General

@Axnslicer

Well first off, thank you for your very detailed yet concise response. Second, I concede my point. I've used a similar amount of cubes as you and I do agree with your average of getting double stat lines every 50 or so cubes. My original comment was based off of anecdotal evidence and I should have realized that sooner.

[quote=microcras]You guyz are ALL wrong
Basically, red, black, and meister cubes have the SAME tier up rate.
Yes... the same.
As said since release and apparently a false rumour about black cubes being better because of one lucky person and a few instances convinced the whole maplestory.
[/quote]

Stop wasting our time and learn how to read. Black cubes cubes say in their description that they have a higher chance to raise rank than Red cubes.

[quote=microcras]
Maybe I'm wrong... but someone will have to lay out the data on how black tiers up better with data on thousands of red and black cubes to convince me[/quote]

You're wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsfPCmBOmz8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJw3rCqALSE

You guyz are ALL wrong
Basically, red, black, and meister cubes have the SAME tier up rate.
Yes... the same.
As said since release and apparently a false rumour about black cubes being better because of one lucky person and a few instances convinced the whole maplestory. There is a reason why the description DOES NOT say about black cubes being higher tier up rate. The master craftsman cube says lower tier up rate so I don't see why Nexon didn't put in the description higher tier up rate. In fact if it was true tha tblack cubes have higher tier up rate and Nexon put that into the description, since black cubes are more expensive, Nexon would actually gain money.
Furthermore, even if black cubes have a say 75% more chance of tiering up, red cubes are 1/2 of the price of black cubes. People have to remember that. The black cube tiering up more isn't confirmed and was only slightly connoted by an employee, not confirmed.
Black cubes were put into the CS because they could keep the old pots if you didn't find anything you like, as what it was INTENDED for use.
So all in all, I would say, use red or meister to tier up, master or just more red or meister to get good lines, and black to get even better lines.
oh, and also, people have the idea since black is expensive, it's better for tiering up... like i said, it's used for keeping lines... so plz just use common sense. the law of large numbers says that even if your data says something, the more times it happens the same time, the higher percentage it's true.
Maybe I'm wrong... but someone will have to lay out the data on how black tiers up better with data on thousands of red and black cubes to convince me

[quote=KnuckleBrown]Yes you're right, retain is the wrong word. It should've been revert. Edited

@Axnslicer

What amount of nx can guarantee better stats? I think Black cubes have value for people who have 2 lines of their desired stat on every piece of eqp, and are aiming for 3. In that case is it really better to potentially lose your 2 lines and still not achieve 3 lines during your cubing run? How much would it cost to get it back vs always having it with black cubes? I generally lack this sort of statistical data that goes beyond my own experience, so I'd like some light shed on it.[/quote]

Someone did the math once. They just counted all possible lines (we do have that data), assumed equal probability for all (which may not be true but the math would have been impossible without it so this point is moot), and did the statistics for possible combinations. You can look that up if you want to argue with my numbers, or list your own cubing experience, because I'm going off memory.

From my personal experience using roughly 1000-2000 cubes.

Generally it takes 2-3 cubes on average to get one line of a stat (Str/Luk/Dex/Int) and 10-20 to get 2 lines of a stat. For a specific stat, you multiply those by 4, so if you're aiming for % str only, it will take 8-12 cubes to get one line of % str, 40-80 cubes to get 2 lines of % str. The numbers get a little better if you're willing to settle for % all stat with the 3% penalty.

I do not personally cube for 3 lines of % stat, so I don't really know the numbers for that. I'm sure there are people who do though, having seen the way certain players cube.
3 lines, just as a guess, would take around 200-300 cubes, or around 1000 cubes if you're aiming for a 3 lines of a specific stat (12/9/9 or better).

There, your numbers, though I only really have confidence in them up to 2 lines. You'd have to ask one of the people who have spent several thousand dollars cubing if you want better data when going for 3 lines.

On to the actual point, as illustrated by a simple example.

Let's say you have 21% Luk on a CRA Thief Hat. If you're going for 30%+ Luk, you should be ready to spend several hundred, if not thousand, dollars on NX. In that time, you will expect to see 21% luk or better at least 1000/80 = 12.5 times. Paying twice as much for the option of resetting to those 2 lines is pure foolishness, since you'll cube right over them more than a dozen times on your path to 30% anyway. Your contingency plan is not "use a black cube to reset", but rather, "keep cubing with Red cubes until I get my stats back or better".

Therefore, Black cubes have no value for people with 2 lines of a specific stat.

So kindly stop suggesting people should use Black cubes for stats.

[quote=John5p]Umm then you might want to edit your original post to convey the message you actually wanted to convey?[/quote]

Yes you're right, retain is the wrong word. It should've been revert. Edited

@Axnslicer

What amount of nx can guarantee better stats? I think Black cubes have value for people who have 2 lines of their desired stat on every piece of eqp, and are aiming for 3. In that case is it really better to potentially lose your 2 lines and still not achieve 3 lines during your cubing run? How much would it cost to get it back vs always having it with black cubes? I generally lack this sort of statistical data that goes beyond my own experience, so I'd like some light shed on it.

[quote=nickyownzu1]But other than that, what I said was correct?[/quote]

Yes, Black to Tier, Red for stats. I've heard people suggesting using Reds on Epic items during Double Miracle time to increase your chances of a Double Tier up, but I don't believe anyone has actually tested whether that's true.

[quote=KnuckleBrown]Red cubes to get 2 lines of your stat, and black cubes when you want to get 3 lines. Getting to 3 lines of stat is obviously the hardest to get so with black cubes, you'll at least retain your 2 lines of stat while you try to get 3 lines.[/quote]

No, just no. There is almost never a situation where you should use a black cube for stats at leg. Black cubes supposedly exist to allow you to keep your original stats. The only time such a option has value is if you don't have enough NX to guarantee you'll hit better stats, in which case

A) You should never have cubed to begin with. Cubing away good leg stats when you're low on NX is incredibly foolish for many reasons.
B) Spending twice as much NX per cube is like throwing away water when you're already stuck in a desert.

One of the few "acceptable" reasons to use a black cube at leg tier is "I'm so rich I don't care", in which case you can waste however much money you want.

[quote=traderweak]Why you claim red for stats and black for tier and no one mock you.

World is not fair sometimes.[/quote]

Because you were wrong before. There's no difference in the stats you can get between different cubes. Red cubes are cheaper, so it's better to use those for obtaining a decent stat, not because it has a better chance of giving you better stats. Black cubes have a higher chance of raising your potential tier than red cubes.

[quote=KnuckleBrown]I know that. What I'm saying is that if you don't get 3 lines, at least you'll have the option of retaining the 2 lines you already got from the red cubing.[/quote]

Umm then you might want to edit your original post to convey the message you actually wanted to convey?

[quote=John5p]I've used black cubes 2 weeks ago and you cannot retain individual lines. Its either you retain all 3 lines or you reset the entire potential.[/quote]

I know that. What I'm saying is that if you don't get 3 lines, at least you'll have the option of retaining the 2 lines you already got from the red cubing.

[quote=KnuckleBrown]Red cubes to get 2 lines of your stat, and black cubes when you want to get 3 lines. Getting to 3 lines of stat is obviously the hardest to get [b][/b] while you try to get 3 lines.[/quote]

I've used black cubes 2 weeks ago and you cannot retain individual lines. Its either you retain all 3 lines or you reset the entire potential.

[quote=Axnslicer]Actually, you should not use Black Cubes for saving pot lines. That's a logic trap, because when you actually get the line you want, you'll still have to toss your old potential, and you'll have paid almost twice as much NX to do it.[/quote]

But other than that, what I said was correct?

Red cubes to get 2 lines of your stat, and black cubes when you want to get 3 lines. Getting to 3 lines of stat is obviously the hardest to get so with black cubes, you'll at least revert back to your 2 lines of stat while you try again to get 3 lines.

[quote=nickyownzu1]So it is statistically the most efficient to use black cubes exclusively for tiering up (or for saving pot lines but I'm not ever gonna have godly enough pot lines for that) and then using red cubes until you reach your desired lines?[/quote]

Actually, you should not use Black Cubes for saving pot lines. That's a logic trap, because when you actually get the line you want, you'll still have to toss your old potential, and you'll have paid almost twice as much NX to do it.

i usually red cube till i get something that i would sell for a decent amount of meso then black cube it to see if i get something better

@traderweak: It's counter-intuitive I know, but alas it's Nexon.

[quote=traderweak]Why you claim red for stats and black for tier and no one mock you.

World is not fair sometimes.[/quote]

Why mock him when he is completely right?

So it is statistically the most efficient to use black cubes exclusively for tiering up (or for saving pot lines but I'm not ever gonna have godly enough pot lines for that) and then using red cubes until you reach your desired lines?

Red cubes are garbage for ranking up. plz bring back super miracle cubes nexon.

Always red for stats. Only use black for tier ups or stats that are reeeeeaaallly good but not quite the best.

You can rank up the tier with less black cubes. I have all my equips unique and only used about 4 or 5 black cubes to get each unique. I got my pendant legendary with 7 ^^

[quote=icebeam34]u clearly dont cube[/quote]
he clearly doesn't play the game at all.
[skims his past comments = lol]

[quote=traderweak]I think Red can give some stats like 12 12 9 at legendary while Black at most 12 9 9.[/quote]
u clearly dont cube

It hasn't really changed since when this thread was made, more than half a year ago. Tier up rates overall have increased though. Red and black both give the same stats.

http://www.southperry.net/showthread.php?t=72594