General

[quote=Veneni]I have to agree mages are pretty bad at bossing (10 min pap solo @ 160 O_o kept dispelling my infinity after 5 seconds *sob*) but training wise, they're as fun as shadowers. Lots of skills that have to be used at the appropriate time*, and infinity to just go nuts every 3 minutes xD It's just pure fun training a mage now, IMO much better than ultimate spamming.

*I do icedemon + teleport stun as an opener, then ice strike + teleport out, while summon does another freeze, then CL + teleport to finish em off. That's a lot of difference then say hero or NL who are more "push this button till mob dies"-classes. *shamelessly adds video* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNldALr_Yls[/quote]

I've been pressing my attack button before you were born! (It gets tiring pressing attack all the time)

But in all seriousness, I've never made an archmage so I'm not too sure how they handle.
They seem kinda fun to play though.

I actually went with max CL, max blizz, max elquines and mw19 as my build. I used to have max infinity but it seemed to tedious to remember to buff it every 3 minutes just because I wanted to see my damage increase. I'm a trainer, not a bosser; which is why I still play my archmage. My damage is decent enough so that I 1-2 hit everything with CL alone, elquines and tele mastery just make it a 100% 1-hit to anything close to me.

I can't see myself playing any other class. The sheer mobility of a mage is something that you don't find with any other class (except for those wannabe BaMs). Yes, my damage is lower than many other classes. Yes, I won't be invited into the best boss runs. Yes, pot lock = undeniable death. But I love this mage, flaws and all.

I've put everything into this I/L and I intend to see it at level 200 one day. All I can ask is that you don't give up either.

[quote=IImaplers]With endgame lvl 163 staves, AMs are in the top 7 in terms of DPM. That's pretty damn great imo.[/quote]

With high or full funding, you wouldnt be even in the top 10 probably due to damage cap. That might put you down to one of the lowest. And let's face it, anyone who can afford a lvl 163 Staff is sure to be pretty funded. Not ripping on you guys, but that is my opinion.

But then again, who is to trust those damage charts people make. They never factor everything into account. Just raw damage.

[quote=razru]Either funding is the issue or your technique at Pap is flawed; especially if a 13x AM can kill pap in around 4-5 minutes. If you stand on the top platforms at Pap, you will avoid Pap's dispel/stun and can continue to hit him with ease. If you try that, it should help your killing time a bit. Other than your first statement I have to agree they are enjoyable for killing mobs with a variety of different skills.[/quote]
:O Didn't knew that, tnx for the tip! Probably useful on my other chars too (Paladin has to rebuff 8 buffs every dispel =_=)
[quote=IcePhoenix]I do agree that playing a mage is fun. I'm not saying it isn't. It's just that look at how many skills have to be gotten to a decent level to be used like that. CL has to be maxed because it only hits 3. Elquines has no range and only a one second freeze until level 11. Ice Demon hits TWO at level one for crying out loud....TWO...some masters of the element >_>; A forward freezing skill would be great to complement our CL and we do get one...except it has to be almost maxed to be anywhere near useful. Archmage skills are fun and stuff but we have to max CL, ID, Elquines and Infinity. That already puts us at level 160 at least...not to mention the fact we'd probably get MW sometime in between. To be able to train efficiently, we need to get to level 165? That's just...idiotic >_>;

About pap, I hate infinity dispel too x_x Every 2 seconds...and then 3 minute cooldown. It's probably my technique though. I should hide on the top platforms, but I get blown off by the bombs >: /[/quote]
Hmm I guess thats true D: But it does makes you motivated to level past 130, where pre-bb if you maxed blizzard you were pretty much set for 200.

[quote=Veneni]I have to agree mages are pretty bad at bossing (10 min pap solo @ 160 O_o kept dispelling my infinity after 5 seconds *sob*) but training wise, they're as fun as shadowers. Lots of skills that have to be used at the appropriate time*, and infinity to just go nuts every 3 minutes xD It's just pure fun training a mage now, IMO much better than ultimate spamming.

*I do icedemon + teleport stun as an opener, then ice strike + teleport out, while summon does another freeze, then CL + teleport to finish em off. That's a lot of difference then say hero or NL who are more "push this button till mob dies"-classes. *shamelessly adds video* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNldALr_Yls[/quote]

I do agree that playing a mage is fun. I'm not saying it isn't. It's just that look at how many skills have to be gotten to a decent level to be used like that. CL has to be maxed because it only hits 3. Elquines has no range and only a one second freeze until level 11. Ice Demon hits TWO at level one for crying out loud....TWO...some masters of the element >_>; A forward freezing skill would be great to complement our CL and we do get one...except it has to be almost maxed to be anywhere near useful. Archmage skills are fun and stuff but we have to max CL, ID, Elquines and Infinity. That already puts us at level 160 at least...not to mention the fact we'd probably get MW sometime in between. To be able to train efficiently, we need to get to level 165? That's just...idiotic >_>;

About pap, I hate infinity dispel too x_x Every 2 seconds...and then 3 minute cooldown. It's probably my technique though. I should hide on the top platforms, but I get blown off by the bombs >: /

[quote=Abysseon]Which charts are you looking at?
A 188 funded NL can get a 13 sec pap solo w/o apple: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bF6MqURHqI

The damage cap prevents AMs/Bishops from coming close to that speed:

Godly 200 Bishop at Pap (29 Seconds) (70,000-100,000k range with cheese): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58fLsQSdmr0
Godly 200 I/L at Pap (26 Seconds): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlwkM41vysE&feature=related[/quote]

The NL has an enhance hacked claw and glove. (possibly more)

Here is your solution, fund yourself more, and boss with Thunder Spear. =3

I have to agree mages are pretty bad at bossing (10 min pap solo @ 160 O_o kept dispelling my infinity after 5 seconds *sob*) but training wise, they're as fun as shadowers. Lots of skills that have to be used at the appropriate time*, and infinity to just go nuts every 3 minutes xD It's just pure fun training a mage now, IMO much better than ultimate spamming.

*I do icedemon + teleport stun as an opener, then ice strike + teleport out, while summon does another freeze, then CL + teleport to finish em off. That's a lot of difference then say hero or NL who are more "push this button till mob dies"-classes. *shamelessly adds video* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNldALr_Yls

Meh I'm so over my archmage now, Nexon could remove ele weps completely and i wouldn't care.
We are never going to catch up to other classes, so what's the point?

Having a lot of fun with my slinger, mech, WH and brawler lvl 100, 60, 70 and 80 respectively.
Wish i could transfer all my maxed etc,use,equips slots to my other characters though <_<

Well to be honest, I don't know what to do with my mage anymore, it's just a reminder of what a colossal waste of time it was. I'm still restraining myself from upgrading my mage because I realize how futile it is ><

OT: Hahaha I love how most of the scorned mages here are switching to corsairs xD. Lowest tier dpm to highest.

Poison mist used to be this beautiful skill that didn't care about stats. If you had just been hacked and you were totally naked, you could still mist train if you had a wand. And you would train just as well as your best friend who had perfect gear. Mist didn't care. Mist was cool. Mist's damage was dependent on the monster's HP.

Now mist's damage is dependent on the mage's stats. And it only poisons for ten seconds for some reason, so it's entirely common for a monster to have a good chunk of its HP left when you get back to it. I was really looking forward to training with poison mist after big bang, but I tried it and it was just horrible. The elemental wand changes, the removal of elquines, and the ultimate cooldown meant very little to me. But poison mist training was my favorite training method, and I was disappointed to see it go. I remember ripping through [i]enormous[/i] maps with poison mist and some speed equips (remember, great gear wasn't necessary!) while listening to really fast music, getting some nice EXP, and having a blast; that isn't possible anymore. For the best exp, we're expected to spam paralyze all day err' day, while wearing slow, clunky gear that gives us INT and magic attack. Snoozefest~

edit: But I'm not one of those players who acts like he's stuck to one class. I quit my mage a while ago. A lot of you pissed off people should do that too, even if you don't think you have funding for another class.

[quote=xofantasia]After seeing this thread, I had to post my own thoughts.

I'm appalled by all the pessimism in this thread. When I had picked the mage class, it was for the flashy skills, not for the damage output. I still play my mage for that very reason today. There are some essential mage skills that I believe had been overlooked, such as Teleport (fast transportation) and the long range of CL (this I believe also applies to Ice Strike). Before Big Bang when I had first seen an elemental wand/staff, I had wanted it for the looks and did not know about the elemental boosts until later. Despite the fact that the elemental boosts are no longer in effect, I will still continue using my elemental wand as my endgame weapon because I still think it's cool and it has been the AM trademark weapon. This thread overall motivates me even more (is currently trying to get to lvl 150). Now that's done, to address some of your points:

We have good 1v1 damage output...no..wait...nvm. [b]Actually before Big Bang, AMs had low 1v1 and high mobbing capability. Now it's a little in the middle or evened out. I remember pre-BB that some had wanted to put a CD on ultimates so we can have decent 1v1. It might not be high, but at least it's better than before...[/b]
We have good mobbing capabilities with our multi-hit skills...no...wait...nvm.. [b]Refer to above.[/b]
We have strong weapons that aren't too rare and don't have absurd stat requirements...no..wait..nvm... [b]Consider that the elemental weapons are only obtainable by gach (this did not change), the weps being rare is inevitable. Also, I don't see elemental wands being an absurd stat requirement (requiring no luk), but I do see that for elemental staffs.[/b]
We're wanted in parties for our invaluable party skills...no...wait...nvm.... [b]AMs were not really meant for parties, I believe that Bishops fill that role.[/b]
We can train really fast compared to other classes because we're good at mobbing compared to the rest...no..wait...nvm.....[b]Training really did slow down with the new accuracy system (F/P AM can't mist at high lvl places anymore) and the CD on ultimates, but training generally gets slower at higher levels, no matter the class.[/b]
We have summons that really help our damage output...no...wait...nvm...... [b]In my opinion: summon > no summon.[/b]
We have great solo buffs so we can solo bosses (at a slower pace)...no..wait...nvm.......[b]I finished soloing pap in 12 mins. I consider that fast (not funded).[/b]
We have awesome DoT which stacks so we can do passive damage better than others...no...wait...nvm....... [b]Not sure about this one so not going to comment.[/b]
We can defend maps we're training on because we have superior mobility...no..wait...nvm........(sorta) [b]Doesn't really bother me since I train in ToT, but teleport mastery helps along with other offensive skills. If can't defend maps fully, at least hinder the intruder. I got 2% doing this once.[/b]
We're equal to other classes with equal funding...no..wait...nvm........[b]Don't care about funding so not going to comment on this one.[/b]
We're fun to play...as long as the definition of fun involves being mediocre at pretty much everything in comparison to other classes...no wait...no that's true... [b]Agreed but definition of fun can be different for everyone.[/b][/quote]

Without a doubt archmages are perhaps the most useless class in the game, along with the fact that we seem to get shafted hard by Nexon around every corner. If it weren't for the fact that this is my main and the fact that I do not have the funds to start a new character without selling all my equips, I would have created another class. Teleport doesn't even nearly compensate for 1/10 of the shortcomings that archmages suffer from. CL doesn't even have that long of a range- TT, Battleship, Hurricane, and most all other ranged attacks have more or less the same range as CL. Oh, and CL hits once while most other ranged attacks can hit multiple times and/or faster than CL. CL also has the disadvantage of being affected more by damage cap since a extremely highly funded archmage can hit cap easily, but the fact that CL can hit cap without critical and that it is a single hit skill limits the dpm of it. Elemental weapons are prohibitively expensive (wands 5/6/7/8, staves 5/6/7/8) for the quite a large part of the archmage population. They used to give us some nice elemental bonuses, but now that those bonuses have been deemed "OPed" by lolNexon's fail logic, they are just an average, expensive as hell weapon with a higher base magic attack, with no other apparent uses. Wans 1/2/3/4 and Staves 1/2/3/4 are more or less trinkets and a waste of money now unless you are a Battle Mage.

We have good 1v1 damage output...no..wait...nvm. [b]Actually before Big Bang, AMs had low 1v1 and high mobbing capability. Now it's a little in the middle or evened out. I remember pre-BB that some had wanted to put a CD on ultimates so we can have decent 1v1. It might not be high, but at least it's better than before...[/b]
[i][b]I fail to see how are mobbing abilities are "evened out" when CL is reduced to 3 targets. But wait, we have ice strike! /end sarcasm Most archmages probably are not even strong enough to make ice strike even half efficient damage wise at mid to late 4th job. Ok, we get a cooldown on our AoE attacks, but 1v1? Archmages still are a joke in terms of 1v1, I/L more than F/P, because F/P gets much better DoT and stacks. All archmage main attacks are single hit, meaning they get limited by damage cap, whereas all other classes have a main attack that is multiple hit (Intrepid Slash, Blast, TT, Battleship Cannon, Hurricane, etc). Big Bang is useless dpm wise because it is a charge up skill. And Assassinate owns Big Bang any day.[/b][/i]

We have good mobbing capabilities with our multi-hit skills...no...wait...nvm.. [b]Refer to above.[/b]
[b][i]No we don't. Because it's like we use thunderbolt in 4th job, right? /end sarcasm[/i][/b]

We have strong weapons that aren't too rare and don't have absurd stat requirements...no..wait..nvm... [b]Consider that the elemental weapons are only obtainable by gach (this did not change), the weps being rare is inevitable. Also, I don't see elemental wands being an absurd stat requirement (requiring no luk), but I do see that for elemental staffs.[/b]
[b][i]The only reason that elemental weapons are still optimal weapons now even after the loss of its bonuses is because of their high base magic attack. Only an extremely funded archmage can go virtually luckless and still be able to use an elemental staff 5/6/7/8. Since they come from gach, they're damn expensive for most people out there due to rarity. The only redeeming virtues of elemental wands now are high base magic attack which allows them to get away with being scrolled badly. But according to lolNexon, the bonuses were overpowered. Our damage sucked even with the bonuses, and now it sucks even more.[/i][/b]

We're wanted in parties for our invaluable party skills...no...wait...nvm.... [b]AMs were not really meant for parties, I believe that Bishops fill that role.[/b]
[i][b]Explain how nearly every other class aside from Bishops gets a useful party skill (Paladin has CO, DK has HB, BM/MM/WH have SE, BMage has auras, Pirates have SI and Time Leap, DB has Thorns, etc). What do we get? lolmeditation that benefits nobody except ourselves.[/b][/i]

We have summons that really help our damage output...no...wait...nvm...... [b]In my opinion: summon > no summon.[/b]
[i][b]In my opinion, an additional 50k damage every 3 seconds or so is pretty useless. Archmage summons are god awfully pitifully weak.[/b][/i]

We have great solo buffs so we can solo bosses (at a slower pace)...no..wait...nvm.......[b]I finished soloing pap in 12 mins. I consider that fast (not funded).[/b]
[b][i]Archmages have perhaps one of the slowest boss solo times on average. Pap solo in 12 minutes is slow no matter what perspective you look at it from.[/i][/b]

We have awesome DoT which stacks so we can do passive damage better than others...no...wait...nvm....... [b]Not sure about this one so not going to comment.[/b]
[b][i]F/P DoT is currently glitched in terms of duration and being canceled out when Paralyze is spammed. And Nexon does not look like it has any intention of fixing it anytime soon. Did I mention that archmages get screwed over by Nexon quite often? I/L DoT is a joke. F/P DoT is much better, but it doesn't run the extra mile when compared to other classes high powered attacks.[/i][/b]

We can defend maps we're training on because we have superior mobility...no..wait...nvm........(sorta) [b]Doesn't really bother me since I train in ToT, but teleport mastery helps along with other offensive skills. If can't defend maps fully, at least hinder the intruder. I got 2% doing this once.[/b]
[b][i]Doesn't matter. Most classes are ks-able to some extent.[/i][/b]

We're equal to other classes with equal funding...no..wait...nvm........[b]Don't care about funding so not going to comment on this one.[/b]
[i][b]Impossible to compare archmages to other classes in terms of equal fudning because we suck that much[/b][/i]

We're fun to play...as long as the definition of fun involves being mediocre at pretty much everything in comparison to other classes...no wait...no that's true... [b]Agreed but definition of fun can be different for everyone.[/b][/quote]
[b][i]Looking at your low damage gets depressing after a while.[/i][/b]

We have good 1v1 damage output...no..wait...nvm.[b]If lvl 130 ele wep base magic attack (~150) is used for the DPM chart, we arguably do have pretty good DPM, comparable to warriors.[/b]
We have good mobbing capabilities with our multi-hit skills...no...wait...nvm..[b]F/Ps certainly do, I/Ls aren't far behind because they can finish off the monster quicker with 15% crit on their CL and higher raw damage.[/b]
We have strong weapons that aren't too rare and don't have absurd stat requirements...no..wait..nvm...[b]arguable[/b]
We're wanted in parties for our invaluable party skills...no...wait...nvm....[b]LOLAMs, so true[/b]
We can train really fast compared to other classes because we're good at mobbing compared to the rest...no..wait...nvm.....[b]we do train slightly faster than other classes now, keyword: slightly[/b]
We have summons that really help our damage output...no...wait...nvm......[b]LOL true[/b]
We have great solo buffs so we can solo bosses (at a slower pace)...no..wait...nvm.......[b]we can to some extent, but we usually fail miserably at very high-level bosses. However, I'ved solo'ed Scarlion in like 25 minutes, I've solo-ed zakum in about the same time. As for chaos zakum, horntail, etc, AMs fail there.[/b]
We have awesome DoT which stacks so we can do passive damage better than others...no...wait...nvm.......[b]F/Ps have the capacity to, but our DoT is STILL glitched. LOLNEXON[/b]
We can defend maps we're training on because we have superior mobility...no..wait...nvm........(sorta)[b]not superior in any way, I'd just say decent[/b]
We're equal to other classes with equal funding...no..wait...nvm........[b]in terms of DPM, we outdo a good portion of other classes with lvl 130 non-bonused ele wands, without lvl 130 or higher ele weapons, we are VERY weak compared to other classes[/b]
We're fun to play...as long as the definition of fun involves being mediocre at pretty much everything in comparison to other classes...no wait...no that's true...[b]That definitely is true, I still love playing my AM though [/b]
. .
. Well I'm out of ideas....your turn..
Oh, +10 points for you if you can guess which each of those statements is griping about.

@jono64: Yeah they actually nerf'd CL kinda since it only does 3 monsters now >.>

Silly Nexon makings new classes WAYY too OP and having the ones that idk STARTED THE GAME rot in the back...

[quote=jono64]I agree, we are hopeless.

p.s. guys shouldn't make mages... it's just wrong[/quote]

Agreed... *tear*
BUT ON THE BRIGHT SIDE! all I/L mages 3rd class after chaos the ice strike skill stills mobs up to 6 AND NOW hits either 4-6 times i forgot exactly and the animation looks cooler.

[quote=IcePhoenix]This ten million times over. I'm working on a corsair right now, and I cry everytime I wonder where I could have gotten if I could somehow redirect the effort I put into my mage into that corsair. x_x[/quote]
THIS X 10000000

Agree with OP 100% too

I guess arch mages can still defend a map pretty well from classes like warriors and archers.

[quote=d4rkxStrIfe]Our AoE attacks all have a cooldown implemented. Any class is capable of ksing now, to an extent more or less. You can't deny that the mage class has always been getting the short end of the stick. We completely lack useful party buffs whereas all other classes have a useful buff or attack to compensate. Mages have neither buffs nor attack to compensate. Even if we were to ridiculously fund a mage, it would still fall far below any other class due to the limitations of the damage cap and our main attack skills which are single target (Big Bang does not count since it is a charge up skill and is not factored into dpm). Now, we might have gotten buffed with some new skills and some tweaks, and the magic formula change. But, we also had to forfeit our elemental weapon benefits, which were in no way overpowered, and now, we're virtually a useless class. We have no special training capabilities or bossing capabilities since we get outclassed by a long mile by other classes. Truly, what is the point of making a mage now if there is no incentive to do so? This is the sad reality of things and it probably won't change.[/quote]
I agree, but that's not exactly my point. I understand that the mage class get's continuously screwed, but that's no reason to demotivate other mages. I love this class, I do, but getting screwed isn't fun. I stopped playing my mage for that and a whole bunch of other reasons (hacked, sad face), but regardless, demotivation still isn't fun. I can list a giant amount of things wrong with Corsairs, but I still love it. That's what I'm trying to say, if it makes any sense.

[quote=KamikazeDes]Why are there so many of these threads? Demotivation is NOT something that is appreciated by mages- no, on second thought, any class. Like, geez. Before BB, we weren't successful attackers, and we're not now. Big whoop. We were GIANT ksers, and you can't deny that. Nexon got rid of them for balance purposes. You can't have everything; no class has everything. Cut your loses and move on with your Corsair. You don't have to demotivate other people who actually enjoy their class for other reasons.[/quote]

Our AoE attacks all have a cooldown implemented. Any class is capable of ksing now, to an extent more or less. You can't deny that the mage class has always been getting the short end of the stick. We completely lack useful party buffs whereas all other classes have a useful buff or attack to compensate. Mages have neither buffs nor attack to compensate. Even if we were to ridiculously fund a mage, it would still fall far below any other class due to the limitations of the damage cap and our main attack skills which are single target (Big Bang does not count since it is a charge up skill and is not factored into dpm). Now, we might have gotten buffed with some new skills and some tweaks, and the magic formula change. But, we also had to forfeit our elemental weapon benefits, which were in no way overpowered, and now, we're virtually a useless class. We have no special training capabilities or bossing capabilities since we get outclassed by a long mile by other classes. Truly, what is the point of making a mage now if there is no incentive to do so? This is the sad reality of things and it probably won't change.

Why are there so many of these threads? Demotivation is NOT something that is appreciated by mages- no, on second thought, any class. Like, geez. Before BB, we weren't successful attackers, and we're not now. Big whoop. We were GIANT ksers, and you can't deny that. Nexon got rid of them for balance purposes. You can't have everything; no class has everything. Cut your loses and move on with your Corsair. You don't have to demotivate other people who actually enjoy their class for other reasons.

To think you will be strong and useful only to find out you have wasted your time leveling 120+ levels.

[quote=kirbyhyper][b]You make an Arch Mage if you want to kill yourself over regret of how much time you wasted on it after you quit.[/b]

(this may be a bit subjective but) They're not fun, and they aren't very good at doing anything. This is just my own unlikeable opinion though but they're really pushing it.[/quote]

This ten million times over. I'm working on a corsair right now, and I cry everytime I wonder where I could have gotten if I could somehow redirect the effort I put into my mage into that corsair. x_x

You play it because it's...fun?

You make an Arch Mage if you want to kill yourself over regret of how much time you wasted on it after you quit.

(this may be a bit subjective but) They're not fun, and they aren't very good at doing anything. This is just my own unlikeable opinion though but they're really pushing it.

lol completely agreed TS

Reason for making an Archmage: You're a crazily awesome mage dude with elements flying out of your very fingers. Damage is still respectable (respectable =/= mediocre) in terms of 1v1 if you want to be all fancy and practical about it though.

I'm not denying that archmages can hit the damage cap, but that's a really big restrictions in terms of potential damage output. I mean, if a non critical attack hits the damage cap, then the potential damage from critical hits is more or less ignored. And those videos, they're showcasing the most funded people in this game, I don't think that's exactly a fair comparison to the average mapler like me.

[quote=Abysseon]Which charts are you looking at?
A 188 funded NL can get a 13 sec pap solo w/o apple: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bF6MqURHqI

The damage cap prevents AMs/Bishops from coming close to that speed:

Godly 200 Bishop at Pap (29 Seconds) (70,000-100,000k range with cheese): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58fLsQSdmr0
Godly 200 I/L at Pap (26 Seconds): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlwkM41vysE&feature=related[/quote]

That NL was using an enhance-hacked claw, so I wouldn't compare him to presumably legit players. Though, I do also believe that the damage cap needs to be increased or per attack needs to be increased for F/Ps or I/Ls.

Edit: I'm looking at Dusk's chart from SP.

[quote=Abysseon]How many can afford the 163 staves?
Not to mention battle mages increasing the rarity/price. =/[/quote]

Yea, this is quite the truth. If you change the staff base attack to 150 instead of 125 (because wands aren't used F6), which would make the chart a bit more realistic for AMs as Ewands 5-8 being the end-game weapon, AMs are like 8th-10th in DPM hierarchy, comparable to warriors (outdamaging all warriors except DrKs with threaten), also outdamaging NLs, Marksmen, and very close to DBs. Not exactly fair but respectable imo.

Well compared to preBB and pre balance patch AMs have improved. That's undeniable.

With endgame lvl 163 staves, AMs are in the top 7 in terms of DPM. That's pretty damn great imo.

This thread is not a failure...no...wait...nvm.......