General

@Maninae: I bet you would! I'll probably put the link in my makeshift guide.

Sunday I will be making a video about how to use FT properly and easily, for both Keyboard and Controller users.

I'm afraid of the size of this undertaking
Might take a few days!

FT is just WAAAY too hard for me to execute, so... OSFB for me

@phoenix23: Yeah, you have a point lol. I was level 147 when we even got Big Bang, let alone Chaos when I was like 17x. I had OSFB maxed way before anything was known about FT lol.

No one said FT is the only attack we need.
And overall, I could see how people think OSFB is more valuable than SSFT. Sure. I have no problem with that.

But for the purposes of training hard from 120-140+, nothing -- NOTHING beats FT spam at high-spawn high-hp maps like LHC.
TS is 12X. He wants to know what will benefit him the most.

@Feeling: I see why you think OSFB is more valuable. I don't think you're in a position to promote it, though, as you must have maxed FB and OS a long time ago (am I right in assuming SS didn't even exist when you were 120-140?) You must see that for 9 extra SP, the benefits of maxing SS early are incredible and have no palpable downside, provided that you can take the keystrokes. Though, the quote you took of me is from much earlier in this topic, have a look at what else has been said.

@phoenix23 has inspired me... man, I already have my Overswing maxed and my Final Blow at 1, I've been going after Freeze Standing lately-- I think after I max Freeze Standing I'll go for Sudden Strike. I find myself mobbing with that a lot, and when two Arans Final Toss next to each other, it's... beautiful.

[quote=phoenix23]@ FT vs OSFB

Why waste 60 SP when you can spend 10 points on Sudden Strike?
If you're not skilled enough to spam Final Toss you should practice. It's not difficult. If you're lazy and smart, you could just program a keyboard macro.

They're called SKILLS. The better you execute them, the better your DPS should be.

People argue that OSFB is better 1v1. I argue that you shouldn't ever really be hitting 1 enemy. Aran's aren't very good at 1v1 anyway. Their strength is mobbing. Play to that strength. At a glitch LHC map (where everyone who is anyone trains) you'd be hard-pressed to find a single enemy to hit.

After legend and union, FB gets buffed and so does Sudden Strike. The practicality is tough to compare, since our attack range was increased for both skills.
After legend, damage decay is reduced. This is good for OSFB.
After union, damage decay is removed. This is good for OSFB.
After union, we get FA and AFA. This is good for the faster attack (FT).

Really, they're both great. Currently, it's much more effective and efficient to max Sudden Strike first.

IF... you train with SE a lot (higher crit rate), SE benefits FT more than it does OSFB because FB will always crit. With SE, I have like a 75% crit rate. Combined with FT's fast attack, it literally looks like a 8-mob red Hurricane number stream.

IF... you train with CO a lot (increases skill levels), CO benefits OSFB more than it does FT because OS and FB are 4th job skills and their levels get increased to 32. While level 12 Sudden Strike is good, Final Toss doesn't increase in level (because it's a 3rd job skill).

Problem spamming final toss? If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen.[/quote]

I kind of agree with you but there are some issues with FT. OS and FB are equally important if not more-so than FT.
After union and legend I think FT and OS+FB become neck and neck though, it'll just be whichever one you prefer spamming. e_e
As of now though, FT is better on larger mobs.
The 50% damage boost from SS isn't that great though. You still should definitely get OSFB, it's more viable in a lot of situations. Like people have said before, FT is really only useful when LHC monsters are rushed into a corner. OSFB is more practical almost everywhere else. Theoretically FT does win out, and by a very noticeable amount (even in-game I notice how much faster I'll kill 8 bearwolves using FT compared to OSFB), but it's still important to max OSFB. The 50% damage from SS isn't as important as maxing OS and FB, because you definitely won't, and shouldn't, ONLY be using FT.

I also agree with @PcPls123:. Most of the time DPM calculations on paper are not as effective or practical in-game. After playing your Aran for so long you learn what's better and when it's better. No kind of calculation could disprove that.

Hands on in a controlled experiment > anecdotal hands on.

Just saying.

@Maninae:

Fair points. I'll just maintain that FT's range allows for a few positioning options over OS, but generally OS allows for better positioning. And yes, I'll maintain that the mob DPS from FT far outweighs this minor difference.

By "showing you the light" I meant to show you calculations that favor HM before OS. Excuse my taste for grandeur. Sometimes it comes off as pompousness.
Basically if you have a really poor range, you'll deal more damage with 30 HM and 1 OS than you would with 1 HM and 30 OS. Your range does need to be far below average for this to work though. So this doesn't apply to most people.

The only major disagreement we have is that you think FT is impractical, and I have yet to show you how to make it practical. I'm going to try making a tutorial this weekend that will demonstrate some pretty neat tricks (advancing with FT, jumping while spamming FT, etc.) that can be done with a keyboard or a controller. Most of this will be set around LHC. I'll try and include proof that FT has a longer range than OS, just for you <3.

Another, related point of contention we have is in our build orders. You thankfully understand some of the benefits of FT, and you support the idea of focusing an early 4th job build around it. I'm not sure why you think OS takes precedence over HM in this particular build.

I plan to convince you and other Arans out there that FT is the skill you should be using >95% of the time from 120-140. But I want there to be an alternate build, because I do realize there are people out there that do not understand or can not achieve the benefits of FT.

There is no need to make a compromising build. I sincerely believe that there are two very good builds. At 120, every aran should get three skills:
1 Sudden Strike to see how they like FT spam.
1 OS to see how they like OS
1 FB to see how they like OSFB.

This gives each individual Aran the insight they need to make their own decision. If they can stand to spam FT and if they can work it into their training regime in a way that greatly benefits their training, then all the more power to them.

If they opt for FT training, they should max SS then focus on HM to improve the DPS provided by FT.
If they opt for OS training, they should max OS then focus on HM and FB (for super low damage-range, HM > OS > FB. for regular damage-range, OS > HM > FB. For super super funded players, OS > FB > HM... but only if you use FB a lot.)

In the end, I think we can both agree that each player should tailor their skill build to their own preferences. I do feel that many players are vocally opposed to FT and this is why I passionately defend FT. BUT as you can see from my guide, I am actively in pursuit of accommodating the needs of every type of player.

If you'd like to continue discussing build order, I'd like it if we continued in my topic, as I think we've dominated this topic quite enough.

@1RetroHero: thank you for your wisdom! now gtho.

@LargestRoad: for SS multiplier, You've made this claim before, but I couldn't find any proof. Could you back it up?
Post-Union, OSFB gets a huge buff. I don't see FT being able to keep up if AFA doesn't work with it.

@xishadowerix: It should be the same as hero's. Just extra numbers.

May seem like a nooby question... But will the Final Attack for Arans have an animation or will it just be a "number" appearing after an attack?

[quote=Maninae]
Well, I wasn't thinking about how a monster spawns behind you, more that you will occasionally be knocked forward by attacks or a crocky will pull loose and meander behind you. In those cases, that small range is more than enough to put everything back into order. As for FT, even if its forward range is (supposedly, claimed by you) greater than OS, that hardly matters as OS passively inches you forward, stationing you within range of the monsters.[/quote]
Monster spawn can be a problem for both, all I'm saying is that with a bit of strategic positioning you can overcome it with both OS- and FT-oriented builds. The backwards component of OS is a plus. The longer range of FT is a plus. It's fairly balanced, IMO. So we can probably drop this point. And seriously, go test FT versus OS range, I wouldn't make this stuff up.

[quote=Maninae]I understand, but please go back and read Xenjitsu's passage again. By using Castle Golems as an example, he has outlined several MAJOR points of argument between FT and OSFB, and it applies to 12x-14x as well. By his experience (I am not one to speak, 131 being my highest char xD), OS' benefits are much more needed that the DPS gain from FT, and its logically sound as far as I'm concerned.[/quote]

[quote=Maninae]With OSFB, you have to rush far less because mobs aren't running helter-skelter as they may constantly be with FT, and it provides built-in movement to follow your mobs. FS isnt as essential; I believemost maplers are smart enough not to move away from platform edges. And damage (DPS only) hierarchy has already been established, many, many times: FT>OSFB on mobs, OSFB>FT on 1v1. I only got the impression Xen was arguing for OSFB because of its several other subtle yet crucial aspects that you have failed to incorporate in your quest to seek the highest mob DPS. [/quote]
I wish you could watch me train, really. There's no subtlety to it. I see a platform with 4+ mobs on it. I go to that platform. I spam FT (or rolling spin if I need combos) and that pushes them all together. I advance a little, put myself in the right spot, and spam FT. The mobs are completely frozen on the edge of the platform, and a flurry of red numbers appears above their heads faster than with WAB or Hurricane. My Aran stands in one spot and deals out the flood of damage. Really, there's nothing subtle about it.

[quote=Maninae]
By bossing, I don't mean in the strict sense of Zakum, HT, PB, etc. I intended it to mean more on anything 1v1. Frankenstein for R&JPQ, Pianus for KentaPQ, Silent Crusade bosses (a joke, but you understand), and the like.[/quote]
I get it. I still don't think it's worth the huge investment of OS just for a bit of casual early bossing.

[quote=Maninae]The patronization was necessary at the time, I'm sorry to say. You seemed intent on ignoring the major, in-your-face, obvious fact that an OSFB sequence does much, much more damage than a measly 400%.[/quote]He said speed. I read speed. Somehow you read damage over time. And now you're implying damage per attack.
[quote=Maninae]I was simply pointing out that your Southperry thread was void and null. FB contributes to much of the DPM of OSFB. Once again, "[you] are convinced that"... without proof. Same with that of the range of FT and OS. I was simply seeking proof; taking your word for it in addition to a conclusion based on one's own judgment doesnt seem as accurate as if I can see the calculations themselves. Also: FB will outstrip FT hands down in range.[/quote]

I really have no clue what you're going on about here. The Southperry thread was where Xen got his numbers (though he mixed them up).
And yes, I DO have my own proof that OSFB works just fine on 1v1 and can be better than FT. Just look earlier in this topic. Page 2-3, right before you jumped in.
I don't get your point here. You're just reiterating that FT is better for mobs and that OSFB is better for 1v1.

[quote=Maninae]As for the [b] Facts that we agree on [/b] that seems about right. [/quote]
Okay, glad we see eye to eye on what's important.

Except...

[quote=Maninae]Should we determine a more hybrid build then? I'll give you your 3 levels of SS; 50% damage seems reasonable for 10 points. After, I believe it should be OS, decent FB, HM, and the remaining skills.[/quote]

Yes, let's wait for tomorrow.
I'll show you the light. I actually can't wait. I've got some math to do. I'll be happy to hammer out a build for you, but I'm quite certain it will be different from this preliminary suggestion of yours.

@Maninae: I'll try (and fail) to keep this brief.

Don't assume I could infer he meant DPM when he said speed. He used the improper and misleading wording, and now you're bugging me about having misinterpreted it.

I agree that training isn't usually all about DPS, but at LHC when you're in a party of 6, your DPS is the largest factor in obtaining the largest portion of the exp. Where I train, in glitched LHC maps, mobility is not usually an issue as there is almost always a giant mob right in front of you. I move from mob to mob, sometimes switching platforms.

I see what you mean by OS hitting monsters behind you, but as I have pointed out, the backward range on the attack is less than formidable. Plus, with OS, you're advancing constantly forward, decreasing the chance that a monster spawning behind you will be within range to be pulled.
Furthermore, as you now know, FT has a longer forward range than OS. Like I said, by knowing where exactly on the platform monsters will spawn, you can position your FT spam in a strategic way so that any new spawning monsters will be added to your mob (basically you stand where you expect the monster to spawn, and when it does FT knocks it forward toward your mob). This is much easier on the smaller, upper platforms. I do this a lot actually.

For KB... try it out yourself, if you ever get the hang of FT spam. When you're spamming FT on a mob, no matter who else is attacking, YOU are the one who is knocking the monster back. I attribute this to the speed of FT. And like I said earlier, if you can't get along with your party you've got another issue altogether, don't blame FT.

This whole debate is about 12X or 14X. Xen jumped in and started arguing that OS is better at Castle Golems.
I haven't been to Castle Golems in my life. I don't think I ever will. I'm told they're garbage, I believe it. In any case, they're a place where some 160+ maplers train.
I don't know why he brought up 160+. By that point, you'd have both SS and OSFB maxed so it's moot. Edit: like seriously, who the s gives a f about CASTLE GOLEMS?

When mobs are scattered, I rush them to a corner. When I need to stay on a platform, I have FS for that. I've yet to encounter a situation at LHC where I thought OSFB to be beneficial over FT except in one case, and that's when I'm being lazy, sniping at mobs with FB from a safe platform.
I have to repeat myself because Xen didn't read anything on pages 1-3 and I got the impression he was unaware FT is far superior on larger mob numbers.

Arans shouldn't be focusing on bossing before 150. If you want to, that's your choice. It can be fun and it can bring you pretty nice rewards. But really, Aran's are somewhat useless at most bosses until they have a lot more skills (FS, HD/CB, etc).

Yes, your rewording of Xen's faulty sentence is much easier to read. Don't patronize me. FT still provides greater DPM, therefore the speed difference is NOT negligible and the statement is false anyway.

Interesting point about FB and the 100% crit. I've been training with SE most of the time, and having 75% crit on all my other attacks somewhat mitigates the attractiveness of FB. For this reason, I'm convinced that (without SE) OSFB can compete with FT on 1v1. I can't see how it matters though, as the most effective and efficient training is done on mobs.

If you doubt me, go test the horizontal range of FT vs. Overswing yourself. Until you do and you inevitably see that it's true, shut up. You've no basis for an argument here.

Regarding low-level mob training... (Here I am, forced to repeat myself again), as I already said, it depends largely on what low level mob you're dealing with. You can't argue that OS > FT in all cases. If you can oneshot with FT but can't oneshot with a regular attack, FT is the best choice. It's very situational, and shouldn't have much bearing on your 4th job decision.

I know that OS and FB have some decent properties that are not attained by FT.
I am arguing that a good portion of the ones you've outlined are either useless or untrue.

Let me summarize. Keep in mind -stares at Xen- this is for levels 123-150, ish.
[b]Facts that we agree on[/b]

Speed: FT
Range: FB > FT > OS
Mobility: OSFB
1v1 DPM: OSFB
1vMob DPM: FT

I'll give you mobility. But I don't think it's worth delaying HM for 10 levels. Maybe you do, it's a matter of preference.

The fastest way to max Overswing is by training with FT. I still believe that HM should take precedence over OS (after SS), and you believe that OS takes precedence over HM.

We on the same page here? We don't actually have that many points of contention. Our main disagreement is non-training situations and mobility. I don't find these to be a problem with FT. You do. In any case, they matter little.

Also, you're being quite nasty yourself.

@Xenjitsu:
@Maninae:

Your facts are so wrong there's no point arguing with you anymore. And yet, here I go.

[quote=Xenjitsu]"There are no situations that OS can not cover that FT can (the speed difference is negligible)" ...
"I'm saying the damage difference, not the raw attack speed. You should be smart enough to know what I mean ."[/quote]
You WERE talking about the speed difference. It's very clear.

[quote=Xenjitsu]With FT you are limited to just rushing into a corner and FT'ing. Doing anything else ends up being inefficient with FT.[/quote]
Funny how you see the fastest training method to be a problem.

[quote=Xenjitsu]What if more mobs spawn behind you too far? Nope.[/quote]
If more mobs spawn behind you, you go and get them and add them to your mob. You have to do the exact same thing with OSFB as with FT (the backward range on doubleswing isn't that great). You must be pretty biased to think that this problem only affects FT training.
In my personal experience training on the top platforms at Crockies and Bearwolves, you learn the spawn point of the monsters and you incorporate that into your positioning so that any new monster that spawns is within your attacking range.

[quote=Xenjitsu]What if HS is running out and you need to move your mob to the middle while still killing it? Nope.[/quote]
Then you get a better bishop.
Or you rush your mob with you. Final Charge hits a whole bunch of enemies. As a plus, it does more damage with SS.

[quote=Xenjitsu]What if you can't stack all the monsters together and other classes are attacking them, preventing you from rushing them together into FT range? Nothing you can do, just attack inefficiently. [/quote]
If you're getting KS'd by your party, find a better party. Hell, FT performs BETTER in this case, since it attacks faster than most other attacks in the game, you pull the mob's aggro and you're the one dishing out the KB. With FT, you have control over the mob even if lots of people are attacking it.

[quote=Xenjitsu]Top platform castle golems? Rushing them is harder, it'd be nice to have something that can gather them while doing damage. Bottom platform castle golems? HELL NO.[/quote]
What's wrong with you? What kind of 12X... even 14X... WHO trains at Castle Golems? NO ONE.

[quote=Xenjitsu]Not only does FT lose IMO in its intended arena (training)[/quote]
It doesn't.

[quote=Xenjitsu]but it completely fails at bossing. OSFB can hit 5 zak arms (zak is good exp at this level, even if only arms), FT can't even hit 2 layers of arms. If you need to dodge zak stun rocks, you're going to be still spamming FT while you get hit. There's no time to react and CS out of the way like you can with OSFB. You can't even clear all the zak mobs that might annoy your friends that are running with you.[/quote]
-First, I'll agree with you that OSFB is largely a wiser choice for bossing in most cases.
-Second, I'm very disappointed that I have to repeat myself yet again in that YOU DON'T HAVE OSFB MAXED UNTIL 140 AT THE EARLIEST. When you factor in your other bossing skills, High Mastery and Freeze Standing, YOU WON'T HAVE THESE TIL 160. Even if you skip SS.
So yes. At 160, OSFB is better to use on Bosses. Sure. Good luck getting to 160 without FT, you're sorely missing out.
-Third, I don't know anyone under 140 who regularly trains at Zak.
-Lastly, I'd like to inform you that Zak isn't the only boss in the game.

[quote=Xenjitsu]Bottom line: There are no situations that OS can not cover that FT can (the speed difference is negligible), and there are many, many situations that OSFB does cover and FT does not. [/quote]
So wrong it's sad. OS is subject to damage decay. FT is not. On mobs of any number (yes, even on mobs of 1, though here the difference is very little) FT is better than OSFB. On mobs of 2-8, FT > OS.
And, like I said earlier, if you choose to neglect the speed difference (FT speed is over 6fold that of OSFB) you're a funny guy.

[quote=Xenjitsu]Unless you are planning to pass the levels where it matters within 2 weeks, you should get OSFB. [/quote]
Here I am repeating myself again because you can't be bothered read my earlier posts.
With FT training at LHC maps, you zip right past 120 and 130 and even 140 in a matter of days, and you'll quickly reach a point where, as you say, it doesn't matter since both OSFB and FT will be maxed.

[quote=Xenjitsu]For this reason, FT can not be considered the Aran's main attack. It's a joke at bossing ( completely disregards the Aran's strength at bossing ), and at training it's really not that much better.[/quote]
For the reasons above, you're terribly mistaken. Also, "Aran's strength at bossing"? Arans suck at bossing. It's tragic.

[quote=Xenjitsu]Disclaimer: I use FT while training often. Despite this, I use OS 20% of the time on most LHC maps and OS 50% of the time at golems because there are situations that FT is just simply not viable.[/quote]
As I said before, you use FT 80% of the time while training and you have the luxury of having OSFB maxed. What does that say about levels 120-140 when OSFB isn't maxed?

[quote=Xenjitsu]I'm saying the damage difference, not the raw attack speed. You should be smart enough to know what I mean.[/quote]
It's pretty clear what you meant, you said "the speed difference is negligible". Such silliness. Really, you should edit that out of your original post, I'm sure lots of people are completely baffled by this error.

[quote=Xenjitsu] The DPS is definitely very close. Again, the damage difference is not that different. I know on a 1v1 target it is something like a difference of 80% damage in favor of OS (out of 1080% per second). The damage of FT on mobs therefore can't really be that much better because there is not a huge damage decay like before. [/quote]
http://www.southperry.net/showthread.php?t=44981 here's the math you must be referring to.
Here's an excerpt: "Therefore, on a single monster that cannot be Tossed, standalone FT DPS would be 1083%/s. In Comparison, maxed Overswing does 1061%/s ."
Even on one monster, FT does greater damage than OS. Add in more monsters, the more FT is favoured. Nice memory though, on the "1080%".

[quote] I said that the benefits of OS outside of training, as well as some of them inside training are too good to pass up. I am not sticking to the old past, because honestly, I disliked only using one move. I welcomed Chaos because it gave me new ways to train. However, the game is simply not fun if you only have FT because its scope of usefulness is so specific. It is very good at what it does (pure DPS), but it lacks the mobility, range (big one), bossing-ability of OS. [/quote]
I agree with you to some extent here, but as I said above, FT does have one limited use and that's training DPS. To me, training DPS is a huge part of the game. Maybe it isn't for you. But this topic is about which does more damage. The answer is FT.
Also, the OS benefits you refer to are definitely not worth 20 levels of dumping 60 SP, at least, not until after you have a reliable training skill to fall back on (maxed SS).

Oh, and...

I just logged into the game and went to Aqua, tested the range of OS and FT at goby houses.

Overswing has a shorter horizontal range than FT.

Breaking news.
[b]FT HAS A LONGER RANGE THAN OVERSWING.[/b]

This puts a pretty big dent in your "versatility" arguments.
Also, regarding versatility and non-training situations, a single FT can kill some low-level mobs that you can't one-shot with a regular attack (i.e. in lower level monsters, using FT once to kill them is noticeably faster than using Attack-Double Swing once.) Depends on how many hits it takes for each skill, really. You can't say that OS is better for killing lower level monsters in every situation.

You guys keep downplaying the DPS boost. Idk why. On 1v1, FT is slightly higher but not noticably. On mobs of 8 FT does 1.33-fold increased DPS.

And I can't stress this enough. SS takes 3 levels to max. OSFB takes 20 levels to max.

Early FT allows you to reach your training damage output much faster and earlier.

I'm saying the damage difference, not the raw attack speed. You should be smart enough to know what I mean . The DPS is definitely very close. Again, the damage difference is not that different. I know on a 1v1 target it is something like a difference of 80% damage in favor of OS (out of 1080% per second). The damage of FT on mobs therefore can't really be that much better because there is not a huge damage decay like before.

You didn't even read my posts did you? I said that the benefits of OS outside of training, as well as some of them inside training are too good to pass up. I am not sticking to the old past, because honestly, I disliked only using one move. I welcomed Chaos because it gave me new ways to train. However, the game is simply not fun if you only have FT because its scope of usefulness is so specific. It is very good at what it does (pure DPS), but it lacks the mobility, range (big one), bossing-ability of OS.

You are really bad at arguing . You disregarded my entire post really to nitpick irrelevant points. I gave you the benefits of FT as well as the benefits of OS, and I concluded that the benefits of OS far outweigh those of FT overall; that was my whole post, yet you accuse me of seeing the benefits of FT and discarding it like I'm dumb.

edit: Also, to explain why I think higher level arans should use FT and lower level arans don't really need it: it's just simply because lower levels kill much slower. If you kill slower, there's a larger chance more mobs spawn and you need to get out of your FT corner to get HS or grab more mobs across the map. In this case, mobility and range is even more important than before. If you kill the mobs quickly, then it's unlikely new mobs will spawn and you will need to move around because they will be dead soon after.

@Maninae:
I went from 120 to 149 in 2 days of hard training using FT at glitched LHC maps. And yes, now I have OSFB, and yes I use OSFB at bosses (but not while training, since I'm never facing a monster 1v1 when I train).
Would have taken at least week of hard training using unmaxed OSFB, and that's not factoring in the arduous search for skill books (no OS20 or 30 in Khaini for a few days was a factor in me trying out FT build).

If someone wants to level slowly that's up to them, but I see people crippling other new 4th job Aran's by imposing upon them the irrational desire for a 60-SP attack that they must skill right away.
Why is that?
See below:

[quote=xenjitsu]the attacking speed difference between OSFB and FT is negligible.[/quote]
roflmao
You're killing me. Stop please.
No one should bother to continue reading after that.
OSFB takes 2.1s to execute, while FT takes 0.33s. FT is over 6 times faster than OSFB. Hardly "negligible".

[quote=xenjitsu] I use FT while training often. Despite this, I use OS 20% of the time on most LHC maps and OS 50% of the time at golems because there are situations that FT is just simply not viable.[/quote]
So 80% of your attacking at LHC is FT. And you have MAX OSFB. How do you expect a level 123 Aran to train? Clearly they're should be maxing 10 SP in SS so that they can use the maxed out training skill FT 80% of the time or more.

Why is it that high level Arans, who see the immense training benefits of FT, insist that FT is not worth using? Is it because they went through hell at 120-140 with unmaxed attacking skills and they want others to suffer the same way?

Here's what I think: Get OSFB first.

The main reasons are because 1) The damage difference isn't as great as people make it out to be 2) OSFB is infinitely more versatile

1) Obviously FT wins theoretically. I completely disregard the argument that it's not practical because people can't spam for too long (with practice, it's easy). However, you can not move while FT'ing, so you often can't drag more mobs into your big mob, which especially hurts if you do not kill quickly. This is only augmented on glitched maps where additional mobs are always spawning and you are stuck FT'ing a corner because it has no range to draw the other mob in efficiently.

2) This leads to the other point, OSFB is way more versatile. With FT you are limited to just rushing into a corner and FT'ing. Doing anything else ends up being inefficient with FT. What if more mobs spawn behind you too far? Nope. What if HS is running out and you need to move your mob to the middle while still killing it? Nope. What if you can't stack all the monsters together and other classes are attacking them, preventing you from rushing them together into FT range? Nothing you can do, just attack inefficiently. Top platform castle golems? Rushing them is harder, it'd be nice to have something that can gather them while doing damage. Bottom platform castle golems? HELL NO.

Not only does FT lose IMO in its intended arena (training), but it completely fails at bossing. OSFB can hit 5 zak arms (zak is good exp at this level, even if only arms), FT can't even hit 2 layers of arms. If you need to dodge zak stun rocks, you're going to be still spamming FT while you get hit. There's no time to react and CS out of the way like you can with OSFB. You can't even clear all the zak mobs that might annoy your friends that are running with you.

Bottom line: There are no situations that OS can not cover that FT can (the speed difference is negligible), and there are many, many situations that OSFB does cover and FT does not. Unless you are planning to pass the levels where it matters within 2 weeks, you should get OSFB. For this reason, FT can not be considered the Aran's main attack. It's a joke at bossing ( completely disregards the Aran's strength at bossing ), and at training it's really not that much better.

Disclaimer: I use FT while training often. Despite this, I use OS 20% of the time on most LHC maps and OS 50% of the time at golems because there are situations that FT is just simply not viable.

@Maninae:

I could argue currently, FT is Aran's main attack (Overswing is not).
Whatever people define as "main" is arbitrary. If you use FT to train at LHC, FT is your "main" attack. People tend to cling to the past glory of old skills, and it's quite irrational. I see it in the DK forums. I go there on a regular basis to remind everyone that buster should be skipped in favor of ER, since buster has no use (fury is better EVEN ON 1V1, and both get replaced by DI at 120). And yet, people still max Buster and leave ER unmaxed because they cling irrationally to the former glory of DK's [b]"main"[/b] skill.

Where do you get "between 120 and 160" from? Even with SS maxed early, you can have max OS and HM by 143, with one point in FB.
With your build (which I assume leaves SS at 1), you'll have max OS and HM by 140.
And no, personally, I'm not going to boss or be in any 1v1 situations between 120 and 140. EVEN IF I was so inclined, it wouldn't be a problem to max OS 3 levels later than an OS-first build, considering the improved training speed.

FS and FB would also be helpful at bosses. That's another 20 levels. So even with your build, you've only finished your bossing skills by 160 too.

The speed of max FT allows you to go from 123 to 143 in much less time than it does using unmaxed OS as your main skill all the way up to 140.

My point is that even if you desperately want max OS ASAP, it's better to get SS first to accellerate your training speed dramatically from 123-150, which will allow you get the SP to max OS faster.

"Signature" attack... I point you in the direction of Bishops. Genesis is their "signature" attack, and frankly they can do without it. The "signature" attack of WH is Wild Arrow Blast, and yet most WH know that the optimal build is to max Sonic Roar first for mobbing. The "signature" attacks of Paladins are ACB or Blast. ACB is generally maxed early, but it can be a very attractive build to get early max HH for a quicker way to 140-150, especially with the new high-spawn glitched LHC maps.

I point you toward DKs again. Ask in the DK forum, you'll get mixed answers. Everyone over 120 says to leave Buster unmaxed (at 11). And yet lots of new Dark Knights have this preconception that Buster is amazing (when in reality it pales in comparison to Fury and later DI), and they max it, and come 120 they think back and say "well, I only really used Fury since it's a superior training skill... why did I max buster?".

Classes evolve. Some skills get better, sometimes new training methods are discovered. OSFB is pretty awesome, and fairly easy to use. If you love it that much, the easiest way to get it is to use FT's superior training speed to get into bossing levels more quickly.

In this respect, I think the topic title is misleading. I don't believe that anyone should consider Sudden Strike "versus" Overswing. They're complementary skills. You use SS training to get to OS faster (it just so happens that, until Legend, FT remains a far superior skill on large mobs). OSFB is a big SP investment, and it's tough and slow to level it up.

FT is like kindling. You don't use it to keep warm, you use it to start a bigger fire. It's hard to start a fire with just heavy lumber.

[quote=Maninae]Well, lets compare.
10 SP takes 3 levels; you will have maxed it by 123 (+3 upon adv.)- only giving you a 50% bonus on FT. What will you do with the rest of your points? Overswing is just as good of an attack, and is multipurpose for mobbing and solo, and uses significantly less MP. Yes, FT spam will be slightly faster training, but Overswing and FB will retain its use in other situations such as bossing or whatnot.
I suppose you could always pump points into Freeze Standing or MW or HM... but I don't think those are as important as Overswing. In any case, it is our main attack and is an all-around good skill to have - all SS does is provide additional damage to FT and FC; lv1 will suffice for activation.[/quote]

You're completely missing my point.
If you use FT spam to get from 120-160 (the fastest way), then you need to max SS first, then HM second. This increases the damage output you get from FT. If you don't feel the completely irrational need to level Overswing immediately after, you can get a nice level of Freeze Standing before you ever even need Overswing.

Also, 50% bonus is huge in an attack that can be used over 3 times per second.

@Maninae: The topic at hand is comparing SSFT with Overswing. I think we're still on topic.
I've been told enough times (though I haven't seen the numbers) that on 1v1, OSFB is better than FT. I believe it.

The main issue I have with OSFB is that it takes 60SP to master, while SS takes 10SP. The fact remains that FT spam at LHC mobs is the fastest training from 120-160+, provided that you figure out a way to reliably spam it, and it retains its usefulness on larger mobs all the way up to 200.

[quote=Maninae]@phoenix23:
I just typed a whole essay, just for you, and Basil froze on me >.> So heres a summary.

I agree, FT is better at mobbing. But only at LHC, when youre mobbing for extended periods of time, without movement. If youre killing Kentauruses, you would need to move around constantly. OSFB would be a better choice here; FT needs 2-3 hits to kill them depending on your damage, and you would have to wait for the mobs to fall back down to a reasonable height before attacking with FT again - then scoot forward some distance to reach the Kents behind. One sequence of Hit,Double,Triple,FB, while albeit slower, requires only to be used once. Its is strong enough and far-reaching enough to eliminate all the mobs without exception and also have a wide enough range that you do not have to constantly move forward to attack - attack once, more or less the whole group of Kents are gone. Move on.

A video would be nice, Youtube please. Also, I'll need some form of a guarantee that you did not do 24038332 attempts in order to perfect a 3minute clip.
I'm not doubting your ability, but the practicality of doing this for training. Just so we are clear; the video reference was to emphasize my point that it is much more efficient to just use OSFB and be done with it rather than going through the trouble of Tossing several times.

I'm 100% sure FB has a greater vertical and horizontal range than FT. OS eh, more or less - I do know that FT has an impressive range, I just don't think that it compares with OS and definitely not with FB.

By flexibility, i meant something along the lines of simplicity and ease of use as you can see from my following (also bad... lol) explanation. Sorry for my atrocious wording. QQ
. .
. In summary of my summary, OSFB for 1v1 and common monsters, FT for LHC mobbing DPS.[/quote]

A few more points.

1. It's actually possible to jump while spamming FT. I haven't practiced it on the keyboard but I can work it into my controller macro. It's pretty sweet, you no longer have to worry about knocking up monsters (just like using protection!). I'm not sure why you use Kents as an example... really no one I know trains at Kents after 120
2. For me to prove I'm only using one take, we'd have to communicate via live video, something I'm not sure we're both prepared to do. In any case, it wouldn't be happening until next weekend (I have an exam Wednesday and a big 30min presentation Thursday). Idk why trust is in such short supply nowadays ._.
3. I still think that FT has a horizontal range greater than or equal to OS -- but I can't for the life of me find any numerical values. See if you have more luck than me.

Though, I'm glad you (provisionally) see the value of FT for LHC mobbing.

Final Toss would be more Spam DPM in my opinion.

The speed with Final Toss is ridiculous then compared to overswing.

Even with a a normal polearm, the fast pace for Final Toss, can easily cover the damage output by Overswing.

However, if your doing like 999,999 per final toss, and overswing, then no doubt Final toss. Just have to keep spamming and keep the momentum going to get the maximum output.

Smashing buttons can be annoying and hurt your fingers. I wish we could just hold down the key to do the combo rather then taking a hammer to smash the keys.

[quote=Maninae]Guys stop it. >.>
FT Is only better occasionally at LHC mobbing, and in theory. [/quote]
I am in complete disagreement. It is better in nearly every case at LHC mobbing. Allow me to explain.
[quote=Maninae]Firstly, you can have to best control in the world, I still doubt you are going to constantly perform FT successfully. [/quote]
I will gladly make a video of me performing Final Toss perfectly for 3 whole minutes. I will have to move and repot occasionally.
It's not difficult at all, and I can do it in one take. [Woah, I just saw in the next sentence you're requesting a video. See below.]

[quote=Maninae]OSFB is more consistent; you wont accidentally activate judgment and lose your combo, go through portals, miss a key and start have your char start ducking down awkwardly, etc. You can prove me wrong by showing me a video of you doing FT for 5min, no stopping. [/quote]
As I said above, I will gladly. 5 minutes is a bit excessive, I'll do three. How would you like me to present the video? On Youtube? Could you please suggest an app for capturing video? If not I'll just have to use my phone to show you my screen. This might be advantageous, though, since I could also show you my hand position.
PM me if you're serious about this request. I'm willing to put in the work to prove my point.

[quote=Maninae]Secondly, on any mobs except those classified as Bosses, the monsters will be tossed in the air. Why does this matter?[/quote] It doesn't. If you're not training at LHC, you obviously don't care about how effective your character is, and you may as well be using Rolling Spin to train.

[quote=Maninae]Third, minor point: OSFB has a greater range than FT, and is more flexible in that you can stop mid-sequence of the swings. For example, I just use double swing for weaker mobs; that usually finishes them off. When for FT, you have to twist your right hand sideways and go Down Up Ctr, a simple Ctr Ctr will do.[/quote]

Can you please provide the range numbers for OS? I know that FB has a greater vertical range than FT, but I am fairly sure FT has roughtly the same horizontal range as OS and maybe even OSFB.

And you can't possibly argue that a 0.33s attack is less flexible.

Haven't tried it yet, but I'm at my regular Crocky's channel doing regular training, and after thinking about it... there is no situation in which I'd be attacking a single monster near the portal. If there's only 1 monster near the portal I usually just rush him across the map picking up any stragglers, then I use FT on the mob without standing in the portal (unarguably better against large mobs).

Though our (pointless) argument is still interesting.

My range is 12367~13741
No buffs no combo.

I'm not that decked out. Nothing worth mentioning except perfect PSB, 3L epic, haven't finished cubing it.
I have only like 19% str. Clean spiegalmann, clean evolving belt. 6 atk gloves.
And yet I outdamage most 170 Arans because I use FT, and they're all like "omg how are you hitting so fast and so high?"

I see, you're electing not to use FB. That's interesting. I'll try using that. Let me get out my timer, I'll get back to you.

[quote=PcPls123]Um Im pretty sure you can since at lhc bottom mobs (oops meant of 1 monster) if you choose to do FT+BP (especially with no fs) at portals you may end up outside of the room. So you can take your rofl and learn to play your aran like me, a pro =p Oh yeah and I didn't mess up I did mean FS since you dont want to move around, you want fs to keep you in place so bp does consistent dmg.[/quote]

Again, you're trying to factor in FS in one scenario but not in the other.

BP+FS+FT > BP+FS+OSFB, even in 1v1.

You can stand in the mob with FT and FS without worrying about the portal. At LHC1 and LHC5, if you stand right in the mob in the corner and you do happen to get knocked back, you still won't be in the portal.

What's more, you can have FS and SS and HM maxed by level 143.
To max FS and HM and OS and FB you'd need to be level 161.

I expect better from a highlevel Aran like you.

@PcPls123 You mean...

BP+OS+FB vs. BP+FT on 1v1.

Rofl you can't factor in Body Pressure on one skill without also factoring it on the other.

BP+FT > BP+OS+FB

[quote=Aether101]If at LHC, final toss for 2+ mobs at a time. otherwise use overswing~final blow[/quote]

In current version of maple, even on mobs of 1, at LHC, FT kills faster than OSFB.
I have both maxed and I've tested it several times, as have many of my 160+ Aran contacts.

If at LHC, final toss for 2+ mobs at a time. otherwise use overswing~final blow

WH Mine hack > Keybind
Always has been, always will be.

@Forevahalone: Doesn't seem like you have an Aran either.

[quote=Forevahalone]For the record, Keybinding is better[/quote]

For the record, WH Mine hack is better

Not in the slightest.
Here, have a carrot for that high horse you're sitting on.

[quote=phoenix23]@AckarRed: In Khaini every map is glitched. Also, you must be quite a noob to insinuate that I keybind.

@PcPls123: DPS isn't from me it's from FT.[/quote]

Is macro the same as keybind? I forgot.

Just like there's a reason why people still get Buster on DKs?

It's archaic thinking that limits our potential.

@AckarRed: In Khaini every map is glitched. Also, you must be quite a noob to insinuate that I keybind.

@PcPls123: DPS isn't from me it's from FT.

[quote=phoenix23]@ FT vs OSFB

Why waste 60 SP when you can spend 10 points on Sudden Strike?
If you're not skilled enough to spam Final Toss you should practice. It's not difficult. If you're lazy and smart, you could just program a keyboard macro.

They're called SKILLS. The better you execute them, the better your DPS should be.

People argue that OSFB is better 1v1. I argue that you shouldn't ever really be hitting 1 enemy. Aran's aren't very good at 1v1 anyway. Their strength is mobbing. Play to that strength. At a glitch LHC map (where everyone who is anyone trains) you'd be hard-pressed to find a single enemy to hit.

After legend and union, FB gets buffed and so does Sudden Strike. The practicality is tough to compare, since our attack range was increased for both skills.
After legend, damage decay is reduced. This is good for OSFB.
After union, damage decay is removed. This is good for OSFB.
After union, we get FA and AFA. This is good for the faster attack (FT).

Really, they're both great. Currently, it's much more effective and efficient to max Sudden Strike first.

IF... you train with SE a lot (higher crit rate), SE benefits FT more than it does OSFB because FB will always crit. With SE, I have like a 75% crit rate. Combined with FT's fast attack, it literally looks like a 8-mob red Hurricane number stream.

IF... you train with CO a lot (increases skill levels), CO benefits OSFB more than it does FT because OS and FB are 4th job skills and their levels get increased to 32. While level 12 Sudden Strike is good, Final Toss doesn't increase in level (because it's a 3rd job skill).

Problem spamming final toss? If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen.[/quote]

I don't train on glitched maps, and I don't keybind.

For me, I'll just stick to my own style and use Overswing. I don't like using Final Toss much, nor do I like how to spam it.

Prepare to derp big time while trying to spam FT. You'll end up going into way too many portals accidently at LHC

I was at Crocky's today. I asked to join a high level party. They said I could join for a few minutes while their friend was on his way.

I found a mob of 8 Crocky's. I buffed up and FT'd the whole mob. Regular old training for me. Mob goes down in 10-15 seconds.

"HOLY SHEET @ ARAN"
"Wow its like hurricane"
"... i dint no arans could do that!"

My party praised my DPS. One of them thought I was hacking, but the others corrected him and clarified that FT was spammable in 4th job.

Oh and I have like 10% str.

Anyway, they kept me in their party.

oh god not this thread again

@ FT vs OSFB

Why waste 60 SP when you can spend 10 points on Sudden Strike?
If you're not skilled enough to spam Final Toss you should practice. It's not difficult. If you're lazy and smart, you could just program a keyboard macro.

They're called SKILLS. The better you execute them, the better your DPS should be.

People argue that OSFB is better 1v1. I argue that you shouldn't ever really be hitting 1 enemy. Aran's aren't very good at 1v1 anyway. Their strength is mobbing. Play to that strength. At a glitch LHC map (where everyone who is anyone trains) you'd be hard-pressed to find a single enemy to hit.

After legend and union, FB gets buffed and so does Sudden Strike. The practicality is tough to compare, since our attack range was increased for both skills.
After legend, damage decay is reduced. This is good for OSFB.
After union, damage decay is removed. This is good for OSFB.
After union, we get FA and AFA. This is good for the faster attack (FT).

Really, they're both great. Currently, it's much more effective and efficient to max Sudden Strike first.

IF... you train with SE a lot (higher crit rate), SE benefits FT more than it does OSFB because FB will always crit. With SE, I have like a 75% crit rate. Combined with FT's fast attack, it literally looks like a 8-mob red Hurricane number stream.

IF... you train with CO a lot (increases skill levels), CO benefits OSFB more than it does FT because OS and FB are 4th job skills and their levels get increased to 32. While level 12 Sudden Strike is good, Final Toss doesn't increase in level (because it's a 3rd job skill).

Problem spamming final toss? If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen.

use the final toss on 3 or more mobs, overswing win for 1 vs 1

in union patch i heard something like that on southperry "lol why waste 60SP when you can spend 10 poinst on sudden strike" the gap from toss spam got wider apparently
http://www.southperry.net/showthread.php?t=50230 post #13

@hyperwing: After the union patch, yes.

Final toss is stronger on 2+ monsters and overswing on one.

"For the record, Overswing + Final Blow is stronger than Final Toss when Overswing is maxed and Final Blow is 20~25, depending on how much combo you have. Final Toss is always stronger on more than one monster. The difference is around 60%/s."
~JoeTang

[url=http://www.southperry.net/showthread.php?t=46313]source[/url]

However it's my personal opinion that after you get OS and FB to a decent level, you should just do that for 1v1 because it's easier to execute and the difference between the two is very minimal. Doing Final Toss repeatedly is kind of hard to do perfectly (for example you might sometimes accidentally use judgement) and also tiring/less mana efficient.