General

[quote=Rtyu]Tell me this evidence, because I do not see it.[/quote]

Take a look at all of my other posts. I cite real life historical events, I cite the common thinkings of the community, and I cite theoretical events. What do you have? All you can come up with is some gibberish about how you automatically won the debate and no facts to support such a claim.

@Rtyu: I've provided ample evidence for everything I've stated. You, on the other hand, have not.

@Rtyu: Your lack of coherent arguments and erroneous assumptions caused me to type it.

[quote=Rtyu]@FrannehR: That went in one ear and out the other

Also, watch out, because blowing a little air on the fire may feed its fervor.[/quote]

You're terrible at debating. Please never do it again.

Wow this was quite the debate! I enjoyed reading it.

[quote=Rtyu]I've already showed how and you can't accept the truth. You're in denial.[/quote]

That's because your "truth" is based on logical fallacies. Try again.

[quote=Rtyu]@GazimoEnthra: I know people that do not like swearing.[/quote]

People that you know =/= the entire community.

[quote=Rtyu]Maybe Tiger wasn't actually banned for swearing, but that hearsay shows people understand swearing is against the ToS.[/quote]

So what? Like I have said, ToS =/= reality. You're basing your entire argument off of idiotic and baseless arguments.

[quote=Rtyu]I don't have to prove anything since it is illegal as defined by the ToS, and swearing in itself is foul, taboo language.[/quote]

Stupid argument. Come up with something with substance.

[quote=Rtyu]I'm sorry, but you guys are trying too hard and getting no results. [/quote]

Everything they are saying is a valid counterargument to your weak claims. You are terrible at debates.

Anyways, you are getting extremely off topic right now. Either address

[quote=MrTouchnGo]I welcome anyone to try to show how having an illegitimate IGN or swearing in-game makes you as bad and as game-damaging as a hacker/duper.[/quote]

or leave. I'm not here to argue about facts.

Hackers are bad, they have already mass influenced 99% of Maplers many years ago. There is no original legitness, only those ugly nx hoz that preach it like a religion.

@Rtyu: Actually, saying you don't care anymore is the self-brainwashed form of saying "I have nothing left to argue with." Unless your years of psychology experience can prove me wrong, that is. I only have 6 years of experience and a masters, after all.

^I'm done with this guy. He's a lost case.

@Rtyu: Is that what you say when you have nothing to argue with?

@Rtyu: You do not know, because you are wrong. How can you say you are right when you are wrong?

@Rytu: If this was court, you'd be thrown out by the judge by now due to your ludicrous statements.

You really don't understand or have the propensity to conveniently ignore that some things are worse than others. Let's take for instance the U.S. government. As a citizen you are required to follow the rules just as you would be required to follow the TOS playing maplestory. But in reality, laws as trivial as 'no jaywalking', for instance, aren't in the same class as laws against violent acts. First off, people jaywalk all the time. Sure, in some rare cases idiot officers have fined people for jaywalking before when no one's health was on the line (do those officers have the same mindset as you, in that law is absolute, so one thing can't be worse than the other? Maybe. This skewed sense, or lack of it, can easily be an intrusion on human rights in the officers' case).

Getting back to maple, just because I imply it is easier to gain money from taking advantage of duped items, that doesn't mean it is the right way to play. On the contrary, it is the cowardly and selfish way to play. Getting back to swearing versus hacking, swearing incites negative emotions, and hacking incites negative emotions. Swearing does nothing other than incite negative emotions, hacking also ruins the economy, ruins the game's servers, ruins the game's security, and ruins far more than mere emotions. That alone trumps your argument whether or not objectivity, subjectivity, or anything else is involved.

[quote=Rtyu]@MrTouchnGo:

Tiger was banned for swearing, and I was once kicked from a guild for swearing. Many people just don't like swearing. Also, there is a curse filter. You now cannot prove no one has been banned or punished before, or that a lot of the community finds swearing taboo.

If anything, this deserves "LMAOOOO." Clearly, you cannot say this because you haven't proven I have a lack of logic.[/quote]

The community does not find swearing taboo. I have met more players than are currently playing in Bera, and none have had a problem with swearing.
#MOLO.

[quote=Rtyu]Tiger was banned for swearing, and I was once kicked from a guild for swearing.[/quote]

Oh really? Prove that Tiger was banned for swearing. As far as I'm concerned, that's 100% hearsay and 0% truth. Also prove that a [b]large number of people have been banned for swearing[/b], because we're talking realistically. One person banned for tens of thousands swearing each day does not a statistical majority make.

[quote=Rtyu]Many people just don't like swearing. Also, there is a curse filter. [b]You now cannot prove no one has been banned or punished before,[/b] or that [b]a lot of the community finds swearing taboo.[/b][/quote]

Bold 1: That's why the burden of proof is on you.
Bold 2: Oh, wow. Try actually proving that.

[quote=Rtyu]If anything, this deserves "LMAOOOO." Clearly, you cannot say this because you haven't proven I have a lack of logic.[/quote]

>wasn't talking about you having a lack of logic in that particular line
>thinks that I'm talking about you having a lack of logic in that particular line

Oops!

Uhm, just throwing this out there, I'm legit.

[quote=Rtyu]Just because you haven't seen or heard of anyone getting banned for swearing doesn't mean it doesn't happen. If it wasn't a problem, it wouldn't be in the ToS.[/quote]

Can you prove it's happened before? You cannot. So therefore, it must happen so rarely that it's negligible or not at all.

[quote=Rtyu]Rather than an argument, this is a statement. How will I go about showing you I'm not disconnected from reality? lol[/quote]

You don't. It's irrefutable, because you've already shown that you're disconnected from reality through your "sound logic."

[quote=Rtyu]There is hardly any reason to show how your claims are horrible when you have shown you won't understand anything.[/quote]

Then show how I won't understand anything. I understand you perfectly fine, your claims are just absolutely terrible.

For example:

[quote=Rtyu]The ToS is reality because we must accept it and it is part of the game. My ideas are only from consideration of reality and logic, and it is more reasonable than being subjective and taking into account other's opinions.[/quote]

[quote=post]The ToS is not reality because people who swear clearly don't get banned.[/quote]

This is a perfectly valid counterargument. If you're going to say it's horrible, then show how it's horrible or shut up.

[quote=Rtyu]When you use "LMAOOOOO" that just shows you have no argument.[/quote]

Expand upon this or drop it. The argument was: you clearly do not know what happens in the game. You're disconnected from reality.

[quote=Rtyu]In your horrible attempt to refute my arguments, you have made yourself look foolish, and you clearly have not understood any sound logic I have proposed.[/quote]

Two things that I find wrong with this.
1) You have not shown how they're horrible attempts by actually refuting them.
2) You're assuming you're showing sound logic. You are not.

[quote=Rtyu]Your arguments have been simplified to "LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO."[/quote]

If you haven't caught on yet, I'm ridiculing your ignorance of actual in-game happenings.

[quote=Rtyu]Automatically, you lose this argument. Really, you are not looking for the truth. You just want your ideas to be right no matter what.[/quote]

[url=http://i.imgur.com/hIIPq.png]Get off your high horse, buddy.[/url] You don't win arguments by declaring you're the winner.

[quote=Rtyu]Players could only say that things like duping (not account hacking) annoys them, and they would have no right to call those acts illegitimate because
1) It does not affect anyone drastically. Duping changes the market, but the market is still able to function (merchanting, events, and the like can change the market the same way).[/quote]

If I beat you to a pulp, then you'd still be able to function, but that doesn't mean you're not highly damaged. Your logic is terrible. Functioning =/= functioning [b]properly.[/b]

[quote=Rtyu]Training on glitched maps only gives better exp and possibly makes the channels fuller (many things like 2x exp events that are not currently illegit give the same outcome[/quote]

When did debates transform into a contest of how effectively you can refute your own arguments?

[quote=Rtyu][b]2) Maplestory isn't a contest,[/b] so having an advantage over other players doesn't mean those other players "lose" something. [/quote]

You sure about that?

[quote=Rtyu]3) Without the ToS, [b]hacking is just another way of playing the game.[/b] Coding would be part of the game, although probably unspoken.[/quote]

What.

[quote=Rtyu]The ToS is reality because we must accept it and it is part of the game. My ideas are only from consideration of reality and logic, and it is more reasonable than being subjective and taking into account other's opinions.[/quote]

The ToS is not reality because people who swear clearly don't get banned.

[quote=Rtyu]There is no evidence to show it's prevalent.[/quote]

You must be very oblivious to everything that happens on this forum.

[quote=Rtyu]Even if it was, it being subjective would mean it would be more prone to falshoods. You didn't refute the point I made about how hacking and swearing are both bad because they annoy people and that legitimacy (of certain events) has no severity (basically).[/quote]

Hacking and swearing annoy people, yes. Does annoying people constitute illegitimacy? No.

Hacking [b]damages the integrity of the game.[/b] That is why it is considered illegitimate.

[quote=Rtyu]Aquiting is very different than not guilty. In many cases, and I believe in this one also, it means a second chance or benefit of the doubt (not enough evidence). Also, the bold is an important part because it is clearly saying what they are questioning is if the President should be kept in office. They are not judging if perjury is bad.[/quote]

They are judging if the offense is bad enough to kick the president out. The offense was judged to not be so.

[quote=Rtyu]Plato's illustration was purely to explain his concepts in a poetical sense using metaphors. However, you tried to use your illustration to prove your point, and it failed because there were too many things to accept that were not facts. For instance, you want me to accept that it was okay to eat the icream since the effects were negligible, but that is opinion.[/quote]

Clearly you've never actually read none of Plato's works, because you just called me out on things he does himself.

[quote=Rtyu]Public opinion is nothing in the face of an enforced law. Nexon [b]enforces the rules,[/b] but some people won't report swearing or training in glitched maps if it doesn't affect their mood much, and that can change. It doesn't change that those things are illegitimate. The ToS has not excluded them yet.[/quote]

LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[quote=Rtyu]Some people may not perceive them to be illegitimate, but that's because they are uneducated and they have been taught that it's okay to swear, and you know that in itself swearing is negative, so it incites negative emotions in people.[/quote]

Oh my. I'm not even sure where to start with this, it's just brimming with stupidity.

[url=http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/17019759.jpg]Your logic is bad. Please leave.[/url]

[quote=Rtyu]@IImaplers:
Rather than being good, I believe it is objectively neutral, and I have been giving evidence too show this. The evidence is that the system can still stand, regardless if the system is changed, and I invoked the term subjectivity because, when you invoke people's emotions, that is what it is (people can say it is either good or bad depending on their circumstances -- bad because it incites negative emotions [they feel anger, disappointment etc. because they lost some monetary worth] and good because it incites positive emotions[they feel joy and happiness because they get items for cheap].[/quote]
The system only stands because duped items are the only ones being sold. Legit items most certainly make up a small amount of what's being sold in the fm. Emotions, whether bad or good, are not at stake here. It is the loss of value of legitimate items which actually require effort and non-dirty money to make.

[quote=Rtyu]Touche', but I had to invoke a small amount of your subjectivity so you would understand the point. Do you agree we can throw away subjectivity in this argument?[/quote]
You keep bringing up subjectivity, when it is obvious that hacking does more tangible damage to the game than swearing. Ask yourself this question: Why is hacking/duping being enforced more in this game (though not as much as it should be) than swearing? Because the whole encompass of hacking can prevent the game from even running in the first place. When a game doesn't run no one can play it.

[quote=Rtyu]Clearly, those aren't examples because you didn't answer the question and ended it with a question.[/quote]
-Don't know if you're playing dumb or/and avoiding topic.-
Ever heard of rhetorical questions?

[quote=Rtyu]This argument is better. However, I don't agree with it because players can earn money by hunting bosses and monsters, self-scrolling, gaching, and buying meso sacks in the cash shop. After all, those would be some of the only legal ways to earn had not dupes and hacks come about. Also, you are indirectly accepting duping by saying it's the only way to earn mesos, but you are saying that because you think it's the easiest way (in reality, it would only allow one to make more mesos in a smaller amount of time).[/quote]

-hunting bosses yields items that are currently useless compared to duped items
-self-scrolling a perfect truly legit item is impossible without thousands of dollars, and extreme luck (using GMs is not legit)
-LOL. I am probably the #1 hater of duping.
-""you are indirectly accepting duping by saying it's the only way to earn mesos"". Lmao. You've made my day with a statement of such sheer ignorance. Have you found any successful merchants in this game which have never bought/sold duped items? Thought not.
-gaching is a ripoff and hasn't made any legit player rich (I'm talking tens of billions here) ever.
-buying meso sacks...another ripoff.

[quote=Rtyu]I have yet to see playing by the rules become taboo, and I don't see how it will.
You must not have seen my previous arguments on a subject like this. My previous arguments have been about how a ToS-based legitimacy is the best because it can objectively define illegitimcay. The threadstarter dislikes this because it equates swearing to hacking. My point is that severity of illegitimacy is an illusion because it is subjective, so swearing is equative to hacking. With a ToS-based defining of illegitimacy, not playing by the rules will always be taboo.[/quote]
I thought you've proposed to mutually agree to throw subjectively out of this argument but here you go mentioning it again. Alright then, by your token, since severity of legitimacy is an illusion due to being subjective, in real life stealing a cookie would be equal to stealing a car.

[quote=Rtyu]I'm sure you can agree that a community-based (as the threadstarter suggested, but it is actually individual-based) defining of legitimacy is subjective. If it is used, there will be no clear definition of legitimacy, and that's why I invoked subjectivity. Even if the community had a clear definition, it would have to go by the ToS to be truly legitimate (in order to play the game, you have to accept the ToS.) It is not a fallacy if it is right.[/quote]
ToS holds no ground to common sense and rational thought.

[quote=Rtyu]losing a small amount of virtual currency is not life-changing...What I'm wanting is for you to be objective and explain how it is bad for Maplestory items to lose monetary value.[/quote]

First off, never said it was a small amount of currency, but that shouldn't matter anyway due to your perceived standard, that value is subjective. Secondly, if you want to know how it is bad for maplestory items to lose value you've gotta give me some valid reason why it is [i]good[/i] for legit maplestory items to lose value. Alas, let me give you some examples. Level of good or bad, again, can be arguable, but since you like tangible objective evidence:

1. the more an item is duped, the less the cost of that item because of demand decreasing while supply increases. When this happens with items like white scrolls, as a result, less is spent on Cash shop items like Pam Songs, i.e. less revenue for Nexon. Less revenue for Nexon indirectly translates to less focus on improving the game (not like there's much focus in that normally but that's beside the point). This is good how?

2. the more perfect unique gear is duped, the cheaper that class of gear gets, the less demand for cubes. Results in same scenario as previous point. This is good how?

3. when GM scrolls are duped and the supply is high but demand is low, what happens to 10/30/60/70% counterparts to GM scrolls? They lose value like everything else that's not as useful as what is duped. How is the normal legit player supposed to succeed money-wise in scenarios like these? The easy answer is they do not. So their only choice to succeed would be to partake in what they have been trying to avoid all along or they can just quit. Quitting is another repercussion I can't see as being good for the game.

4. when honest hard-working players quit, dishonest lazy players flourish. When cheating becomes the norm, what happens to playing by the rules? It becomes taboo and can't possibly be anything other than disastrous for the game servers. This is good for the game how?

I'd like to see your responses to my questions, and without anything to do with the strawman fallacy of "subjectivity". When you ignore the point of this thread (that something like harmlessly swearing in a game is laughable comparing to hacking in that game), with the weak rebuttal of subjectivity, you really have no ground to stand on here.

[quote=Rtyu]@IImaplers: I did generalize negative emotions and only use annoy at some point, so I will include anger, disappointment, depression, and so forth. Furthmore, the whole idea of it inciting negative emotions is what makes it bad, and losing monetary value eventually happens even without duping (it has happened numerous times), so it's just a simplicity of life. Also, since what you saying seems to be pure subjectivity, I can say that value is subjetive and say that some players have put more value on their legitimate items because they believe their conviction to not buy duped items makes them worthy of praise and admiration.[/quote]

"the whole idea of it inciting negative emotions is what makes it bad" -you must mean inciting negative emotions such as the feeling that if you don't dupe or buy duped items you aren't getting ahead in the game because just about everyone else is taking advantage of it? Alas, that emotion is not as important as the emotion of "last week my item was worth billions, but this week it's worth a few mil because it was duped to death". Subjective or not, when an item can't sell for as much as it used to because of dupes, the implications are far greater than someone being butthurt from someone else using the s or f word in their vocabulary. Just like in real life when you've for instance noticed how the stock market crashed and you can't pay for your family's expenses, comparing to you hearing a curse word. Your joke of a rebuttal is laughable.

"losing monetary value eventually happens even without duping" - not the point. Point is that it happens or [i]can happen[/i] with duping, and never with swearing. Learn context.

"what you saying seems to be pure subjectivity" - everything anyone can say can be subjective. Your overgeneralizing and labeling any realistic argument that contradicts your argument as subjective is in itself subjective. Again, learn context.

Regardless of whether something is subjective or not, there's things called facts. When there was a sale on Pam's Songs in the cash shop, and people bought some for about 10k NX each, and all of a sudden an influx of duped white scrolls comes. Don't tell me this influx doesn't negate the intended value of Pam's Songs. Another fact: some half-decent equips were worth billions before duping came about, now such equips are worthless because they happen to not be perfected with duped GM scrolls. You can call value/worth subjective but this ignores the obvious facts. I wonder what you'll spew out next, that noticing obvious facts is subjective too? lmao.

O.o so... If I bought my unduped shield. Empressed for my empress gear... Made my reverse staff. Trained to 200 without botting/ hacking... O.o I'm still legit right?

Claiming that everyone is illegitimate as a warrant to be illegitimate is the dumbest thing ever lmao.

Goes back to the simple. If everyone jumps off the bridge, I have to jump off the bridge! Wrong. People make their own decisions. If they choose to be illegitimate then that's their problem.

[quote=ViolinFTW]I don't give 2 craps if someone's legit.. not my problem[/quote]

No surprise there. That's the lowlife attitude we expect all hackers/hacker-lovers to have. Go leech like a champ.

@Rtyu: You have been woefully mislead. The original Bible was not even on the topic of sin itself, even though it did contradictingly touch on it, but you are far too young to have read anything but edited, censored, and revised Bibles. Nothing you have gotten is even remotely close to the true intentions of the original.

@Rtyu: The whole process of duping doesn't just "annoy" people, it has completely devalued their legitimate hard-earned items, thereby lowering the worth of all relevant currency in the game. You say players "lose nothing" from duping being around, but how do you explain the real money I've invested into items becoming void of value because a duped something-or-other replaced them? A real life equivalent to duping would be counterfeit money, and that fake money being available anywhere and everywhere to those suspecting and unsuspecting, would make the actual money lose its value considerably. If you've worked hard to make actual non-counterfeit money and chose not to partake in messing with the counterfeit stuff, you would be more than just annoyed, you'd probably be bankrupt.

Has cursing in a game made people bankrupt and affected just about everything around it negatively like duping has? Please tell us what swearing in a game has done to make that just as bad as ruining the game's overall value and the real, actual earned money being put into it. Your arguments have been crushed numerous times already. Just quit before people start flat out laughing at your refusal to notice the obvious.

[quote=Rtyu]@MrTouchnGo:

Players could only say that things like duping (not account hacking) annoys them, and they would have no right to call those acts illegitimate because
1) It does not affect anyone drastically. Duping changes the market, but the market is still able to function (merchanting, events, and the like can change the market the same way). Training on glitched maps only gives better exp and possibly makes the channels fuller (many things like 2x exp events that are not currently illegit give the same outcome
2) Maplestory isn't a contest, so having an advantage over other players doesn't mean those other players "lose" something.
3) Without the ToS, hacking is just another way of playing the game. Coding would be part of the game, although probably unspoken.

The ToS is reality because we must accept it and it is part of the game. My ideas are only from consideration of reality and logic, and it is more reasonable than being subjective and taking into account other's opinions.

There is no evidence to show it's prevalent. Even if it was, it being subjective would mean it would be more prone to falshoods. You didn't refute the point I made about how hacking and swearing are both bad because they annoy people and that legitimacy (of certain events) has no severity (basically).

I was reiterating. If you meant in the sentences you quoted, then I stated it 3 times.

Aquiting is very different than not guilty. In many cases, and I believe in this one also, it means a second chance or benefit of the doubt (not enough evidence). Also, the bold is an important part because it is clearly saying what they are questioning is if the President should be kept in office. They are not judging if perjury is bad.

Plato's illustration was purely to explain his concepts in a poetical sense using metaphors. However, you tried to use your illustration to prove your point, and it failed because there were too many things to accept that were not facts. For instance, you want me to accept that it was okay to eat the icream since the effects were negligible, but that is opinion.

Public opinion is nothing in the face of an enforced law. Nexon enforces the rules, but some people won't report swearing or training in glitched maps if it doesn't affect their mood much, and that can change. It doesn't change that those things are illegitimate. The ToS has not excluded them yet.

[url=http://i.imgur.com/jwyxW.png]Then[/url]

Some people may not perceive them to be illegitimate, but that's because they are uneducated and they have been taught that it's okay to swear, and you know that in itself swearing is negative, so it incites negative emotions in people.

How can you say something is not itself? o-o Did I not understand you?

The Bible defines what sin is.[/quote]

Oh, you think the Bible is a credible source of information. I might as well humor you. No, the Bible does not do so.

[quote=Rtyu]@MrTouchnGo: I have refuted the ideas that legitimacy is defined subjectively and that judging legitimacy based on the ToS is stupid by telling you how the community uses the ToS to deem certain acts as illegitimate, or rather that all named activities that have been deemed illegitimate are in the ToS. If hacking wasn't against the rules and taboo (mainly because hacking has been given a negative conotation due things like website hacking and account hacking), hardly anyone would have anything against hacking that isn't account hacking (account hacking invokes the foul mood aspect).
I'm getting my ideas only from facts. I'll reiterate them 1) The ToS bans hacking/exploiting/glitching/swearing 2) Saying there is a degree to bad is subjective 3) What is sin is sin. What is bad is bad. What is illegitimate is illegitimate. There is no between.

As for the Bobville and Clinton examples, it seems the persons in the Clinton case who judged the acts did not say the acts were right, but they however gave the judged (Clinton) a second chance. Actually, you seem to be trolling with the Bobville example, because it isn't a good example because 1) it didn't happen 2) if it is found out some contestants ate ice cream, those contestants will be punished because eating icecream would have defined cheating. Also, the officials would have had a good reason to ban ice cream eating, so eating ice cream would actually have been cheating (you even stated that it gave them an advantage, although the advantage was negligible. 3) You would have to explain why some illegitimate acts are not illegitimate, since it seems that's what you are hinting at by using this example.[/quote]

Saying sin is sin is subjective. Argue with bubbles of naïveté, and bubbles get popped.

[quote=Rtyu]I have refuted the ideas that legitimacy is defined subjectively and that judging legitimacy based on the ToS is stupid by telling you how the community uses the ToS to deem certain acts as illegitimate, or rather that all named activities that have been deemed illegitimate are in the ToS. If hacking wasn't against the rules and taboo (mainly because hacking has been given a negative conotation due things like website hacking and account hacking), hardly anyone would have anything against hacking that isn't account hacking (account hacking invokes the foul mood aspect).[/quote]

Wait a minute.

"If hacking wasn't against the rules and taboo hardly anyone would have anything against hacking that isn't account hacking (account hacking invokes the foul mood aspect)."

What. No, just no. If you're going to say something as bold as this, support it with solid evidence.

[quote=Rtyu]I'm getting my ideas only from facts. I'll reiterate them 1) The ToS bans hacking/exploiting/glitching/swearing[/quote]

[url=http://i.imgur.com/jwyxW.png]Lol?[/url] I'm fairly certain that's been established already. Does the ToS equate reality? No.

[quote=Rtyu]2) Saying there is a degree to bad is subjective[/quote]

Subjective but prevalent.

[quote=Rtyu]3) What is sin is sin. What is bad is bad. What is illegitimate is illegitimate. There is no between.[/quote]

Thank you for stating the same point twice in different wording.

[quote=Rtyu]As for the Bobville and Clinton examples, it seems the persons in the Clinton case who judged the acts did not say the acts were right, but they however gave the judged (Clinton) a second chance.[/quote]

"Would it put at risk the liberties of the people to retain the President in office? Putting aside partisan animus, if you can honestly say that it would not, that those liberties are safe in his hands, then you must vote to acquit."

That doesn't seem like a second chance so much as "this is a stupid thing to be doing."

[quote=Rtyu]Actually, you seem to be trolling with the Bobville example, because it isn't a good example because 1) it didn't happen[/quote]

Just because it doesn't happen doesn't mean I can't craft a theoretical situation to convey a point. By your logic, Plato is a troll because he uses theoretical situations to express his ideas ([i]Allegory of the Cave[/i]).

[quote=Rtyu]2) if it is found out some contestants ate ice cream, those contestants will be punished because eating icecream would have defined cheating. Also, the officials would have had a good reason to ban ice cream eating, so eating ice cream would actually have been cheating (you even stated that it gave them an advantage, although the advantage was negligible.[/quote]

Are you sure about that? Notice how none or very few people polled actually care about it, much like swearing, training at glitched LHC, etc. Public opinion is much stronger than actual law. (Fugitive Slave Law)

[quote=Rtyu]3) You would have to explain why some illegitimate acts are not illegitimate, since it seems that's what you are hinting at by using this example.[/quote]

I'm not saying that they're not illegitimate per se, I'm saying that the community does not perceive them to be illegitimate.

[quote=Rtyu]I didn't ignore them.[/quote]

Then show me where you refuted any of my points at all. You just restated [i]your[/i] points without explaining anywhere how I am wrong.

Things you ignored: Bobville, Clinton, [b]COMMUNITY-JUDGED LEGITIMACY, NOT ToS-JUDGED LEGITIMACY.[/b]

You are ignoring the fact that [b]this thread bases itself upon the fact that no one, or very few people, judge legitimacy according to the ToS.[/b] That is an irrefutable fact.

[quote=Rtyu]nonsensical straw man fallacies and refusals to form a coherent rebuttal[/quote]

I'm done. I've already made my points, you've ignored them, any further posts would be [url=http://artiewayne.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/beatdeadhorse.gif?w=480]beating a dead horse.[/url]

First off, you seem to be missing the point of this thread entirely - legitimacy is [b]not[/b] based upon what the ToS deems to be legitimate or illegitimate, but what the person judging deems to be so.

This thread is [i]not[/i] basing legitimacy off of the ToS, but what the community or an individual deems to be illegitimate.

Let me explain: using the ToS to judge legitimacy is stupid because if you cross-reference every player with the ToS, then 99.99% of the players would be deemed [b]illegitimate.[/b] There is a huge problem when the [i]absolute majority[/i] of the player base is the game's equivalent of a criminal. At that point, you cannot judge purely by the ToS.

Let's say there's a town called Bobville. There's an annual track meet that happens in Bobville where the eight fastest runners compete to see who's the best. However, because of Bobville's extremely hot climate, the rules officially state that anyone competing in the meet cannot eat ice cream forty-eight hours before the race.

Despite the fact that the rule is officially in the books, eating ice cream does little to enhance performance in the meet, so the rule is neither enforced nor pushed to be enforced by the general populace. A poll was taken of the populace, 97% of which stated that they would eat ice cream before the meet even if they were competing. 99% said they prefer having the ice cream rule not enforced. Only 1% said they would take steroids or other banned performance enhancing drugs, while 99.5% said that anti-steroid rules should be enforced.

Before the meet, all runners except one partake in ice cream, while one of the seven who ate ice cream also pumped a large amount of steroids in order to boost physical capabilities and therefore greatly increase chances of winning the meet.

Officially, eating ice cream is a violation of the rules. However, does that [i]really[/i] make the ice cream eaters cheaters? No, it doesn't, because a) it has a negligible effect on the meet, and b) no one cares about it.

Heck, want a historical example? How about the impeachment of Bill Clinton?

I'm sure you're familiar with it. On the stand, under oath, he said that he did not have sexual relations with Monica Lewinsky ("that woman" ), while in reality, he did. Crime he was guilty of? Perjury.

The impeachment process was carried out, but he was voted by the Senate as [b]not guilty[/b] when he clearly [i]was[/i] guilty of committing perjury - the reason he was acquitted was that most Americans did not believe that lying about his sexual peccadilloes was [b][i]severe enough[/i][/b] of a crime to warrant a guilty verdict.

The same idea can be applied to certain activities banned by the ToS but are not considered illegitimate by the community's standards.

[quote=Rtyu]If there are not only two sides, then what are there? You give no examples or evidence or reason to believe.[/quote]

There are certain activities (e.g., using third party programs) that are, without doubt, illegitimate. However, there are certain activities that can be judged as legitimate or illegitimate based on who you're asking - training at glitched LHC, using EE hacked weapons, etc.

http://i.imgur.com/n0QZT.jpg

[quote=Rtyu]If we take the different perceptions of each man or woman into account, the severity of illegitimacy is really the only subjective idea. It would take too much for me to describe in detail and in another sense how hacking and swearing are equally bad, so I will uphold the idea that they are equally bad by saying they both put one in a foul mood that may or may not last very long.[/quote]

Summary: "I can't come up with an explanation for an invalid point, so let's skip over this and pretend I'm making perfectly logical statements."

[quote=Rtyu]Otherwise, without the "foul mood" aspect, they wouldn't be seen as illegitimate or be put in the ToS.[/quote]

It's actually to further push the kid-friendly image of this game, but whatever floats your sinking boat.

If you're going to play devil's advocate, at least do it intelligently.

[quote=Rtyu]Yes, the prescribed punishment would be to go to hell if one persists to sin without repenting, and there are punishments like not having the grace of God for protection;however, there are also prescribed punishments for taking part in illegitimate acitivites (being banned or suspended), and I think you missed the point. The point is it doesn't matter how one perceives the severity of an illegitimate activity to be. What matters is that they are illegitimate and one should not perform them, lest one be deemed illegitimate.[/quote]

You're branding something that is many shades of gray as white and black. You're arguing for the very thing that I stated in the thread title to be a laughable idea - that there are only two sides, legitimate and illegitimate.

Illegitimate activities are illegitimate - true. However, using the ToS as a guideline for what constitutes an illegitimate activity is an absolutely ludicrous idea. The very definition of illegitimacy, for all intents and purposes, is subjective.

[quote=Rtyu]Also, the same concept applies for the second idea you quoted. You may perceive certain things to be not as bad as others, but that does not mean they are necessarily not as bad as others, and you may have some unreasonable reason in believing certain illegiimate activities are not as bad as others. To reiterate, the point is that they are illegitimate and game-damaging, and it is an illusion of perception to believe one illegitimate activity is more severe than another, and I believe I showed how some have the same negative effects.[/quote]

They are not at all the same, as some violations will invariably have stronger and more far-reaching effects than others.

If I swear at a single person, that single person can in turn inherit my foul mood, true, but that foul mood won't last for very long. On the other hand, mass duping items causes irreversible damage to the game's economy.

[quote=Rtyu]It's a concept similar to sin. A sin is a sin no matter how worse one seems to be than another. Also, if one breaks a rule, one can't change the fact that one has broken a rule. One can try to follow the rules furthermore and be good; however, one still has that one bad moment stuck to one like a pestering boil.[/quote]

I'm not a religious expert and I don't pretend to be, but as far as I know, all sins have the same prescribed punishment. Illegitimate activities in this game do not.

[quote=Rtyu]Hacking and duping ruin the game because it makes it easier for players to obtain godly items, thus ruining the economy by making items cheaper and allowing players to be scammed. Also, any sense of accomplishment of making godly items is diminished since a point of the game (scrolling godly items) is useless. Moving on, the events of ruining the economy and diminishing the point of the game is bad because these events incite negative emotions (anger, hate, envy, sad) in some players, and even cause some to quit.
In the same manner, having an illegitimate name and swearing affect the mood of players. Swearing is specially named because curse words are taboo, making them useful sentence enhancers when one has lack of a better word. However, swearing is meant to ridicule or taunt, which causes swearing to incite negative emotions. Illegitimate names do the same since the illegitimacy is caused by swear words, and swear words incite negative emotions.

Personally, I think swear words ruin the beauty of the game.[/quote]

I think you missed this:

[quote=threadstarter]as bad and as game-damaging as a hacker/duper.[/quote]

The things you said are bad, but not as bad.

[quote=SugarCoatedSour]How can you say nobody is legit? You don't know how everyone plays. I can tell you all my characters are legit right now. All my armor is either from events or drops I hunted for. All scrolls are from events. Granted, I've never been a rich player, so I don't ever even buy scrolls or good scrolled items, but you get the point.[/quote]

You've never sworn in-game before? You've never KSed anyone, intentionally or unintentionally? You've never sold anything to anyone (most mesos in circulation came from botting)?

[quote=OmgItsMazz]Preach, brother.[/quote]

All day, errday, bro.

im not trying to jack ur thread. i cant post one of my own since im still new.
but is anyone having problems with durability? items circulating in mts and fm that u cant actually equip.
when u try to equip the item it says
the durability of this item is too low to equip. please repair the item to equip it.

i made my own equips a long time ago

[quote=Yohosh]I, for one, am completely legit as far as I know. I never scam or accept any mesos for free due to my moral standards. I never pick up items that werent dropped by a monster I killed, and if I do its usually just to check it stats then I give it away if it's good enough. I don't buy nx at all, I only trade items which I legitemately earned through the MTS. idunno, I feel legit. LOL.[/quote]

All those parts are . . . . . Bad . . The only one that you needed to write was i never scam o-o

To TS: great minds think alike. I'm surprised someone other than myself understands things like these. +100

edit: just noticed you are a fellow SouthPerrian. Most (not all) SouthPerrians know what they're talking about.

How can you say nobody is legit? You don't know how everyone plays. I can tell you all my characters are legit right now. All my armor is either from events or drops I hunted for. All scrolls are from events. Granted, I've never been a rich player, so I don't ever even buy scrolls or good scrolled items, but you get the point.

People are stupid. Damage isn't everything. If enough people realized this and stopped wasting thousands of dollars on "perfected hacked crap" hacking and duping wouldn't be as much of an issue. What's the point of hitting 999,999 on every hit? You happy you can cap? It make you sleep better at night? Is it really fun though hitting the cap? What does one do after they reached the cap? So now you can solo the empress but what do you do from there on? Farm and sell the equips? Make money even though you're current gear hits the cap so you're making excess money for no reason? Maplestory wasn't supposed to be about damage and by all means the main purpose isn't about hitting all 999,999s. Most people that play are missing the whole social concept the game originally had. Instead they are focusing on the insignificant. They are playing a numbers game. Well kudos to you hackers. Have fun hitting 999,999s and literally having no purpose in playing the game when you find out that once you reach the cap, money is useless so even if you can solo every boss in the game, it doesn't do anything that will benefit your character. All that time you wasted hacking to hit the cap will mean nothing. You will probably end up selling your hacked gears and opting to make a new character to satisfy your bordum. Bordum from not having anything to improve on a character. What's the fun of being the strongest when once you get there you have nothing left to accomplish?

nvmmm :C

Preach, brother.

Little whiny kids making threads about the stupidest things.

Did you seriously stop and think:

"Ow, my Brain"

I don't think anybody's ever seriously read the ToS or rules to a game before they've started playing, if you did, you're doing it wrong.
Not to mention reporting on MapleStory is about as funny as a heart attack where you actually have to pay 1K mesos to send a report.

Laughable.

its hard to say some1 is legit when every1 is considered not legit

I just wish they had a "hacker filter" that was as effective as the "curse filter" is now...

It is a community based on a game, and it has rules that are supposed to be followed; in a game the rules support the fairness and balance of how players act to achieve goals, if you break those rules to get the upper hand over the game you are cheating the whole community of players and the basics of the game itself, if it were football or something else in RL that you play, you wouldn t like to have the other team getting a net in their side of the camp to avoid you from passing through (FM abusers, hackers taking over good training maps, boss map abusers), and the likes (yes, MS is a computer game, but people puts their effort on it, be it small or big, and it deserves respect). As a community, we are all human beings, in front of a screen who knows how far from each other, but still get to communicate and interact with others; if the messages and attitudes we express are harmfull to others is something we dont really know because of that secure feeling that gives us the anonymacy status of the internet, but that is not an excuse to act irresponsibly towards others; we ve seen lots of threads of treason and deception, love and joy, etc. here in basil s; given there is at least one that its true, it is proof enough that messages over the game have a value, and we are all prone to develop some kind of feeling about those and express it in many ways out in the game or real life and vice-versa (someone could had a bad day at RL and vent it in the game over the first player he sees annoying... other had a bad day in game and goes in a depresion/rage that affects his relationships with others). WE KNOW IT IS A GAME, but we are still a comunity of human players prone to abstract ideas and feelings from others in this game community, more over if there are children playing this, the golden rule applies.

[quote=Deadling]I personally think that people that bring up the whole argument of "no one is legit, at least one scroll you used must have been duped, so you can't be legit because of that.", are obviously trying to hide their own illegitimate actions. Only trying to justify what they do.[/quote]

I and others have already posted something similar to this, although it's nice to see that there are others thinking this.

[quote=Deadling]I personally think that people that bring up the whole argument of "no one is legit, at least one scroll you used must have been duped, so you can't be legit because of that.", are obviously trying to hide their own illegitimate actions. Only trying to justify what they do.[/quote]
I go with this concept.
Though, I honestly think the word "legit" has no meaning in Maplestory anymore.

edit-nevermind