General

[quote=Wordolio]@Xreniya: b-but ignorance is bliss...[/quote]

tru
well it is sometimes

@Xreniya: b-but ignorance is bliss...

What bleach?

@Wordolio: i know but im just informing u

@Xreniya: I havent looked at the thread since I made it. I've only seen the comments I'm quoted in.

[quote=Wordolio]Are you serious ? At this point I can't tell if you're just pulling me leg to mess with me..[/quote]

im actually having the same conversation with someone else on this thread right now so

[quote=Xreniya]@Wordolio Plenair actually put it very well. Naruto touch, Bleach hover
edit: actually for most of these i dont think bleach even hovers, it just doesnt even bother

@Ruew Didn't you pay attention when Nagato was talking to Naruto? Hatred, war, peace. I don't feel like I should have to offer any explanation further than that, because I'd just be paraphrasing Nagato's own words.[/quote]

Are you serious ? At this point I can't tell if you're just pulling me leg to mess with me..

@Wordolio Plenair actually put it very well. Naruto touch, Bleach hover
edit: actually for most of these i dont think bleach even hovers, it just doesnt even bother

@Ruew Didn't you pay attention when Nagato was talking to Naruto? Hatred, war, peace. I don't feel like I should have to offer any explanation further than that, because I'd just be paraphrasing Nagato's own words.

[quote=Plenair]@Wordolio: "Bleach touches on the themes to fight for something, to never give up, and to never go back on your word."
What was Naruto's Ninja creed bro?

@Ruew: So because you can't answer your asspulls you make other people answer their question to avoid answering. What a scrub.

Bleach fans are the original SAO fan.[/quote]
So you're agreeing with me that bleach touches in themes then

@Xreniya: no, i'm making you do the work because i want to know why you think naruto deals with war (lol) so i can learn why you think bleach doesn't

@Ruew: I don't see why you're shifting this burden on me. From what you've said, it would seem that we both agree that Naruto deals with war. The difference is that I think Bleach doesn't, and you think that it does. The most obvious next step is for you to explain how Bleach deals with war, quit making me do all the work. Also, I'm going to sleep now, so I'll respond to whatever you say tomorrow.

@Xreniya: better yet, since we apparently have different definitions of war, how about you tell me how Naruto explores the concept of war (lol)

@Ruew: Explain to me how Bleach explores the concept of war.

@Xreniya: if you're telling me Naruto has the theme of war and Bleach doesn't, you're fooling yourself.

@Ruew: Probably the most contrived thematic connection I've seen. Just because war exists in the manga doesn't make it a theme that the author has deliberately explored

[quote=Xreniya]@Ruew: Then they were egregiously undeveloped. Where did Bleach "cover" these themes?[/quote]

war - well i think this is obvious
hatred - pretty clear as well
family- ichigo's family, also you could probably group in them rescuing rukia/orihime as family as well given their bonds
loneliness - obviously not to the degree that naruto covered it but when orihime left for Hueco Mundo or even when ichigo lost his powers and couldn't see these friends he built bonds with

@Ruew: Then they were egregiously undeveloped. Where did Bleach "cover" these themes?

[quote=Xreniya] naruto still has more mature themes. war, hatred, family, loneliness[/quote]
bleach covered all these themes as well lol, maybe not to the extent that naruto did in some of them, but covered them nonetheless

@Xreniya: oh i was talking strictly subject matter. though there may be more complex and i suppose mature themes, the amount of mature language, innuendo, and nudity scenes in bleach, far surpasses naruto's.

i guess we just agree to disagree on this.

regardless, they're both similar, and both very good imo.

@Wordolio: but i'm using all of that to say that naruto is more mature. i thought you disagreed with that before o_O

@Xreniya: i am agreeing with you again. I never disagreed with the fact that Naruto has more themes, i just personally feel that bleach as some themes aswell. I like both of them a lot.

[quote=Wordolio]@Xreniya: agreed.[/quote]

..which is to say that they're probably more a convention to the genre than a theme in the normal sense. either way, naruto still has more mature themes. war, hatred, family, loneliness? i mean cmon

@Xreniya: agreed.

@Wordolio: If those are Bleach themes, then every single fighting manga ever has those themes as well

[quote=Xreniya]@Wordolio: i said that naruto actually touched on themes, bleach doesn't really touch on anything
it's just exciting and bloody with scary monsters and sprites
the point is the themes, not its consequent complexity

@Plenair
Just a thing about the pacing, I think it might be better to read the whole thing at once and then make a judgement about the pacing that way, instead of just by reading it week by week. Bleach has incredibly slow pacing on a weekly basis, but if you were to read everything in one go then it wouldn't really be that slow since you'd be blazing through the chapters anyway, Bleach has like 2 panels per page. It may or may not be the same with One Piece. The arcs are still about 100 chapters long, which is the same as something like Skypeia or Water 7[/quote]
I disagree. Bleach touches on the themes to fight for something, to never give up, and to never go back on your word. There are others but these are just the main ones. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by themes.

orihime ruined bleach for me </3

@Plenair: What I'm saying is that it doesn't matter how much content there is per chapter when you're reading it all through, because you don't read chapter by chapter. You read it as one whole series, straight through. If there are a trillion chapters and each one has one panel per page, but when reading it through the pacing seems right and good, then I don't see a problem.

Again, if you prefer to read it week by week, then of course the pacing chapter by chapter is going to matter. But I think that week by week is a poor method of reading when compared to reading it all at once

@Plenair: To counter that, Bakuman had the perfect pacing week by week because it had a lot of dialogue. If you were to read it all at once, the pacing would be annoyingly slow (at least, I found it to be that way). Reading it faster isn't a matter of just reading faster, it's a matter of the the actual content on the page. Everybody reads Bleach faster than Naruto, cause Bleach has nothing on the page.

I suppose it's all a matter of which method of consumption you value more. I personally don't care how slow it seems to come out weekly, if it all comes together when I read it as a single, unbroken story, then that's fine by me. If you prefer to take things in week by week and judge the manga as a weekly, serialized medium rather than just one big ol' hunk of ink and paper, then that's cool too.

@Wordolio: i said that naruto actually touched on themes, bleach doesn't really touch on anything
it's just exciting and bloody with scary monsters and sprites
the point is the themes, not its consequent complexity

@Plenair
Just a thing about the pacing, I think it might be better to read the whole thing at once and then make a judgement about the pacing that way, instead of just by reading it week by week. Bleach has incredibly slow pacing on a weekly basis, but if you were to read everything in one go then it wouldn't really be that slow since you'd be blazing through the chapters anyway, Bleach has like 2 panels per page. It may or may not be the same with One Piece. The arcs are still about 100 chapters long, which is the same as something like Skypeia or Water 7

Two completely different shows cannot be compared.

@Plenair, that was actually a interesting read, you may have convinced me to watch a bit further into Naruto.

You make some good points as well, and I can agree with most of them. The thing about OP is that I can't even expect it too have good writing anymore, don't get me wrong, well thought out characters and story is always a plus, but it seems to me that OP always puts raw emotion first. I'm not saying that the flaws in the writing don't have any influence on its entertainment factor, they certainly do, but even despite those issues the show makes you focus more on the "good" and the "bad".
Most of the 600+episodes are actually pretty slow paced and boring in general, but it seems like there are always a couple short moments in an arc that so powerful it makes the 20-30 dull preceding episodes seem worth it. There always seems to be a pattern of development ----> release throughout every arc, its a fairly simple pattern but (at least for me) its surprisingly entertaining. I think what makes OP impressive compared to some of the other battle shounens is its ability to make you "forget" about its problems by continuously expanding the plot and abusing the development-----> release cycle.

@Xreniya: you implied naruto touched base on more themes than bleach. i consider that to add more complexity to the show.

Bleach was just my kind of manga. I liked the art a lot
as for naruto, in the pirates vs ninjas kind of thing I prefer pirates. Ninjas are meh.

[quote=Wordolio]@Xreniya: the word complexity... I said its more complex not that it is complex[/quote]

you never said it was "more complex" or that it was complex at all
you said that i was conflating complexity with maturity, which means that YOU were conflating complexity with theme
but just because something has a theme to it doesn't mean it's complex

i enjoy naruto more but
the best way to watch bleach is to jump in at random episodes

@Xreniya: the word complexity... I said its more complex not that it is complex

@Wordolio: Just because a manga has actual themes doesn't mean it's complex

[quote=Xreniya]I didn't say maturity means it's better, they were two unrelated comments.
Naruto deals with more mature themes than Bleach does. Bleach doesn't even have any underlying themes, it's just action sequence after action sequence (well done action, I will acknowledge; Tite Kubo is a great artist) for the most part. There are high points to Bleach, like when they rescue Rukia and when Ulquiorra dies, and maybe when Ichigo loses his powers, but Naruto is constantly bringing up ideas like hatred, revenge, war. Far more mature than Bleach, even if it doesn't have as much "blood" or "swearing" or "sexual innuendo".[/quote]

i think you're confusing complexity and mature subject matter...

Definitely Naruto. Bleach uses the same plot design for each arc. Deus ex machina is also used far too often. And the characters are horrible.

Bleach (though I love Naruto) only cus i'm a die hard fan

Well if we are talking about the big 3, as someone who has watched a significant portion of Naruto and Bleach, One Piece is incomparably superior to both of them.
I can't say I remember the details on Naruto too well, but Bleach just kind of lost momentum after the first arc(which was actually pretty entertaining) and everything fell into a mess(not even taking into account the fillers). That feeling of grandness that came fromt he world buidling we got from the SS arc never really showed up again, you could say that the show created such a epic world in the beginning but failed to properly maintain that world and somewhat wasted the world building in the beginning. In my humble opinion, One Piece does the exact opposite of this and just continues to expand faster and faster making full use of the many characters, events, and history of the show to create moments of incredible emotion.

[quote=Wordolio]maturity doesnt mean better, there a lot more gore, swearing, and sexual innuendo in bleach, not to mention it has a scarier concept and an older group of main characters. how ISNT it more mature than naruto?[/quote]

I didn't say maturity means it's better, they were two unrelated comments.
Naruto deals with more mature themes than Bleach does. Bleach doesn't even have any underlying themes, it's just action sequence after action sequence (well done action, I will acknowledge; Tite Kubo is a great artist) for the most part. There are high points to Bleach, like when they rescue Rukia and when Ulquiorra dies, and maybe when Ichigo loses his powers, but Naruto is constantly bringing up ideas like hatred, revenge, war. Far more mature than Bleach, even if it doesn't have as much "blood" or "swearing" or "sexual innuendo".

[quote=Xreniya]Bleach isn't more mature than Naruto wtheck
Naruto wayyyy better[/quote]

maturity doesnt mean better, there a lot more gore, swearing, and sexual innuendo in bleach, not to mention it has a scarier concept and an older group of main characters. how ISNT it more mature than naruto?

Bleach isn't more mature than Naruto wtheck
Naruto wayyyy better

[quote=LitheMovement]Slightly different reasons, but they were both paced out horribly. Could have been such nice shonen battle mangas, but it got so slow; Naruto with its incessant flashbacks in the middle of fights +talk no jutsu and face-heel turns, Bleach with empty panels or panels of feet running and power explanations.

I'm curious how you came to the conclusion that Bleach is a more mature version of Naruto.[/quote]

i found that the flashbacks are nearly gone in shippuden, but i agree the first 220 naruto episodes were frustrating as hell with all the flashbacks. As for why i think bleach is a more mature version. well, aside from th eobvious simalrities in the natures of the show and the characters, it feels like it was aimed at a teenage audience (14-17) where as i found naruto aimed at children 8-12 and shippuden 12-15. I find it a bit more mature because even though there is some sexual innuendo (thanks to pervy sage) in naruto, i found bleach had far more of it, and far more often. I also found the language in bleach to be more profane (at least in the english dubbed version). This is just a personal opinion i suppose, but aside from the main characters being older, the way they talked and act, just seem like it's targeted more towards highschoolers (not that im still a highschooler).

@avatar not sure if i understand your question correctly, but that hasmirama guy and the uchiha leader were either the only two students or sons of the sage of six paths. (iirc) the sage of thesix paths was the one who discovered and learned the natures of justu and chakra and whatnot so before him there was no jutsu it would be like the ninja's we have in the real world, just people fighting normally before he came along. then if i remember correctly he gave each son ahalf his powers (one his visual prowess (uchiha) and the other his fighting ability (senju), and that was hashirama and obitio (or madaraa or w.e) and that's how i remember it.

Anyone find it weird how they talk about the past in naruto? What I mean is how they call hashirama the god of shinobi (one of a few ninja of the past that's recognized) and how generally anything about the past in naruto revolves around the uchiha and senju fighting. But if you think about it, tsunade is hashirama's grandaughter so he only lived like 2-3 generations before naruto. You would think there would be a couple more ninja's worthy of praise before him. What the heck was everyone doing before that? hiding in caves?

Slightly different reasons, but they were both paced out horribly. Could have been such nice shonen battle mangas, but it got so slow; Naruto with its incessant flashbacks in the middle of fights +talk no jutsu and face-heel turns, Bleach with empty panels or panels of feet running and power explanations.

I'm curious how you came to the conclusion that Bleach is a more mature version of Naruto.

[quote=Avatar]I tried to watch bleach but it seems too weird for me.[/quote]

took me about 20 episodes before i found it even remotely entertaining or interesting.

I tried to watch bleach but it seems too weird for me.

Hands down, Naruto, 'cause I kinda never watched Bleach.