General

@Rezoina: I don't believe the Chinese army goes by Red Army anymore. That was a term used in the Chinese Civil War. I believe it's officially the "People's Liberation Army" in English. China doesn't really want a strong North Korea. I'm sure they're happy to let the North have as many famines as they can, as long as the North doesn't fall to the South. All they want is a little bit of breathing room between their border and the mostly pro-America South.

There's no way these tunnels will be showing up in Seoul though. Maybe outside Seoul, but if there are massive tunnels capable of transporting large amounts of soldiers ending up on Seoul than the South Korean government is incompetent. Seoul is as urbanized as it gets. I just can't imagine with all the construction that's been going on there are tunnels in Seoul that North Korea has access to.

Even if there is a large amount of North Koreans already in the military it would be hard to mobilize them to the border and it would still be noticed. They can mobilize faster than SK, but not fast enough that SK will have absolutely no time to react. I mean you can't possibly move the bulk of the North Korean military to one front in a day.

Yes I know. I know that once the war has started that civilians won't be of any use. But if they have prior notice (say a leaked plan or something) they can use those troops to prepare.

They won't attack out of thin air. It might look like it on the surface, but in reality wars are planned. Large scale invasions are hard to hide.

Oh sorry I thought you were saying that North Korea would win the war. I misinterpreted.

Here is my quick prediction. North Korea starts building up it's military among the border. CIA and SK spies find out about this. The South Koreans build up their military along the border. The US moves a good portion of it's fleet to East Asia to hold "joint US-SK-Japan training exercises" or something similar. At this point the North Koreans would be crazy to not back down. The US finds some excuse to dock it's fleet in South Korea until the North backs down. Meanwhile the Japanese air force is put on high alert. If North Korea attacks the joint SK-Japan-US air forces should be able to take the skies with utter ease. Once they do they will completely nullify North Korea's artillery/missile bases. The outcome of the war depends on how fast SK can pull this off. If they can do this before NK breaks through the South Korean line and takes Seoul than the war is won. If they can do this after North Korea takes Seoul than the war is still one, albeit with a lot more civilian casualties. If they can do this after North Korea takes the whole peninsula than the war is still won, just with massive civilian casualties when SK is eventually liberated.

Remember the lessons of WWI. It is almost impossible for infantry alone to break through a heavily fortified line. It took the a combination of tanks, aircraft, artillery, and infantry for the Blitz to work in WWII. In the modern world missiles are added to that equation. North Korea has a disadvantage in everything except for infantry.

@Im2Noob: Ohh, no I meant the Red Army, not the North Korean army. Pff, just a couple years ago they lost 2 million to famine, and it was a HUGE chunk (forgot the percentage, but it was along the lines of 10-25%) of their population. And I don't think China was all over for that because I remember Hilary Clinton criticizing China for not a better action dealt with NK such as pulling out aid, like SK (they had the Sunshine Policy in 1998) and US. Being a puppet government right now is also highly unlikely because a puppet government in the North would have prevented the incident earlier this year. The relationship between NK and China is more like an older brother to younger brother at best.

The tunnels that exist as of now in the eyes of the Korean government actually can bring in entire infantries at an hour, but yes, vehicles can't pass. But as I said, it's hard to know where all the tunnels are and how big they can be, because there's a still lot of land in Korea where it's inhabited in, such as the mountainsides in SK. If NK soldiers have already left those factories in those many tunnels, shooting missiles is out of the question at them on foot. And think of how it won't penalize NK to shoot their missiles like crazy either? A nuke? That's highly unlikely as none of them probably work, but their missiles sure do.

In all honesty when hell breaks out loose, I don't think Japan will do much as a safe haven. Remember that the ocean currents between the two nations (that might be the most efficient way to transport a mass influx of people) aren't as forgiving nor are those secret mines, and no one can evacuate so many civilians in that many minutes. I see that the civilians aren't going anywhere but to wait for US/UN troops.

The issue that I pointed out earlier with the physiology of humans in the Donner Party was to point out in the NK army, most of them are considered to be dead to themselves and to the government. Since the late 1980's NK has been going through some of the worst of times, and since then the NK army's participation rate has skyrocketed, and it's not ironic either. Like I said because most people are hungry and left out on the streets because of its horrid economy, many NK soldiers have no homes to go into so if they felt like it, they can move the armies, and that's why that 30 minute is hypothesized. If at any minute they do feel like it, they can certainly get ready a lot faster than SK because many of those million men already live at the military. Why else would you think that all the rations get supplied mostly to the army and as small as a pocket of rice (literally) gets served at the Great Supreme Leader's birthday if there is enough?

You're also kind of forgetting my teacher's anecdote when he went to Korea too. In the time of warfare there's not enough time for civilians who are trained to receive their weapons. Many tourists like my teacher were given military supplies, and he didn't even know what to do with them. The speed to deploy all those weapons is probably within the predicament that "you think" North Korea will go through if they were to prepare for an invasion, hell your scenario might be more hypothetical if the North got invaded by the South, which is what we aren't talking about.

That number of 30 minutes though is all under speculation if they decided to just invade out of thin air. But that's probably the only advantage and type of warfare they'll do, because it's probably their only way of some success. Of course the US will have Pyongyang under its control several hour after that. All I'm simply arguing is that NK's dog like army is simply strong enough to make a successful 30 minute invasion, but not much else.

My prediction is that they might do something blitzkrieg like, but with missiles at first hand, which would give South Korea nor even Japan the time. Next would probably be the tanks through ground, and soldiers through the tunnels, and I think that's were that number 30 minutes was initially devised at.

@Rezoina: Well for one terrorists could never stand against American soldiers in "conventional warfare". The resort to guerrilla tactics which is why casualties in the Middle East are so low. A war in the Korea's will most definitely be conventional warfare. People discharged from the army will still have experience. It will be much easier to retrain these people for war than to retrain someone without experience. That is a given, and it makes a huge difference. At the very least South Korea would be able to draw on a population base with prior military experience. I'm not saying these people will be special forces quality troops. I'm just saying that there will be a LOT of them. Remember all South Korea really needs to do is survive the first frontal onslaught. After that US airpower will utter wreck North Korea's infrastructure. It's impossible to support a million man army without thousands of farms and factories. Not to mention the roads to bring men to the front lines. Without these North Korea can not effectively wage war.

South Korea has 650,000 active personnel, with 30,000 US troops stationed in the area. Of course South Korea will not be able to mobilize it's reserves immediately. But it will happen in time. It will never take 30 minutes. The whole point of reserves is for a war that takes substantially longer time than 30 minutes. My argument is that North Korea cannot just attack the South on any given day. They need to build up their military on the border in preparation for the attack. Not everyone is on active call. North Korea has to mobilize a huge amount of resources. It's not like a simple missile strike that can be done quietly. The North has to remove literally millions of men from their homes, arm them, and move them to the border. This is a huge effort. And it'll be the most obvious thing in the world. I would argue that the CIA is one of the more successful intelligence agencies in the world. Something like this is impossible not to notice today. The South will have time [b]before[/b] the initial attack to prepare.

I'm not familiar with these tunnels but I would assume the North couldn't send large amounts of troops through these tunnels. I would say a small strike unit at most. And I would doubt that the SK government is unaware of any tunnels that lead directly INTO Seoul. They exits will have to be well out of the metropolitan area. And could you transport artillery through them? Tanks? Infantry alone isolated behind enemy lines won't be of much use.

North Korean data IS sketchy for the public. I would assume only intelligence agencies have anywhere near a full picture of the country. What we do know is that North Korea does suffer from huge famines like you said. We do know the people are starving. These are all characteristics of a poor country. In 1950 when we actually had data, Korea was around the level of Ethiopia. Unless if there has been some North Korean economic miracle that occurred alongside the drought and famine (and without any international trade), I would assume the current state of the North is not that much better.

Bombs are not meant to destroy armies. They are meant to destroy the infrastructure that supports armies. Missile strikes will not be directed at Seoul. They'll be directed at factories in Pyongyang. It won't be a Vietnam. In Vietnam the people largely supported the North. In Korea 50 of the 75 million residents are South Korean. Civilians will never be deported. The effort would be too much. I can see a Dunkirk style escape of South Korean troops to Japan. Remember Japan is a safe haven. North Korea can't touch Japan at it's current state. America can build up military in Japan forever.

I agree with you. South Korea my lose Seoul. South Korea may lose the whole peninsula. South Korea will not lose the war. And I think US troops will act extremely fast. Remember that unless if they bolt at the first sign of hostilities, the fall of South Korea will surely mean the capture or death of the 30,000 strong US garrison. In a near decade in Iraq, the US has suffered less than 5,000 deaths. Imagine the US losing 6x that amount in 1/100th of the time period. I shudder to think how the US will retaliate.

It can't be a half billion lol. North Korea's population is 25 million. Even Kim Jung-un, the legendary golfer, can not increase his countries population by 475 million. Well what better excuse to invade North Korea than to "liberate the Korean peninsula"? I can see that happening. I can also see America going to war with China because of it. One can very much argue the current North Korean government already IS a Chinese puppet government (or something similar). If the North invades the South China will be furious. Remember the recent attacks? China was all over North Korea for that. They don't want the North to do anything big because it's embarrassing for China in the world stage.

@Im2Noob: Here I'll tell you something that's not on paper. From what I hear from many people who come back from the 2 year period, they say that the training might teach them a couple of things, but within the tier of the 7 levels of your physicality, that 12 million is hard to pull up. I know of many people who have came back from the 26 month period of conscription, and said if it came down to it, they'd still won't have the mindset to point a gun and kill. Along with that fact, they were also trained in a lot of self-defense, or taekwondo, which is all close ranged fighting. Compared to a NK who's already considered himself dead (remember the way how NK usually lures people into fighting into their military) and has a gun, that's going to do some lethal damage like we see in the Middle East, but in huge numbers, because its not 5 suicide bombers or terrorists, it's a whole army.

Actually with the numbers too, its more of the numbers around 300,000-700,000 (at the VERY and unlikely most) soldiers, at best, with both SK and US soldiers, that can serve at readiness when North attacks, and I'll give you a real life instance why. My Honors MGI teacher went to SK in '02 for the Japanese-SK World Cup and while traveling around the lower Busan area; SK soldiers immediately put him on a jeep. Now he told us at the time there was a little skirmish, similar to the one just earlier past this year, which involved in an emergency. He actually was taking pictures being in the military pick up truck (he showed us a lot of them) and noticed how many people that were accidentally picked up, including another American couple that was taking pictures as well, thinking it was a special tour or somewhat. He was only in there because he was mistaken as an off duty US soldier. Someone had asked him if this would have changed in wartime and he said probably not, BECAUSE it would be a lot more frenzied. He told us that people were pulled off the streets and given weapons and uniform at very slow rate. In real wartime, within that 30-minute estimate that the US has conducted, it would already be too late.

You are also ignoring the geography of the Koreas too. Let me tell you of my other history teacher (20th Century) who served little after (I remember him saying he was born 1944, so he was in maybe 1958 or later at best) the Korean War. He first of all had big balls. He showed us many pictures that he had taken in the middle of the night, not as a scouter, but for fun, across the DMZ. Of course all these pictures were all processed, he said that the forested DMZ was heavily articulated with mines which, he knew the location of, but its underground infrastructure was as complex of an ant tunnel. Every night he told us that different tunnels would be dug or covered in and out of the border and our MGI teacher told us that the SK government acknowledges these tunnels, but looking for them would be too extensive and pressuring, because of border tensions. According to NK Hwang Jang-yop, (developed the Juche Ideals) who was basically Kim Jong Sung's second hand man, revealed around to be 12 tunnels, but he told them that there was many more that he, nor did probably Kim Jong Il knew of and where they could be led to. These tunnels that were found are now being used as tourist attractions, but only 12? Plus them being right near the DMZ too. If they were to attack who knows if they could pop up right at Seoul? It'd be hard to give a gun to a civilian in a metropolis city of 10 million while everyone is running from their lives. (keep in mind of those who had also were born in the US but went back to SK that don't have military service, as A LOT of my family members and friends go back and forth from US to SK, and many business personnel from foreign nations, such as MANY from Japan (in fact many Koreans know Japanese too, because of this and often are traveling back to back from the two nations) and US as it is one of the four Asian Tigers)

I can also tell that your information regarding NK is a little fuzzy too, by stating that NK might be bottom 20 for world's largest economy. This is a totalitarian state, and has suffered humungous droughts and floods that plague the nation's food supply, which caused an influx of kkotjebis, which are actually homeless kids running around NK stealing food. Most of the rations that supplied to NK from US and SK are often brought to the military before the citizens, which causes that "dog like" military. Many people were kicked out and starved to death. If you can recount the Donner Party of the mid 1800's, it is evident that humans will eat each other alive before dyeing to starvation, so if they were brought upon good meals by just merely working for the military, they'll do anything. Which is a strong reason why the NK military is so strong; it's military is nothing much more of a million dogs, not even human to the upper government.

I have never even brought the idea of NK infiltrating Japan, as that is completely impossible for NK can do. They're naval technologies would be comparing Viking ships to 20th century warships, as Japan has been known for its almost entire existence as one of the best naval nations in the world. Though you do speak of Japanese assistance, which I find kind of a too late thing in that 30-minute time frame. It takes about 2 hours and 45 minutes for a trip from Japan to Korea, and it probably can be cut short probably at the shortest to 1 hour and 30 minutes if you're carrying military cargo, whether it'd be troops or arms. And you can't just shoot a military missile either, because the governments do not know where to even point at, because of that simple ant tunnel that they devised. What if it becomes like another Vietnam and you don't who (remember NK spies too) to shoot? Those satellites cannot detect underground tunnels. They might already be across the border, but are you really going to shoot an innocent city down like Seoul? I think not. And don't bring up the possibility of pulling out civilians because it would be too hard in the midst of chaos where there's at least 100,000 civilians to deport in EACH city/town; like I said its 30 minutes or less.

You also seem to think that I think that SK will loose the war, which is not true even in the slightest. SK might loose the battle, and I think I have mentioned this before, but not the war. The US/UN troops will have them pinned down before you know it, but not immediately. For goodness sake, we haven't devised light speed travel yet.

And China hopefully will put long-term similarities and opt out. If they don't its not going to be very easy, as that million-man army that my Grandfather witnessed as a child can very easily be a half-billion man army now. And let's not forget how fast they are becoming with their technology and revenues. With your puppet government theory, I cannot see any of that happening. The UN delegations has imposed many accounts of human rights violations in China, such as disgusting orphanages for female infants and ignored labor laws. The US and SK will die before that ever happening, and probably the rest of the world because this is a nation that should be unified, that can very easily put the world into brink of World War, and wouldn't solve the armistice problem. Plus even if it were up to the NK's, I can easily see the citizens siding with the western nations, as they were exposed to the illegal SK goods such as KPOP music and clothing. Also keep in mind of the illegal NK immigrants that have either came back to give assistance from earned wages from China or sent to internment camps (which can be argued that might be worse than the Holocaust) and were released who exposed of how cruel China can be. About 70% of the defectors were women and among 80% were used in human trafficking often threatened by the Chinese citizens that they were going to tell on Chinese officials (if they find out they send the NKs back to NK where they'll be put into those harsh internment camps) of their presence, and Chinese guards weren't very friendly either. The possibility of is very slim of orchestrating a puppet government especially backed by China.

@PcPls123: He was charged with "Sexual Exploitation." Whatever that is.
And yeah.

@Rezoina: I was always under the impression that Korean nationalism is as high as it ever was right now. Korea spent hundreds of years as a tributary state to China. It was freed from this status only by Japanese occupation. Since then the peninsula has been plagued by civil war. By the time the armistice was signed Korea had the living standards similar to that of Ethiopia. 60 years later Korea not only raised itself from third world status, it is the 15th largest economy (as apposed to nearly North Korea, which is probably sitting in the bottom 20) in the entire world. Not only that, unlike Japan which stagnated long ago, the Korean economy is [b]still[/b] growing.

My argument that for the first time in a couple thousand years, Korea is neither in the shadow of China or Japan. It is in a position where they are fiercely competitive with their neighbors. This is led to an increase in Korean nationalism. For the first time you have Koreans denying Korea's old tributary status. You have controversy between Chinese and Korean historians over Manchuria, which was once the land of the Korean kingdom of Goguryeo. And I don't think education is much of a factor in this.

2 years of service is quite a long time. 2 years of service is a very large amount of time. In the United States, Basic Army Training only lasts 9 weeks, a fraction of 2 years. [url=http://www.baseops.net/basictraining/army.html]source[/url]. South Korean males have spent their whole lives knowing they will have to serve. It's a fact that they all know and accept. It's a part of their world. Every one of their peers will go through it to. It's different than say, the US randomly conscripting. In America such an act will be met with fierce opposition. In Korea it is accepted as reality. Even if many choose to enlist at a young age the population would all have military experience that they can use to their advantage.

The Korean War is different from a hypothetical attack of today. The two Koreas are not what they were 60 years ago. In 1950 the South Korean army was completely unprepared and under equipped. On the other side the North Koreans had received military advisors and equipment from the Soviet Union. It was an unfair contest. South Korea was standing by itself against an enemy armed by one of the two world superpowers. They stood no chance. When the other superpower, America, stepped in the tide of the war immediately changed. The Korean was was proxy war. A modern war won't be. America is already in Korea. The Korean War was fought with WWII technology. In WWII Japan was able to sneak a fleet across the Pacific and attack US soil. Today spy satellites would detect such a force before it lef Japan. You'll have a stand alone North Korea (with possible but highly likely Chinese aid) against South Korea and America.

I can see North Korea doing heavy damage to South Korea. I can see North Korean destroying South Korean infrastructure. I can see the South Korean economy being destroyed by war. I can even see North Korea taking Seoul. All these are very real possibilites. But these are very small possibilities. 650,000 active South Korean troops alongside 30,000 Americans with the full support of all American air and naval units stationed in East Asia should be able to hold the attack off before help can arrive.

In the unlikely scenario that the peninsula is lost, it will only temporarily. Britain in WWII was called America's unsinkable aircraft carrier. Japan would serve the same purpose today. America and South Korea remnants can build up their military indefinitely in Japan. Meanwhile North Korea will be plagued by South Korean resistance. America has absolute air and sea dominance. Retaking the peninsula would only be a matter of time.

What I cannot see is South Korea losing the war. I cannot see North Korea holding Seoul for a large amount of time. I can't see a joing US-South Korea counterattack failing. There will be heavy casualties in the beginning, that is almost assured when a surprise attack is launched. The reality is if North Korea wishes to successfully conquer the South, they must remove America from East Asia, which includes Japan. Can you imagine North Korea blitzing both South Korea AND Japan successfully? I don't see it happening.

Oh one last thing. This is just a little idea I've been entertaining. If such a war happens, can you see Chinese intervention [b]against North Korea?[/b]. The likely outcome of war is a American-South Korean occupied North. China doesn't want this. I'm sure that seeing North Korea destroyed by the US so close to their border will make China feel very, very uneasy. Naturally they could avoid this by coming to North Korea's defense, but that will likely lead to more American troops (remember America can strike across the Pacific. China can't. Any fighting between the two will be done in East Asia, or even Chinese soil). Another way China can prevent this is by using the war as an excuse to invade the North themselves and dispose of Kim Jong-un. All they have to is to force the North Koreans to surrender and install a puppet government in Pyongyang fiercely loyal to China.

@Im2Noob: The thing is when you bring up nationalistic nations, nations like the US and Nazi Germany come into mind. Though Korea has some nationalism, it's a fairly low nationalism. Most of the people actually look up to kids going to other colleges and universities around the world, rather than go to a school there. Many times in history, if a nation boasts a lot about their higher education system, its a vital sign of good nationalism. In South Korea not so much, in fact my Uncle tells me that a kid that goes to Rutgers is most likely to get a job better than the kid who went to the Harvard of South Korean universities, Seoul University.

You have to also put into the factor of what I just said too, with enlisting an army of that magnitude. I can tell you that many, and I mean many Koreans end up enlisting super early and studying/living abroad. I know many people who do this, and those numbers dwindle. Lemme also tell you that many of those people that were already enlisted, probably didn't learn very much, because they were forced upon their will and might be just like the North Koreans, or weaker.

From what my grandfather told me who lived in the Korean War, it took around a couple of weeks until US intervention had to be put upon, and he remembered being pulled as far as Busan, the southern port city until US/N forces arrived. Now mind you that this was with around 400,000 NK soldiers that had done this invasion. According to the US simulations that we were taught in Modern Global Issues Honors, that number would double, and the mindless missles

I will continue with this argument when I come back, sorry.

@PcPls123: Yeah...I'm going to Applewood as well, lol.
how long ago did you go here?

Yo that PM was pretty cool.

@MrLidor: Misssissauga, Canada.
It's a fairly large city. And I've only ever been to my school, so I don't know if the problem is as bad elsewhere. But it seems like a lot of people dislike Jews for whatever reason. Even my mother doesn't like to serve them at her workplace.

=/

The Israeli are being asshats.
Palestine > Israel

@waffleman Like I said in the previous thread,
At the early 20th century Jewish colonies started immigrating to Israel and the Arab colonies let them have the muddy, diseased and worst areas and the Jewish people restored it. Later in 1917 Britain, who conquered the Israeli land from the Turks, decided to acknowledge the need of a Jewish country. Afterwards in 1948 the Jewish country Israel was declared with the agreement of the UN. between 1917 and 1948 there were small wars between the Arabs and the Jews on the land that the Arabs gave them and wanted back. And their hatred exists till today.
Dont listen to what that @snovvy guy says, because I live there, and I know whats going on, I studied it carefully, and since most of the people that are part of this debate dont live in Israel they are fed with lies and dont know the truth.

@spring786 You definitely know nothing and are close-minded. Thats the problem with many people today, you just say what you want which isnt true and then get back to your shell and dont come out. If you arent going to debate on it then dont say anything. And if you do, at least let it be true and not some crap the news fed you with.

@Rezoina: Thanks, I appreciate it.

I'm am curious to see how simulations would factor in morale. I also was under the impression that South Koreans are a fiercely nationalistic people. I would be surprised if citizens of any country would lack morale if they knew they were fighting for freedom against a totalitarian state. It seems that you yourself are Korean, so I'm sure you are aware of the conscriptions. Every able bodied man from the ages 18-45 is required to serve at least two years in the military. That means that the vast majority of South Korean men 18-45, which is after all military age, have at least two years of military service. In a time of crisis, and a invasion by the North will certainty be on, every single one of these men that can still fight can be called upon for service. It's as if every single South Korean male were a member of the National Guard. However mobilizing and equipping these men to fight is an entirely different story. But if the war is allowed to drag on, South Korea will have the manpower advantage.

Tactically the US won the Vietnam War several times, similar to how Great Britain won the Revolutionary War tactically several times. If you are dealing 10x the amount of casualties to an opponent and winning every battle, you are tactically winning the war. (note by tactically I am using the definition of " of or occurring at the battlefront&quot. In Vietnam America did just this. However the North Vietnamese kept pushing, and eventually the American public broke and the South Vietnamese could not stand alone. The situation in Korea is different. South Korea is miles away from what South Vietnam was. If the Norths Army is destroyed, the threat to the South will be completely nullified. In a long, drawn out fight, South Korea can stand with some US assistance. It will not need the US to fight the war for it, as South Vietnam required.

China's participation in this hypothetical war is up in the air. If China thinks they can seriously gain from it, they will go ahead. But China also realizes that participation would lead to war with America, and right now China couldn't afford to do that. China cannot strike across the Pacific Ocean. America can with ease. China would be at an immense tactical disadvantage. I don't see much to gain from taking Korea either. In my opinion China's goal is to remove Korea from America's sphere of influence and incorporate it into it's own. How it will attempt to do this is to be seen. I'm sure you would be interested in these two articles

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/dec/01/world/la-fg-wikileaks-china-koreas-20101201
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia-pacific/2010/11/2010113034727624560.html

China's stance on North Korea is shaky. While it official backs NK, China hasn't been the greatest ally ever. China has veto power in the UN, and could've easily blocked the resolutions against NK but it didn't? Why? My idea is that it makes China look very bad in the international community to support an totalitarian regime (as does their support of Assad, but that's an entirely different topic). China intervened in Korea 60 so years ago to establish a bufferzone. But now this bufferzone is getting ideas of it's own, and is tarnishing China's reputation. China-US relations are not the same as they were in 1950. The Cold War is over, and while they aren't friends the hostility of the Cold War is dying down. Does China still need NK? Right now probably yes. But in the future China's power in Eastern Asia will only grow. They'll eventually be able to challenge the US for influence in the Korean peninsula without North Korea.

For they discriminated on a variety of different things, many of them very subjected. I mean it got to the point where they targeted anyone in power. It's very hard to classify who is killing who. Well it's very hard to classify the Cultural Revolution at all. If Mao tries to eliminate his rivals by telling students to rebell against their elders would you call that deliberate persecution? And if these same students roam the countryside unattended and completely unorganized killing thousands of people, would that be a direct act of the state? Is the Communist Party exterminated it's own citizens when Red Guards attack their parents? What about when Mao called a halt, and they kept going? The Cultural Revolution is better described as state sponsored anarchy than state sponsored extermination.

While the PLA did roam around the countryside killing people, it was insignificant compared to the actions of the Red Guards and certainly could not have accounted for the deaths of 30 million. When Mao ordered the PLA to end the Red Guards, well, that's more of a civil war than anything else.

@Im2Noob: Alright you have really valid and solid arguments, (this is where the name calling will stop, but we'll carry this on into a debat-ical manner) but the simulations done by the US were combined efforts all the available morale at the disposal of the 27 minute time frame that could be dispatched.

That (fine for this sake's argument) million man army were to attack, their troops and military power would move a lot faster and would be able to successfully, according to the US simulations be able to dominate the peninsula, because the lack of moral (not every voluntary soldier in SK is trained) and not enough people (I cannot find that fact where 12 million can be pulled out anywhere, because that's basically taking roughly the two largest cities' population in SK, Seoul and Busan together; I know for a fact from my relatives that 12 million is a real overstatement, in fact that's almost every citizen between the ages of 14-25 right there, and you have to be at least 18 to train. We all know that not every 14-25 can fight) at that given time. Their army is always trained for this and if they can at least shoot, which I'm sure they can, it's enough to liberate SK. It's a small land, as I said earlier, you can go anywhere in that country in a matter of days or hours.

Now I'm not saying that the US will loose the war, but that battle might be a lose. If anything, if China were to get into the war because of Communist pacts, it would be beneficial for the US to get into it because that 40 cents we owe to China of every dollar we have will all get null and void after war reparations. It's not an easy battle, especially because of that distance, which was one of the reasons why we lost Vietnam. You have to also keep in consideration of how China's progress might be on their technology of war because of all that revenue they are soaking up. A communist state that doesn't put a single dime in military? Name me one.

I call the Cultural Revolution a genocide by many standards from the patterns of history that have been around. In your/UN definition though, an extermination by nation, which the Cultural Revolution basically was, would still qualify as a genocide, wouldn't it? They didn't kill a mix amounts of people like in a warfare situation, but this mass murdering was unlawful and prejudice, which is the basis of many mass murderings we call as genocides today.

@Rezoina: So are you saying absolutely no bombs or missiles were used in Iraq or Afghanistan? Oh and that no-fly zone over Libya? That's being enforced by catapults and trebuchets too? No absolutely not. It's being enforced by anti-tank and anti-aircraft missiles. Western Air forces destroyed [b]1,500 vehicles, 369 ammunition facilities, 550 missile centers, and 430 command stations.[/b] All at the expense of less than 10 casualties. All this was achieved through air and naval power alone. No ground troops were deployed. And this was a [b]peace keeping effort where the Western forces, meaning they did not fully commit their forces[/b]. Imagine the West going all out. It's horrendous to think what would happen.

In an event of an all out attack on South Korea I would imagine our global warming activist would let a few things they wouldn't normally let happen. And yes, we [b]did exactly that[/b] in Iraq. We effectively destroyed the Iraqi military. Right now America is facing insurgents. Insurgent armies launch terrorist attacks. Insurgent armies tire out other armies over years, breaking the people's will to fight. Insurgent armies do not destroy armies in a field of battle (heck American dead are under 5,000 last time i checked). Insurgent armies [b]most certaintly do not conquer nations[/b]The North Korean Army is not an insurgent army.

Don't underestimate America. Sure they could do it in 30 minutes if America sat back and watched. But think about the effort it would take to mobilize 7 million men? It would be a gigantic effort. The CIA would know in an instant. And then America will reinforce appropriately. As a response to the missile attacks the other year the USS George Washington conducted some excersizes with the South Korean navy. America has stationed nuclear weapons in Korea before. Nothing new. And lol. North Korea has a population of 25 million. It'll be impossible for the government to mobilize a more than a fourth of the population in one gigantic assault. An equivalent scenario would be the US attacking Mexico with an army of 80 million men.

Besides the true professionals of the North Korean army will number well below 7 million. North Korea only has a 1 million man standing army. Your 7 million figure comes from the North Korean RESERVES, which is very different from professional soldiers. It's the same in every country. The National Guard aren't marines.

America has 30,000 troops stationed in South Korea. Not a lot, but they can still help in a South Korean defense. Here let's give you some statistics on the South. They currently have 650,000 active troops, with a 3 million troop reserve. There are 12 million men that can be called on at any instant for military service. Not too shabby numbers you know.

Please do not call me ignorant. You have resorted to ad hominem once already by calling me a "idiot American". I would appreciate it if you would stop the insults and focus on the facts. The Chinese people did indeed face many tragedies in the 20th. But the Cultural Revolution wasn't a genocide. I'm not sure where you are getting your definition of genocide, but the United Nations defines it as this way

"Although the word appears in the drafting history of the Charter of the International Military Tribunal, the final text of that instrument uses the cognate term "crimes against humanity" to deal with the persecution and physical extermination of national, ethnic, racial and religious minorities" [url=http://untreaty.un.org/cod/avl/ha/cppcg/cppcg.html]Source[/url]

Notice "national, ethnic, racial and religious minorities". Unless if you are referring to intellectuals or party members as an "national, ethnic, racial, or religious minority", then the Unite Nations would not define the Cultural Revolution as a genocide. Besides Mao lost complete control over the Red Guards in 1969. He even had to call in the PLA to stop them. In that sense you can argue that many of the deaths weren't even deliberate.

Dunno.
Don't really care.
I just think both need to realize that the other isn't just going to get up and leave. And they both need to realize that they need to come to an agreement of peace.

There's this Jewish girl at my school. And a lot of people pick on her. And when I ask why, they reply, "she's a Jew."
It's almost as if being Jewish is inherently bad.
When I ask, "why is being a Jew bad," I get bad looks, and lots of stuttering and lots of people calling me ignorant.
But no one can give me a reason. Not one, aside from "she's a Jew."

I find it's disconcerting for so many people to blindly have a genuine dislike for someone, or a group of people

@Im2Noob: I am not overestimating anything. I'm hypothetically analyzing all the outcomes per say. You can't just blantly bomb a nation [b]in this day in age[/b] without having consequences, and war in the modern era is still premature, so you can't go to anything was a proven fact of just bombing something and then solving the issue right there. If it was so easy to just press the button why don't we do that with Iraq?

You sir are overestimating technology in general right now. It's been proven through countless simulations, by yes the US, that if North Korea were to have a bad day and try to take over the Southern peninsula with its 7 million man army, it would take them less than 30 minutes even with all the forces stationed in South Korea and Japan, because these militaries are more so self defense forces at best. And SK isn't that big, trust me, I've been there and I can take a train to any part of the whole country in a matter of days. And the troops and missiles on the other docking bays of Guam, cannot reach the aid until at least an hour, which is where right now as we know of, is where all the missiles and bombs are at.

And I must ask do [i]you[/i] know what a genocide is? If you're questioning the fact that the Cultural Revolution wasn't a genocide you're really ignorant. Tell me what a genocide is really. Because this one was started and ordered by Mao, taken into a more explosive context by its civilians, like Hitler's Holocaust to an extent and killed a mass number of people. Look up what many historians consider one of the biggest genocides in the world. A genocide doesn't have to be a specific religion but it can be a group of people too. I've taken Genocide, Modern Global Issues Honors, and AP US, and we've ran into many dilemma and different opinions on these certain issues.

Isrel, y u hek?

[quote=MrLidor]@Snovvy
Its not only kids throwing rocks, even though that is dangerous too, few months ago a father and his baby got killed by huge rocks thrown on their car. The Palestinians continuously send rockets on Israel, forcing more then 1million Israelis to live in fear and hide in shelters all day. From 2000-2008 more then 10 thousand rockets have landed in Israel. Palestinian suicide bombers killed hundreds of jews, blowing up buses and public places full of innocent people. They murdered a family with 3 children and a baby while they were sleeping. Everyday Israel stops terrorist attacks which were supposed to kill alot of Jews. How do you expect Israel to react to a society where children are taught to blow themselves up to kill innocent civilians and where someone who killed hundreds of jews is considered a hero? think about it, what would any other country do? They would react much harder then Israel.[/quote]

1- grenades arnt rocks
2- to be more specific, around three thousand were shot to us six years ago during the second war against lebannon, to us those who remember.
3- earlier you wrote that there is no palestinien nation, which is true btw, I want to tell you guys something that probably most of you didnt know. The palestiniens arnt realy who they attend to be, they should be called 'filastinias' which is a complete different thing. The palestinien state isnt in the size of whole Israel. It includes only Gaza and ashqelon, and parts of sinay. The palestiniens were 2000 years ago, to the Israelis like lidor, you might know them better as 'plishtim' instead. They were one of the Jewish nations' biggest enemies over the years, and they take part many times in the book of all books, the bible

@Rezoina: Idiot American? That was completely unnecessary. Do you understand how war works in the modern world? The days when 3 million men launch massive invasions into other countries are long over. Imagine a D-day in a modern context. The boats will be smashed by the air force within minutes. War between powers in this world (note, not against insurgents) involves using air and missile power to destroy strategic points with minimum civilian casualties. Environment does mean a "crapload" but using artillery and long range missiles will not ruin the environment. By your logic the all armies should completely decommission tanks and aircraft on the basis they use too much fuel.

You also have to keep in mind the concept of power projection. North Korea is a regional player only, and a small one at that. Can you imagine North Korean staging a military operation in Africa? Or the Middle East? The very idea is absurd. North Korea is militarily limited to operations in the Korean peninsula. And there their opposition is South Korea (which btw, is one of the only first world nations that have conscriptions) and the United States of America. I mean seriously? Which side would you bet on there?

You vastly overestimate the North Korean army. They are decades behind the United States in military technology. They can be as brainwashed all they want. Heck even if the North Koreans were superhuman they would lose. Technology>Humans in this day and age.

Oh and if by "China might have not treated their citizens right with the genocide of its own of 30 million in the 1960's" you are referring to the Cultural Revolution than you are sadly misinformed on what a genocide is.

Oh and just an fyi North Korean spends around ~10 billion per year on the military. America spends ~700 billion. South Korea ~30 billion
And do not underestimate the South. Both Koreas have been in a constant state of war (technically) since the 1950s. Both are fully prepared for war. Do you really think that South Korea, being a first world country with huge recourses to draw from, has been idly sitting in the shadow of the North? No such thing. South Korean males are all reacquired 2 years of military service. The population of the South is nearly double that of the North. South Korea's military reserves are actually LARGER than that of North Koreas. They don't have the brainwashing, but they have superior technology. Much superior technology.

@tjhermit: Do you know much about North Korea in general? Kkotjebis? Mongolian-South Eastern Asian-China defectents policy? What about the conditions of their concentration camps vs. the ones in the Holocaust?

You're again underestimating the power of what people can do in general. They are the closest thing to falling because of the thousands that defect and importation of illegal Asian entities, such as CDs and clothing. Right now the leash on North Korea might be dwindling from China, but they still have a hold on for them not to do stupid things like invading.

And you're not getting the mere concept of how North Korea has brainwashed their army. Not in any army of the world has ever brainwashed more than this many people than North Korea. They essentially take their humanity away and turn them into humans built upon survival only, because of how the regime uses food to control them. What a person will do for food will surprise you. In several psychological papers and studies and many instances, a person will eat another person before they starve to death.

Your brainwashing and manipulating comment makes an irrelevant argument for your sake. No other enemy has successfully manipulated an enemy force directly like in what you're trying to prove per say, because I'm pretty sure if a stranger tried to force upon what you believe is all wrong, you're not gonna take it the right way, just like this argument right? In wartime, there isn't enough time to give proofs like this and convince the enemy that what they are fighting for is wrong.

Now because I said this won't work for the sake of you is that, as I said earlier the citizens are the closest thing to falling. If they fall, they can make or break the army. This is different than killing your average enemy because many of those soldier's opinions will be divided between their families and an army because its not a stranger telling them whats wrong, but their own blood. If one by one falls, the psychology of what many soldiers have for their mates (the pact system, where they think they are basically brothers because of what they went through, and this pact is truly evident in all armies like ours in the Iraq war) will further trigger a domino like effect throughout the army, thus causing a revolt with weapons involved. Many times in history we see this, such as the conception of the Soviets and Egypt. Yes in a way that weapons is needed, but it first takes guidance, in this case the citizens, to direct where those weapons should truly point to.

And if this doesn't work and some how we get another iteration of the Tianamen Square Massacre of 1989 in China, then it would be probably UN's final strike because of NK's troubled past with Human Rights Violations. China might have not treated their citizens right with the genocide of its own of 30 million in the 1960's, but they have not misused rations nor have they illegally distribute their arm weapons to terrorist groups like Al Khaida and the Taliban.

@Im2Noob: Please don't be the idiotic American who say "har har let's just bomb ze dumb weak country" because in [b]this day and age[/b] the environment means a crap load, especially if one of the most ruthless agencies in this country is the EPA. We did use missiles and bombs in the Middle East, but that's because there is nothing worth while in a land already distraught. NK has many refineries, mineral deposits, ecosystems, and lumber that NK hasn't yet spoiled.

[quote=Rezoina]@tjhermit: Pff do you know much about the relations of North Korea and China much? China supports North Korea due to having the same type of government, and stemming from the relations contract of the Kim and communist regime. It has nothing to do with borders, in fact that might be even worsening their relations because of how much the Chinese have to spend on trying to deport the 200,000 North Koreans that flock their illegally!

Trust me, I'm waiting for the day that regime collapses, but you're under estimating them too much. Being poorly trained is something we don't know, but I'll tell you one thing, having a brainwashed army is a lot more powerful than you would think, because you can get them to do anything. Their government basically treats them like a dog!

And it won't fall because of the detrimental relations it has with the world, but when the citizens can snap out of the brainwashing that the regime imposes on their people to make their leader to look out to be some sort of God.[/quote]

I'll remind you in this day and age missile attacks combined with bombings can effectively wipe out the whole of North Korea in a matter of days. Oh and North Korea was created as a Chinese buffer zone, and will probably always remain a Chinese buffer zone.

[quote=Rezoina]@tjhermit: Pff do you know much about the relations of North Korea and China much? China supports North Korea due to having the same type of government, and stemming from the relations contract of the Kim and communist regime. It has nothing to do with borders, in fact that might be even worsening their relations because of how much the Chinese have to spend on trying to deport the 200,000 North Koreans that flock their illegally!

Trust me, I'm waiting for the day that regime collapses, but you're under estimating them too much. Being poorly trained is something we don't know, but I'll tell you one thing, having a brainwashed army is a lot more powerful than you would think, because you can get them to do anything. Their government basically treats them like a dog!

And it won't fall because of the detrimental relations it has with the world, but when the citizens can snap out of the brainwashing that the regime imposes on their people to make their leader to look out to be some sort of God.[/quote]

Remember the Korean war and how MacArthur tried to cross the border to challenge China? That was the problem i was talking about. China cares not about what government North Korea has, it cares about its national security. North Korean spies are everywhere, not just in South Korea.

Also, the people cannot rise up because of the lack of weapon and the amount of "faith" in their leader.
The only way North Korea would fall is it is foolish enough to invade another country, causing retaliation against it. Currently, almost no countries actually support N.Korea. There are only a hand full of Communist countries in the world, and half of them have their own issues to deal with. That way, it would almost mirror when the 8 allies countries invaded China in the early 1900s.

Yes Brainwashed people are dangerous but, it proves that they can be easily manipulated.

@tjhermit: Pff do you know much about the relations of North Korea and China much? China supports North Korea due to having the same type of government, and stemming from the relations contract of the Kim and communist regime. It has nothing to do with borders, in fact that might be even worsening their relations because of how much the Chinese have to spend on trying to deport the 200,000 North Koreans that flock their illegally!

Trust me, I'm waiting for the day that regime collapses, but you're under estimating them too much. Being poorly trained is something we don't know, but I'll tell you one thing, having a brainwashed army is a lot more powerful than you would think, because you can get them to do anything. Their government basically treats them like a dog!

And it won't fall because of the detrimental relations it has with the world, but when the citizens can snap out of the brainwashing that the regime imposes on their people to make their leader to look out to be some sort of God.

[quote=Rezoina]@tjhermit: True, but even if a nation is dependent upon foreign aid, it doesn't mean its not not powerful. Plus if you've been following any of their relations, China and North Korea's aid has dwindled upon these years. The North Korean army is 1 million strong right now, and if they wanted to they can deploy more than 7 million to attack South Korea.[/quote]

North Korea's government will eventually collapse if it attacks another nation, especially South Korea.
Because it will be no longer be able to support iself once all nations of the world, including China, turn against it (not saying there are much countries supporting it in the first place. The only reason why China supports North Korea is because it is like a free boarder patrol).

Those people in the military are poorly trained, like China was 50 years ago.

@tjhermit: True, but even if a nation is dependent upon foreign aid, it doesn't mean its not not powerful. Plus if you've been following any of their relations, China and North Korea's aid has dwindled upon these years. The North Korean army is 1 million strong right now, and if they wanted to they can deploy more than 7 million to attack South Korea.

[quote=SleepyHobo]Monetary compensation.[/quote]

Honestly I don't think giving them a failing currency will help much either.

I don't think money can give them back their old land.

[quote=tjhermit]@SleepyHobos: Yes, but giving maybe a group of 1000+ back a land full of waste and failed architecture isn't fair for the natives either.

@Rezoina: You are putting up a Nation that is building a military vs a Nation that depends on Foreign Aids.
North Korea could do nothing without China.[/quote]

Monetary compensation.

@SleepyHobos: Yes, but giving maybe a group of 1000+ back a land full of waste and failed architecture isn't fair for the natives either.

@Rezoina: You are putting up a Nation that is building a military vs a Nation that depends on Foreign Aids. Just because they have a large force, does that make them a strong military.
North Korea could do nothing without China.

@tjhermit: If North Korea planned to invade the South it would be all done under 30 minutes, that's how much money they spend on their army. It's built off of giving free food away, where in that nation, they will do anything for food. Look up how powerful that army is and tell me I'm not wrong...

[quote=tjhermit]By all means, they should. But too bad majority of those Natives died because of all the viruses and diseases that were brought here. Who can they give the land back to now?[/quote]

There's still some alive and there are living relatives of those Native Americans.

[quote=SleepyHobo]If the US wants to give the Jews Isreal than they need to give back land to the Native Americans. Hypocrisy at it's best.[/quote]

By all means, they should. But too bad majority of those Natives died because of all the viruses and diseases that were brought here. Who can they give the land back to now?

>Israel the good guy
>Israel pretty much has the Palestine in ghettos
>Israel cutting supplies for the Palestine
>Israel wants to bomb Iran because we're placing sanctions on them instead of invading them

I'm calling it now:
Someone's going to say, "BWAAAH, YOU'RE ANTISEMITIC BECAUSE THE HOLOCAUST WAS BAD AND THEY'RE THE VICTIMS ALL THE TIME"

If the US wants to give the Jews Isreal than they need to give back land to the Native Americans. Hypocrisy at it's best.

[quote=Rezoina]Look up who's got the most powerful military, right behind North Korea's brainwashed army.

@MrLidor Okay there might have not been a diplomatic nation, but there were a majority of Arabs that lived there since the Middle Ages, and since have held that majority, until the great influx of Jewish immigrants. What the UN did was hypocritical and contradictory to their existence to some extent because they were trying to avoid imperialistic ideals, but instead used those ideals to create a split nation.[/quote]

North Koreans are not powerful at all. In fact I wonder why people even call North Korea a threat. It is a joke.

Now Nigerians on the other hand, might be.

@uiluj4: I like this point. Touche.

@uiluj4: That you just pointed out my point, which there was no need for.

@uiluj4: ... That was my point.

[quote=tjhermit]Israel is more powerful. It was the land of the Jews, it should stay that way.[/quote]
Look up who's got the most powerful military, right behind North Korea's brainwashed army.

@MrLidor Okay there might have not been a diplomatic nation, but there were a majority of Arabs that lived there since the Middle Ages, and since have held that majority, until the great influx of Jewish immigrants. What the UN did was hypocritical and contradictory to their existence to some extent because they were trying to avoid imperialistic ideals, but instead used those ideals to create a split nation.

Israel is more powerful. It was the land of the Jews, it should stay that way.

It's an insignificant portion of a former Ottoman province that became a major issue only because Zionists, working with imperialist European countries, dreamed of reestablishing the Davidic kingdom.

It was totally unlawful for the US to situate Israelis into an already "claimed land." The US/UN should have set an immigration-collaboration program with the residents already in there, (most likely Palestinians because look at how many Arab nations are surrounded) instead of being hypocrites (just like what Nazi-Germany did in WW2) and taking a land already migrated in.

But it's also Palestine's fault for the situation getting spread throughout the Middle East, rather solving it themselves. This is causing an uneven equilibrium through OPEC and Middle East-World relations, which is rotting some nations, like Syria and Iran/q.

This conflicts been on every single agenda of the Presidents since Truman of the late 1940's. I would like to see an end to this conflict, but since the 1970's [b]we've[/b] been more of [b]Israel's second nation[/b] rather than the vice-versa.

[quote=uiluj4]So after WW2, the Jews were scared of persecution again, so they wanted their own sovereign state. So they got Israel for free. The problem is that Palestinians were already living there. Then a bunch of violence occurred.

Now the UN is attempting the two state solution. The two state solution is dividing up the land for Jews and Palestinians to live separately: Jews in Israel and Palestinians in West Bank, Gaza Strip and Golan Heights. It's not working because Jews keep on establishing Jewish settlements on Palestinian land. Palestinians are mad so they commit acts of civil disobedience or even terrorism. In response, the Israeli government kill a lot of Palestinians.[/quote]

Well, even if the Jews stayed in their designated land, wouldn't the violence still continue as Palestinians want their former land back? ._.

[quote=UglierBetty]Oh it's [i]this[/i] video again.[/quote]

Someone posted it on the chat forums, and I thought it was interesting :<

Oh it's [i]this[/i] video again.