General

[quote=LlamaKing]Orange Mushroom changed its translation. Thank you for the update.[/quote]
would be nice to have old fc range back so i guess we dont have to worry about fc then

[quote=minchuzuk3]Only change is that you don't have to charge it.[/quote]

Orange Mushroom changed its translation. Thank you for the update.

Only change is that you don't have to charge it.

I read the whole thing and i still have no idea what's gonna happen to us now o.o

Lol, I didn't realize we needed to charge for max damage ...

[quote=Voidam]Lol that's not how it works. People say this about their class whenever it gets changed. Nexon doesn't hate any class.[/quote]

It's called hyperbole. A lot of people use it these days

[quote=Stimlexa]As I had been expecting, this is garbage. And how could they say "Although Bowmaster has many hits per second, their actual damage was very low." when they're already stronger than Dual Blades? Nexon just hates us and won't be satisfied until we're gone.[/quote]

Lol that's not how it works. People say this about their class whenever it gets changed. Nexon doesn't hate any class.

lol I don't get what's happening to dbs.

[quote=phantomsl2]wait a second. if you no longer need to charge final cut for maximum damage, why would you need to charge it?[/quote]

You don't need to charge it. I think Nexon just left the charging as a redundant feature.

wait a second. if you no longer need to charge final cut for maximum damage, why would you need to charge it?

[quote=calabari]@LlamaKing: Wooow you compated Dark Impale to Blade Fury? Have you ever used DI? The range is atrocious. It has no vertical range and very short horizontal range. Pots are great and all but as a hero I have to swallow them like crazy, using thousands during a training session and because of this bosses with pot cooldowns (empress) are extremely difficult for classes like heroes to survive. I understand your problem with thieves dealing more damage than DBs, but you have consider potential as well. Both Kaisers and DBs require a large amount of funding but their damage potential is much higher than other classes.
Also I never said DBs were the best mobbing class, of course others (Like Lumi of course >_&gt will outmob them, but you have to consider that mobbing and mobility go hand in hand when training. I can hit 6 mobs with a small range mobbing skill in one direction while you can hit more on both sides of you and slide to another mob, or even jump to a platform above while I climb a ladder. Your mobbing and training potential is quite decent - better than pretty much all older classes, and only falling behind the newer classes.
I think you're failing to see my point. Of course funding matters, but the chart that you have so kindly linked does not take into account hitting high damage, this is for unfunded players. I find that DBs may have a steep climb to hit max, but certainly do not have a steep climb to be decent (hitting 1~2m each hit).

Edit: Not to mention your hyper skill is the most overpowered hyper skill of all time AND it now ignores DR (somewhat). - something I doubt the dpm chart took into account considering they only use main attacking skills.

Edit 2: And on top of that DPM charts don't even mean anything. How the game is structured now it's all about other mechanics that push a character to be better than another (binds, avoid, etc). While you stand there spamming your skills and everything is missing you I have to stop and chug pots or rebuff from something that did not miss me.[/quote]

Edit: Wait, don't Dark Knights have Lord of Darkness? Which is better than DB's drain in every single way?

"Lord of Darkness : At Master Level (10): Crit Rate: +30%, Minimum Critical Damage: +15%, 20% chance to convert 10% of damage to HP."

You have no room to complain about DB's drain.

If we want to talk about the range of mobbing skills, I think Aran, Demon Slayer, Kaiser, and Zero are better than DB. My reasoning for this is because Arans can cover an entire map at KD4 (this was based on my friend Shane leeching me at KD4, so forgive me if this is not entirely true), Demon Slayers have been known to be good mobbers (which explains why a good portion of the level 250s are Demon Slayers), Kaisers I'm not actually too sure about, and I always see Zeros flying all over the map in SH. Blade Fury's vertical range is not exactly helpful at a flat map like SH, and the vertical range is negligible at a vertically large map like KD4. I agree that potion cooldown bosses like Empress are difficult, but even then Drain is very unreliable. However, we're talking about mobbing, not bossing. To solve the annoyance of using potions during training, invest in a pet and use auto-pot. I agree that Kaisers have a high damage potential. However, a max damage Night Walker will outclass a max damage DB. A max damage Night Lord may not have as much damage, but their extra EXP % and drop rate % more than makes up for it. I would argue a max damage Shadower has one of the highest damage potentials of all classes considering how high they can raise their damage cap. Phantoms I believe hit even faster than DBs because they can steal almost any adventurer skill and use their own. The only thief class a max damage DB truly outclasses is Xenon, who's not even 100% a thief class.

I agree with you, however, that DBs have good mobility. What I disagree is this: "Of course funding matters, but the chart that you have so kindly linked does not take into account hitting high damage, this is for unfunded players." Unfunded? Do you realize how much funding it takes to hit max damage on a DB? The amount of DBs who can hit max damage are the 1%. The chart is accounting for the majority of DBs, funded or unfunded. Those with max visual range still do not always hit max damage, and I would argue they're well-funded. "I find that DBs may have a steep climb to hit max, but certainly do not have a steep climb to be decent (hitting 1~2m each hit)." A Night Lord with approximately 600k range can 1-shot SH mobs. As a DB, I can't 1-shot SH mobs with 900k range without Final Cut. Night Lords also have a higher weapon multiplier than DBs as well (1.75x vs 1.3x). Asura is definitely a useful hyper skill, but its cooldown prevents it from being a mobbing skill by any means. I've already said this: "I personally do not [fully believe DPS charts] since they are not 100% accurate." However, I linked it because they display damage trends, like how Zeros, Night Walkers, etc. theoretically deal more damage (which is kind of true, considering how Zeros and Night Walkers are fairly strong compared to DBs). Again, pet auto-pot is a really useful tool, and it can be free (Nexon hands them out for free sometimes during events, and the Maple Rewards shop has free pets and water-of-life).

[quote=Lecarde]BS. Pure BS. Shadowers and NL are capped at 45% avoid, or half of the avoid that a DB has. Xenon is capped at 40% avoid. DB by far have the highest avoid in this game, and none of the other thieves even come close.[/quote]

I said they had comparable avoid because as a Night Lord and Shadower, the amount of LUK you have will easily get you max weapon and magic avoidability. Add Shadow Shifter in, and the amount of times you get hit is pretty small.

As for the usefulness of avoid, many people have pet auto-pot, so whatever you do get hit is healed almost instantaneously. Familiars can also provide 15% HP and MP every 10 seconds, so healing during training becomes less of an issue. If you factor all of this in, HP and MP become a small issue for Night Lords and Shadowers. Also, most bosses ignore avoid anyway like Chaos Vellum and Hard Magnus.

[quote=LlamaKing]I'm assuming the debuff lasts 60 seconds like our old Final Cut. So you'll have to reapply it probably.

Strong? I've only played thieves, but from what I know, it's much easier to fund a Night Walker, a Night Lord, a Shadower, a Phantom, or a Xenon than it is to fund a Dual Blade. Drain? It's not even that useful, I would trade it for an improvement to our terrible mob damage. [B][I]Highest avoid? It got capped at 90%, and most of the other thieves have comparable avoid.[/I][/B] Extremely fast attacks? That's useful when you hit max damage per line, but if you haven't realized, Dual Blades are probably one of the most expensive classes to fund due to the cost of a second weapon and LUK % (the only other class I can think of that's more expensive is Kaiser with their Ryude's Sword). Hit many times each attack? Again, it's only useful when you can hit high damage. We have decent mobility compared to other classes, and I'm pretty sure other classes have a mobbing skill that hits behind them as well. I switched from DB to Shadower to Night Lord to DB again, and of the three, DB has the lowest range (the difference was about 400k). I don't agree that Nexon hates us (this change is actually beneficial in some ways), but DB could certainly use more improvement to their mobbing.[/quote]

BS. Pure BS. Shadowers and NL are capped at 45% avoid, or half of the avoid that a DB has. Xenon is capped at 40% avoid. DB by far have the highest avoid in this game, and none of the other thieves even come close.

lets just hope the debuff applies to all mobs. even though i dont usually use Final Cut unless im recording. Many other DBs would stilll need it since we're such a horrible class. Many people who judge DB as fast strong power class never even experienced the struggle of gearing a DB, playing a thief with limited flash jump and ascension compare to KMS. its kinda nasty how a combo class have such mad delays in combos </3 </3 </3

[quote=Xavierrr]And also one other major thing that would be affected, dojo times. Even though people who can hit cap w/o final cut wont be affected , the rest of us will suffer due to this update[/quote]
Nope. By the time this revamp hits, we'll have the revamped dojo months prior. Basically dojo times are sorted by classes.

My question is that, if they're going to have the debuff activate regardless of charge time... why not simply remove the charge-up entirely? Just have it activate, do damage and activate the debuff?

[quote=LlamaKing]http://www.basilmarket.com/forum/2877264/
[/quote]
Oh, FC's already a separate multiplier? Wonder how I missed that.
In any case, if it's true, then there isn't really a good reason for this change at all.

[quote=Klytta]@calabari Drain really isn't the most useful of skills. Out of every skill DBs have it really does the least. Mainly because when you have a 1vboss battle you have a 10% chance to activate the thing... meaning you have to stab that thing 10 times on average to get it to work. The speed of PB without additional things like Dsi + Green MPE makes drain activation happen very seldomly. Even with the speed buffs it's very not helpful as well. For example gollux. When you can't pot and need HP, you're better off waiting to the side for the pot cd to finish then trying to stab it for hp. However it is indeed useful with mobbing. Because each monster adds to the chances. Long story short as a DB when you boss, you basically should and will completely forget drain exists.[/quote]

That's true, but I was only mentioning it as another perk. It makes training loads easier which IMO adds to how good a class is. But for the sake of dojo and other multi-part bosses, I do hope FC does work out for you guys. After all my closest maplestory buddy and irl friend is a DB and I want him to do well.

@McEgg FC doesn't give total damage. FC gives a true x1.6 to your damage output. (Not +60%TTD in the [(skill damage)x (1+hyper damage boost + %TTD)] < it does NOT get added into this part of the formula. It is added at the very end. 10 mils become 16 mils. If it was total damage you'd be only getting a 60% boss damage boost.

@calabari Drain really isn't the most useful of skills. Out of every skill DBs have it really does the least. Mainly because when you have a 1vboss battle you have a 10% chance to activate the thing... meaning you have to stab that thing 10 times on average to get it to work. The speed of PB without additional things like Dsi + Green MPE makes drain activation happen very seldomly. Even with the speed buffs it's very not helpful as well. For example gollux. When you can't pot and need HP, you're better off waiting to the side for the pot cd to finish then trying to stab it for hp. However it is indeed useful with mobbing. Because each monster adds to the chances. Long story short as a DB when you boss, you basically should and will completely forget drain exists.

[quote=McEgg]If FC doesn't give total damage anymore, then theoretically the damage bonus won't stack with boss damage anymore. That should be a buff in damage on higher end things.
It does massively screw over their Dojo times though, so I don't really see this change making it out of Tespia intact.[/quote]

http://www.basilmarket.com/forum/2877264/

If this thread is correct, it's multiplicative with boss damage and not additive. I'm assuming after this change in Tespia it still acts like before as a multiplier and not an additive. I agree that Mu Lung's Dojo is going to be far tougher (as if it wasn't already tough enough with the recent changes), but someone posted a video earlier of the new Final Cut. I'm hoping Orange Mushroom's translation was partially wrong.

Edit: Never mind, someone posted later in this thread that Dojo times are sorted by class. The change will only affect the top rank 1 spot where it compares all classes.

@LlamaKing: Wooow you compated Dark Impale to Blade Fury? Have you ever used DI? The range is atrocious. It has no vertical range and very short horizontal range. Pots are great and all but as a hero I have to swallow them like crazy, using thousands during a training session and because of this bosses with pot cooldowns (empress) are extremely difficult for classes like heroes to survive. I understand your problem with thieves dealing more damage than DBs, but you have consider potential as well. Both Kaisers and DBs require a large amount of funding but their damage potential is much higher than other classes.
Also I never said DBs were the best mobbing class, of course others (Like Lumi of course >_&gt will outmob them, but you have to consider that mobbing and mobility go hand in hand when training. I can hit 6 mobs with a small range mobbing skill in one direction while you can hit more on both sides of you and slide to another mob, or even jump to a platform above while I climb a ladder. Your mobbing and training potential is quite decent - better than pretty much all older classes, and only falling behind the newer classes.
I think you're failing to see my point. Of course funding matters, but the chart that you have so kindly linked does not take into account hitting high damage, this is for unfunded players. I find that DBs may have a steep climb to hit max, but certainly do not have a steep climb to be decent (hitting 1~2m each hit).

Edit: Not to mention your hyper skill is the most overpowered hyper skill of all time AND it now ignores DR (somewhat). - something I doubt the dpm chart took into account considering they only use main attacking skills.

Edit 2: And on top of that DPM charts don't even mean anything. How the game is structured now it's all about other mechanics that push a character to be better than another (binds, avoid, etc). While you stand there spamming your skills and everything is missing you I have to stop and chug pots or rebuff from something that did not miss me.

If FC doesn't give total damage anymore, then theoretically the damage bonus won't stack with boss damage anymore. That should be a buff in damage on higher end things.
It does massively screw over their Dojo times though, so I don't really see this change making it out of Tespia intact.

[quote=calabari]@LlamaKing: This is like hearing a 15 year old girl complain about her life. My unfunded DB far outshines most of my other characters. Your drain is not useful because your avoid is BS and the amount of funding it takes to hit max shouldn't matter because a DB will outdamage most other capping classes before it even gets there. Not to mention your skills have built in PDR and far outclass most other jobs with their mobbing. If you think DBs need a mobbing buff then play a warrior class and I guarantee you will be whining in no time.[/quote]

That's funny, because my unfunded Cannoneer did better than my unfunded DB (at least in terms of damage, durability, and range). Drain isn't necessary because there are these things called "pots," and they drop from relatively easy bosses known as RA bosses, Hilla, Zakum, etc. I also hope you know drain has a 1 out of 10 chance to activate, and it heals about 10%. Pots would be far more reliable and useful (especially at bosses). The amount of funding DOES matter because before DB hits max damage, most other classes deal more damage than it. All thieves deal more damage than Dual Bladers until max damage is reached, and even then I know for certain Night Walkers/Shadowers still have the advantage. Why do I use thieves for comparison? Because it makes sense to compare a thief class to another thief class. Our skills have built in PDR because they have low % numbers. Also, Blade Fury is used for mobbing, but isn't PDR mostly for bosses? Blade Fury has 200% compared to Showdown's 618% and Boomerang Stab's 742%. Not only that, Night Lord has built in EXP % and drop rate % while Shadower receives high stun chance and 25% more damage to all their skills. If you really want to talk about warrior classes, then Dark Knight's Dark Impale is just like Blade Fury but with an extra 80% damage and 10% instant KO chance. They also have Cross Surge, which is better than Final Cut because it's 80% more damage and not 60% damage while also being a buff without a cooldown (hence why Phantoms steal Cross Surge and not Final Cut). If you believe in DPS charts (which I personally do not since they are not 100% accurate), then take a look at this one: https://itzdarkvoid.wordpress.com/2014/07/26/kms-tespia-1-2-509-dpm-chart/

It's the most recent one I found, and it displays a trend. Dual Blades are consistently at the bottom (in this case, they're rank 31 out of 35 classes). Almost every thief and warrior class ranks higher than Dual Blades. "Far outclass most other jobs with their mobbing" my arse, go play a Luminous. There's a reason the first three level 250s are Luminous. Exactly 9 of the 39 level 250s are warriors, which is about a fourth of all level 250s. Meanwhile, not one Dual Blade has reached level 250. Dual Bladers are a fun class, but to say their mobbing is not below average is not accurate.

@Stimlexa: Db's are such a fun class and extremely gifted with what they have to their disposal. It's just frustrating to see people complain so much about a class that has so much compared to other classes.That being said, I think it's just that people don't realize that most classes don't have what they do and take it for granted - like rage in my case (% ignore).

[quote=calabari]But DBs are strong, have drain, have the highest avoid, attack extremely fast, and hit many times each attack. They also have great mobility and a mobbing skill that hits behind them as well as a reusable "ulti"
And you think Nexon hates you?[/quote]

I see you've already been taken care. Too bad!

[quote=CherryTigers]Video could possibly be a troll? Seems like pre-revamp final cut to me.

"instead of giving a 60% damage boost, this skill now inflicts a debuff on monsters hit which increases your damage on them by 60%, the damage boost no longer depends on your charge time"

This is on Orange Mushroom blog and it says nothing about receiving a buff after use.[/quote]

well , im not sure, in the video we can clearly see he recives the buff even though he didnt hit any monster, it may be a troll. i honestly dont know, however i do want to think that this is the case, because if fc will inflict a debuff only on the monsters you hit, it means that dual blades will lose damage when mobbing.

@LlamaKing: This is like hearing a 15 year old girl complain about her life. My unfunded DB far outshines most of my other characters. Your drain is not useful because your avoid is BS and the amount of funding it takes to hit max shouldn't matter because a DB will outdamage most other capping classes before it even gets there. Not to mention your skills have built in PDR and far outclass most other jobs with their mobbing. If you think DBs need a mobbing buff then play a warrior class and I guarantee you will be whining in no time.

And also one other major thing that would be affected, dojo times. Even though people who can hit cap w/o final cut wont be affected , the rest of us will suffer due to this update

[quote=iStalkPeople]What I dont understand is, how long does the debuff last? There is no mention on ANY site about it. So just casting it once makes it perma stick to the boss until you die or the boss dies.... ooor...?[/quote]

I'm assuming the debuff lasts 60 seconds like our old Final Cut. So you'll have to reapply it probably.

[quote=calabari]But DBs are strong, have drain, have the highest avoid, attack extremely fast, and hit many times each attack. They also have great mobility and a mobbing skill that hits behind them as well as a reusable "ulti"
And you think Nexon hates you?[/quote]

Strong? I've only played thieves, but from what I know, it's much easier to fund a Night Walker, a Night Lord, a Shadower, a Phantom, or a Xenon than it is to fund a Dual Blade. Drain? It's not even that useful, I would trade it for an improvement to our terrible mob damage. Highest avoid? It got capped at 90%, and most of the other thieves have comparable avoid. Extremely fast attacks? That's useful when you hit max damage per line, but if you haven't realized, Dual Blades are probably one of the most expensive classes to fund due to the cost of a second weapon and LUK % (the only other class I can think of that's more expensive is Kaiser with their Ryude's Sword). Hit many times each attack? Again, it's only useful when you can hit high damage. We have decent mobility compared to other classes, and I'm pretty sure other classes have a mobbing skill that hits behind them as well. I switched from DB to Shadower to Night Lord to DB again, and of the three, DB has the lowest range (the difference was about 400k). I don't agree that Nexon hates us (this change is actually beneficial in some ways), but DB could certainly use more improvement to their mobbing.

[quote=Stimlexa]As I had been expecting, this is garbage. And how could they say "Although Bowmaster has many hits per second, their actual damage was very low." when they're already stronger than Dual Blades? Nexon just hates us and won't be satisfied until we're gone.[/quote]

But DBs are strong, have drain, have the highest avoid, attack extremely fast, and hit many times each attack. They also have great mobility and a mobbing skill that hits behind them as well as a reusable "ulti"
And you think Nexon hates you?

Its really not that big of a deal guys; it really only affects the db's that are not funded. For example, applying the debuff to only a part of zakum or horntail is a huge problem for starter db's. They also took a huge hit in the grinding/leveling department.

What I dont understand is, how long does the debuff last? There is no mention on ANY site about it. So just casting it once makes it perma stick to the boss until you die or the boss dies.... ooor...?

As I had been expecting, this is garbage. And how could they say "Although Bowmaster has many hits per second, their actual damage was very low." when they're already stronger than Dual Blades? Nexon just hates us and won't be satisfied until we're gone.

It's a major nerf for mobbing though. We dbs already have a low damage output on our mobbing skills, compared to other classes.

I don't think this final cut change will be welcomed in terms of training and such. Best thing to do would be either buff up our mobbing skills or choose some other alternative to buff final cut.

If my understanding of this change is correct, and if Orange Mushroom's translation is correct, then it's a major buff. During Final Cut's 60 second duration, you can cast Sudden Raid twice. Doing so decreases the cooldown of Final Cut by 20%. The 90 second cooldown of Final Cut becomes 72 seconds after the first casting of Sudden Raid, and then it becomes 57.6 seconds after the second casting of Sudden Raid. Thus, it's possible for all Dual Bladers to have permanent Final Cut. This frees up the inner ability for Dual Bladers instead of having to aim for buff duration.

[quote=CherryTigers]Video could possibly be a troll? Seems like pre-revamp final cut to me.

"instead of giving a 60% damage boost, this skill now inflicts a debuff on monsters hit which increases your damage on them by 60%, the damage boost no longer depends on your charge time"

This is on Orange Mushroom blog and it says nothing about receiving a buff after use.[/quote]
True, but he used sudden raid twice, which after each use lowers the c/d by 20% and you can see that in the description of sudden raid at 0:17 it says something about 20% :o and he was able to cast FC as soon as the buff went away. It doesnt seem like he has buff duration either because the 1 went to a 0 on the buff counter almost instantly.

In my opinion it sounds like a pretty big nerf. Instead of getting 60% extra damage on all monsters, it's only the monsters you hit with the skill... atleast that's how i see it

[quote=phantomsl2]i have a theory here, im not sure its true. in orange mushroom it says final cut put a mark on the monsters you hit right? and if you attack those monsters you deal 60% more damage on them.
however, the guy in the video did not hit any monster, therefore, maybe, if you dont hit any specific monster, the buff will just give us 60% damage just like it is right now.[/quote]

Video could possibly be a troll? Seems like pre-revamp final cut to me.

"instead of giving a 60% damage boost, this skill now inflicts a debuff on monsters hit which increases your damage on them by 60%, the damage boost no longer depends on your charge time"

This is on Orange Mushroom blog and it says nothing about receiving a buff after use.

IMO a pretty big nerf because buff duration no longer works on it.

Well aside from the whole 60% dmg/buff aspect at least it will be easier to maintain perm FC with the sudden raid effect

[quote=phantomsl2]i have a theory here, im not sure its true. in orange mushroom it says final cut put a mark on the monsters you hit right? and if you attack those monsters you deal 60% more damage on them.
however, the guy in the video did not hit any monster, therefore, maybe, if you dont hit any specific monster, the buff will just give us 60% damage just like it is right now.[/quote]
Hmm, that'd be pretty crazy haha, but idk, it's still unclear to me.

[quote=XxTRiiKzZ]See, I'm confused by the description I just watched this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY1BLdBSsJ8 but he still gets the buff. So does that mean the buff doesn't mean anything unless you hit a mob with it?[/quote]

i have a theory here, im not sure its true. in orange mushroom it says final cut put a mark on the monsters you hit right? and if you attack those monsters you deal 60% more damage on them.
however, the guy in the video did not hit any monster, therefore, maybe, if you dont hit any specific monster, the buff will just give us 60% damage just like it is right now.

My guess is that orange mushroom misread the skill description and its actual effect is FC will take into effect regardless of there is a monster in front of you or not(The part where it talks about death is when you are charging FC and the mob in front of you dies there wasting the time you spent charging FC). Or this might just be a bug

See, I'm confused by the description I just watched this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY1BLdBSsJ8 but he still gets the buff. So does that mean the buff doesn't mean anything unless you hit a mob with it?