General

quote from zexord:

It does not matter, it could be about control, missing 30% boss damage or insane difference in your damage ranges. Just so you know, GB is one of the few elemental weak bosses out there, Paladins are supposed to do better than Heroes there easily. For your information, with only 20k damage range buffed GB takes me over 25 mins.

On topic: You guys realize that it has been said millions of times before, don't you ? Having higher skill multiplier does not necessary mean higher DPM dealt, unless you're talking about pure potential on paper made up by math which does not even come close to reality, then yeah. There is no perfect situation with two classes having the same exact funding/control/etc, but for the sake of comparison, I will point out a few missing points here.

- Heroes have 70% mastery, Paladins have 94% mastery.

- Heroes can ignore 40% PDR, Paladins can ignore 51% PDR. (solo)

- Heroes's Enrage is one of their main skills that have to be used in any 1VS1 situation, so it can't be compared to any other buffs such DS.

- Paladins will always have access to extra 34 ATK buff from DS that stacks with any ATK pot.

- Paladins will always be able to achieve closer DPM to their perfect DPM due to Guardian, Stance, and their defensive style.

I will talk about this one since it seems everyone is underestimating Paladin's defensive style and what it's capable of.

First off, there is a giant difference between Hero's stance and Paladin's stance, 90% VS 94%, meaning 10% chance of getting KB'd VS 6% chance, which leads to Paladins getting KB'd 40% less than Heroes. Now, in a flat map getting KB'd more often might not affect the DPM that much, but getting KB'd out of a platform (which is the case in Pap & Arms stage in Zak/cZak) then getting spammed with statuses such control converting/inability to jump/stunning/1-1/etc makes it take longer than you think to get back on the platform again. Secondly, Guardian. This amazing skill blocks every type of attack, be it physical or magic or even 1/1 at 42% rate, not just that, it also prevents getting seduced at 32% rate, and feel free to imagine how can Heroes land a single attack in such situations, let alone higher DPM. Another thing Guardian can provide is blocking stunning skills such Bodyguard's A stunning attacks. You don't wanna know how annoying & time consuming it can get to be constantly stunned by such attacks.

So yeah, it's still possible for Paladins to deal close or equal, maybe even higher DPM than Heroes on single neutral targets.

they have 50% crit, no need to buff up a combo to dish out damage on 3 monsters as well.
that speaks for itself

heroes gotta buff up combo, then enrage to start dealing damage

[quote=Yuenlung]Your reasoning is flawed. Threaten shouldn't be applied to the DPM of all jobs simply because of it's ease of access. If Threaten would be attributed to all other jobs' DPM, it would also be fair-game to also do the same with SI/SE/Rage/Thorns.[/quote]

You still require to be in a party to have access to those buffs. Threathen works with or without a party.

[quote=Sistine]Hmmm, so I was just plugging in some numbers on my calculator. Lets say hypothetically a paladin is using blast on a 40% pdr monster and hits it 100 times.
If you think of it as 21% chance of completely blocking Def, you get something like:
[79*(40%)+21*(0%)]/100=31.6% pdr on average.
This one can fluctuate a bit, but stabilizes if you do more blasts.

If you think of it as 21% pdr ignorance, you get something like:
.79*40%=31.6% pdr per blast.
If you set it as a limit with n=number of blasts, and n->infinity, the two ways of thinking about blast pdr rate are the same. Obviously that won't be the case, but the more blasts it requires to kill the boss, the closer the two numbers will be.[/quote]

Lol Nice, math always make my head hurts XD. But i guess thats on average isn't it? In a real combat the Completely ignore the PDR would happens more often or less often soooo... A good chunk of luck is in order to be the best i guess? XD

[quote=Sistine]It works the same way whether it's 21% chance to ignore all enemy defense or 21% ignorance of enemy defense.
Think about it as if it were an average.[/quote]

That too. But still completely ignoring all of the PDR of a mob and just reducing the PDR to 21% its a big difference if you ask me. (Not chart wise because a perfect situation its almost impossible, but a real kind of situation.)

[quote=Kojo]30% - 21% with Blast.

Either PDR doesn't work the way I think it does, or I'm right and PDR isn't constant.

L>confirmation or proof[/quote]

You don't subtract it. It works the same way mancartia stated.
As for proof, you can read up kira's blog on warrior dpm. She has it all listed and explained there with calculations, and I think she uses extraction information so it's definitely accurate.

you may be missing the fact that heroes have more skills that need to be maxed before they surpass the dpm of pallys, so since you're 136 you would only have IS and part of ACA maxed, you have no combat mastery or w/e it is. whereas your bro's pally is only hitting 1 monster anyway with blast which should be dealing more damage 1v1 anyway if its eleweak. either way at 136 he'd have blast acb and divine shield all either maxed or very nearly maxed. That would explain the difference in your damage.

[quote=Kojo]30% - 21% with Blast.

Either PDR doesn't work the way I think it does, or I'm right and PDR isn't constant.

L>confirmation or proof[/quote]

Monster have a Natural PDR Rate. For example zakum has 50% PDR.

Combat mastery Ignore 40% of and enemy defence so:

40%-50%=10%. Zakum will ignore 10% of the damage a hero does, but the other 90% still hit zakum.

Did you get that?

Or has mancartia said. I didn't bother too much with PDR calculations.

[quote=archxever]Im sorry... What? what is this 9% damage you are talking about? O.o[/quote]

30% - 21% with Blast.

Either PDR doesn't work the way I think it does, or I'm right and PDR isn't constant.

L>confirmation or proof

[quote=Kojo]..how would it be constant? Lets say a Hero and a Paladin are facing a boss with 30% PDR. The Paladin starts with 21%, the Hero starts with 40%. Ok, the Paladin is losing 9% damage while the Hero is doing full damage. Now the Paladin uses Threaten. Paladin has 51% and Hero has 70%. The Paladin gains 9% damage therefor now doing full damage. Where does the Hero get any damage boost?[/quote]

Im sorry... What? what is this 9% damage you are talking about? O.o

@Sistine: I may be wrong (even though i have a 14x paly >.&lt, but i think blast doesn't ignore 20(21)% of a monster pdr, i think its that blast has a 21% to ignore ALL of the monster PDR (At least the way i read the skill description tells me this)... But like i said first i may be wrong O.o.

Edit:
Blast: Strikes a powerful multi-hit blow on a single monster, [b]with a chance to ignore enemy defense[/b] and get a Critical Hit. Chance to Ignore DEF: 20% Lvl 30
Combat Mastery: Ignores a portion of a monster's defense while attacking-Defense Ignored: 40% Lvl 10

[quote=Sistine]Most people would look at the threaten for all % since it only takes 1 paladin, regardless of your party size/amount, to have threaten's pdr effect working for everyone attacking the boss. I'm pretty sure dusk already implemented threaten's pdr rate within the calculation for everyone. If he didn't, it shouldn't matter because it would still be a constant. The DPS chart says "Level 200 Single Target Boss DPS Calculator~created by Dusk."[/quote]
[quote=gtbrox]
21% pdr rate is already put into the calculation and so is 40% for heroes. Threaten works on the monster, and since this DPS chart is mostly looking at bossing 1v1 situation (ht/cht/czakbody/zakbody/etc), everyone gets threaten's pdr rate. In the end heroes will still do the higher dpm on neutral.[/quote]

..how would it be constant? Lets say a Hero and a Paladin are facing a boss with 30% PDR. The Paladin starts with 21%, the Hero starts with 40%. Ok, the Paladin is losing 9% damage while the Hero is doing full damage. Now the Paladin uses Threaten. Paladin has 51% and Hero has 70%. The Paladin gains 9% damage therefor now doing full damage. Where does the Hero get any damage boost?

[quote=Kojo]Ok..

Without Threaten altogether:

Hero = 40% PDR ignore
Paladin = 21% PDR ignore

With Threaten in squad bosses:

Hero = 70% PDR ignore
Paladin = 51% PDR ignore

With Threaten in solo:

Hero = 40% PDR ignore
Paladin = 51% PDR ignore

Thus, quoting from my previous post.."and it's the same on anything with 51% PDR or lower"

Again, are you forgetting that Paladins already have 21% ignore PDR with Blast? <_<[/quote]

21% pdr rate is already put into the calculation and so is 40% for heroes. Threaten works on the monster, and since this DPS chart is mostly looking at bossing 1v1 situation (ht/cht/czakbody/zakbody/etc), everyone gets threaten's pdr rate. In the end heroes will still do the higher dpm on neutral.

damn.

[quote=gtbROX]Nope. You must've done something wrong. Here are the values I got when I use vs. 3.05:
[b]20%[/b] http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f98/gtb_ROX/dps20.png
[b]30%[/b] http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f98/gtb_ROX/dps30.png
[b]40%[/b] http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f98/gtb_ROX/dps40.png
[b]50%[/b] http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f98/gtb_ROX/dps50.png
[b]70%[/b] http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f98/gtb_ROX/dps70.png

Did you bother to even check 20%-70% pdr? That's where most bosses lie in terms of pdr. Heroes have 40% pdr reduction and paladins have 30% from threaten which can increase the hero's dpm further. As for the rest of your post, that's opinionated so I won't bother commenting. We went through this already in the other thread. Paladins win at holy/fire weak, and heroes have neutral.[/quote]

Ok..

Without Threaten altogether:

Hero = 40% PDR ignore
Paladin = 21% PDR ignore

With Threaten in squad bosses:

Hero = 70% PDR ignore
Paladin = 51% PDR ignore

With Threaten in solo:

Hero = 40% PDR ignore
Paladin = 51% PDR ignore

Thus, quoting from my previous post.."and it's the same on anything with 51% PDR or lower"

Again, are you forgetting that Paladins already have 21% ignore PDR with Blast? <_<

[quote=Kojo][url=http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/5818/dpss.png]?[/url]

And it's the same on anything with 51% PDR or lower. Paladins also have less knockback and less abnormal status, and Heroes need to level more to have maximized DPS (Heroes need Enrage+Adv Combo+ Intrepid Slash+Stance+Combat Mastery, which is 130 points, Paladins need ACB+Blast+Stance+Holy Charge, which is 100 points, 130 points if you also want to count Guardian).[/quote]

Nope. You must've done something wrong. Here are the values I got when I use vs. 3.05:
[b]20%[/b] http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f98/gtb_ROX/dps20.png
[b]30%[/b] http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f98/gtb_ROX/dps30.png
[b]40%[/b] http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f98/gtb_ROX/dps40.png
[b]50%[/b] http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f98/gtb_ROX/dps50.png
[b]70%[/b] http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f98/gtb_ROX/dps70.png

Did you bother to even check 20%-70% pdr? That's where most bosses lie in terms of pdr. Heroes have 40% pdr reduction and paladins have 30% from threaten which can increase the hero's dpm further. As for the rest of your post, that's opinionated so I won't bother commenting. We went through this already in the other thread. Paladins win at holy/fire weak, and heroes have neutral.

He does better damage than you on elementally weak with blast and you don't have enrage which is crucial for Hero's 1v1 damage.

[quote=Kojo]Why does everyone think this? Paladins can beat Heroes even on neutral monsters due to various reasons.[/quote]

given this situation, this would probably be the only reason

Pallies have better DPM than heroes. thats why.

[quote=Sistine]Thanks for stating both of your ranges.
/sarcasm
You can't say that heroes are worse without stating both of your ranges, skill levels of damage increasing skills, and the monsters you were killing.

@Kojo: It's common knowledge by now that heroes beat paladins 1vs1 neutral, paladins beat heroes 1vs1 elemental. Go look at dusk's dps chart vs. 3.05[/quote]

[url=http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/5818/dpss.png]?[/url]

And it's the same on anything with 51% PDR or lower. Paladins also have less knockback and less abnormal status, and Heroes need to level more to have maximized DPS (Heroes need Enrage+Adv Combo+ Intrepid Slash+Stance+Combat Mastery, which is 130 points, Paladins need ACB+Blast+Stance+Holy Charge, which is 100 points, 130 points if you also want to count Guardian).

[quote=kubista2]THIS...it has to be this...on a monster not weak to pallys, equally funded, a hero beats a paladin.[/quote]

Why does everyone think this? Paladins can beat Heroes even on neutral monsters due to various reasons.

yeah i white scrolled/50% but im not even lieing he has like no funding what so ever but he outdmgs me by a lot...