General

shads are better end thread

@dominion: I think for environmental hazards it doesn't seem to work.

@lolitstom @phil495 also I don't recall if smokescreen helps on the debuff mobs in the first stage but it might, as well as some other attacks (falling objects, electricity..).

@dominion: oh nice , that is pretty epic then. That's actually really good for Dual Blades. yep I would concede that situationally a super iframe is far better in lotus

@lolitstom confirming that CoH does work on stage 1 lotus laser (and all of his attacks actually), I use it right when I go in since sometimes the laser can start right at the spawn.

@OP Shad will do you better DPS until you hit around 35-40m with phantom blow I believe (which can be less than 2m2m range with the right buffs/%boss IIRC). And then you're better off as DB until you start hitting like 60m lines with midnight carnival (because its so slow). Though someone should check my possibly outdated or incorrect numbers

All about funding

yea, what @wumbo said, I also use it at von bon when it's about to start doing earthquakes, to tank the very first earthquake so that I don't die when not paying attention. I also use it at blue pierre, no flame dmg/seal/reverse (if I have no 100% resistance). @ vellum, yea too much tail spam, can't heal fast enough.

and @ ursus, smokescreen prevents 1 hit ko by bombs, it will "miss" you & party members, dark sight has no effect
@ lotus, doesn't work against laser, not sure if it has any other use since I haven't done serious lotus runs

@phil495: Smoke screen does work in vellum and von bon, its just hard to utilize it in vellum cause pets don't always heal right away. In von bon i'd be able to get in like a minute worth of pure dps without having to dodge anything.

@phil495: oh thats pretty cool. For jump quest you can do the same with bstep albiet more difficult because of its smaller interval. Smokescreen for certain works ok the attacks listed. You clearly haven't played a shadower enough. Judging by your battle statistic damage its actually questionable you would have made a serious attempt at chaos vellum.

Also well aware of the odd hp trick but if you have blue Pierre following you and you aren't in ds youre dead if your pet autopot lags. With smoke you won't die to that combination.

@chickens0up thoughts ?

@lolitstom: Smokescreen does not work on Von Bon or Vellum. I've recently tried that this week already, and I've never really seen any videos of shadowers ever utilizing smokescreen except sometimes rarely for the crit dmg. Red clown's ko is already avoidable by having odd hp. Also if Ursus's bombs work like empress or gollux's explosions, then you can just dark sight through it, but I wouldn't know haven't tried Ursus yet. Lotus's laser you'll still want to avoid anyway.

CoH works on falling objects, flying objects in jump quests, and, Vellum's laser. So it'll most likely work on Lotus.

@lolitstom: @phil495: i would also like to mention that shadowers have bstab with has iframes (u need good control/timing to utilize that tho)

@phil495: Didn't I just give you an example? Chaos vellum tails are one hit ko attacks, yet they get reduced by smokescreen to make them survivable. Same applies to Vonbon orb, jump, clown hammer smash, queen hearts and claws. In ursus you can use smokescreen to tank bombs, (though you could also just have party members near you).

Are you absolutely certain that CoH makes you invulnerable to vellum laser and lotus lasers or even meteors? Because those things are treated as obstacle type attacks rather than conventional % hp attacks.

@lolitstom: It's full immunity against everything from % hp dmg to abnormal status to anything that can harm you in any way. Yes, coh has a 45 second cd. The cd doesn't bother me much because I'm not reckless. It's helpful in those times where you make a mistake or get caught in something you can't get out of. As for final cut, I said if the timing was right. It's situational, but can still be useful whether you decide to use it off cd or wait until vellum gets out of the ground. It's still 3 seconds of immunity.

Smokescreen actually isn't very useful for surviving anything. I've never found any % hp dmg it can actually reduce. Any one shots that it'd be useful for at least.

@phil495: Oh, I was not aware of the full invulnerability applying to everything. Does this include chaos vellum laser or lotus laser or magnus meteors? And isn't CoH like 45 second cooldown?

"way better than anything shadowers have to offer for survivability" hmmm try smokescreen with autopot in chaos vellum, see how much the tail spam kills you. Its pretty much 60 seconds of laughing at tails if you have decent ping. And what of Arkarium, unless you get lucky and not have him spam his map break attack, CoH is only going to be useful for the first one... and I highly doubt most DB's not casting final cut at the start.

It's all situational really.

[url=http://prntscr.com/9z3851]Dual Blade Battle Analysis[/url]
[url=http://prntscr.com/9z0tft]Shadower Battle Analysis[/url]

A few things to note. Before I had decent SI the difference was a bit larger, so shadower benefits more from capping attack speed than dual blades do. I was using the wrong piece of gear and was missing about 90k range in the screenshot of the dual blade. And it was 74% vs 94% crit rate. For most bosses dual blades would have 100% up time for 100% crit rate. Other bosses it's up 50-75% of the time.

In my opinion funding really doesn't matter between the two classes until the point where dual blades start hitting cap and shadowers can still improve. The only real difference in funding is scrolling/buying a katara vs shield. Otherwise it's just comparing dpm. And for reboot it's just a matter of potential in which there's no difference.

Shadowers may look more appealing and stronger, but stronger skills and better visual buffs isn't everything. Shadowers have +25% dmg from flip the coin(same as total/boss % dmg) and +25% final skill damage to all skills. Dual Blades have +60% final damage which now has 100% up time with sudden raid reducing its cd by 20%, and asura an op hyper skill.

Bossing with damage aside. Shadowers are tankier early on, but it won't matter in the end. Majority of high end bosses do % hp dmg. And for non % hp dmg dual blades will just dodge it 90% of the time. Shadowers most of the time won't get knocked back by Magnus while using assassinate. While dual blades can utilize chains of hell and sometimes final cut if the timing is right. Both these skills give you 3 seconds of full immunity to everything after use which is way better than anything shadowers have to offer for survivability.

Stop focusing on damage and play the dang game. Both are my two favorite classes. Here's how you decide: do you like fast hits and more variety? Or do you like somewhat slow but huge numbers and less variety? If you answered yes for the first go DB, else go shadower. You can always play both. I will say that at 500k range shadower is a better option, at 700k range DB gets interesting and cool.

@antisenpai: Not sure but this may serve as data. Post Reboot, with assassinate my (somewhat) capping shadower (sometimes I see 116m) takes about 101 seconds for hellux (jaw, eye, gem).

@chaosh: Honestly, you wont understand unless you play them. You can throw all the numbers and "facts" at me, but you'll never get it.

@antisenpai: Well, I was using the DPM chart as evidence that, at least according to whoever did the math, Dual Blades % will still end up beating Shadowers %, despite looking smaller at first glance. I suppose I should stop being lazy and try doing some math myself.

Now, if I understand correctly, Assassinate is a two part skill, the first part is a 3x672% attack with a base cast delay of 990 ms and a second part is a 2x700% (recent change - Also, I was confused by why the hell the 'big hit' was weaked than the rest) with a base cast delay of 660 ms (which explains why the hell it's weaker, it's also faster). At Fastest(0) speed and taking into consideration Shadow Partner, Shadowers hit a total of 5464.36%/s, not taking into consideration Total Damage, Boss Damage, Critical and etc, since that depends on the Shadowers equipment and hyper stats.

Dual Blades are much easier to understand, Phantom Blow hits 240%x7 (with the extra strike hyper) at a base cast delay of 810 ms, Final Cut is a 60% final damage boost (multiplicative with everything else), 66,6% uptime without buff duration. So, with Final Cut up two thirds of the time, Mirror Image and at Fastest(0), Dual Blades reaches 5973.33%/s. Even without trying (no buff duration, no Blade Clone, no Asura, no Advanced Dark Sight, no Flashbang...), Dual Blades will beat Shadowers by a large margin, even if they had the same range (which is irrealistic).

Of course, when capping, Shadower will beat Dual Blade, but that's the point, Dual Blades are stronger, but Shadowers are tankier, better mobbers and have a greater potential when funding. Capping Midnight Carnival with Shadow Partner will outdamage capping Bowmasters and Wild Hunters, capping Meso Explosion used to be (before the cooldown) x4 times that (assuming unlimited coins somehow), there is no denying at uber-high funding, Shadowers will beat Dual Blades, but until them, Dual Blades are significantly stronger.

the most recent dps chart that was linked earlier indicates that DBs are ahead of Shads. Now as to is that chart accurate, what are the condition, what is the funding of each toon- I have no idea you would have to ask the creator.

However if we are to believe the validity of the chart then DBs out do shads dps wise.

@chaosh: You must have never played Shadower and Dual Blade before, play both till 160ish and you'll understand why people say Shadower is the better opinion with low/mid funds (Where most players are) where Dual blade does beat Shadower is with high funding, but then with god tier funding Shadower is actually one of the top contenders for best class damage wise due to it being able to hit over 100mil lines with an attack that does cap lines and an be paired up with a skill that hits as fast (faster?) than hurricane skills.

Just cause Dual Blade has a second weapon with lots of attack does not change the fact that the skills themself are low % damage. Dual blade's main attacking skill (Phantom Blow) has 200% attack without hypers, where as Shadower's main attack and bossing attack have well over 600% damage, so just cause Dual blade has a Katara is does not change the fact it's weak as hell.

Dual Blader is a better bosser in every way possible. shads are slow af. Shads will not be able to out dps a Db, and shad flip a coin is annoying to always buff comapred to cool db final cut

Lmao this was fun.

I'm actually surprised so many people think Shadowers are superior to Dual Blade, when at first glance, Dual Blades are upgraded Shadowers. Kataras are basically shields that can be scrolled and starforced as weapons, even the weakest kataras are stronger than the godliest Dragon Khanjar, so Dual Blades range (and consequently, damage) is much higer than you would expect, specially on DPS charts/calculations, since that type of thing isn't taken into consideration. Of course, if Dual Blades position in DPS charts are super low, then the fact they have an inflated range won't make a difference, right?

Well, DPS charts are not absolutely reliable for a number of reasons (heck, I just said Dual Blades are stronger than they appear on the charts, didn't I?) and the [url=https://itzdarkvoid.wordpress.com/2015/09/09/kms-v-1-2-240-boss-dpm-chart/]most recent one[/url] doesn't contain much information on how it was calculated; that being said, Dual Blades rank higher than Shadowers, so it does seem that Shadowers are simply outclassed in terms of bossing. If someone has a more in depth analysis, please post it.

@jaytokyo Sadly people like the TS are dumb and dont realise that. Goes to many ppl.
Do as one of the poster said and change and test it out yourself. For christ sake -_-

Dont rely on other ppls opinions zzz

@lolitstom: dualblades now have 100% stance. 90% from thorns and 10% from hyper

This kinds of questions are all based around your funding.

@lolitstom: I'd rather not cause I would have to spend time switching back again and buying books lol. I'd rather have caculations from people. The chart may not contain all the details. Not sure if they factor in shad's hyper which is useful for bossing as well, but I think ill stick to shads cause of nostalgic and just the way they are.

Tbh, you could go to some kms dps/dpm or hit per second chart and go by that judgement but I think you are relying on other people's opinions, calculations and assumptions.

Instead, use the job advance coin in the current reboot store and test it out for yourself. Frankly speaking, it just "feels" better to boss on a shadower rather than a dual blade. You are essentially an wall against magnus due to super stance from first hit assassinate.

@ihuntbooty i thought fc was a 60% increase to shads 25% increase fotc?

shadower is a better bosser in every way possible. db have to stay up close and personal. dual blades will not be able to out dps a shad, and shad flip a coin is equivalent to db final cut