Warrior s KMS You I GMS Unleashed

[quote=Sommonn]We spamm FT only ? or OS then FT[/quote]

Do what works best for you (:

If you want the best DPS, just read the bottom of the original post where I outline what's recommended.

We spamm FT only ? or OS then FT

[quote=Feeling]Nice job with all of this, I guess. But like you said before, veteran Arans from pre-Big Bang and even pre-Chaos (even though there aren't that many of us left, and even less in this forum) are glued to OSFB, because that's how Aran has always attacked. I do still use FT but I don't intend to use it as much as it is "recommended." It is nice to have that variety, like Rambro said earlier, but I'm going to stick with using OSFB the majority of the time. Not to mention it is pretty tough to master FT. xD
Again, nice job with all the calculations of this. I encourage you guys to use FT if you like it, it's your story. This is just my opinion. [/quote]

Feeling,i feel you. XD i too am a veteran as well if ya remember. and ill take anything that throws at me,and was it worth it to get a book for High mastery 30 even though its gonna get lowered to 20?

[quote=ThatBox]Please not this discussion again.

final toss is better, but i encounter 2 problems with it that cause me to prefer overswing in most cases.
Final toss [b]tosses[/b] the monsters in the air unless they are of boss status.
Final toss uses up lots of MP, considering the low Hp and Mp of arans.[/quote]

I agree, Final Toss isn't a very reliable attack on monsters that bounce and monsters that you can't 1shot.
However, I don't know of any monsters I can't 1shot with an FT, unless they're boss monsters, which don't bounce anyway.

As for your second point, I argue that A) if you care about damage, the money for MP potions should just be a tiny, incidental cost especially compared to obtaining better equipment; and B) if you train with OSFB, you will spend more time killing monsters, and even though it uses MP at a lower rate, it takes longer, and thus both OSFB and FT require roughly the same number of potions for the same amount of EXP.

Please not this discussion again.

final toss is better, but i encounter 2 problems with it that cause me to prefer overswing in most cases.
Final toss [b]tosses[/b] the monsters in the air unless they are of boss status.
Final toss uses up lots of MP, considering the low Hp and Mp of arans.

Nice math!
But, osfb all the way <3 final toss is boooooring

[quote=mikorosky]@phoenix23: You should also use osfb when your fingers cease to function properly after spamming it for half an hour. (Why did they have to bind it to down+up? >.< )

Also, in theory this works great, but how do you keep up the FT spam and avoid using Judgment by mistake every time you pass 100 combo? Using it decreases your dps, I believe, and I can't find a way around this problem.[/quote]

to avoid that you don't press down up attack at the same time you press the buttons in order but you gotta do it fast cuz pressing the buttons at the same time it might register it as judgement. idk about others but i've never casted any finishers by pressing all the buttons at the same after going to pyramind pq, i've always press the buttons in their order and i guess pyramind pq helped me figure that out when i started my aran

@mikorosky: I've elaborated on several FT techniques earlier in this topic, have a look!
@ShadeCombo: Thanks!
@Unwavered: Post-union, I do not know how big the range of swing skills gets. Pre-union (current), I recommend you go to a map with stationary monsters (I used Nependeaths) and you'll see that you can kill them from a further range with FT than with any OS swing. (FB is obviously longer range).
@Blazy4lyfe: AFA works just fine with Overswing. It can proc (trigger) up to 3 times in an Overswing (one per swing).
@sgammer69: No one in this topic is talking about keybinding, so I'm not sure how that's relevant. Also, it was patched months ago. Like hyperfreak said, FT spam is unlocked by a 4th job passive skill.

@ everyone who "doesn't support" FT spam: would you like a carrot or a cube of sugar for that high horse you're riding? No one needs your "support". It's a game where anyone builds whatever they want. If you don't care about numbers, why are you posting in a math topic? I'm here to highlight the huge (35%) difference in DPS that FT has over OSFB. If this doesn't seem attractive to you, that's fine, but please, be careful not to mislead others into thinking that FT spam is somehow "wrong".

[quote=sgammer69]Any Aran who keybinds isn't an Aran at all.[/quote]

Woah woah woah
You better not be calling all the Arans out there who spam FT keybinders because it's part of their 4th job skill book
if not, please word yourself clearly x-x
OT : I don't support FT spam toss as a Day1 Aran
Sosorry.

[quote=Feeling]Nice job with all of this, I guess. But like you said before, veteran Arans from pre-Big Bang and even pre-Chaos (even though there aren't that many of us left, and even less in this forum) are glued to OSFB, because that's how Aran has always attacked. I do still use FT but I don't intend to use it as much as it is "recommended." It is nice to have that variety, like Rambro said earlier, but I'm going to stick with using OSFB the majority of the time. Not to mention it is pretty tough to master FT. xD
Again, nice job with all the calculations of this. I encourage you guys to use FT if you like it, it's your story. This is just my opinion. [/quote]

I agree with Feeling... As a first day Aran, I always loved using OSFB and I don't really care about the most efficient way to get rid of mobs or anything. Just like Arans because they're fun.

so final attack doesn't work with overswing?

As a first day Aran representative, I approve this Arantastic Mathematic skill!

But on a more serious note, @phoenix23 Your math skills never fails to amaze me! Major props to you and hope all the other Arans around here will learn what to do in the future!

[quote=EatNow]Final toss is good and all but Im a cheap ass and hate the huge mp usage.[/quote]

get jr.bugi (w.e its called) familar, heal 300 mp/4 secs i think

@EatNow: just don't use booster, your dps will take a hit but your man will drain much less quickly!

Final toss is good and all but Im a cheap ass and hate the huge mp usage.

Thanks for your insight... "even though Final Toss is 35% better DPS than OSFB, it it flat out stupid".
...I respect your opinion, and you're definitely not alone in your irrational hatred of FT. But really this topic is about facts and proof.

final toss spam is flat out stupid to me. I like the spinning and the polar bear attack

@Dacarlover: Yeah probably. Didn't do any math, just wanted to give you a general idea that when your range goes higher and higher you look to different skills.

[quote=Feeling]Nice job with all of this, I guess. But like you said before, veteran Arans from pre-Big Bang and even pre-Chaos (even though there aren't that many of us left, and even less in this forum) are glued to OSFB,[/quote]

here i am
i hate FTspam... makes me fell like dualblader or something like that, ill be glued to OSFB forever xD

@phoenix23: when regular attacks hit ~400-500k, wouldnt it be better to use rolling spin?

and thanks for the reply

Yeahhhhh. I love Final Toss! Its great because imma poor aran, and i suck at zakking so i don't have fb!

[quote=BanhMi]I actually have no trouble at all using FT
My ring finger is on down, middle finger on up. I press both at almost exactly the same time but I angle(?) my fingers slightly so that down will always hit first? I basically lock my fingers I guess. And then my left hand hits ctrl to execute. I never judgment by accident - in fact it is difficult to do so when I want to because my character will keep FTing for a few seconds after I stop pressing the keys. In any case, it's actually really easy for me o.o is there some kind of disconnect between what I'm doing and what other people are doing..?[/quote]

I can only imagine some people don't lock their fingers, or they use the finger roll method (unreliable), or they hit both at the same time, or their up and down directional keys are really close together (like on netbooks).

I actually have no trouble at all using FT
My ring finger is on down, middle finger on up. I press both at almost exactly the same time but I angle(?) my fingers slightly so that down will always hit first? I basically lock my fingers I guess. And then my left hand hits ctrl to execute. I never judgment by accident - in fact it is difficult to do so when I want to because my character will keep FTing for a few seconds after I stop pressing the keys. In any case, it's actually really easy for me o.o is there some kind of disconnect between what I'm doing and what other people are doing..?

Yeah, I was talking about vertical range @above!
However I did know that from playing my aran for what seems like forever

Thanks for all the replies and support! I'd like to credit @Largestroad (again) for doing the calculations at the same time as me and confirming my results.

To all those who have trouble with accidental judgments, (and I'm looking at you in particular, @zzomgitzSEAN ) make sure to use distinct keystrokes, as @Feeling said. It's down, then, up, then attack. You should be hitting at least 9+ keys per second, and if you don't have a lot of practice you will need to work on it.

I think you should try using the numpad directional keys (the 2 and the 8 for down and up, respectively). Make sure Num Lock is OFF.
Because the Numpad Up and Down keys are much further apart than the directional Up and Down keys, it's MUCH easier to make distinct clean keystrokes and this helps you use FT spam with a much lower risk of accidentally using Judgment.
I'd also like to mention that you can in fact set up macros on a keyboard similar to like you would on a controller.

--

To the guy who doesn't care about numbers, I'm not sure why you're trying to be a jerk about it. I think training fast is fun, and I want to present the correct information to anyone who might find it useful. If you don't find it useful, I'm not sure why you'd post here.

[quote=Iamboobear]I agree, nice job TS!
I only use OSFB for the range it gives to defend maps for my friends.[/quote]

I must tell you that currently, FT'S HORIZONTAL RANGE IS LONGER THAN OS. This surprises a lot of people.

Horizontal range [current]: FB > FT > OS
Horizontal range [after Union]: FB > OS = FT

Maybe you meant vertical range. OSFB has FT totally beat.
Except in some weird cases... I was farming for empress cape recipes at Storms (at Future Ereve). They're little spirits that kinda float. It was very frustrating, the 2nd swing (the spinny one) of Overswing wouldn't hit them.

@Dacarlover:

As you increase your damage into the extremes, here is the breakdown.

Until you can reliably hit cap, FT is better DPS.
You will first hit cap with FT. When FT -always- hits cap and Overswing hits cap with FB, both swings of Double and both swings of Triple, switch to using OSFB.
When AFA starts to sometimes hit cap but regular attacks don't, switch back to FT if you want, both attacks will give similar damage for you.
When Rolling Spin hits 500k's reliably (and cap with crits), use Rolling Spin (if you maxed it).
When your regular attacks hit 500k's, only use OSFB. You win the game.

If you have any doubts, I suggest you look into the math and figure out what works best at your extremely high range.

[quote=zzomgitzSEAN]You got it backwards I think. It's up and down at the same time, then ctrl. That's what I do atleast, but im only 12x.[/quote]

Nope, you need to press down, [i]then[/i] up, [i]then[/i] attack, but you need to do it all rapidly. Pressing them all at the same time works sometimes, but it leads to accidentally using Judgment a lot.
It takes a lot of practice.

I thought Sudden Strike's damage bonus was additive. Well this is good news to me!
FT Spam ftw

oh come on , no one answered my question about OSFB vs FT spam

@Feeling:
[quote=Iamboobear]I agree, nice job TS!
Feeling, I am a Pre-BB aran myself (first day if you must) and I've learned to change pretty easily. I only use OSFB for the range it gives to defend maps for my friends. I'm just saying that it's pretty easy to evolve from OSFB. I must say that you should use whatever skill is most comfortable for you because that's what reall matters.[/quote]

Just wondering about my question in my last comment
FT spam or OSFB spam if you hit 999k anyways
Also, How do you spam FT after 100 combos? (it's pretty easy to spam FT, but since I prefer attacking till about 500~600 combos or until my buffs run out, I find it annoying that when you FT 3 times a second after 100 combos, it's VERY easy to lose them and use judgement.... )

@Iamboobear: Well yeah, I've "evolved" too, so to speak. xD
I'd say I've learned how to use FT quite well.
When I used to train in LHC at glitched maps, I would use FT all the time. I fully realized that it raised my DPM so I used it all the time haha.

[quote=Feeling]Nice job with all of this, I guess. But like you said before, veteran Arans from pre-Big Bang and even pre-Chaos (even though there aren't that many of us left, and even less in this forum) are glued to OSFB, because that's how Aran has always attacked. I do still use FT but I don't intend to use it as much as it is "recommended." It is nice to have that variety, like Rambro said earlier, but I'm going to stick with using OSFB the majority of the time. Not to mention it is pretty tough to master FT. xD
Again, nice job with all the calculations of this. I encourage you guys to use FT if you like it, it's your story. This is just my opinion. [/quote]

I agree, nice job TS!
Feeling, I am a Pre-BB aran myself (first day if you must) and I've learned to change pretty easily. I only use OSFB for the range it gives to defend maps for my friends. I'm just saying that it's pretty easy to evolve from OSFB. I must say that you should use whatever skill is most comfortable for you because that's what reall matters.

[quote=phoenix23].

[b]Overswing[/b]
Time per OS (at speed cap): 1.41s
Damage per OS: 1880%
Expected AFA procs per OS: 1.8
Average AFA damage per OS: 450%
Total damage per OS: 2330%
[b]Total OS Damage per second: 1652%[/b]

[b]Overswing+Final Blow[/b]
Time per OSFB (at speed cap): 2.01s
Damage per OSFB: 2945%
Expected AFA procs per OSFB: 2.4
Average AFA damage per OSFB: 600%
Total damage per OSFB: 3545%
[b]Total OSFB Damage per second: 1764%[/b]*

[b]Final Toss[/b]
Time per FT (at speed cap): 0.33s
Damage per FT: 640%**
Expected AFA procs per FT: 0.6
Average AFA damage per FT: 150%
Total damage per FT: 790%
[b]Total FT Damage per second: 2370%[/b]

*OSFB DPS does not take into account the 100% crit or the PDR. At 100+ combo, without any external buffs, Crit chance is 80%. More than half the time (51.2% of the time), FB would proc 3 crits even without the forced critical that comes with FB. This does not give a very significant advantage and is nowhere near enough of a boost for OSFB to compete with FT spam.
**As it has been since Chaos, Sudden Strike's damage bonus is multiplicative. That means that a 60% boost to FT's 400% equates (1.6x400=) 640%. If you like, go test it yourself on an unlucky green snail, you'll see it does more than (4.6x your range), it'll actually do up to (6.4x your range).

It should be noted that with FB's 20%PDR does help against bosses. However, Cleaving Blows gives 40%PDR to all attacks. Some recent experiments are arguing that %PDR still doesn't calculate properly and doesn't stack very well.
In any case, FB's PDR does not significantly change your damage output except at very dangerous bosses, and in these cases it's often wise not to use FT because it can be hard to stop FT spam and because OSFB has a longer range.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Conclusion: Use FT on any mob you one-hit, any mob that doesn't bounce, and on most bosses. Use OSFB in the other rare cases and against endgame bosses. High Mastery and Advanced Final Attack should be prioritized after maxing Sudden Strike.[/quote]

Even before Union, with a 13Xk range, I'm able to hit the cap with OS 100% of the time, and around 90% of the time with FB, So I has wondering,
FT Spam does 3mil dmg/sec when the cap is reached, (90% crits)
but OS + FB would do a total of [1 regular hit + 4 Overswing hits + 3 100% crit hits]
which would mean around a [Critical 0.9* [250k + 4*999k] + 3*999k ] every 2.01sec wouldnt it?
In this case, wouldn't OSFB spam be better than FT spam?

I don't like to see this, I hate FT spam.... It takes away the uniqueness of arans...

Nice job with all of this, I guess. But like you said before, veteran Arans from pre-Big Bang and even pre-Chaos (even though there aren't that many of us left, and even less in this forum) are glued to OSFB, because that's how Aran has always attacked. I do still use FT but I don't intend to use it as much as it is "recommended." It is nice to have that variety, like Rambro said earlier, but I'm going to stick with using OSFB the majority of the time. Not to mention it is pretty tough to master FT. xD
Again, nice job with all the calculations of this. I encourage you guys to use FT if you like it, it's your story. This is just my opinion.

Thank you!