General

i think feminism is still somewhat necessary. If feminism started to fade away, then naturally the male would resume domination over women by nature?

@insanelyamusing defence when you're in immediate danger is justifiable, sure, but it doesn't mean you're allowed to beat up a female "for equality", same goes for females, really.
@fraddddbs are you sure about that? I hope you do realise that most r4p3 cases aren't reported because females feel too guilty to even speak up... 1 in 3 females get sexually assaulted in their lifetime, and I KNOW people who have been abused without reporting it... Sure females are treated better now than before, but I think r4p3 is still a huge problem in society and many people don't even realise it.
@dogs well of course the extremists will use a radical approach to fight female oppression, sometimes it's needed, even. I think you might have just met the wrong kinda feminists, because I know a few self proclaimed feminists that are just misandrists that want female superiority...

They're almost all extremely whiny and annoying, especially the extremists.

@insanelyamusing lmao! So you're telling me VIOLENCE is justifiable? Any decent human being would be against violence...
@Kalemora people assume that all feminists are radical feminists,it's quite sad to see that people don't take feminism seriously. No wonder females are still experiencing so much bull still, and people still deny that females aren't still oppressed
@NonSomoFronz care to elaborate? Have you heard of the Steubenville case? If that's not oppression idek what is.

If you're not a feminist, what are you?

Women are totally oppressed here in the 21st century.

@insanelyamusing I'm guessing you believe that females deserve to get hit if they want equality?
@bazulceeeper4: Not sure if you are referring to me or people in general but I am aware of female oppression (not all, but the main issues that females deal with) I am just interested to know what other people think of feminism. It seems that quite a few people are against it....

[quote=Fusionpressure]For the war part, I think it's just selective discrimination.

I remember a thread regarding women in the military a long time ago and someone posting a good study that showed that in combat situations, a male soldier would disregard orders and squad safety to try and protect a female, even if it was hopeless to do so.[/quote]

We have these notions of genders, and it's really down there with our core beliefs about this world.
It's too bad.

[quote=Darkwizzie]In some issues I'm confused as to whether it's discrimination towards women or men.
Before the nursing boom few years ago, it's quite rare to have a male want to be a nurse. You could be subjected to chiding from your friends. Or here's a better example. Selective service. Only men need to sign up for selective service, in case there is a draft so they may be drafted. That's obviously sexism. But is it sexist towards men because they die out there if a war breaks out, or is it sexis ttowards females because it implies they shouldn't bother with war, are not capable, etc? One is tempted to say both.[/quote]

For the war part, I think it's just selective discrimination.

I remember a thread regarding women in the military a long time ago and someone posting a good study that showed that in combat situations, a male soldier would disregard orders and squad safety to try and protect a female, even if it was hopeless to do so.

[quote=Rationale]btw, look at the largest workforce of 3 million healthcare workers (nurses)

90% of them are white females and they occupy really high positions

they're not oppressed at all

but their whole occupation is subject to the lay man's stupidity

that aint stopping them though[/quote]
In some issues I'm confused as to whether it's discrimination towards women or men.
Before the nursing boom few years ago, it's quite rare to have a male want to be a nurse. You could be subjected to chiding from your friends. Or here's a better example. Selective service. Only men need to sign up for selective service, in case there is a draft so they may be drafted. That's obviously sexism. But is it sexist towards men because they die out there if a war breaks out, or is it sexis ttowards females because it implies they shouldn't bother with war, are not capable, etc? One is tempted to say both.

[quote=dexlesssin2008]lol did this thread seriously turn into how fat a girl is[/quote]
Mein gott, you've contributed sooooo0000OOOOOooo much to this discussion!

[quote=vicariously]
Yeah, humanists is not going to catch on.
[/quote]
Well, that's too bad.

[quote=vicariously]
I think that male circumcision isn't a women's rights issue, it's a men's right issue.
[/quote]

Yeah. Which goes all the way back to my original post in this thread. It goes both ways. There's sexism and general crap from both sides. Men are not the dominating sex anymore, but idiosyncrasies in the way we treat things (regarding sex) still remains... sometimes it sexist towards women, sometimes towards men. And it is in my opinion... what better way than call yourself a humanist and try to iron it out?

[quote=Darkwizzie]Yes, it is a cultural thing, and it pains me that some people get it worse simply because they were born into a different culture. It most definitely isn't the baby's fault where the baby is born.

I'm most definitely not saying Feminists cause male mutilation at all. But it's this culture, once again, that's preventing guys from making it illegal. It's hard to illegalize anything that is already mainstream, that is true. And that's a problem. I mean, lots of guys are told, be tough, just suck it up, be a man. Quite crying, you're a guy. That's just another factor contributing to this... we're also a very Christian nation, religion may have something to do with it.

My point here being, we need to be ever vigilant in these cases. Every case, we need to try to look at it objectively and ask ourselves whether this is sexism, or somebody being hyper-sensitive, or maybe we're being hypo-sensitive. I said I feel the Feminist cause isn't as vital today, but I still think it serves a purpose, I am just inclined to believe at this stage of our society, it would easier if we all just call ourselves humanists. Maybe that way we'll be on guard to sexism no matter which direction it goes.[/quote]
Yeah, humanists is not going to catch on.
If you agree feminists aren't causing male mutilation, then I think we're getting to the main reason why we disagree on certain issues.
I think that male circumcision isn't a women's rights issue, it's a men's rights issue. Feminism became less about gender equality and more about empowering women. There's nothing wrong with that, except people tend to think men's rights contradict women's rights. That's how feminists think, and that's how anti-feminists think. As long as people keep on thinking that, humanist issues and men's rights issues aren't going get popular support.

@Mechace117: Can you elaborate on why it's considered wrong?
@Darkwizzie: I agree. Sure we can't achieve true egalitarianism, but it's worth fighting for nonetheless.

By the definition Feminism, it's for equality. If it's female supremacy, it's female supremacy disguised as Feminism. There's nothing intrinsically negative about wanting equality. It's about how you go about achieving that and what you consider inequal.

So when people are pissed at Feminism, they're pissed perhaps at the Feminist movement, the way it is carried out by some people.

Well, feminism is apparent in today's work environment. Goes hand in hand with age discrimination
In SOME small cases, I would say feminism is deemed ok, but otherwise, it is wrong

[quote=FreeeeBlekSlave]@Darkwizzie: I said [b]most[/b], and I'm talking about fat people in general. This is my opinion. Would it not be easier to blame it on genetics than to blame themselves to make everyday go by easier? Of course there are people who know they're at fault, but in my opinion I think a lot of them gobble up all this sugar coating for why they're fat, called genetics.[/quote]

TBH I don't have any fat friends. They're all skinny like me, now I think about it... Actually now I think about it, there are not even that many chubbier people in my school to begin with. o.o

[quote=Vicariously]Well, it's difficult because circumcision is such a cultural thing. I'm a woman and I can't really comment on it objectively. Some men are okay with male circumcision being legal, and some men aren't. It's not like feminists are control the government and commanding all the doctors to mutilate the genitalia of baby boys because men are evil.

Female circumcision is illegal because of feminism, I'll concede that. But male circumcision is still legal because not enough men care about it. Even circumcised men don't care about it, so it's hard to illegalize something that's already mainstream.[/quote]

Yes, it is a cultural thing, and it pains me that some people get it worse simply because they were born into a different culture. It most definitely isn't the baby's fault where the baby is born.

I'm most definitely not saying Feminists cause male mutilation at all. But it's this culture, once again, that's preventing guys from making it illegal. The public perception is set on what it believes. It's hard to illegalize anything that is already mainstream, that is true. And that's a problem. I mean, lots of guys are told, be tough, just suck it up, be a man. Quite crying, you're a guy. That's just another factor contributing to this... we're also a very Christian nation, religion may have something to do with it.

My point here being, we need to be ever vigilant in these cases. Every case, we need to try to look at it objectively and ask ourselves whether this is sexism, or somebody being hyper-sensitive, or maybe we're being hypo-sensitive. I said I feel the Feminist cause isn't as vital today, but I still think it serves a purpose, I am just inclined to believe at this stage of our society, it would easier if we all just call ourselves humanists. Maybe that way we'll be on guard to sexism no matter which direction it goes.

[quote=Darkwizzie]That's not a refutation.
I'm sure there are females that felt they deserved being infibulated, having a twine tied up and opened only by her man on her wedding night. That doesn't justify anything. It's about the way you were raised. Circumcision may be considered the highest good as it has been in the past. So has religious fanaticism. So has Nazism, with the Nazi Youth Program. The fact that one individual person did not find this mutilation troubling doesn't negate the suffering of other children. it doesn't negate the fact that this shouldn't have been done in the first place, and it serves no purpose.

I must admit I find the trivializing of circumcision, the likening of it to piercings (I don't really see parents piercing their babies anyways, often people do it themselves on their own free will), to be insulting.[/quote]
Well, it's difficult because circumcision is such a cultural thing. I'm a woman and I can't really comment on it objectively. Some men are okay with male circumcision being legal, and some men aren't. It's not like feminists are control the government and commanding all the doctors to mutilate the genitalia of baby boys because men are evil.

Female circumcision is illegal because of feminism, I'll concede that. But male circumcision is still legal because not enough men care about it. Even circumcised men don't care about it, so it's hard to illegalize something that's already mainstream.

[quote=FreeeeBlekSlave]No matter how you try to explain that most of them are fat just because they eat way too much crap, they will always blame genetics.[/quote]

If by they you mean all 'fat' females, then you generalize too much. I'm sure there are girls who say 'I like ice cream. And I'm ****** lazy. IDC.'

[quote=vicariously]
My boyfriend was circumcised, and he doesn't feel like he was abused or mutilated. He still loves his parents.
[/quote]
That's not a refutation.
I'm sure there are females that felt they deserved being infibulated, having a twine tied up and opened only by her man on her wedding night. That doesn't justify anything. It's about the way you were raised. Circumcision may be considered the highest good as it has been in the past. So has religious fanaticism. So has Nazism, with the Nazi Youth Program. The fact that one individual person did not find this mutilation troubling doesn't negate the suffering of other children. it doesn't negate the fact that this shouldn't have been done in the first place, and it serves no purpose.

I must admit I find the trivializing of circumcision, the likening of it to piercings (I don't really see parents piercing their babies anyways, often people do it themselves on their own free will), to be insulting. We ought not to cut at the sensitive sexual areas of young boys if we need not to. Don't' cut it off it it's functioning. This is a lack of respect to the child's body.

[quote=freeblekslave]
Fat people can't lose weight...
[/quote]
Yeah, a lot of it may be genetics. But that doesn't mean you can't lose weight. If the genes hate you, yeah, it will be hell to get where you want to go, but it's possible.

[quote=Darkwizzie]But this was on TV in front of an audience. How you react to news stories like that is different. Also, to some of the ladies I may presume, hearing it on the show was not the first time they heard it. It's safe to assume they've heard it before and had another good laugh about it. It wasn't a quick chuckle, either. One lady actually suggested that this was inappropriate, blah blah. Nobody else listening. The audience didn't care. I don't see news reporters laughing about burned victims, or Jon Stewart laughing about a girl getting [forcibly had sex with]. Hahahaha, she got [forcibly had sex with], that's so funny.

While I may be more inclined to agree with you on the Family Guy example (although I've never watched it so I can't really comment on it), your circumcision point is off. The foreskin of a baby boy is fused onto the peen. You have to clip it off and there is blood EVERYWHERE. I've watched live dissections of an 80 year old lady who died. I've watched surgery. But I could not bear watching that little baby suffer. I have an acquaintance who lives in Israel, where they circumcise babies the old fashioned way. And trust me, you do not want to be the person that equates circumcision to ear piercings when you're there live and in person. The pain, the blood, the pointlessness of it...

We all know the male peen is quite sensitive... if it gets caught in the zipper, it can get prettyyyyyy bad. Now imagine how bad it would be if I clipped skin off it and cut it off with scissors. While you're a helpless baby, given a procedure of which you were not asked for consent.[/quote]
Actually, people do laugh. There's an entire show dedicated to making fun of people who die or get hurt in stupid ways. It's called 1001 ways to die, and people basically mock the men and women who die for no good reason. I watched one episodes where a guy was acting like a jerk to other people. He then swam in an exotic river looking for gold, until a small candiru fish swam up his urethra and bit him. The narrator basically said he deserved to die, meanwhile he bled to death. It's a really horrible show and I try not to watch it, but it's popular because people like laughing at horrible things. If you look hard enough, there are probably episodes about burn victims, and make even sexual abuse.

My boyfriend was circumcised, and he doesn't feel like he was abused or mutilated. He still loves his parents.

EDIT: http://1000waystodie.wikia.com/wiki/Catch_and_Decease

[quote=freeeeblekslave]
I have yet to meet one actual feminist who isn't looking for female domination.
[/quote]
Too unfortunate, I know of at least one. And she doesn't really talk about Feminism that much.

[quote=uphailure]
I'm not saying that there isn't sexism towards men though, because there is, but you can't deny that males have it easier. Sure dressing attractively is fine, but the fact that dressing a certain way means that you "deserve to get assaulted" is ridiculous and disgusting. Also if you're not sexed up enough, you're seen as a "prude" and not up to the incredibly high standards that society has set up for females.
[/quote]

The problem here isn't that when females wear scantily clad outfits, they asked for it but when men do it, they're not. The problem is we use that as a serious excuse in the first place, and pretty much always against females because it's rare for females to r4p3 males. I see where you're coming from and I'm not quite sure how exactly to fix the r4p3 culture you speak of.

@Darkwizzie: Yeah I agree with your point on feminism, it's meant to achieve equality, not female supremacy as you said. I also believe that some feminists are way too radical with their approach for "equality", and they instead are seen as misandrists... Kinda hypocritical if you ask me. I think that objectification of women can add fuel to r4p3 culture though, since it reduces females to sex objects that must look and behave a certain way to please men. There have been way too many times that a female has been blamed for getting assaulted because of the way they dress or because they "should've known better". Here's a blog which contains confessions from females subject to sexism and a number of other things: http://i-once-had-a-guy-tell-me.tumblr.com/

I'm not saying that there isn't sexism towards men though, because there is, but you can't deny that males have it easier. Sure dressing attractively is fine, but the fact that dressing a certain way means that you "deserve to get assaulted" is ridiculous and disgusting. Also if you're not sexed up enough, you're seen as a "prude" and not up to the incredibly high standards that society has set up for females.

Yeah I understand, I don't think I identify myself as a feminist either... I dunno.

@FrenchVanilla: White people are (generally) ignorant of their white privilege and feel like they're treated equally as bad as people who aren't white, you should read about Jane Elliott's Blue eyed/brown eyed test. Basically white people feel like (for example) being "fat" is equal to that of a non-white person experiencing racism on a daily basis. You can change your weight problem, but the skin colour you have is a part of you and cannot be changed.

[b]Edit:[/b] @FreeeeBlekSlave: Not all fat people suffer from genetics though, but I'm sorry for generalising, I did not take into account genetics. I did not realise jews have the most privilege so I'll take that into account next time. Me generalising again. Sorry! I just repeated myself twice, lol.

Would men ever feel threatened walking alone in the middle of the night? Most likely not, right? Women are expected to prevent themselves from getting taken advantaged of and if they don't, they're to blame if anything happens to them. Regarding the Steubenville case, the media projects the offenders as boys with promising futures and that they somehow don't deserve to have their life ruined. They paid no attention to the actual victim and how HER life is ruined, being taken advantaged of is traumatic.

[quote=vicariously]
Although I agree with your general sentiment that everyone is a bit sexist, I have to note that my boyfriend also laughed when he first heard the chopping off thing, too. And then he saw all the serious comments and he felt uncomfortable.
People laugh at ridiculously horrible events because that's what people do. It has nothing to do with politics or feminism.
[/quote]

But this was on TV in front of an audience. How you react to news stories like that is different. Also, to some of the ladies I may presume, hearing it on the show was not the first time they heard it. It's safe to assume they've heard it before and had another good laugh about it. It wasn't a quick chuckle, either. One lady actually suggested that this was inappropriate, blah blah. Nobody else listening. The audience didn't care. I don't see news reporters laughing about burned victims, or Jon Stewart laughing about a girl getting [forcibly had sex with]. Hahahaha, she got [forcibly had sex with], that's so funny.

While I may be more inclined to agree with you on the Family Guy example (although I've never watched it so I can't really comment on it), your circumcision point is off. The foreskin of a baby boy is fused onto the peen. You have to clip it off and there is blood EVERYWHERE. I've watched live dissections of an 80 year old lady who died. I've watched surgery. But I could not bear watching that little baby suffer. I have an acquaintance who lives in Israel, where they circumcise babies the old fashioned way. And trust me, you do not want to be the person that equates circumcision to ear piercings when you're there live and in person. The pain, the blood, the pointlessness of it...

We all know the male peen is quite sensitive... if it gets caught in the zipper, it can get prettyyyyyy bad. Now imagine how bad it would be if I clipped skin off it and cut it off with scissors. While you're a helpless baby, given a procedure of which you were not asked for consent, making a permanent modification and possibly a degradation of your sexual function. If a somebody comes at my p3n1s with scissors, I'm getting the hell outta there. The prospect of that happening frightens me to death, and it stands to reason it'd frighten the baby too.

[quote=uphailure]@Vicariously: Your viewpoint on either will be fine![/quote]
Well, that's even more complicated because the USA have the tendency to interfere in the affairs of other countries. The world in general still needs feminism.
Here's a story from a couple years ago that should illustrate why feminism is still needed in the world, but how feminism can also be dangerous: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/sep/16/india.gender
It's about a man who sexually abused many women simply because they were "untouchables", and he always gets away with it. The police would laugh at the women, too (if you understand India's caste system, it's not surprising how disgusting this is). While in court, the man promised to victimize all the women again. Outraged, hundreds of women stormed the courtroom and killed him. Read the whole story for more details.

I think in the world and in the USA, feminism might be useful, but it became too aggressive.

For cases like Steubenville and [url=http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/2013/03/2013314232414150119.html]this[/url], I think they're terrible. What's even more frightening is that some people (like the perpetrators of the Steubenville case) didn't think it was illegal to smack someone with their genitals and finger an unconscious person. I don't know maybe I'm old-fashioned, but is what they were doing suppose to be normal in society?

[quote=Darkwizzie]There's sexism going both ways. Some feel being a humanist is too broad and won't get to the point as effectively. Feminism isn't female supremacy, those are two different things and some 'feminists' forget that. And what is wrong with being objectified? It's the admittance of your sexual market value. I heard an amusing story once; two 20 year olds came to Europe once, and the Europeans kept hitting on her. They were furious. They came back when they were 40 and they were furious men weren't hitting on them.

As long as people objectify each other in a non-ridiculous, healthy, non-sadomasochistic way, it's fine and it's not news. This isn't a one-way street. We go out and we dress up, people do these things to look good, or 'cute'. What for? Sexual attractiveness. When men find you attractive, and you find them creepy because they are not hot, you need to realize that's what you were going for; to be attractive to the opposite sex. Subconsciously or consciously, that was your intent.

Females tend to earn a bit less not because of discrimination, but because they tend to have different priorities. Men have a bit higher tendency to be workaholics and neglect their family.

I mean, I can argue when the ladies of the View laughed over and over and the chopping of a man's p**** by her ex-girlfriend who then threw it in the trash, that's blatant sexism. Nothing happened to them. Had they been guys who laughed about the infibulation of females, the guys would basically have ended their entire career. And that's another thing; mutilation of female in this place is not ok, but the same is ok for males.

The case for feminism, I find, to be not so urgent anymore. Of course we need to be ever-vigilant, but I feel calling myself a humanist is fine. You bring bullcrap over to males or females, and I'll call you out on it.[/quote]
Although I agree with your general sentiment that everyone is a bit sexist, I have to note that my boyfriend also laughed when he first heard the chopping off thing. And then he saw all the serious comments and he felt uncomfortable.
People laugh at ridiculously horrible events because that's what people do. It has nothing to do with politics or feminism.

I mean, David Cook got a lot of criticism for joking about the Aurora Shooting, but his career didn't end. People are joking about how Breaking Bad inspired a guy to send ricin-laced letters to politicians, but no one takes it seriously. Or how about when Family Guy dedicated an entire episode making fun of [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5qyHEYeGNM] women who are abused by their husbands?[/url] You don't hear feminists making such a big deal about it. At least, not as much as men making a big deal about women on The View laughing. People are even defending Family Guy for making an episode about a woman being abused.
I think you're overreacting.
And calling circumcision mutilation is like saying piercing a baby's ears is mutilation, but you wouldn't consider piercing ears to be child abuse, would you? The medical risks are different.

[quote=FreeeeBlekSlave]
It's a mental illness, they really should be treated properly. Have you seen radical feminists? They're batpoop crazy
[/quote]
You realize that's not feminism by definition, right? Things get out of hand for some morons, it is true. But it can go the other way as well.

[quote=cronsky]
Check out some of the videos made by 'TheAmazingAtheist' about feminism.
[/quote]
It's decent, but for those quite serious about this, they can visit 'GirlWritesWhat', who specializes on this kind of stuff. Her analysis is much deeper.

--
And I don't claim to be an expert on Feminism... my specialty is religion, not Feminism. I've discussed this stuff with some people on my Facebook discussion group, and they bring up points I have not thought of.

Either way, both genders are taking advantage of each other. In other words, both sides are mistreating each other. It's basically like the black and white issue. When a black person talks badly on the whites, it's fine. When the white talks badly on the blacks, it's racists. Both sides are talking crap on each other though.

Usually the public gets the broad perspective of each side which brings in broad interpretations whether it is fair or not. For example, yahoo news...

There's sexism going both ways. Some feel being a humanist is too broad and won't get to the point as effectively. Feminism isn't female supremacy, those are two different things and some 'feminists' forget that. And what is wrong with being objectified? It's the admittance of your sexual market value. I heard an amusing story once; two 20 year olds came to Europe once, and the Europeans kept hitting on her. They were furious. They came back when they were 40 and they were furious men weren't hitting on them.

As long as people objectify each other in a non-ridiculous, healthy, non-sadomasochistic way, it's fine and it's not news. This isn't a one-way street. We go out and we dress up, people do these things to look good, or 'cute'. What for? Sexual attractiveness. When men find you attractive, and you find them creepy because they are not hot, you need to realize that's what you were going for; to be attractive to the opposite sex. Subconsciously or consciously, that was your intent.

Females tend to earn a bit less not because of discrimination, but because they tend to have different priorities. Men have a bit higher tendency to be workaholics and neglect their family.

I mean, I can argue when the ladies of the View laughed over and over and the chopping of a man's p**** by her ex-girlfriend who then threw it in the trash, that's blatant sexism. Nothing happened to them. Had they been guys who laughed about the infibulation of females, the guys would basically have ended their entire career. And that's another thing; mutilation of female in this place is not ok, but the same is ok for males.

The case for feminism, I find, to be not so urgent anymore. Of course we need to be ever-vigilant, but I feel calling myself a humanist is fine. You bring bullcrap over to males or females, and I'll call you out on it.

Generally, women are treated a lot better than before. I actually think in some jobs (such as intense labour like lifting heavy loads of boxes or whatnot) women should be paid less, and they are, because they simply can't do the job as well as men.

@Vicariously: Your viewpoint on either will be fine!
@MasterKEVQN: There have been plenty of discussions on "hot topics" on Basil, feminism can't be any worse.
@fmonglobal: Unfortunately there are still wage gaps between males and females, including corporate jobs which don't require physical activity like you said with labour-heavy jobs.

Well, what do you mean by "our society"? Only the USA or the world in general?