of MP consumption. We loss MP reduction from the deleted skill Concentrate while we gained a skill that in totatiliy with Turret is over a 2.6x increase in mp consumption for 1v1.
Quiver Arrows will give you no effects if you OHKO.
If you mess up locking Magic Arrows in Dojo, it can hurt you quite a bit. This is because if you defeat a monster and you go to a resting point, you might be stuck on Blood arrow. You can not switch arrows if you used them up or there are no monsters in the room.
Focused Fury at Dojo is pretty much 100% Status Resist, again due to the nature of dojo.
Most of the bosses that are mobile are inaccessible, so testing stuff like Binding shot will have to wait.
Arrow Illusion appears to be able to pull some Bosses which is very interesting, idk if this applies to Empress, Magnus, RA.
What else do you want to know?
@bluebomber24: Looking forward to hear your experiences of RED.
[quote=JjwyH]@bluebomber24,
Ahh, I see! No wonder I can't access it haha.
In term of utilities in one skill, Swipe is the best mobbing skill among archers. MM's piercing and BM's Uncountable shots do nothing but inflict damage only. Merc in other case, well, I don't know which skill they use when mobbing though...but most of them provides a debuff (-def% and +damage %, I THINK) which can't be neglected I guess. But still, my point is, Swipe's Drain + IFrames + Knockback (OH YES I JUST DOUBLE CHECKED THEY ARE RETURNED IN FLY)= No worries while mobbing / a great asset in rushing mobs by using Dash + Swipe combo (sometimes, warrior just let me do the job, thunder breaker is a completely different case though)!
Yup, but sadly my version is down at the moment so I can't do anything yet.
And just another point of view, I don't think I'm going to replace my snow white for crimson jaguar. 100% Stance is a bless man, especially for hurricane skill alike class.[/quote]
A BMs Uncountable can heal if they want. In regards Stance, does it prevent power knock backs like Vellums and Pierres? Cuz at RA, I don't care that much about Stance. But Pierres love of Status infliction, makes me want to lean crimson pesonally.
@bluebomber24,
Ahh, I see! No wonder I can't access it haha.
In term of utilities in one skill, Swipe is the best mobbing skill among archers. MM's piercing and BM's Uncountable shots do nothing but inflict damage only. Merc in other case, well, I don't know which skill they use when mobbing though...but most of them provides a debuff (-def% and +damage %, I THINK) which can't be neglected I guess. But still, my point is, Swipe's Drain + IFrames + Knockback (OH YES I JUST DOUBLE CHECKED THEY ARE RETURNED IN FLY)= No worries while mobbing / a great asset in rushing mobs by using Dash + Swipe combo (sometimes, warrior just let me do the job, thunder breaker is a completely different case though)!
Yup, but sadly my version is down at the moment so I can't do anything yet.
And just another point of view, I don't think I'm going to replace my snow white for crimson jaguar. 100% Stance is a bless man, especially for hurricane skill alike class.
[quote=JjwyH]Ah...for some reasons basilmarket was done for me for 2 days...aside from what I've stated, I'll like to comment on swipe this skill.
It actually provides invincibility frames, it begins from the beginning of the movement of jaguar and it ends when the jaguar return to its position. The fact that this skill is draining on the basic of Hp drained per mob but not Hp drained per attack (if you're attacking 8 mobs, you're regen-ing 40% hp per swipe!), and it also knockback (sadly, to me, this is going to be removed), the high percentage and okay speed, it is arguably the best mobbing skill among archers, with the drawback of lack of range and speed of casting (but it's not that bad considering wh can reach max attack speed with just skills alone).
I think I'll add this in my video too, seeing how no one mentioned about swipe's i-frames.
Edit: Another utility! Wh can buff while moving! Generally for soul arrow, booster and sharp eyes though (concentrate and blind are removed soon), this will save sometime when you just respawned (I use macro of summoning jaguar + rawr + feline, then use macro of other buffs when I'm moving forward at the speed of 190%.).[/quote]
1) Basil Down - Basil suffered a ddoss attack and had to go down for awhile
2) Swipe - Actually we are aware of this or at least we thought it had i-frames. We just never had anyone confirm it and so I am guessing it kinda got dropped off. Idk about Swipe being the best mob skill though >.>
3) Buffing while moving, If this is true, I would be legitimately jealous. That can do wonders at maps like Pierre and Chaos Vellum. That would probaly be added to thier moblity section thoug.
So yea if you can a vid of
Swipe-IFrame
Monster Capture-Puppet
Riding-Buff casting
would be very nice to see. Thanks in advance.
Ah...for some reasons basilmarket was done for me for 2 days...aside from what I've stated, I'll like to comment on swipe this skill.
It actually provides invincibility frames, it begins from the beginning of the movement of jaguar and it ends when the jaguar return to its position. The fact that this skill is draining on the basic of Hp drained per mob but not Hp drained per attack (if you're attacking 8 mobs, you're regen-ing 40% hp per swipe!), and it also knockback (sadly, to me, this is going to be removed), the high percentage and okay speed, it is arguably the best mobbing skill among archers, with the drawback of lack of range and speed of casting (but it's not that bad considering wh can reach max attack speed with just skills alone).
I think I'll add this in my video too, seeing how no one mentioned about swipe's i-frames.
Edit: Another utility! Wh can buff while moving! Generally for soul arrow, booster and sharp eyes though (concentrate and blind are removed soon), this will save sometime when you just respawned (I use macro of summoning jaguar + rawr + feline, then use macro of other buffs when I'm moving forward at the speed of 190%.).
Conversation noted. Would like some videos particularly on captured mobs being used as a puppet.
@JjwyH: Thanks for visiting.. I was seriously lacking that WH feedback. There are plenty of nosy BMs(*cough*) but not so much WH and MMs.
@JjwyH: Yea, a vid would be awesome of this, I never heard or seen this. Sounds very interesting.
Also for weapon cancel and Dr ignore am not aware of any archer that can do this.
@bluebomber24,
The caught monster actually can act as a puppet, as long as they have a magical attack and is an auto-aggre mob (this was such a huge issue for archers in the old day, haha).
The advantage is that they can have more HP than a regular puppet, making them a "Tank" to use for, not to mention they can be summoned multiples per time (Cooldown is 10 sec, their duration is 20 sec), however their lack of duration is a huge drawback as it'll be annoying and the DPM cannot be optimized while you're doing this (not sure if corsair card will help a lot or not).
But with FLY, I think this is more doable, while you're doing the retreat move, you summon the catched mob at the group of summons of boss to aggro them away from the boss at the same time (if it's boss like Von Leon and such).
But, again, WAB has very short range AFAIK, it'll be better if WH has a slow skill.
And that concludes that why I added that it is VERY theoretically in a sense.
If you want I can make a video to demonstrate it, sometimes, when I'm free :x
@JjwyH: Assume the numbers for WH are correct in the DPM charts. Yes, WH are probaly one of the most likely Archers to reach thier DPM ceiling due to thier utilities.
WH caught monster? Actually I have no idea how that skill works or the benefits. Can you elaborate a bit more, like the average monster a WH would use, etc.
@bluebomber24,
Yeah, for some reason, the original resistance are the most unplayed classes in their own class family, ever...
I agree to the hitbox issue from the death ball perspective though, heck, I even unmounted to do jq more conveniently and successfully...
A few other advantages I would like to add (although some of them are really minor).
-Able to hit a lot of platforms if you use arrow skills while mounting the Jaguar, when you are attempting to jump shoot (compared it to other archers class, they can jump shoot as well but their projectile launch at their initial jumping area but WH can actually and literally shoot at the mid air), not that it matters in many scenario though
-The DPM chart seems to be able to be applied in WH case, seeing how it has 100% Stance, able to move while shooting WAB, along with the FLY update, it seems to be one of the, if not, the only class that can present the ideal dpm chart result (although you do have to take into account of status resistance [variable depending on Willpower, Resistance potion, CK's link skill] and the fact that they have a large hitbox [and their lack of damage reduction too] which will result in more potting scenario [I can't 100% confirm this, but this can be neglected if manual/auto-pot works when you're spamming WAB continuously], reducing their dpm due to potting issue).
-If you know how to use the err...the one that summon the mob you catched, efficiently, you can actually control the map, or in some case, even the summons of the boss (VERY theoretically concept, but achievable). Arguably, if I'm not mistaken, if you're able to catch some really high level monster (like the one from future henesys or err, I again forgot what it is called ), their HP is higher than what an usual Puppet has.
-They have Potion Mastery! Which can be fully neglected seeing how Mana Bulls, Honster and Ginger Ale are used instead...
-They can easily achieve Max attack speed without spending a meso where the other archers have this issue
I think that's all o.o
Edit: I think it's good to have a section on which archers can penetrate through DR / Cancel Wa too! IIRC, some of them can do it.
[quote=JjwyH]So much love for bowmaster, Mercedes and maskman...no love for wild hunter!
OT: I think, based on the err...chart(?), wild hunter seems to have the most balanced utilities out there while excelling at hp, stance and continuing attacking department( I personally think this is very very important for hurricane skill classes, this make their dpm more stable and realistic)...and it seems that wild hunter has more party buffs (se and call of the...forgot what name). I don't think the larger hitbox mattered that much, seeing how the boss's attacks are almost all aoe based (maybe not those zakum pillars alike attacks which could be avoided) and the boss map, especially newer one, provide more space to move around (unlike zakum, horntail and such that has super limited space) to avoid those attacks. It might be true that wild hunter does not has the best jump skills ever, but their 190% speed does make up of it (limited though).
My vote for wild hunter would be the most balanced class in archer family. It has everything, while not excelling at all except the said aspects.[/quote]
There's no love for WH, because you guys arn't saying anything >.<. Your population is the smallest unfortunately.
For the hit box, the areas of concern is death ball maps, where the raised verticalality gives you less time to dodge. It also gives you less options, for example, to dodge Chaos Von Bon's ball attack that ohkos most classes, a non-WH usally can duck or jump over the attack. A WH can only jump over that attack or die if I am not mistaken.
Other than that, as of FLY and even before, if I was asked which Archer Class I would recomend to a new player or which I thought was most balanced, I would definitly lean WH. They don't super duper excel in one catergory, but they perform great in all of them.
So much love for bowmaster, Mercedes and maskman...no love for wild hunter!
OT: I think, based on the err...chart(?), wild hunter seems to have the most balanced utilities out there while excelling at hp, stance and continuing attacking department( I personally think this is very very important for hurricane skill classes, this make their dpm more stable and realistic)...and it seems that wild hunter has more party buffs (se and call of the...forgot what name). I don't think the larger hitbox mattered that much, seeing how the boss's attacks are almost all aoe based (maybe not those zakum pillars alike attacks which could be avoided) and the boss map, especially newer one, provide more space to move around (unlike zakum, horntail and such that has super limited space) to avoid those attacks. It might be true that wild hunter does not has the best jump skills ever, but their 190% speed does make up of it (limited though).
My vote for wild hunter would be the most balanced class in archer family. It has everything, while not excelling at all except the said aspects.
@bluebomber24: Oh, well that's the same for Merc's RoI Hyper and WH's WAB Hyper. I have included a comment regarding that in the OP.
with or without WA's Ignore def is considerably lower than her peers. Not sure if it's unfortunate or to accept it as part of balance due to their superiority in damage potential in general.
[nvm, it's in my draft word.. but will include a comment of it soon]
[quote=ryuushinou] I'll get to the testing when I stop procrastinating. A bit lazy on Maple recently tbh.
PDR: Eh.. I didn't know whim was a special skill that doesn't get affected by any of the ignore def sources. I thought you meant that their sky song hyper skill only affects sky song as what most job's hypers do. Is there a discussion somehwre on this that I can read on about?[/quote]
No, I am not saying that Whim is a special skill. Let me put it in another way.
Spikes Royale affects the Boss; therefore all Merc attacks get PDR Boosts
Marksmanship affects all attack skills; therefore all BM/MM attacks get PDR boosts
Sky Song Ignore Defense affects Sky Song; therfore all attacks not named Sky Song do not get PDR boosts.
Thus my concern is whether you are normalizing that hyper skill in the pdr section. The WA doesn't gain that full pdr multiplier for thier total 1v1 dpm.
@bluebomber24: I'll get to the testing when I stop procrastinating. A bit lazy on Maple recently tbh.
PDR: Eh.. I didn't know whim was a special skill that doesn't get affected by any of the ignore def sources. I thought you meant that their sky song hyper skill only affects sky song as what most job's hypers do. Is there a discussion somehwre on this that I can read on about?
@ryuushinou
[b]It's absolutely/blatantly clear that WAs are stronger then Mercs and the damage advantage they have is far more useful than what utilities would do for "bossers" with more than the average range.[/b]
100% Agree. I also never argued this though but was trying to see the posters relevance to the thread. Initially, irrc, I was under the impression their post trying to add input that for the most part was relevant to the thread's topic. Once I realized otherwise, I dropped the issue and apologized (more than once) and moved on.
My primary issue, ignoring the off-topic arguments of how to establish a fact, is stating who is the "better" bosser especially with limited info. For example, in quite a bit of varying realistic partying scenarios, simply removing a Merc and replacing it with a WA can actually decrease the party's total DPM. Furthermore, when everyone starts to get their own set of drops, soloing becomes something that should only be done for fun or failure to collect enough people. So how can it be a "fact" that a WA is the "better" bosser is beyond me. Again, to be sure, I completely agree that WAs have a clear damage advantage over Mercs.
Also, you edited your thread multiple times and sometimes without advertising so. You can't expect me to know every quote compared to the writer >_>. I am probably due for another full read through.
[b]Definitely wasn't worth 2-2.5 pages of comments....[/b]
Depends on what you mean by worth. I learned a lot about a person's thought process and every argument has its benefits; whether its learning new things or reinforcing one's beliefs. Also was the most Archer topic activity in awhile.
[b]Perhaps the word "comparison" in the title is too emphasized[/b]
I don't quite see how that is. Although "Archer Utility Comparison" is a bit less emphasized than whats currently shown I guess.
PDR: All of the the other AFA skills are affected by PDR no? Does PDR lime Marksmanship ignore Final attack?
Slow: Pierre, Von Bon, Vellum. All of those you gain more dpm if you can stand your ground or have to cover less ground