General

@DarkClaw: Phil Jackson likes to be in limelight a lot.

@desimator546: Blah blah blah yeah right okay that's what they all say.

You guys don't know anything about basketball. Kobe is the best scorer in the history of the NBA over Jordan? LeBron already a top 3 overall player. None of you were alive at the time Magic played. I'm done with this thread.

@DarkClaw: Yea Russell is that low to me. He has 11 rings, but all of them came when there weren't that many teams in the league. Dr. J should be up there, 30k points combined in NBA/ABA

screw the heat! Celtics nation all day!

@BlueColt: That's what I'm saying. LeBron is an all-around player who can score. He's not known for scoring but for his all-around play. Just like Jordan was known as a scorer but could play an all-around game. I know what LeBron did pre-Miami, I was a LeBron fan. Grant played on their first championship 3peat-run. He didn't play with the second 3 peat. Rodman did. Kerr/Paxson were spot up jumpshooters for all of their careers. They couldn't do anything but shoot. PG sized but couldn't even dribble. Yes, Paxson hit that game winner and so did Kerr. But that's because they doubled LeBron. Ray Allen hit that 3 off a Bosh off. rebound. Truthfully, Chalmers is better than Paxson/Kerr. Jordan wishes he had another hall-of-famer coming off bench that played like Ray or at the very least like Mike Miller/Battier. Yes, I remember the Bulls making it to the ECF. They brought in more help during those season. Toni Kukoc who I think won 6th man of the year one of those years. Pippen had a career-best season. After LeBron left the Cavs, the Cavs wanted to become the worst team in the league. They traded for Baron Davis' expiring contract and acquired a pick that turned out to be Kyrie. They'll continue to lose until they feel they have a good young core. They're going with the OKC approach. LeBron at age 29 (?) is not better than MJ. You can't denote what MJ did. Wait till LeBron finishes his career and we'll talk. If LeBron were to retire for from basketball and not come back, are you going tell me he's better than MJ was?

I don't hate the Heats I just don't like Lebron. Yes he's a good player but his attitude just sucks. That whole Cleveland to Miami was just stupid and drama full. But damn the entire series was intense. During game 6 when Lebron made that 3 and then Allen popped that 3 it was just insane. Ginobili did get fouled but the refs didn't call it. Even if they did it wouldn't have guaranteed a win though. But next season go Lakers! Kobe is gonna make a comeback even after that torn Achilles

[quote=BlueColt]G.O.A.T. LeBron James [/quote]

G.O.A.T and LeBron shouldn't be put in the same sentence unless you add in flopping, or crying to the refs.

Edit: Kareem and Wilt are above Jordan and LeBron in terms of scoring.

@YourPirateGuy Charles Oakley? Orlando Woolridge? Whatever...

To start, MVPs are not team accomplishments. It is awarded to the player who played the best during the regular season. Your teammates don't have anything to do with it. And it doesn't matter what team you play on. I don't think any team LeBron would be on with those numbers can be a losing team. If the MVP was doing the best, then surely his team wouldn't be below .500? If the most valuable player in the league is on your team, you wouldn't have a team like that. Just saying.

BUT, LeBron's 27 PPG does not define him as a scorer. A scorer is someone whose priority and role is to score. An all-around player can be great scoring-wise but if he's also effective in all other stats, he is not necessarily a scorer. Jordan MAYBE was an all-around player but he was only known for his scoring ability and good defense. His rebounds and assists weren't as efficient as James, though. My point when I say that Jordan was 1-10 in the playoffs is to show that he had a good supporting cast and needed other talents surrounding him to win championships. When LeBron was in his pre-Miami years with little to no help, he still took them to seasons like 66-16, 60-22, 57-25, etc.

Who did the Bulls have when Jordan was around besides Pippen and Grant? Rodman. John Paxson. Steve Kerr. If you didn't notice, for one of Jordan's finals wins he can thank John Paxson for hitting a game-winner to seal the deal, much like Ray Allen's Game 6 tying 3-point shot that sent the Heat into overtime with SAS and eventually won the game for them. Steve Kerr was the 3-point shooter for the Bulls, therefore Rodman's inconsistent jumper, as you mentioned, wasn't needed. The team Jordan had consisted of players playing different roles which eventually covered every aspect of the game the Bulls needed to beat teams and eventually grab 6 championships. We don't need to look at "Did Dennis Rodman have a consistent jumper? Good offensively?". We just need to look at: if Jordan didn't have Pippen or Grant or Rodman or the team he had, he wouldn't have won any championships, proven by the fact that the absence of Jordan's supporting cast beforehand made him 9.1% in the playoffs.

Please don't act like when Jordan had actually started to win championships that he didn't have anyone around him "besides Pippen and Grant".

Remember the years Jordan left the Bulls to play baseball? Without him, the Bulls still made it to the ECF. After LeBron left the Cavs, they became the worst team in the league... if you combine that with the numbers in James stat-line night after night, you can clearly see why James is a better player. You can clearly see why he makes a bigger difference than Jordan did. You (not specifically you, but Jordan fans overall) can boast about how Jordan has four more championships than LeBron does, but that's irrelevant because we're comparing players here... if you compare teams, then you can bring up the championships, because, like I said, championships aren't won by a single NBA player. While it goes for LeBron too, it goes for Jordan as well, so that means rings overall cannot be something you can argue.

Look at stats, look at MVPs, look at things that actually show the greatness of a player as an individual.

Quick note: Championships are won with team efforts and strong play from the supporting cast. Should not be the only thing used to evaluate the greats.

[quote=DarkClaw]I Believe Kobe is 2nd behind Jordan, I agree that is arguable, but I think he is top 5 for sure, it may change, but as of today, Kobe Bryant is the only player comparable to MJ.
Magic Johnson tweeted this year that Kobe is the closest thing to MJ he's ever seen
Mark Jackson said that he never thought he'd say it after playing against MJ for so long but one day Kobe will go down as the G.O.A.T.
Charles Barkley said Kobe is a top 5 of all time
Phil Jackson said that when Kobe is hot, he is the best scorer in league's history
Gary Payton said this year that Kobe is better then LBJ and KD
I can go on and on but I'd rather people to actually read this and not skip it because it's too long.

While we are on the subject, here is my top 10 all time (I'm not including Durant because he's too young)
1.MJ
2.Kobe
3.Russel
4.Magic
5.Kareem
6. Wilt Chamberlain
7.LeBron(from now on, for me, each championship will get him 1 spot higher)
8.Bird
9.Duncan
10.Oscar Robertson
Next 5: Shaq, Olajuwon, West, Malone, Stockton
I feel like I'm forgetting someone....[/quote]

I got

1.MJ
2.Magic
3.Bird
4. Kareem
5. Kobe
6. Hakeem (yes, Hakeem is this high for ME)
7. Duncan
8. Wilt
9. Russell
10. LeBron

@BlueColt: Let's get this straight. I bet you can't name anyone on Jordan's team when he went 1-10, most of them were no names. LeBron may have made it to the finals with probably the worst team to make it to the finals (other than A.I's 76ers against the Lakers), but he went nowhere. He was shutdown for most of the series, resorted to jumpshots and averaged 22ish ppg? I said he has one of the best supporting casts in the league, not of all time. He does have 3 future hall of famers next to him though (yes Bosh, will be a HoF as long as he plays with the Heat and continues to win championships). Chris Bosh took 5 shots and LeBron/Wade the whole damn Heat team didn't bother giving the ball to him in the post. He's a jumpshooting 4 that gets paid 19 million yearly (? or is it 16, can't remember). Other than Pippen/Grant in Jordan's 1st 3 peat, who did Jordan have? Grant had a solid NBA player, but I'm not sure if he'll go down as a HoF'er. Rodman was great defensively and pound-for-pound one of the best rebounders of all time. But what could he do for you offensively? Could he hit a jumpshot consistently?

Keep in mind Jordan had Pippen next to him and they put up similar reb/apg. Jordan's Bulls team needed him to dominate and score 33+ on a nightly basis for them to win. He did what was necessary for them to win. He played great defense and locked down star players and certain nights. Reason why he led his team to 72-10. Jordan is an all-around player BUT was known for his scoring. LeBron is an all around player and is known for his all-around play. LeBron averaged 27 ppg this season, are you gonna tell me he's not a scorer? Let's stop getting into Scottie's opinions. LeBron is the better all-around player. But you're trying to denote the fact that Jordan wasn't an all-around player. Jordan was an all around player. But to say LeBron is the G.O.A.T at 28 is dumb. He might as well retire now then, he has all the $ he needs to retire and he's already the G.O.A.T. Might as well retire right? Wrong. He's chasing 6 championships for a reason. You're right about the MVP. But, MVP is also a team accomplishment. If LeBron averaged 27/7/7 on a losing team (didn't make it to the playoffs/-.500), do you think he'd win MVP? No. If Championships are team accomplishments then that means [b]team[/b] records are team accomplishments. People will get bored of voting LeBron for MVP like they got bored of MJ.

@HannahMontanas: LOL Larry isn't higher than Kobe or LeBron. Duncan will be top 10. Dirk top 30, and KG around that as well.

@YourPirateGuy: "Let me know when LeBron goes 72-10 in a season." <---- that shows NOTHING of what you do necessary to help your team win.

LeBron's teammates have a combined 30 all-star appearances? Let me know what that becomes a total of when they're actually LeBron's teammate at the time.

Oh, no, did you try to say that LeBron had a better supporting cast than Jordan? Do I need to remind you that Jordan was 1-10 in the playoffs before Scottie Pippen was his teammate? And then when Pippen came along, they started to win championships. Don't forget Rodman either. What did LeBron have? He took a 2007 Cavs team to the Finals ALL BY HIMSELF, with a team like Daniel Gibson, Larry Hughes, Sasha Pavlovic, Drew Gooden, Delonte West, and Wally Szczerbiak. Then James goes to Miami where he has one of the best supporting casts of all-time? What? You mean like a hobbled Wade who can't score as much as he used to? (I'll admit his impressive performances in Games 4 and 7 of the Finals) You mean like Chris Bosh who had 0 points in Game 7 with 5 fouls? (but I'll also admit he was part of the reason why the Heat were still in it) Game 7 against San Antonio LeBron had 37 points and 12 rebounds. At least James was efficient before his supporting cast came along, he led the Cavs to title contenders year after year, and again, before Jordan's supporting cast came along, he was 1-10 in the playoffs.

What I meant by LeBron can do everything necessary to help his team win is that he helps his team win with his overall all-around greatness, NOT going 72-10 in a season. The only thing that proves is that you had an amazing team around you. He can rebound, assist, score, defend, etc., everything necessary to help your team win. And if you haven't already noticed, James just led the Heat to a 66-16 season with a historic 27-game win streak. (like I said, that shows he had a great team around him but James was by far the biggest part of that)

Jordan is NOT an all-around player, he was a SCORER. LeBron James is an all-around player. Okay Jordan had the triple-double span. But Jordan was KNOWN for only scoring and defending. He didn't rebound, assist, etc. as much as LeBron can which makes LeBron a better all-around player by far. Sure, Jordan can do some of that stuff... not as much as LeBron can. Why did Scottie Pippen, JORDAN'S FORMER TEAMMATE, say that Jordan was the best scorer, but LeBron is the greatest to ever play the game of basketball... when Jordan's own former teammate, Scottie Pippen, says that Jordan is the best scorer and James is the best all-around player, that pretty much means a lot.

Here's another thing that I can prove that James is a better all-around player: Wilt Chamberlain leads the NBA in league history for most games leading your team in points, rebounds, and assists with 118. James already has 96 and he's only 28 years old. Jordan has 43 and has been retired for a decade now.

Don't bring rings into this discussion, because rings are team accomplishments, not individual accomplishments. MVPs determine how good of an individual player you are, and LeBron has 4 and Jordan has 5. But guess what? James is 28, and Jordan is 50 (literally).

@BlueColt: Jordan could only score and defend. You do realize at one point Jordan had 7 consecutive triple doubles and had 10 triple doubles in a 12 game span. He was known for scoring, don't try to take away the fact that Jordan wasn't a great all-around player. LeBron can do everything necessary to help his team win? Let me know when LeBron goes 72-10 in a season. Also, keep in mind that at the time Jordan's 2nd championship; his teammates had a combined 3 all star appearances. At the time of LeBron's 2nd championship, his teammates have a combined 30 all-star appearances. Jordan didn't do it alone, but he had Scottie/Grant. LeBron has one of the best supporting casts in the NBA, if not the best. Jordan never dropped underneath 6 rpg/4 apg in the 90s. Led the league in steals 3 times. Shot .539% FG from shooting A LOT of jumpshots. Let's be serious, LeBron's fg% is impressive but he gets most of his points at the rim. What G.O.A.T struggles for the first 5 games of the finals (by his standards). The biggest stat of all is that Jordan is 6-0 in the finals and LeBron is 2-2.

@DarkClaw: Statistics are just numbers. We can't compare statistics from different eras, that means nothing.
And no I don't think he's the best of all time, I do respect LBJs game though

@DarkClaw: See that's the point you're missing. Don't bring up RINGS when you're comparing players, rings are team accomplishments, so bring them up when you're comparing teams.

"In what world 28 is young?"? Sorry, but not only is that improper grammar however 28 is young in the basketball world to break it to you, maybe not in real life. As NBA fans, we mean young as in has a long way to go.

LeBron James is NOT a scorer, yes, do you know why? Because he is an all-around player and that's what makes him the G.O.A.T. Yet with all the works he does with his passing, rebounds, and defense, he still is an efficient scorer, being the scoring champ one year and averaging 26.2 PPG in the 2012-2013 regular season.

"You can't call a guy with 2 championships the G.O.A.T., It just doesn't make sense, ask any professional." <--- Sorry man, but this is illogical.

You can indeed call a guy with 2 championships the G.O.A.T, in fact, you can call a guy with 0 championships the G.O.A.T, it doesn't matter how many rings someone has to be good, again like I said before, RINGS show how good of a TEAM you had. MVPs determine how good of an individual you are, they determine how good of a player you are, not rings. Rings, for the third time, show team accomplishments, no one has ever won a ring by himself, and thank Shaquille O'Neal for 3 of Kobe's rings.

Jordan has 5 MVPs, Kobe has 1 MVP, and LeBron has 4 MVPs. But guess what? LeBron is 28 years old, Kobe is 34 years old, and Jordan is 50 years old (literally).

Ask any professional, you say? Magic Johnson and Scottie Pippen themselves, Hall of Famers, say LeBron is the GOAT, regardless of his championship total.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLXb9bYagIk

[quote=YourPirateGuy]Yea, LeBron's the G.O.A.T. How old are you? 12?[/quote]

Are you like in your 60s and can't accept the fact that the newer generation will always have a new best? They didn't have that mentality that Bill Russel would remain the GOAT or Kareem when Jordan came to the scene.

[quote=YourPirateGuy]Yea, LeBron's the G.O.A.T. How old are you? 12?[/quote]

No, I'm 22 thank you very much, and know a HELL of a lot more about basketball than you do. May I ask how old you are, mr. tough guy?

LeBron has 4 MVPs at the age of 28, the youngest player to 20,000 points, can play any position in the game, combines strength and speed to become unstoppable and has already 2 rings at a young age. LeBron is great at every aspect of the game, rebounding, assists, defense, scoring, etc....

Wilt Chamberlain leads the NBA in games leading his team in rebounds, assists, and points with 118 in his career total. LeBron has around 10 years ahead of him and already has 96. Jordan has 43. Jordan could only score and defend, while LeBron can do everything necessary to help his team win. So come back with your own dang argument......

i like that one black guy

not a fan of either team but i wanted tim duncan to win his 5th title before retiring

Yea, LeBron's the G.O.A.T. How old are you? 12?

Yep