General

@star909 I don't think dark sight is that bad of a nerf. Dark sight only gets CD if you dodge a %hp attack. Falling meteors and rocks should be considered objects. Stacks up to 5 times. You're most likely going to come out of dark sight to attack again before you stacks up anyways. Would only be an issue if he uses spin move twice in a row I guess.

@lynerus @dliu456 Heal depends on how much INT you have, unless they changed the mechanics. I haven't tested recently. I only use Heal during Lotus, it's actually really OP. Nerfing is reasonable.

Coat of Arms buff probably means we won't get a jumping Mille as it can be more effective when we jump cast. IMO, still won't get a spot on my keyboard

Shroud nerf doesn't affect actual game play too much. It's just a personal thing to me. I like using it to traverse. 1.5 secs per move is better then 2. Would be nice if they lowered it to 1 sec though. I only cast it once when Cvell does lazer and then flash jump the rest of the way. I have yet to see a Phantom heavily rely on shroud during bossing. Thus, I feel like it's unjustified.

Interesting Tempest buff and Mille nerf isn't even bad. As long as Mille speed stays, it's still a buff from what we currently have. 130% > 120% isn't too noticeable if you have low range. If you have low range you should utilized the new Tempest. It's definitely an improvement, lets just hope they fix the whole Judgement draw thing. I actually used to love Tempest when I was a Phantom noob back in 2012. However, I'll find it hard for me to utilize outside of zak/ht mainly because you have to let the tornado grow and cappers need HPS over DPS. Also not a fan of that hugeass animation that overlaps everything.

For me, Final Judgement is useless with that nerf. I won't need the 20% critical rate, I don't need that 20% status resist. I don't know how well the new draining system works but 1% of max hp doesn't seem promising.

Overall I'm not looking forward to this patch or the direction Nexon is currently going in. Mainly because of the changes to drop rate. I feel like drop rate will mainly be coming from accessory potentials now. Which I don't find fair to newer and less fortuitous players (also because I'm lazy to cube for drop rate). Spider + 40% buff + 30% showdown + 20% Greed is good enough for me. I also feel like there's might a significant change in Phantoms play style. We are pretty dang reliant on Cross Surge for damage boost, and with the current change in healing/draining system, it'll probably be harder to stay full hp. If cross surge is rendered obsolete cause of this, then that means we may have to change our skill set. Just some speculation/overthinking. I hope it doesn't change too much though. I'm glad Nexon is trying to make the game more party oriented but at the same time, they're overestimating how many people actually play a supporting class or a party oriented class.

[quote=dliu456]How are you level 205 on your Phantom and still don't know what your skills do? Did you leech your way there from level 10 or something?[/quote]

I leeched some at lvl 177 i think but didn't gain even 1 level most of the time i stream me playing my char btw i don't really leech because i don't party only time im ever in a party is when i make a new char for pqs and even then i don't think i partyed on my pinkbean and i streamed it from lvl 51 to 200
If i had to name phantoms skills right now i could not tell you what they were and ive been playing phantom since day1 release and it is my main and its almost the only char i ever get on

i don't need to know names of skills and i don't really do bosses either because im not funded and i only used heal once and that was to test it healing some low amount so it was useless

edit: im not in a guild either so people don't give me free things!

Most people on this game leech tho if you go to sh nothing but leechers and hackers

[quote=nitsua2789]I use heal in Lotus, Dorothy, and HMag. I have never seen nor do I think I ever will see a Phantom using AR to support a party when a Bishop would be vastly more effective in almost all regards as far as survival is concerned.

Dark Sight is usually much easier to dodge meteors with than actually dodging meteors, the reason for this is 2 fold. 1. Placement isn't an issue and 2. Magnus can't KB you into the meteors.

I use Shroud Walk in Pierre when keeping the two separate at the end of the fight, I use it in CVell to navigate the tails & traverse the map when laser happens, I use it in Lotus to avoid the laser in stage 1 and to quickly dodge some attacks in stage 3, and finally I use it in Hellux to quickly traverse to certain spots on the platforms. A 1.5s CD per teleport does not do much to hinder it's use in these situations.

Red Card, while not as useful as it is currently, isn't really a Phantom specific nerf. Any and all drain-type skills received this change to a %hp based heal vs a dmg based heal, because anyone who capped and had a relatively frequent drain skill was fairly likely to never die. That being said it's still very useful in potion cool down situations if you're adept at dodging while attacking.[/quote]

When I was making a statement about AR I was refering to a bishop using it, not a Phantom. I apologize for the misunderstanding. As I don't go on Lotus or Dorothy runs I can't relate to using heal in these situations.

I am talking about post nerf Dark Sights were they have to be more well timed as a cooldown will be placed upon dodging a meteor if I assume this is how the post nerfed version works.

Besides the CVellum use, which I simply forgot as I use it myself, I didn't know Shroud walk had such versatility to it.

[quote=star909]I never said to spam heal, it's obvious that someone who spams heal doesn't know what they're doing unless they're a bishop and they're only there for support, even then they're most likely using angel ray and it's a lotus fight as most people solo bosses anyways.

I never said that red card was completely useless and I meant to say that in my prior statement, I simply meant that it's not as useful previously when it counted from damage than actual percentage of hp.

The delay of "popping" dark sight usually ends in death when it comes to Magnus's meteors, the only time dark sight is useful during the fight, it would be easier to just dodge the meteors than to just pop dark sight when a meteor comes down. In some situations you've been knocked back by Magnus and have been stunned, there's also bringing dark sight's new cooldown into question as if multiple meteors are stacked upon each other dark sight is rendered 100% useless in the situation. CVellum seems to be more about placement since the tails will spawn under you if you're not paying attention in the first place, paying attention to the rocks should come by second nature, but I can see how it would be useful during it's laser phase, however this seems like a more ideal time to deal damage if possible. Referring back to the magnus meteors situation dark sight seems questionable as I'm not sure if it's a latency delay or a skill delay.

I've never seen shroud walk used in a KMS bossing video, if you could provide on then I'd like to ask you to as I've simply never seen it.[/quote]

I use heal in Lotus, Dorothy, and HMag. I have never seen nor do I think I ever will see a Phantom using AR to support a party when a Bishop would be vastly more effective in almost all regards as far as survival is concerned.

Dark Sight is usually much easier to dodge meteors with than actually dodging meteors, the reason for this is 2 fold. 1. Placement isn't an issue and 2. Magnus can't KB you into the meteors.

I use Shroud Walk in Pierre when keeping the two separate at the end of the fight, I use it in CVell to navigate the tails & traverse the map when laser happens, I use it in Lotus to avoid the laser in stage 1 and to quickly dodge some attacks in stage 3, and finally I use it in Hellux to quickly traverse to certain spots on the platforms. A 1.5s CD per teleport does not do much to hinder it's use in these situations.

Red Card, while not as useful as it is currently, isn't really a Phantom specific nerf. Any and all drain-type skills received this change to a %hp based heal vs a dmg based heal, because anyone who capped and had a relatively frequent drain skill was fairly likely to never die. That being said it's still very useful in potion cool down situations if you're adept at dodging while attacking.

[quote=cherrytigers]Long Quote[/quote]

I never said to spam heal, it's obvious that someone who spams heal doesn't know what they're doing unless they're a bishop and they're only there for support, even then they're most likely using angel ray and it's a lotus fight as most people solo bosses anyways.

I never said that red card was completely useless and I meant to say that in my prior statement, I simply meant that it's not as useful previously when it counted from damage than actual percentage of hp.

The delay of "popping" dark sight usually ends in death when it comes to Magnus's meteors, the only time dark sight is useful during the fight, it would be easier to just dodge the meteors than to just pop dark sight when a meteor comes down. In some situations you've been knocked back by Magnus and have been stunned, there's also bringing dark sight's new cooldown into question as if multiple meteors are stacked upon each other dark sight is rendered 100% useless in the situation. CVellum seems to be more about placement since the tails will spawn under you if you're not paying attention in the first place, paying attention to the rocks should come by second nature, but I can see how it would be useful during it's laser phase, however this seems like a more ideal time to deal damage if possible. Referring back to the magnus meteors situation dark sight seems questionable as I'm not sure if it's a latency delay or a skill delay.

I've never seen shroud walk used in a KMS bossing video, if you could provide on then I'd like to ask you to as I've simply never seen it.

@cherrytigers: I know, but it isn't like shadowers steal things as a part of their jobs concept. Meanwhile, Phantom has stolen so many things that he has a frickin' flying ship. He steals OBJECTS like an actual THIEF. To the extent that I'm concerned, Phantom is the only real thief.

Come at me other thief classes

@star909:Hard magnus, lotus, gollux, empress: you use heal. If you mean it's situational in the sense that you'd only use it in that case, then yes, but those areas are the only areas where heal is so overpowered it would be nerfed. Why? Because all other jobs are affected by potion cooldowns and Phantoms are not.
You can say heal is situational, but obviously if you're in somewhere else, you'd switch to channel karma.
Heal has a cooldown, but all other jobs don't even have heal. They dodge and still manage to take down every boss just fine. Phantoms can also be the same. Heal's cooldown does not change anything, because if a Phantom needs to spam heal to survive in a boss fight, they're just not making any efforts to dodge boss attacks.

Red card healing 1% is not as good as before, yes, but with Phantom's intense attack speed, having a red card in empress, where there's a long potion cooldown or even in gollux, where you may have been key reversed and hit to only 1% hp, there's more than enough time for you to fully heal regardless of 1% heal.
Again as with heal having a cooldown, 1% heal is already an advantage vs other jobs. Phantoms should be able to utilize this heal rate and heal without being hit again by the boss if other jobs are able to survive with a potion cooldown restriction.

Dark sight, it's about having that option. Other jobs can survive without it, but Phantoms simply have that option. In chaos vellum, some jobs have to stand back if a spike falls, and they simply lose DPS. A phantom can walk right through the falling spike, enter and exit dark sight quickly, and keep attacking. Hard magnus, when he knocks you back and it's a 100% death situation, other jobs die, but Phantoms can simply pop dark sight.

Heal and dark sight and the 1% red card are massive assets by Phantoms in bossing. It puts is so far above the rest of the competition in survival.

Shroud walk is a skill that is used in bossing quite frequently actually. I use it for strict placement in many bosses. I have none recorded, but I'm sure if you watch a KMS phantom bossing video, you're likely to see shroud walk being used there. That being said, they don't use it to the frequency where the nerf would even affect them. The tiny cooldown does nothing to hurt bossers. It's just, as you said, an annoyance for traversing the maps.

The mille nerf happened after the attack speed buff. I'm fine with 120% if we still get an atk speed boost.

@aerodragoon: Shadowers have a skill called "steal" that makes mobs and bosses drop things.

[quote=cherrytigers] Long quote. [/quote]

I don't really see how Tempest would be good in any situation other than Zakum and Horntail where bosses have multiple parts. Since Tempest now moves I would assume you no longer go 100% stance stationary from the skill, so I don't see how that's beneficial. I don't do dojo, because I think it's a waste of time for me, so I can't have any word on that. I can't see how it would help in Von Bon when you have to turn off auto judgement draw to use it, I'm unsure if KMS has the same problem or if it was addressed in a previous patch. Mille seems more useful in Pierre than Tempest, but I can see this being situational.

Heal is kinda meh and very situational.

Dark sight no longer seems ideal for bossing, or atleast in how it's used now, I can't have too much judgement without having some experience on it. Red card only heals 1% hp so it's not as good as before, however all other classes got this nerf so this is only fair.

I wouldn't really call the nerf on shroud walk justifiable, but I can't really see any reasons against it because it's not ideal in bossing, simply traveling, however it is a class exclusive skill and annoys me personally. The Mille nerf I'm uncertain about, it did get a speed boost in the previous patch, but simply buffing it and then nerfing it not that long after seems like bad foresight on Nexon's part.

@cherrytigers Dude I totally agree with the drop rate thing. Phantom is thegreatest thief of all time so it would make sense that he would get more loot than other thieves. Heck, Phantom is the only thief that actually steals stuff.

Dude, only one guy is complaining about triple jump, meanwhile, the Phantom community is complaining about the Shroud Walk CD

[quote=lynerus]How much does your heal heal 200 hp? lol
I don't think higher drop rate means higher amount of meso does it? it means meso is more likely to drop (and it always drops as far as i know?) and even if it meant more meso 10% of 10k is like 0[/quote]

Drop rate is how most of us rich bossers became rich and maintain our wealth and spendings.
Tempest is a useful skill to use in dojo and chaos vellum and other bosses now that have pauses. It may prove to be useful in chaos von bon as well as Mille requires us to stand flat and von bon does elevate himself at the end of the fight. I can also imagine some application of this skill in chaos pierre during the kill.
As for heal, my heal fully heals me and the whole entire bossing party. Funded phantoms use heal in bosses and it fully heals every time.

As for the Phantom nerfs, everything I've seen was justified and I'm glad we are still able to use heal. There's no need to spam heal anyways. Bosses have potion cooldowns for a reason. If a Phantom player has to spam heal, that's the lack of ability of the player who cannot control their character. Other jobs are LIMITED to potion cooldowns. Phantoms should, in some degree, also be held accountable as well.

That being said, we have dark sight still (nerfed), red card, and our level 150 hyper skill that also induces healing. Phantoms are too versatile so the nerf on heal was very justified.

This nerf hurts people who have no idea how to play Phantoms. As for the Phantom players that have mastery over the job's versatility, there're so many more ways to compensate.
Maybe it's my lack of activity on Basilmarket now, but [b]I have yet to see an experienced Phantom complaining about the nerf.[/b] I think the overwhelming consensus of us experienced Phantoms agree that these changes were justified.

And finally, why are people complaining about the flash jump? If it bothers you that much, just flash jump once and that's it. I don't see the big deal.

[quote=nitsua2789]
Coat of Arms buff - does anyone even use this skill?[/quote]

Gonna raise my hand on this, might be the only one though. I still use it to clear up stray mobs when I don't feel like starting up mille or when penombre is inconvenient (also jump-attacking), so I'm pretty happy about this buff, surprised but happy.
I also like the sound it makes, but that's irrelevant.

Shroud Walk CD - Not really consequential.
Triple FJ - Awesome.
Drop rate losses - crappy but not really devastating.
Tempest buff - really strong but still useless in most bosses.
Coat of Arms buff - does anyone even use this skill?
Milles dmg nerf - also crappy but still not devastating.
Heal CD - really glad we can still use the skill at least, it has a lot of utility in Lotus.

Overall a negative but a relatively small detriment. Main losses are drop rate and milles dmg, but we gain triple FJ and tempest gets really strong (albeit still inconvenient to use during most boss fights)

Edit: Nevermind didn't see you could move with tempest now, that's actually really sick then.

If Tempest delay is 180ms (I don't actually know the tempest delay, just guessing it's 180ms) then that's 5.555 procs per second of 3 lines of dmg, plus 5.555 cartes per second plus 8.333 hits from turret per second, still slightly less hits/s than a 130ms Milles + turret but definitely useful if you don't cap.

Tempest + cartes = 5.555 * 4 hits/s, about 22 hits/s
Milles + cartes = 7.69 * 3 hits/s, about 23 hits/s

[quote=lynerus]How much does your heal heal 200 hp? lol
I don't think higher drop rate means higher amount of meso does it? it means meso is more likely to drop (and it always drops as far as i know?) and even if it meant more meso 10% of 10k is like 0[/quote]
How are you level 205 on your Phantom and still don't know what your skills do? Did you leech your way there from level 10 or something?

@deadlystabxx It's just that triple jump is annoying in general. I don't see why they had to nerf Shroud Walk if they were gonna give us triple jump anyway. Shroud Walk made up for what we lacked in the FJ department and added uniqueness to the class. The "WE WILL BE REDUCING THE EFFECTIVENESS OF MOVEMENT SKILLS" is just pure bullcrap at this point.

@lynerus Heal is very useful in certain bosses, and stolen heal is just about as effective as regular heal from what I can tell. I'm really glad we get to keep stealing it.

@deadlystabxx: It was an okay flash jump before, it'll be annoying to use now (since half the time flash jump doesn't work thanks to server latency) I think more complaints went to shroud walk.

@lynerus: Heal usually heals me to full, idk where your pulling 200 hp from but whatever most people don't use heal anyways. Also I guess you don't do bosses like CRA or care that our 150 hyper is now essentially useless. Also the Mille nerf is real and it goes from 140% (boosted last patch) to 120% again

[quote=deadlystabxx]Most phantoms complain about having a weak single flash jump and now that you're finally getting a triple flash jump, you're complaining about it? Be happy about something at least.[/quote]

only one person was complaining about it

Not really happy with the direction nexon is going in general.

[quote=luxsolis]Drop rate is one of the most useful things, it means higher chances of making more mesos from drops
Shroud is my lifeline, I primarily use it over fj because it's just so awesome. Now it's unreliable and we've been downgraded to spamming fj like xenon and ab
I don't know what kind of person doesn't use heal when certain maps have potion lock cooldown and you want to keep your hp full for chains

Anyways, I don't like the idea of having to alternate between tempest and mille, especially when there's the inconsistency with its movement speed. In fact I don't think it's even much of an advantage if any if you cap on Mille.

Depressing.[/quote]

How much does your heal heal 200 hp? lol
I don't think higher drop rate means higher amount of meso does it? it means meso is more likely to drop (and it always drops as far as i know?) and even if it meant more meso 10% of 10k is like 0

Most phantoms complain about having a weak single flash jump and now that you're finally getting a triple flash jump, you're complaining about it? Be happy about something at least.

[quote=lynerus]Why are they buffing a skill that doesn't even work right to start with (tempest) and it isn't really even a buff since this skill was meant to do high damage with less hits since millie is our attack and not it

Most of the other stuff is *who cares* mostly
Drop rate was useless
I don't ever use shroud
I kinda like the jump thing but not really needed
Who uses a bishops heal wtf is this

I seen someone post that millie was nerfed to but that ins't in here lets hope its not[/quote]

Drop rate is one of the most useful things, it means higher chances of making more mesos from drops
Shroud is my lifeline, I primarily use it over fj because it's just so awesome. Now it's unreliable and we've been downgraded to spamming fj like xenon and ab
I don't know what kind of person doesn't use heal when certain maps have potion lock cooldown and you want to keep your hp full for chains

Anyways, I don't like the idea of having to alternate between tempest and mille, especially when there's the inconsistency with its movement speed. In fact I don't think it's even much of an advantage if any if you cap on Mille.

Depressing.

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I always loved my phantom and now I'm so sad
Now final judgement is the worst hyperskill ever:
Yellow card effect removed
Blue card effect removed
Light blue card effect is useless if you have alredy 100% crit
Red card 1% heal is ridiculous
Green card effect is useful only against bosses
30 seconds duration with 90 seconds cooldown
I'm just so sad
(sorry for my bad english but I'm Italian)

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I like that you can use Tempest while moving, but fact is I'll never use it as long as it requires me to toggle cards off.
Not hyped for triple jump, mainly because I will have to learn to control it and I prefer it how it is now. Though I guess it makes sense for the class.
RIP Mille. RIP Shroud Walk.

Question though, when they say cooldown on heal, do they mean before using it after loading it into Loadout, or cooldown on using the skill itself?

Why are they buffing a skill that doesn't even work right to start with (tempest) and it isn't really even a buff since this skill was meant to do high damage with less hits since millie is our attack and not it

Most of the other stuff is *who cares* mostly
Drop rate was useless
I don't ever use shroud
I kinda like the jump thing but not really needed
Who uses a bishops heal wtf is this

I seen someone post that millie was nerfed to but that ins't in here lets hope its not