General

[quote=Deciduous]the issue is that blackface is being used, which reinforces a long history of racism and demeaning portrayals of black people. so while the idea of zwarte piet may not have racist intentions, having white people portray it by wearing blackface is. so you reach a stage where you don't want people using blackface bc it's offensive, but you can't reliably make up for it. so they campaign to take the portrayal of zwarte piet out of celebrations instead of...trying to find black people to portray that or some other alternative.[/quote]

People shouldn't whine about how everything is so racist. I'm not going to say more because most people will call me a racist then. But de 'Zwarte Piet' issue is gone. They stay

That looks pretty racist to me...

@Chema: why would it be?
he's there to make children happy

[quote=Suryoyo]@Chema: i find it hilarious you call yourself an adult
but my small childish brains don't understand, so yes please

@BoredAF: a radio station(or something else) already made a facebook group called ''Pietiete", which became the fastest growing facebook group in the country. it now has about 2 millions of likes which is about 1/3 of the total facebook accounts in the netherlands. it's probably not going to really help but it surely sends a message

@Wolkechen: maybe the word "pathetic adults" is too harsh, title should probably be "pathethic woman wants holiday for children to be banned because she thinks it is racist",
but yeah it is a really big deal here in the netherlands. i really like what that woman said; ''why does the netherlands need 2 santa clausses?", really? that was really facepalm worthy.[/quote]
Ok, a black man dresses up as Santa for a job interview in a generic shopping mall
He is hired under the condition of him painting all his visible skin white pale
would that be racist?

Chef : Children, don't you even know what this argument is about? That flag is racist because a black man is being hung by white people.

Kyle: We really didn't see it that way.

Chef: But that's a black man up there!

Kyle: Yeah, but the color of someone's skin doesn't matter.

Chef: Well of course it matters when- Oh my God. Wait a minute. You children didn't even see the flag as a black man being hanged by white people, did you?

Kyle: No.

Chef: Why, that is the most beautiful thing I have ever heard...All this time I thought these little crackers had turned racist, when actually they were so not racist that they didn't even make a separation of black and white to begin with. All they saw when they looked at that flag was five people.

This is why some racism is so unnecessarily destructive. Things like this is what sustains the continuing pit of racist hate. We're smart enough to take different perspectives but we never choose too. Why cant we just accept the traditional story from a positive light - black people were helpers to a meaningful goal, is that so wrong? Slavery is not mentioned anywhere in the tale. Its an obvious implication of what happened in the past but is it right to let he past affect the present? If we modified every cultural practice to emotionally satisfy and sugar coat the difference in development among our cultures, we would end up forging one dystopian culture free of individualism.

Kyle: All crimes are hate crimes. If a man beats another man because he was sleeping with his wife, is that not a hate crime?

Stan: If a person vandalizes a government building, isn't that because of his hate for the government?

Token: The motivation for a crime shouldn't affect the sentencing.

Stan: Mayor, it is time to stop splitting people into groups. All hate crime laws do is support the idea that blacks are different from whites, that homosexuals need to be treated differently from non-homos, that we aren't the same.

Kyle: But instead we should all be treated the same, with the same laws, and the same punishments for the same crimes.

[this did not take as long to write as you may think]

[quote=ItsMrsForYou]Well, it really is a big issue here in The Netherlands. It's hot news. Everyone is talking about this. How some people are ruin a holiday because they think it's racism (you're right about that, that makes it a big problem) I'm an adult, without the word [i]pathetic[/i] But this 'Zwarte Piet is racism!' is going to far. These days (almost) everything you do/say/even celebrate is racism for some people[/quote]

the issue is that blackface is being used, which reinforces a long history of racism and demeaning portrayals of black people. so while the idea of zwarte piet may not have racist intentions, having white people portray it by wearing blackface is. so you reach a stage where you don't want people using blackface bc it's offensive, but you can't reliably make up for it. so they campaign to take the portrayal of zwarte piet out of celebrations instead of...trying to find black people to portray that or some other alternative.

Sorry I'm Caucasian, if I say anything it will only backfire.

@Chema: i find it hilarious you call yourself an adult
but my small childish brains don't understand, so yes please

@BoredAF: a radio station(or something else) already made a facebook group called ''Pietiete", which became the fastest growing facebook group in the country. it now has about 2 millions of likes which is about 1/3 of the total facebook accounts in the netherlands. it's probably not going to really help but it surely sends a message

@Wolkechen: maybe the word "pathetic adults" is too harsh, title should probably be "pathethic woman wants holiday for children to be banned because she thinks it is racist",
but yeah it is a really big deal here in the netherlands. i really like what that woman said; ''why does the netherlands need 2 santa clausses?", really? that was really facepalm worthy.

[quote=ItsMrsForYou]Well, it really is a big issue here in The Netherlands. It's hot news. Everyone is talking about this. How some people are ruin a holiday because they think it's racism (you're right about that, that makes it a big problem) I'm an adult, without the word [i]pathetic[/i] But this 'Zwarte Piet is racism!' is going to far. These days (almost) everything you do/say/even celebrate is racism for some people[/quote]

it's no where near racism but I can imagine that if the leader (sinterklaas) is white and all his helpers are black it might feel that way to some people. Even though I would feel very sad if this tradition would be changed the opponents of zwarte piet do have a valid point. It isn't meant as but can feel like racism to some people. It's not like changing zwarte piet would put an end to the tradition, just a part of it. Traditions always change over time anyway. It's not the kids who will have less joy. Yes, the adults will feel nostalgia and be unhappy with the change but the tradition is mainly for children and that's all I care about. So if you can give children the same joy and take away the feeling of black people who feel offended. Why not?

[quote=Wolkechen]I don't see a big issue here or a reason for you to call all adults pathetic. Many traditions change over time if you think of the way some of the major holidays were celebrated in the ancient world. This particular tradtition is a big deal because racism is a hot topic for many people. You may not see it as racist but clearly there are those that do and wanted to push for a change, and they did. I'm sorry you have such a big issue with this but maybe when you are a pathetic adult you will have different views on things as well and call all children idiots. o.o who knows, lol.[/quote]

Well, it really is a big issue here in The Netherlands. It's hot news. Everyone is talking about this. How some people are ruin a holiday because they think it's racism (you're right about that, that makes it a big problem) I'm an adult, without the word [i]pathetic[/i] But this 'Zwarte Piet is racism!' is going to far. These days (almost) everything you do/say/even celebrate is racism for some people

I don't see a big issue here or a reason for you to call all adults pathetic. Many traditions change over time if you think of the way some of the major holidays were celebrated in the ancient world. This particular tradtition is a big deal because racism is a hot topic for many people. You may not see it as racist but clearly there are those that do and wanted to push for a change, and they did. I'm sorry you have such a big issue with this but maybe when you are a pathetic adult you will have different views on things as well and call all children idiots. o.o who knows, lol.

hahaha... reminds me of dwight's belschnickel

I'm Dutch too, and i'm sick of all those people who say that it's racist. My whole Facebook is full of 'Zwarte Piet' pictures because everyone is talking about it. It's not racism >.< People that say it is should learn the history of this holiday. As if kids think about it so far. This country is going down thanks to some people. Everything is 'OMG racism' these days.

[quote=Suryoyo]"we adults", please say you are joking[/quote]
Does it look like I am kidding?
Or do I need to dumb it down to you?

That pic does look racist even if it's not.
Kinda like how big tex is Hispanic at the state
Fair here in Texas. -_-

[quote=Chema]lol that photo is downright racist

you see, we adults can pierce through the facade of happyness and that tradition BS and see the racism right there behind the negro mask

while you kids gobble on your free candy like pigs only caring about indulging on your own oral stage while blatantly disguising it as a "happy tradition for kids"

If anything you should blame your own naivety for letting the lingering will of the ancient people of Netherlands get the best of you.[/quote]
"we adults", please say you are joking

@checkmastyle:
exactly, as a kid i really loved those parades through the city's and canals, where everyone was standing in a line watching Sinterklaas on his horse(or boat) and the Black petes giving Candy to children and even adults. it's really unfortunate the new generation of kids won't experience this like it used to be.
the ironic thing is the black people here are also against "black pete" going away.

@Bokchoyman: "yeah they should ban Santa Claus for using "dwarfs" as slaves"

I want to ban Christmas cause it makes fun of dwarves. Oh and it spreads religion.

@suryoyo

I am dutch and I agree with the people that say zwarte piet seems like racism. I don't want zwarte piet to be banned because to me and all the other dutch people it would feel like banning santa claus to americans. Though if you look at the matter objectively then it is racist. It's a tradition which I love but if it really offends other people then maybe it's time to change that part of the tradition.

On the other hand when I was a child I loved zwarte piet and was always happy to see him and so were all the children my age. People love them, they don't hate them and they see them as the helpers of sinterklaas not as slaves which aren't worthy or anything. They bring joy to kids. They're like santa claus' elves.

lol that photo is downright racist

you see, we adults can pierce through the facade of happyness and that tradition BS and see the racism right there behind the negro mask

while you kids gobble on your free candy like pigs only caring about indulging on your own oral stage while blatantly disguising it as a "happy tradition for kids"

If anything you should blame your own naivety for letting the lingering will of the ancient people of Netherlands get the best of you.

It's not really the "grown-ups" fault, you sound like once you hit a certain age suddenly your thoughts about the world change. It's more just that anti-racism is for the most part a very modern concept. You could say that children are born without prejudice and that it's their experiences that shape the way they see the world - but that's exactly why they're not in power.

[quote=reemo]So the issue is about "blackface" being used and the negative connotations that come along with it? There's nothing stopping you from giving junk to kids without the blackface man. Not saying your tradition is racist (though honestly it really looks like it has its roots in racism at face value), but having the helper be something other than black with exaggerated lips won't end the world. Cry harder.[/quote]
there are 0 children here who think about racism here, IT ARE CHILDREN, what they think about is a nice and kind black person giving them candy and presents which makes them happy.
and the black petes being black comes from a loooong time ago, Saint Nicholas was a child's protector, he freed several black children from slavery and took care of them, some say they are black because they crawl down the chimney to put presents and candy in the children shoes

@lindemann:
you probably never celebrated it, that's why.
Saint Nicholas is like our Santa Claus

Somre traditions are not worth keeping IMHO. You don't have to dress up like that to give kids presents.

[quote=reemo]So the issue is about "blackface" being used and the negative connotations that come along with it? There's nothing stopping you from giving junk to kids without the blackface man. Not saying your tradition is racist (though honestly it really looks like it has its roots in racism at face value), but having the helper be something other than black with exaggerated lips won't end the world. Cry harder.[/quote]

^^^^^^^^

OT: Grown ups are pathetic because they understand that black face is racist and hurtful to those of African descent? uhhhh

Blatantly bias article writer is blatantly bias