General

[quote=fartlol1]Two identical twins are born, but that doesn't mean they live the same exact life[/quote]

That doesn't equate to free will. It just means they're interacting with environmental stimuli differently.

Two identical twins are born, but that doesn't mean they live the same exact life

[quote=dimo]It's actually 10 seconds, which is remarkable, great read as well:
http://www.rifters.com/real/articles/NatureNeuroScience_Soon_et_al.pdf[/quote]

Ah right, yeah I remember you posting this in a thread quite a while ago, fascinating indeed.

@bayliffgeoff Not only could the future very well be determined, but the future has technically already happened, it already exists and it is as real as the present moment. But that gets into spacetime/relativity, should save that for another thread.

[quote=TrueAtheist]

@supernoob Some of those studies actually show up to 7 seconds prior.

[/quote]
It's actually 10 seconds, which is remarkable, great read as well:
http://www.rifters.com/real/articles/NatureNeuroScience_Soon_et_al.pdf

Yes, traditional notions of free will are an illusion. We know enough about neuroscience to determine this to be true.

Our subconscious makes decisions for us before we're consciously aware of having made them.

@NonSonoFronz Pretty much the way I see it.

@supernoob Some of those studies actually show up to 7 seconds prior.

@SaneleeBoring Nurture can trigger and/or amplify what nature gave you. Both nurture and nature are important.

[quote=Snovvy]@dimo: Gimme the cliffs of "yes I believe" and "no I don't believe."[/quote]

Well epigenetics has it's roots in non-coding RNAs, if so then there is a possibility that epigenetics evolved prior to classical DNA genetics. If not then it would be the other way around. If that makes sense.

We never had free will to begin with. You don't choose where you are born, and your decisions, actions, everything you do is based around your traits and upbringing, which you inherited, you had no choice.

[quote=SaneleeBoring]then doesn't that mean that free will is just an illusion?[/quote]

Take it one step further: If there is no such thing as free-will, then everything that has and will happen in the universe was determined a long time ago.

[quote=Snovvy]So our nervous system outspeeds our awareness. That doesn't mean everything can't be genetically determined. When I hit a certain part of my knee with a hammer, my knee moves. I'm only aware of it because I can feel it once it actually happens.

Nerves aren't totally dependent on the brain. The nervous system can act independently of consciousness (people with severe mental deficiency exemplify this) and for many other creatures, they can perform basic tasks with their nervous systems without even having brains.

Again, that says nothing for this concept of all actions being a result of genetics (indirectly to be more specific.)

Would wife on the spot. I like the way you think

This suggests that our sensory perception is perfect. This is a wrongful and unfalsifiable assumption. You can conclude either that our ability to observe is flawed, or you can conclude the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle doesn't crush the idea that free will doesn't exist. It also doesn't crush determinism.

In "nurture" vs "nature," nature means biological predeterminations and predispositions while nurture is everything that isn't biological (so parenting, life experience, etc.) It's not purely how a person is raised.[/quote]

I was referring to the OP's post about free will, not so much genetics, lol. You should take a class in existentialism too. The part of the nervous system that responded to actions in the study was the brain, which to actions that the participants performed, therefore the subjects weren't aware of doing something until after it occurred. If you aren't aware of something until after you do it, how is it possible that you have free will? Like you said, the nervous system can act independently of consciousness, and cite mental deficiency as an example. Are you implying that everyone has mental deficiency?

Lrn2determinewhat'sgoingon. You might be smarter than the average basiler, but you still lack some sense. The topic of the thread is whether or not free will is an illusion, not genetics.

@darkpolearm: "Lets say you come out beautiful for example, based on an average persons taste, you would most likely have a positive attitude since ur the center of things. On the ohter hand if you come out ugly people will not seek your attention therefore you could have a colder, loner personality."

k

[quote=Snovvy]@dimo: Does genetics not determine the ability for epigenetics to work its magic? You're the doctor.
[/quote]
Well, that depends on if you believe in an RNA first world or not.

"If genetics and epigenetics determines everything". FTFY.

[quote=Snovvy]@SanelessBoring: I promise I will meet them. List them out[/quote]

-money
-big dk

Basically the plot of Gattaca.

@Snovvy: you must first meet my hubby requirement in order to qualify sry

@darkpolearm: i have a relatively unattractive friend and she is the friendliest person you'll ever meet

@SaneleeBoring: If they weren't the same age then obviously they would have very different experiences.

[quote=darkpolearm]It determines the proteins developed by the body therefore parts like the hair and what not what does that have to do wiht free will[/quote]

studies suggest it plays a big part on your personality aswell

Just because you don't get to choose some stuff doesn't mean you don't have free will.

@LowWillpower: i've though about that too, like how their friends could have influenced them as well .the article i read didn't really specify about other influences the 2 have encountered so who knows

but lemme just say that most people spend a majority of their time at home with their family. thus giving more than enough time to outweigh the influence of an outside one, if you get what i'm trying to say. but that's a generalization so..

[quote=SaneleeBoring]nurture doesn't affect you much really

for example: there were 2 brothers who were brought up with an abusive father, the younger brother grew up to be just like the father but the older one became the complete opposite

i wish i could find the source for this but i'm too lazy[/quote]
Nurture is too complex for the father to be the only possible influence on how the brothers grew up. The different experiences in their life could still have created that change.

[quote=HoboDeity]Genetics gives you a blueprint a base so to speak, socialization and other environmental factors shape you as well.[/quote]

nurture doesn't affect you much really

for example: there were 2 brothers who were brought up with an abusive father, the younger brother grew up to be just like the father but the older one became the complete opposite

i wish i could find the source for this but i'm too lazy

Take a class in existentialism. There have been psychology studies suggesting that we perform actions fractions of a second before we are aware we performed those actions.

[quote=Snovvy]@MostSwagNA: Depending on what you mean by race, maybe yes, maybe no. Chinese? Not necessarily. Han Chinese? Yeah that's a genetically unique group of people.

OT: How do we know all our actions that we think we choose are just the result of a very complex array of instincts? EX: The instinct to not abandon conflicting with the instinct to seek happiness, utilizing many other instincts to "figure it out", when we're "deciding" whether or not to break up with someone?[/quote]

how we react to those situations depends on our personality and genetics has a big influence on that.

Everything is made out of atoms.
There are certain laws that dictate how atoms will behave.
Does that mean we don't have free will?

Genetics gives you a blueprint a base so to speak, socialization and other environmental factors shape you as well.

[quote=SaneleeBoring]so if i have asian parents, i can choose to be white?[/quote]

Have you ever heard of a twinkie? Asian on the outside, white on the inside. Yellow on the outside, white on the inside.

[quote=MostSwagNA]What do you mean by 'everything'?

They don't determine race, for one.[/quote]

so if i have asian parents, i can choose to be white?

It doesn't determine the flip of a coin.