basilmarket

WiziLiCe

[quote=mitarumetaro]@WiziLiCe if you're actually familiar with the problem, you would
know that it's actually pretty fatal, and remains a solid reason for rejecting (the
monotheistic) God altogether.
But, moreover, ...why would you start HERE if you wanted to talk about morality?
That's just nonsensical.[/quote]

Why start here? Good question, and it follows for there to be a good response. But
instead of simply explaining my reasons i'll present my view regarding the topic and
we'll go on from there, agree?

[b]Tales and Myths[/b]

As its told by Plato in his Apology, Socrates once set forth to the ancient Temple of the Oracle at Delphi to find out who the wisest man in the world was. This proved futile once the Oracle, on behalf of the god Apollo, announced that; [i]no one is wiser than Socrates[/i]. Tired and unsatisfied, Socrates found relief in his earnest sleep. This would be disturbed by fleet Hermes, to whom would appear in Socrates dream.[1]

The importance on this event is the conversation that followed between Socrates and Hermes. One of the most primal concerns being authoritative knowledge. (That which is told by a greater entity or a God and is 'swallowed' by the pleb)

[quote=Deutsch]
"[b]Hermes[/b]: How many are willing to criticize a god by the standards of reason and justice?

[b]Socrates[/b]: [Ponders.] All who are just, I suppose. For how can anyone be just if he follows a god of whose moral rightness he is not persuaded? And how is it possible to be persuaded of someone's moral rightness without first forming a view about which qualities are morally right?"[/quote]

Some would reckon that knowledge passed down by the authority is 'The final word'. Very few are willing to question it. But this is what Hermes describes to be justified belief and its not what we should pursue. Since;

[quote=Deutsch]
"In truth, beliefs cannot be justified, except in relation to other beliefs, and even then only fallibly. So the quest for their justification can lead only to an infinite regress- each step of which would itself be subject to error."[/quote]

Although I think it is more remarkable when they discuss the origin of knowledge.

[quote=Deutsch]
"[b]Hermes[/b]: Remember when you all got lost on your way here from the ship? And why?

[b]Socrates[/b]: It was because - as we realized with hindsight - we completely misunderstood the directions given to us by the captain.

[b]Hermes[/b]: So, when you got the wrong idea of what he meant, despite having listened attentively to every word he said, where did that wrong idea come from? Not from him, presumably

[b]Socrates[/b]: I see. It must come from within ourselves. It must be a guess. Though until this moment, it had never even remotely occurred to me that I had been guessing.

[b]Hermes[/b]: So why would you expect anything different happens when you do understand someone correctly?

[b]Socrates[/b]: I see. When we hear something being said, we guess what is means, without realizing what we are doing."[/quote]

Every oral communication, every written communication, every visual communication, we are constantly guessing at its meaning. That is the process of teaching right there. Educators can't just insert their knowledge into the learners head. Instead the learners have to guess at the educators meaning, creating their way to understand what they are being taught. This ofcourse is where the [b]Socratic Problem[/b] comes from. Since Socrates left us no writings, historians of ideas can only guess at what he really thought and taught, using indirect evidence of his portrayal by Plato.[2]

I think the perfect example for this is [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69F7GhASOdM]Plato's Allegory of the Cave[/url] :

[quote=Bullhead]"Imagine prisoners that have spent their entire lives chained deep inside a cave. They have been chained so that they cannot see behind themselves and they are forced to stare endlessly at the cave wall infront of them. Behind them a fire is burning, and between the prisoners and the fire is a walkway. Now imagine that each day a menagerie of objects crosses the walkway. Animals, people carrying their ways to the market. Their shades create and intricate shadow play in the wall infront of the prisoners. This is the only world that the prisoners have only known; The shadows and the echoes of unseen objects. Now imagine that a prisoner is released. After some time adjusting to the blinding light. The free prisoner will begin to experience the world outside of the cave for the first time. And its like nothing he could have ever imagined. With his new perception of the world the man will ofcourse want to return to his friends to share his incredible discoveries. But the prisoners cannot recognize their own friend. He appears as all things do. His voice is a distorted echo and his body is a grotesque shadow. THey cannot understand his fantastic stories of the world outside of the cave. To them it will never exist."[/quote][3]

I take God and religion as a myth. As putting your understanding of the world to the hands of faith. Like we all do at some point. We are blindfold so we must make conjectures about what is around us. And although it is not accurate, it is a place to start when finding out what is moral and what isn't. What is just and what isn't. The problem is, to not stay believing in those myths, but rather to criticize them to seek better explanations.

[1]= Deutsch, BoI (chapter 10) *I own a hard copy and couldn't find one online to link you
[2]= [url=http://stephenwhitt.wordpress.com/2011/12/05/the-beginning-of-infinity-chapter-ten/]stephenwhitt wordpress[/url]
[3]= [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69F7GhASOdM]Plato's cave[/url]

Reply July 8, 2014 - edited

Chema

Religion and morality don't get along
Religion only brings destruction, suffering and segregation