General

This is rather informative for those who think a loving God burning people in hell is logical: [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkRxGAhVqmc]A Tale about Hell[/url]

Religon on basil = flame war = basil's version of world war

don't quote me on this.

[quote=redpitbull01]
[url=http://library.thinkquest.org/28327/main/universe/solar_system/planets/earth/interior/layers_of_earth.html]This is where I got that from[/url]

Please calm down. I'm not sure why you are getting so worked up about this.
Maybe this isn't a good discussion for your mental health.[/quote]

Let's settle this once and for all, peer reviewed article from the PNAS (Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences), one of the top scientific journals in the world, alongside Nature and Science. The layers can be defined as follows:

Lithosphere, Asthenosphere, Mesosphere, Outer, Inner (Total 5)
Crust, Upper mantle, Lower mantle, Outer, Inner (Total 5)
Bullen regions: A, B ,C, D', D", E, F, G (Total 8)

None of those are 7.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC411539/pdf/pnas00009-0040.pdf

[quote=redpitbull01]1. Nor is wikipedia. hopefully now you will stop citing it.

2. please provide the verse[/quote]

I already did in my previous post... Also I don't think you know how Wikipedia works, it cites academic sources, it's a 2nd party academic source which is a thousand times more academic than the BS pro-muslim sites you cite.

[quote=Wanton]stairway to heaven was a good drama.[/quote]

same lol exactly what i thought when i saw the title lol

[quote=TrueAtheist]@redpitbull01

1. That is not an academic source.

2. The quran says you can fold the sun therefore it's wrong, thus your claim that your book is 100% in agreement with science and is infallible is also wrong.

I rest my case.[/quote]

1. Nor is wikipedia. hopefully now you will stop citing it.

2. please provide the verse

@redpitbull01

1. That is not an academic source.

2. The quran says you can fold the sun therefore it's wrong, thus your claim that your book is 100% in agreement with science and is infallible is also wrong.

I rest my case.

[quote=crazybass]Modern science explains things in great detail and have reasoned arguments for how they arrived at the specifics. How can you claim single sentences in the Quran as being as detailed and concise as scientific documents which often take books to explain? It doesn't matter that there are people who can translate ambiguous statements which are found in an old book. Anyone can look at a Dr Suess book and do the same.

Edit: To answer the question, yes you will go to hell for not knowing about god. Because I have read the first few pages of the Bible and interpreted it from those pages and therefore it is true.

Not saying you can't have your own beliefs. But don't try to claim something that clearly isn't true is true, and basically call someone an idiot because they don't follow your warped sense of truth.

PS I haven't went to church for 12 years and I'm happier than I ever was. Maybe I will go to hell for that statement But what the "hell"? You only live once.[/quote]

I'm talking about the Quran.
The bible as I have said before has been corrupted (edited) by man.
No one can say you will go to hell or heaven. That decision is up to Allah (SWT).
I thought you didn't like when people twisted your words?
I never called you an idiot. Sorry if that's how it came across.
Salaam. It seems like you have decided to stick with your ideology.

[quote=WiziLiCe]@redpitbull01: Its called conjectures. I laugh at you for basing your whole belief in such vague arguments.[/quote]

They say laughing is healthy for you.

[quote=TrueAtheist]Where the heck in that verse I showed you do you see the Quran talking about Earth's layers? Where did you get this from? I don't see anything there about layers of the Earth it's clearly talking about planets "Earth-like bodies."

And let's for a moment say you are right and it is in fact talking about the layers of the Earth, depending on how you define a layer of the Earth there is anywhere from 3 to 8. There is no absolute "7 layers" of the Earth. In fact your description of 7 layers isn't even accurate because the D layer is actually 2 layers which you are combining into one in order to conform to what your book says. In the 1950's it was discovered that the D layer is actually 2 layers.

Source: Audrey Slesinger (January 2001), "Earth's interior: Redefining the Core-Mantle Boundary", Geotimes (The American Geological Institute), retrieved 2011-03-24

Also I like how you tell us not to use Anti-Islamic sites but you're allowed to use Pro-Islamic sites, you are not quoting academic sources, Wikipedia is more of an academic source than the BS website you're getting your information from that does nothing but skew in their favor vague and arbitrary verses in a vein attempt to conform to science which it fails to do. Dimo already showed you a journal proving Wikipedia is as credible as Britannica Encyclopedia.

If you're going to get information from pro-islamic websites at least use academic sources.

EDIT: And as if the flaws we've pointed out aren't enough here's another one.. Quran 81:1 states that the Sun can be folded up. This suggests that the Sun is a flat disc that can be folded which it isn't, it's a complex gaseous ball of plasma that can not be folded. Guess Allah didn't know that either.[/quote]

[url=http://library.thinkquest.org/28327/main/universe/solar_system/planets/earth/interior/layers_of_earth.html]This is where I got that from[/url]

Please calm down. I'm not sure why you are getting so worked up about this.
Maybe this isn't a good discussion for your mental health.

[quote=BoredAF]No, you only assume that that is a Christian point of view. When in fact no one who truly loves Jesus, would believe such nonsense. I think you've researched too much about God and haven't experienced him yourself.

If you had said, 'I think that this may be a Christian point of view' then alright, no argument there. But to claim that it is, without a Christian actually saying it...is nothing more than an assumption. Again, no one who truly Loves Jesus would say something so silly. So I have to ask, who did you hear this point of view from?[/quote]

Why do you think you have enough credibility to say this? You aren't some special person who knows exactly what God wants, and you don't know the exactly correct interpretations of the Bible. What is this.

stairway to heaven was a good drama.

[quote=redpitbull01]Allah, it is He Who has made for you the earth as a dwelling place and the sky as a canopy, and has given you shape and made your shapes good (looking) and has provided you with good things. That is Allah, your Lord, so Blessed is Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinn and all that exists). (40:64) - Dr. Mohsin

That is chapter 40, verse 64. It says nothing of that sort. You're information is false my friend.
Here are more translations from legitimate translators and not some anti-Islamic site:

It is Allah Who has made for you the earth as a resting place, and the sky as a canopy, and has given you shapes, and made your shape beautiful and has provided for you Sustenance, Of things pure and good such is Allah your Lord. So Glory to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds! (64) - Yusuf Ali

Allah it is Who appointed for you the earth for a dwelling-place and the sky for a canopy, and fashioned you and perfected your shapes, and hath provided you with good things. Such is Allah, your Lord. Then blessed be Allah, the Lord of the Worlds! (64) - Pickthal

I suggest you actually read the Quran.
It is Allah Who has created seven heavens and of the earth the like thereof. His Command descends between them (heavens and earth), that you may know that Allah has power over all things, and that Allah surrounds all things in (His) Knowledge. (65:12)

Verily, only Allah (SWT) knows the true meanings of every verse of the Quran but that verse does not say that Allah (SWT) only created 7 planets.
There are billions of planets yes, but scientists have yet to find one's that are like earth (Support life).
They have found some planets that may/may not be similar to earth but it's impossible to determine it's composition, exact distance from the sun etc.
They only get ball park figures.

As for an explanation of the verse, it's talking about the 7 layers of the earth.
0- 40 Crust
40- 400 Upper mantle
400- 650 Transition region
650-2700 Lower mantle
2700-2890 D'' layer
2890-5150 Outer core
5150-6378 Inner core

feel free to bring me more "arguments" to the Quran. Many people before you have tried and failed.

Once again, I recommend reading the actual Quran with an open mind and not going to anti-Islamic websites or using *cough-laugh-cough* wikipedia as a source.

Could anyone in 7th century Arabia have known that our atmosphere is made up of seven layers?

Could anyone in 7th century Arabia have known in detail the various stages of development from which an embryo grows into a baby and then enters the world from inside his mother?

Could anyone in 7th century Arabia have known that the universe is "steadily expanding," as the Qur'an puts it, when modern scientists have only in recent decades put forward the idea of the "Big Bang"?

Could anyone in 7th century Arabia have known about the fact that each individual's fingertips are absolutely unique, when we have only discovered this fact recently, using modern technology and modern scientific equipment?

Please go to [url=http://www.quranandscience.com/index.php/quran-science]Quran and Science[/url] for more information.[/quote]

Where the heck in that verse I showed you do you see the Quran talking about Earth's layers? Where did you get this from? I don't see anything there about layers of the Earth it's clearly talking about planets "Earth-like bodies."

And let's for a moment say you are right and it is in fact talking about the layers of the Earth, depending on how you define a layer of the Earth there is anywhere from 3 to 8. There is no absolute "7 layers" of the Earth. In fact your description of 7 layers isn't even accurate because the D layer is actually 2 layers which you are combining into one in order to conform to what your book says. In the 1950's it was discovered that the D layer is actually 2 layers.

Source: Audrey Slesinger (January 2001), "Earth's interior: Redefining the Core-Mantle Boundary", Geotimes (The American Geological Institute), retrieved 2011-03-24

Also I like how you tell us not to use Anti-Islamic sites but you're allowed to use Pro-Islamic sites, you are not quoting academic sources, Wikipedia is more of an academic source than the BS website you're getting your information from that does nothing but skew in their favor vague and arbitrary verses in a vein attempt to conform to science which it fails to do. Dimo already showed you a journal proving Wikipedia is as credible as Britannica Encyclopedia.

If you're going to get information from pro-islamic websites at least use academic sources.

EDIT: And as if the flaws we've pointed out aren't enough here's another one.. Quran 81:1 states that the Sun can be folded up. This suggests that the Sun is a flat disc that can be folded which it isn't, it's a complex gaseous ball of plasma that can not be folded. Guess Allah didn't know that either.

@redpitbull01: Its called conjectures. I laugh at you for basing your whole belief in such vague arguments.

[quote=redpitbull01]Allah, it is He Who has made for you the earth as a dwelling place and the sky as a canopy, and has given you shape and made your shapes good (looking) and has provided you with good things. That is Allah, your Lord, so Blessed is Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinn and all that exists). (40:64) - Dr. Mohsin

That is chapter 40, verse 64. It says nothing of that sort. You're information is false my friend.
Here are more translations from legitimate translators and not some anti-Islamic site:

It is Allah Who has made for you the earth as a resting place, and the sky as a canopy, and has given you shapes, and made your shape beautiful and has provided for you Sustenance, Of things pure and good such is Allah your Lord. So Glory to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds! (64) - Yusuf Ali

Allah it is Who appointed for you the earth for a dwelling-place and the sky for a canopy, and fashioned you and perfected your shapes, and hath provided you with good things. Such is Allah, your Lord. Then blessed be Allah, the Lord of the Worlds! (64) - Pickthal

I suggest you actually read the Quran.
It is Allah Who has created seven heavens and of the earth the like thereof. His Command descends between them (heavens and earth), that you may know that Allah has power over all things, and that Allah surrounds all things in (His) Knowledge. (65:12)

Verily, only Allah (SWT) knows the true meanings of every verse of the Quran but that verse does not say that Allah (SWT) only created 7 planets.
There are billions of planets yes, but scientists have yet to find one's that are like earth (Support life).
They have found some planets that may/may not be similar to earth but it's impossible to determine it's composition, exact distance from the sun etc.
They only get ball park figures.

As for an explanation of the verse, it's talking about the 7 layers of the earth.
0- 40 Crust
40- 400 Upper mantle
400- 650 Transition region
650-2700 Lower mantle
2700-2890 D'' layer
2890-5150 Outer core
5150-6378 Inner core

feel free to bring me more "arguments" to the Quran. Many people before you have tried and failed.

Once again, I recommend reading the actual Quran with an open mind and not going to anti-Islamic websites or using *cough-laugh-cough* wikipedia as a source.

Could anyone in 7th century Arabia have known that our atmosphere is made up of seven layers?

Could anyone in 7th century Arabia have known in detail the various stages of development from which an embryo grows into a baby and then enters the world from inside his mother?

Could anyone in 7th century Arabia have known that the universe is "steadily expanding," as the Qur'an puts it, when modern scientists have only in recent decades put forward the idea of the "Big Bang"?

Could anyone in 7th century Arabia have known about the fact that each individual's fingertips are absolutely unique, when we have only discovered this fact recently, using modern technology and modern scientific equipment?

Please go to [url=http://www.quranandscience.com/index.php/quran-science]Quran and Science[/url] for more information.[/quote]

Modern science explains things in great detail and have reasoned arguments for how they arrived at the specifics. How can you claim single sentences in the Quran as being as detailed and concise as scientific documents which often take books to explain? It doesn't matter that there are people who can translate ambiguous statements which are found in an old book. Anyone can look at a Dr Suess book and do the same.

Edit: To answer the question, yes you will go to hell for not knowing about god. Because I have read the first few pages of the Bible and interpreted it from those pages and therefore it is true.

Not saying you can't have your own beliefs. But don't try to claim something that clearly isn't true is true, and basically call someone an idiot because they don't follow your warped sense of truth.

PS I haven't went to church for 12 years and I'm happier than I ever was. Maybe I will go to hell for that statement But what the "hell"? You only live once.

[quote=redpitbull01]
Could anyone in 7th century Arabia have known that the universe is "steadily expanding," as the Qur'an puts it, when modern scientists have only in recent decades put forward the idea of the "Big Bang"?.[/quote]

Going to comment on the rest when I get home and off my phone, but I know for a fact that the universe is not "steadily expanding", the expansion speed is increasing, in fact they won the Nobel Prize in physics for it in either 2010 or 2011.

[quote=dimo]Firstly wikipedia has been shown to be on par with Encyclopedia Britannica (source: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v438/n7070/full/438900a.html). You can't source it because it is not peer-reviewed, but many of it's pages site sources that are peer-reviewed.

Secondly, Qur'an 40:64 states that the earth is fixed.[/quote]

Allah, it is He Who has made for you the earth as a dwelling place and the sky as a canopy, and has given you shape and made your shapes good (looking) and has provided you with good things. That is Allah, your Lord, so Blessed is Allah, the Lord of the 'Alamin (mankind, jinn and all that exists). (40:64) - Dr. Mohsin

That is chapter 40, verse 64. It says nothing of that sort. You're information is false my friend.
Here are more translations from legitimate translators and not some anti-Islamic site:

It is Allah Who has made for you the earth as a resting place, and the sky as a canopy, and has given you shapes, and made your shape beautiful and has provided for you Sustenance, Of things pure and good such is Allah your Lord. So Glory to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds! (64) - Yusuf Ali

Allah it is Who appointed for you the earth for a dwelling-place and the sky for a canopy, and fashioned you and perfected your shapes, and hath provided you with good things. Such is Allah, your Lord. Then blessed be Allah, the Lord of the Worlds! (64) - Pickthal

I suggest you actually read the Quran.

[quote=TrueAtheist]Quran 65:12 states that Allah created only 7 planets, or 7 earth-like planets.

" Allah is He Who created seven Firmaments and of the earth a similar number. Through the midst of them(all) descends His Command "

There are more than 7 planets, and more than 7 earth-like planets.

Science now knows there are billions of earth-like planets.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/05/tech/innovation/billions-of-planets/

There you go, there's a mistake in your Quran. Now you're going to say "you're interpreting it wrong" lmfao, so you're allowed to interpret the quran to abide by science but I'm not allowed to point out the logical flaws and incoherence with science? Wow man, you're being controlled by that book.

Oh and apparently you don't know how to use the internet, Wikipedia cites every single one of their sources, the quran verses were right there for you to click on, so please go through the hundreds of mistakes in the Quran and justify all of them for me thanks.[/quote]

It is Allah Who has created seven heavens and of the earth the like thereof. His Command descends between them (heavens and earth), that you may know that Allah has power over all things, and that Allah surrounds all things in (His) Knowledge. (65:12)

Verily, only Allah (SWT) knows the true meanings of every verse of the Quran but that verse does not say that Allah (SWT) only created 7 planets.
There are billions of planets yes, but scientists have yet to find one's that are like earth (Support life).
They have found some planets that may/may not be similar to earth but it's impossible to determine it's composition, exact distance from the sun etc.
They only get ball park figures.

As for an explanation of the verse, it's talking about the 7 layers of the earth.
0- 40 Crust
40- 400 Upper mantle
400- 650 Transition region
650-2700 Lower mantle
2700-2890 D'' layer
2890-5150 Outer core
5150-6378 Inner core

feel free to bring me more "arguments" to the Quran. Many people before you have tried and failed.

Once again, I recommend reading the actual Quran with an open mind and not going to anti-Islamic websites or using *cough-laugh-cough* wikipedia as a source.

[quote=WiziLiCe]I'm saying the Quran is bs and you haven't said anything to prove the opposite.[/quote]

Could anyone in 7th century Arabia have known that our atmosphere is made up of seven layers?

Could anyone in 7th century Arabia have known in detail the various stages of development from which an embryo grows into a baby and then enters the world from inside his mother?

Could anyone in 7th century Arabia have known that the universe is "steadily expanding," as the Qur'an puts it, when modern scientists have only in recent decades put forward the idea of the "Big Bang"?

Could anyone in 7th century Arabia have known about the fact that each individual's fingertips are absolutely unique, when we have only discovered this fact recently, using modern technology and modern scientific equipment?

Please go to [url=http://www.quranandscience.com/index.php/quran-science]Quran and Science[/url] for more information.

[quote=redpitbull01]Basically what you are saying is we can't really prove anything is real because it could just be in our imagination. Pretty basic philosophy, right out of high school. It's cool to have questions, but questions without answers don't accomplish much.
You don't need to worry though because I'm just a part of your imagination. You're actually just floating in nothingness trapped in your own mind. [/quote]

I'm saying the Quran is bs and you haven't said anything to prove the opposite.

[quote=redpitbull01]
Boy, oh boy. Using wikipedia has always been the most credible source. This is exactly why every credible university accepts it as a source. It certainly has made writing essays, lab reports and such, much much easier for me.
Now that I am done with sarcasm, on to disproving your point.
Let's look at it's first argument;
"The Qur'an mentions numerous times that the sun and the moon travel in an orbit, but does not mention once that the earth does too."
[/quote]

Firstly wikipedia has been shown to be on par with Encyclopedia Britannica (source: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v438/n7070/full/438900a.html). You can't source it because it is not peer-reviewed, but many of it's pages site sources that are peer-reviewed.

Secondly, Qur'an 40:64 states that the earth is fixed.

[quote=redpitbull01]Basically what you are saying is we can't really prove anything is real because it could just be in our imagination. Pretty basic philosophy, right out of high school. It's cool to have questions, but questions without answers don't accomplish much.
You don't need to worry though because I'm just a part of your imagination. You're actually just floating in nothingness trapped in your own mind.

So basically everything was illogical at some point? lol
I never said to understand God completely, to do so is to be able to infinity; my point was that there is a God and proof of Him is the Quran and that the Quran is not illogical, but rather the opposite.
Feel free to try and find the illogicality in the Quran.

Please find the verse that states that the moon orbits the sun. You can't. It's not there.

Boy, oh boy. Using wikipedia has always been the most credible source. This is exactly why every credible university accepts it as a source. It certainly has made writing essays, lab reports and such, much much easier for me.
Now that I am done with sarcasm, on to disproving your point.
Let's look at it's first argument;
"The Qur'an mentions numerous times that the sun and the moon travel in an orbit, but does not mention once that the earth does too."
That's like you saying : "I didn't cheat on my math test" and me saying "You never mentioned not cheating on all your others tests! Hahahaha, you get an 'F' ".
Essentially what is happening is assumptions are being made and words are being put in mouths.

To say the Quran has no contradictions is to say that it does not contradict what we know to be true to this present day. We once thought the world was flat until we learned better. We once thought there were tons of forces in the universe, then it was brought down to 4, and then 2, and now they are trying to see if there is just 1.
Instead of using wikipedia that is hardly credible and can be edited by anyone, and that also puts words into the "mouth" of the Quran (or God as He wrote it), try finding contradictions in the [b]verses[/b]. Oh, and verses taken out of context do not count of course (logically speaking). Quran-1, contradictions-0.

I challenge anyone to find something credible against the Quran.[/quote]

Quran 65:12 states that Allah created only 7 planets, or 7 earth-like planets.

" Allah is He Who created seven Firmaments and of the earth a similar number. Through the midst of them(all) descends His Command "

There are more than 7 planets, and more than 7 earth-like planets.

Science now knows there are billions of earth-like planets.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/05/tech/innovation/billions-of-planets/

There you go, there's a mistake in your Quran. Now you're going to say "you're interpreting it wrong" lmfao, so you're allowed to interpret the quran to abide by science but I'm not allowed to point out the logical flaws and incoherence with science? Wow man, you're being controlled by that book.

Oh and apparently you don't know how to use the internet, Wikipedia cites every single one of their sources, the quran verses were right there for you to click on, so please go through the hundreds of mistakes in the Quran and justify all of them for me thanks.

[quote=WiziLiCe]Actually, even if you say you explore it you can't say that it really is there. At most its just part of your mind imagining everything you say you explore. So no, exploring it doesn't mean it its actually real.

As for the "Quran all mighty revelations and miracles", it wouldn't refute my initial argument that you can't know for sure what you experience is what really is there.[/quote]

Basically what you are saying is we can't really prove anything is real because it could just be in our imagination. Pretty basic philosophy, right out of high school. It's cool to have questions, but questions without answers don't accomplish much.
You don't need to worry though because I'm just a part of your imagination. You're actually just floating in nothingness trapped in your own mind.

[quote=Skyenets]@redpitbull01:

Now here's the problem with this conversation. You're misunderstanding what I am saying and responding accordingly. I never sad that your religion is illogical. I never said any religion is illogical at that. [b]I said that there's aspects of religion that cannot be comprehended by humankind and are therefore deemed illogical[/b]. That's what happens when we don't understand something or something makes no sense. Are you telling me you completely comprehend your God? Because to me that simply sounds arrogant.[/quote]

So basically everything was illogical at some point? lol
I never said to understand God completely, to do so is to be able to infinity; my point was that there is a God and proof of Him is the Quran and that the Quran is not illogical, but rather the opposite.
Feel free to try and find the illogicality in the Quran.

[quote=TrueAtheist]@redpitbull01

There are hundreds of scientific errors in the Quran.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific_Errors_in_the_Qur%27an

Feel free to go through them yourself and see how wrong your book is.

According to the Quran the moon orbits the Sun, so um yeah, you're wrong it's not infallible there's quite a few holes in it.[/quote]

Please find the verse that states that the moon orbits the sun. You can't. It's not there.

Boy, oh boy. Using wikipedia has always been the most credible source. This is exactly why every credible university accepts it as a source. It certainly has made writing essays, lab reports and such, much much easier for me.
Now that I am done with sarcasm, on to disproving your point.
Let's look at it's first argument;
"The Qur'an mentions numerous times that the sun and the moon travel in an orbit, but does not mention once that the earth does too."
That's like you saying : "I didn't cheat on my math test" and me saying "You never mentioned not cheating on all your others tests! Hahahaha, you get an 'F' ".
Essentially what is happening is assumptions are being made and words are being put in mouths.

To say the Quran has no contradictions is to say that it does not contradict what we know to be true to this present day. We once thought the world was flat until we learned better. We once thought there were tons of forces in the universe, then it was brought down to 4, and then 2, and now they are trying to see if there is just 1.
Instead of using wikipedia that is hardly credible and can be edited by anyone, and that also puts words into the "mouth" of the Quran (or God as He wrote it), try finding contradictions in the [b]verses[/b]. Oh, and verses taken out of context do not count of course (logically speaking). Quran-1, contradictions-0.

I challenge anyone to find something credible against the Quran.

[quote=Sunlight]Oh wow a long fight between two basilers, I haven't seen one of these since the older days

OT: Thank you for giving me the urge to listen to Stairway to Heaven OP[/quote]

lol I youtubed that song as soon as I saw this thread

i only care for led zeppelin

WontPostMuch with the jab, BoredAF with the left hook, WontPostMuch stumbles but recovers then lands an uppercut, BoredAF is dazed but counters with a leg kick. WontPostMuch with the take down, BoredAF reverses it and goes for an arm bar while WontPostMuch grabs BoredAF's leg and goes for a knee bar, both men pull with all their might.

Who will win? Stay tuned for round 2!

[quote=BoredAF]@WontPostMuch: Ask your buddy what the two trees are, if you want an answer to your first paragraph.

What are the teaching of Christ? Just so I'm clear. Ask him if he see's a hobo outside, is it God telling him to give that hobo 5 bucks or is it himself telling him to give the hobo 5 bucks because he thinks it's good and the right thing to do.[/quote]

You know, you have a curious way of not answering any point that is made or any of the questions asked. You seem to enjoy making grand declarations like "no Christian would ever believe that" or "only idiots think Jesus is there to guide them" without explaining why you have reached such conclusions. Both my friend and I are a complete and total loss at how this addresses the questions he had or what you're even trying to get at, so I'm just dropping this conversation since either you have no intention of it being productive or you are just incapable of holding a coherent conversation. Whichever it is, please don't bother responding again.

Only Gods live in Heaven, Zeus's domain. Mortals goes to the underworld, Hades' domain

[quote=BoredAF]@WontPostMuch: Maybe I'm wrong but what may I ask kind sir, does he guide people to do?[/quote]

Apparently when he said to take care of the poor and widowed, he wasn't guiding people to do anything. Nope, that wasn't guidance. So at this point, I have to say that since no Christian thinks that Jesus guides them to do good in their life, maybe Jesus guides people into doing cocaine and other regrettable decisions.

PS: My Christian friend is curious as to why you think Jesus doesn't guide anyone. He thinks it's obvious that as a Christian you follow the teachings of Christ. What he taught is what we mean when we say that Jesus guides people to do good. He wonders how you can think that he DOESN'T guide anyone in life. He also wants to know what you mean by a relationship with Jesus. If Jesus doesn't guide us in our daily life, then what, exactly, comprises this relationship? He's baffled at your views (srs)

[quote=BoredAF]

Only an idiot would think that Jesus is here to guide you in life. [/quote]

Verily I must profess then that I am an idiot of unthinkable magnitude. I have erred in thinking that Christ guided anyone and that the Gospels chronicle that guidance he gave to humanity. I must say that all these years I've been deceived and bow down to the superior intellect of [b]real[/b] Christians for only they properly understand whatever esoteric function Jesus Christ served. At least I know now not to embarrass myself by daring to suggest that Jesus offered guidance to people.

[quote=BoredAF]@WontPostMuch: No, you only assume that that is a Christian point of view. When in fact no one who truly loves Jesus, would believe such nonsense. I think you've researched too much about God and haven't experienced him yourself.

If you had said, 'I think that this may be a Christian point of view' then alright, no argument there. But to claim that it is, without a Christian actually saying it...is nothing more than an assumption. Again, no one who truly Loves Jesus would say something so silly. So I have to ask, who did you hear this point of view from?[/quote]

So a Christian would say that finding Jesus is imperative because it helps guide your life and develop spiritually is a silly idea only non-Christians who completely misunderstand the Bible would have? I think your argument here only works if you can decisively prove that I seriously misconstrued Christian ideas and interpretations to the point that they are extremely far removed from any "viable" interpretation of the Bible. I don't think I have and I'd like you to explain why if you think it is (ex: If I would have said that a lot of Christians believe that finding Jesus involves sacrificing lambs, you would have very good, solid evidence for claiming I completely misunderstood Christian doctrine and should be easy to expose with little effort on your part).

And as flimsy as my defense to your objection will be, I actually ran this through a Christian friend of mine and he said it was a viable argument and he personally considered it to be a very "Christian" answer. So there you go. At least one Christian thinks along these lines, again, giving me good reason to believe I have not massively misconstrued Christian thoughts or doctrine.

[quote=BoredAF]How would you know what a Christian perspective was, if you aren't a Christian?[/quote]

You're not a particularly deep thinker, are you? "How can you possibly understand a position you don't agree with?" or "How can you make an argument or propose a point of view without adhering to it?" I think you'd fit right along with people that like to argue against gay rights by asking "Why do you care so much about gay rights if you aren't a gay?"

[quote=BoredAF]What do you call yourself, besides confused?[/quote]

Well, apparently making a post explaining a Christian view of life now forces me to be one. I guess I'll have to go to church now and read the Bible everyday.

[quote=BoredAF] @WontPostMuch: I don't care about the argument you were making. Your argument has nothing to do with me.[/quote]

Why bother commenting on something you don't care about then? I took the time to write out a response to the question raised by the OP and I'd appreciate it if you'd only respond if you actually care to hear what someone has to say about a matter. Otherwise you're just wasting my time to be contrarian.

[quote=BoredAF]
You don't know what God's plan is and you call yourself a Christian. [/quote]

Really? I wasn't aware that I call myself a Christian. Care to tell me how you came to this conclusion which I myself was completely unaware of? I don't think many Christians would also make the claim that they know what God's plan is either. What I did say was that knowing about Jesus can lead to greater spiritual development and having an idea what God wants you to do in your life (what is referred to as God's plan in this sense).

[quote=BoredAF]
Besides you said this, 'Christians want to spread the word about Jesus so people will have an easier time dealing with their problems, have better guidance when they make choices'. What did you mean by it, if you didn't mean, to make our life easier?[/quote]

Obviously I didn't mean that it makes life "easier" in the sense that you're taking it. I meant that it would help guide someone trying to find the correct path in life and their quest for spiritual development would be made easier now that they know of the proper way to go about it. This is, of course, from a Christian perspective.

[quote=BoredAF]So the plan of God is what? To make our life easier?[/quote]

lol that's a pretty silly response to what I wrote. It's not the purpose of this thread--nor my response to it--to examine what God's plans for things are. That's another, highly complex theological question and it's not really pertinent to the argument I was making.

Well, I'll say this from a (one of the many) Christian perspective: no, you don't immediately go to hell just because you never heard of God and that's not how God's judgment works, at least if you study the Bible you'll see why this popular view of Christianity is a huge misconception. Now, as for why you would introduce someone to the idea of God and Jesus if it could wind up with them "going to hell," you need to understand that Christianity teaches that accepting Christ into your heart is the only way for salvation to occur and it is following the teachings of Christ that shed light into how we can lead a good, productive and spiritually healthy life.

With this in mind, Christians want to spread the word about Jesus so people will have an easier time dealing with their problems, have better guidance when they make choices and be able to know how to communicate with God and know what his plan for them is. That is, everyone benefits from hearing about the teachings of Christ and if they already had a predisposition for leading a good, healthy life, then knowing about Jesus Christ would help them grow and develop immensely. If they decline the teachings of Jesus and chose to scorn them and continue with their evil ways, then directly knowing about Christ changes nothing. Their attitude and choices had already determined that they would not be viewed favorably by God.

Ultimately, exactly what happens when you die is up for debate and interpretation as the Bible isn't particularly clear on the matter but what is evident is that simply never having heard of the teachings of Christ is not an impediment. Christians also believe that God has a way of showing himself to everyone. So even if he doesn't show himself explicitly to someone living in an isolated island, some spiritual manifestation is made and then it is up to that person to determine whether or not they want to follow the divine inspiration that God as imparted in them.

I don't understand why people can bicker so much over FAITH.

[quote=TrueAtheist]@redpitbull01

There are hundreds of scientific errors in the Quran.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific_Errors_in_the_Qur%27an

Feel free to go through them yourself and see how wrong your book is.

According to the Quran the moon orbits the Sun, so um yeah, you're wrong it's not infallible there's quite a few holes in it.[/quote]

I am assuming the response will be something along the lines of "We don't quite understand the metaphor in question". Somehow if a scripture by chance lines up with scientific knowledge it's proof of divine intervention, if it doesn't then the fault lies in us humans not interpreting it correctly, it's never the other way round.

@redpitbull01

There are hundreds of scientific errors in the Quran.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific_Errors_in_the_Qur%27an

Feel free to go through them yourself and see how wrong your book is.

According to the Quran the moon orbits the Sun, so um yeah, you're wrong it's not infallible there's quite a few holes in it.

@redpitbull01:

Now here's the problem with this conversation. You're misunderstanding what I am saying and responding accordingly. I never sad that your religion is illogical. I never said any religion is illogical at that. [b]I said that there's aspects of religion that cannot be comprehended by humankind and are therefore deemed illogical[/b]. That's what happens when we don't understand something or something makes no sense. Are you telling me you completely comprehend your God? Because to me that simply sounds arrogant.

[quote=redpitbull01]
You can't. Much of the world didn't exist until we explored it, same with the universe. Just because we can't perceive it yet doesn't make it not real.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it".
[/quote]

Actually, even if you say you explore it you can't say that it really is there. At most its just part of your mind imagining everything you say you explore. So no, exploring it doesn't mean it its actually real.

As for the "Quran all mighty revelations and miracles", it wouldn't refute my initial argument that you can't know for sure what you experience is what really is there.

[quote=redpitbull01]
Feel free to search up the miracles of the Quran.
It's impossible for a man to have written it, especially 1400 years ago.
Don't believe me? Google it.[/quote]

The Quran is also full of scientific inaccuracies, but you seem to ignore these.

[quote=Skyenets]@redpitbull01: I am not looking for a debate about religion. Because I have my views and you have yours. I would appreciate it if you don't force your views down on me, as I would never do that to another person myself. [/quote]

I'm sorry if I gave you that impression but I wasn't forcing anything on you, nor is this a debate; rather this is friendly exchange of knowledge.
I merely suggested that you read the 3rd of the 3 Holy Scriptures, because it has a lot to say about religion and answers many misconceptions that people have about religion that the Bible/Torah cannot answer as successfully. Therefore when talking about religion as a whole, the Quran is a very important factor to keep in mind because in Islam, it says all 3 religions came from one source; the first 2 were corrupted by humans for their own reasons, and the 3rd promised by God Himself to be kept pure and not corrupted. Having a religious text, [B]the only religious text to have not been altered by man [/B] is pretty significant and worth learning about, wouldn't you say? That is, if you want to talk about in proper depth.

[quote=Skyenets][B] Why don't I read it? Because I'm not interested in it. To me it's like saying "You should read all of the Twilight books". It's not my cup of tea, but to others it might be. Don't get me wrong, I'm not comparing the two because obviously a religious book contains a lot more quality than Twilight. [/B] [/quote]

How can you judge and call an entire religion illogical then? It's like saying science is illogical when you haven't even read the textbook.
One should always know about what they are judging before they judge it. That is all I am saying.

[quote=Skyenets]No, I was not denying the existence of any religious deity. I was saying that relative to how we live and believe in certain things in modern western civilisation, it is illogical. No matter what you say or do, there is no scientific logic to it. Don't misunderstand, I am more than sure that you find spiritual logic in it. But the logic I am speaking of has nothing to do with that. I was initially talking about for example the bush that caught fire in the bible, out of nowhere. That is not logically possible by modern day understanding. Does that mean it didn't happen? I don't know. I'm just saying it's not logical. [b]Don't twist my words because you didn't understand them.[/b] [/quote]

That is why I urge you to refer to the Quran instead because the Bible has been altered by man many times throughout the ages to the point that there is no original, unedited, uncorrupted version. The Quran is the only of the 3 religious texts to have not been altered since the time it was revealed. That is an extremely significant difference.

[quote=Skyenets]Now please stop taking my comments out of proportion and context. I find it uncomfortably rude for you to suddenly say "Oh you want logic? Read the Quran" as if I would suddenly convert and believe in all it has to say to me just by reading it. As if I would change my beliefs just because religious text is oh so convincing. [/quote]

Sorry if that's how it sounded, but I wasn't trying to make you convert, but rather trying to inform you that religion does involve logic, it's a big part of Islam actually. And there is absolutely no contradictions in the Quran. I more than welcome you or anyone to find one. No one has been able to find one in the past 1400+ years.
The Quran is a pretty good book, just saying.

[quote=Skyenets]I don't care for the proof of God that you believe is in the Quran. I'm Atheist. I will very likely never stop being an Atheist. You are Muslim, and you will very likely never stop being a Muslim. I respect your views and I will never deny them as something real to you. I think religion is a beautiful thing but it's not something I can put myself behind. That doesn't mean I will ever try to convince you otherwise. I ask you to do the same. Don't suddenly throw me into a discussion while there was never a need for one in the first place, in which you quite frankly try to deny my views and force your own down on me. [/quote]

I provided proof. If you don't want to accept proof that's your choice. Can't say it was never given. I'm not trying to convert you, lol. I can't convert anyone, they have to make that choice themselves. All I do is provide the correct information and clear up any misconceptions as well as provide knowledge. If you don't want these then OK, np, I'll stop trying to share my knowledge with you, but please don't call my religion illogical without having anything to back up what you say. I'm not offended, I just don't like the spread of false information, it can lead to corruption.

[quote=Skyenets]With that said, I think we're done here. Perhaps someday I will read the Quran. But it wont be to look for proof of God. It will be to read a good book.[/quote]

If you do, you will have both As salaamu Alaikum

[quote=WiziLiCe]That's ridiculous, saying the Quran is proof of "God".

Tell me, how can you say that anything beyond your perception truly exists?[/quote]

Actually it really isn't. Search up "miracles of the Quran" and see for yourself.
It's impossible for a man to have created it himself.

You can't. Much of the world didn't exist until we explored it, same with the universe. Just because we can't perceive it yet doesn't make it not real.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it".

[quote=TrueAtheist]lol saying the Quran is proof of God is like saying a Spiderman comic is proof of Spiderman.

Learn how the burden of proof works.[/quote]

Feel free to search up the miracles of the Quran.
It's impossible for a man to have written it, especially 1400 years ago.
Don't believe me? Google it.

[quote=imSpine]@fradddd: I was being sarcastic but okay...

Since when could Christians not have tatoos....

Tattoos. No tattoos. Leviticus 19:28 reads, "You shall not make any cuts in your body for the dead nor make any tattoo marks on yourselves: I am the Lord."

Not even a little butterfly on your ankle. Or Thug Life across your abdomen. Or even, fittingly enough, a cross.[/quote]

He's not Jewish. Learn2NewTestament bro.

thats like a load of BS seriously it like god some kinda of dictator people who belive it like my mom dont quistion god and no you dont go to hell if you dont know god which as one indian said "then why did you tell me"

limbo
Source: I'm Dante Alighieri's and Virgil's lovechild reincarnated in the body of a Chinese girl.

[quote=redpitbull01]If you don't know enough about it then why don't you read it?
The Quran has been called a phenomenon, a miracle, "not from man".
Search up "miracles of the Quran" and feel free to answer those miracles.

I'm not sure what you mean by perception, I can only assume you are talking about the senses and saying that since we cannot perceive God Himself, He is therefor as real as a unicorn; which is basically denying his existence, so yes, you are in a sense denying His existence.
Just because we can't perceive something, does not mean it doesn't exist. There are many things that we cannot perceive but still exist.
Our perception is limited (i.e. spectrum of vision, spectrum of hearing etc.). We didn't know about molecules, atoms, cells etc. until we developed instruments that allowed us to detect it's presence. Before that they were "non-existent".

As for proof of God, I point to the Quran.[/quote]

lol saying the Quran is proof of God is like saying a Spiderman comic is proof of Spiderman.

Learn how the burden of proof works.

@redpitbull01: I am not looking for a debate about religion. Because I have my views and you have yours. I would appreciate it if you don't force your views down on me, as I would never do that to another person myself.

Why don't I read it? Because I'm not interested in it. To me it's like saying "You should read all of the Twilight books". It's not my cup of tea, but to others it might be. Don't get me wrong, I'm not comparing the two because obviously a religious book contains a lot more quality than Twilight.

No, I was not denying the existence of any religious deity. I was saying that relative to how we live and believe in certain things in modern western civilisation, it is illogical. No matter what you say or do, there is no scientific logic to it. Don't misunderstand, I am more than sure that you find spiritual logic in it. But the logic I am speaking of has nothing to do with that. I was initially talking about for example the bush that caught fire in the bible, out of nowhere. That is not logically possible by modern day understanding. Does that mean it didn't happen? I don't know. I'm just saying it's not logical. [b]Don't twist my words because you didn't understand them.[/b]

Now please stop taking my comments out of proportion and context. I find it uncomfortably rude for you to suddenly say "Oh you want logic? Read the Quran" as if I would suddenly convert and believe in all it has to say to me just by reading it. As if I would change my beliefs just because religious text is oh so convincing.

I don't care for the proof of God that you believe is in the Quran. I'm Atheist. I will very likely never stop being an Atheist. You are Muslim, and you will very likely never stop being a Muslim. I respect your views and I will never deny them as something real to you. I think religion is a beautiful thing but it's not something I can put myself behind. That doesn't mean I will ever try to convince you otherwise. I ask you to do the same. Don't suddenly throw me into a discussion while there was never a need for one in the first place, in which you quite frankly try to deny my views and force your own down on me.

With that said, I think we're done here. Perhaps someday I will read the Quran. But it wont be to look for proof of God. It will be to read a good book.

[quote=redpitbull01]If you don't know enough about it then why don't you read it?
The Quran has been called a phenomenon, a miracle, "not from man".
Search up "miracles of the Quran" and feel free to answer those miracles.

I'm not sure what you mean by perception, I can only assume you are talking about the senses and saying that since we cannot perceive God Himself, He is therefor as real as a unicorn; which is basically denying his existence, so yes, you are in a sense denying His existence.
Just because we can't perceive something, does not mean it doesn't exist. There are many things that we cannot perceive but still exist.
Our perception is limited (i.e. spectrum of vision, spectrum of hearing etc.). We didn't know about molecules, atoms, cells etc. until we developed instruments that allowed us to detect it's presence. Before that they were "non-existent".

As for proof of God, I point to the Quran.[/quote]

That's ridiculous, saying the Quran is proof of "God".

Tell me, how can you say that anything beyond your perception truly exists?

[quote=Skyenets]@redpitbull01: I don't know enough about the contents of the Quran to really say something. Any religion that says there's a supreme being of any kind isn't logical. I'm not denying its existence or anything, I'm just saying that by general human perception it's about as logical as a unicorn.[/quote]

If you don't know enough about it then why don't you read it?
The Quran has been called a phenomenon, a miracle, "not from man".
Search up "miracles of the Quran" and feel free to answer those miracles.

I'm not sure what you mean by perception, I can only assume you are talking about the senses and saying that since we cannot perceive God Himself, He is therefor as real as a unicorn; which is basically denying his existence, so yes, you are in a sense denying His existence.
Just because we can't perceive something, does not mean it doesn't exist. There are many things that we cannot perceive but still exist.
Our perception is limited (i.e. spectrum of vision, spectrum of hearing etc.). We didn't know about molecules, atoms, cells etc. until we developed instruments that allowed us to detect it's presence. Before that they were "non-existent".

As for proof of God, I point to the Quran.

Remember kids, if you don't sin then Jesus died for nothing.

@imSpine: Eh, it's the old testament. That's so 2,000 years ago. The Old Testament is kind of like guidelines on how you should live, but not how you have to live to be Christian or go to heaven.

[quote=iDebauchery]If I went to hell, I would conquer it. If I went to heaven I would be sent to hell.[/quote]

Lo the romantic view of Satan. One of benevolency, beautifully the most forgiving angel to ever cross heaven. Under biblical reference ofc.

@imSpine:
I'll tell you what kind of Christian I am:
-I don't care about gays
-I've probably never stolen anything because I'm not a prick, or a criminal...how is that only a Christian moral? It's not.
-I have hair down to my shoulders and my more-Christian parents tell me to cut it, but so do Atheist (and other) kids at school, so once again: nothing to do with religion
-I don't play football because it's not interesting
-I don't believe in fortune telling because I'm not a gullible fool
-I don't have any tattoos because I don't know what to get (since when to Christians not have tattoos?)

See kid, you can't tell what kind of Christian I am. You obviously suck at analyzing, and judging, and your opinions harshly reflect that.

If I went to hell, I would conquer it. If I went to heaven I would be sent to hell.