General

@pikalachu: yeah I've heard and seen good things about BKB, the only problem for me is that they train a bit slow since attack range is pretty short on blow moves, but with the recent 2x events it's not too bad.

I/L got pretty fun in the 2nd advancement, the lightning attack is pretty satisfying, but I'm probably gonna put it on hold for now since I'm enjoying BaM more atm

[quote=Lmaonade200]thanks guys currently trying out both I/L and BaM, I like BaM more so far but can't judge a character by it's first 3 advances so I might even get both to 100[/quote]

for a BaM, it starts kicking in at lvl 170 with BKB.
i was already having lots of fun even before hypers came out, now its even more fun.
BKB can change a person`s life.

thanks guys currently trying out both I/L and BaM, I like BaM more so far but can't judge a character by it's first 3 advances so I might even get both to 100

@AznFlip: i can assure you that AYA is not gltiched, its been fixed a while a go.
AYA got 2 type of dodge rate.
1 active dodge that is a fixed rate; 20% normal, 40% with body boost and 60% with grand aura. it is shown that it works when your character does the f2 animation
and the Passive dodge that is not at a fixed rate but based on avoidability rate + 20%. this passive one is merely shown as "GUARD" and it does work.
i can sit at HoH and the mobs pretty much never hit me, i can see all the guards showing up and myself f2ing for days.

To keep it short,

I/L and BaM = around equal strength in mobbing, BaM is superior at bossing, but not by a huge margin.

Kanna = weak, but good support skills for training and bossing.

@Mystelteinn: pretty sure pap, manon, grifey does.
if not, well dosent change much since i never got hit anyway

@king2123: I was wrong with the range. It's only half as yours at that time. I don't think range is really the problem here (for adventurer mages at least). As long as you can OHKO the monsters (not the shield or the horse) then you should be able to do fine for the most part. It's not like CL is significantly faster than Para either. CL has a delay of 780ms while Para is 800ms and neither class has any skills that can outspeed either class. Para still hits more monsters even with the CL hyper. Idk why they can't finish near your time.

Even comparing classes like my DB and Pally who hit more monsters than my I/L but still have lower ranges than it, I can still finish before the 55 min mark (with no lag) and around the 54:30 mark with my Pally or DB. It's all about who's able to kill more monsters at once and I/L is lacking in that department (for most people at least).

@AznFlip: Im so confused here o.o o.o I got a few f/p friends, that have nearly the same range but can't finish near my time o.o...?

@pikalachu: I'm pretty sure the 80% dodge is glitched. I remember that it's been well known that the passive effects from AYA has been glitched for like ever. Even testing it on weak monsters like Rashes in Leafre, I am still getting hit much more than the theoretical probability. Unless my luck is absolutely horrible, I doubt that even testing it multiple times since the patch came, that I get hit at a rate at much more than 1/5. You may also have a high avoidability rate and not dodge rate which is why you don't get hit as often.

@SorLilly: each weapon has a multiplier. See this [url=http://www.basilmarket.com/forum/2785091/1/Post_Red_Weapon_Multipliers.html]thread[/url]. Shining Rods, Fans, and Scepters all have a multiplier greater than 1. Only wands and staves have a multiplier of 1. Adventurer mages have a class multiplier of 1.2 so that's basically a weapon multiplier of 1.2. Basically the mages left are BaMs and Evans. Unlike other classes where %damage skills appear in the range, it doesn't seem like Nexon changed this for Evans. This also contributes to the lower ranges. All though ranges are low, that doesn't mean damage output is low but people love to see high ranges.

[quote=pikalachu]if your talking about avoidability, BaM got more than that.
with grand aura, we got 80% dodge and it goes up to 92% dodge with decent combat orders.
ive went trought ranked dojo without even being damaged ONCE and that includes the bosses that cast 1/1 attack like pap and manon/griffey.
and 3 minute cooldown on party shield isnt that long compared to the old 7 min colldown.
its also very usefull at magnus and CRA.[/quote]

Do mobs in dojo still cast 1/1? :O

[quote=AznFlip]
@xhyun: technically, every class has 1/1 protection. Example, DB can avoid 1/1 attacks easily (I'm not talking about %HP attacks) What I mean is that if a boss casts 1/1 a BaM will get 1/1. party shield doesn't last very long and has a long cd, even longer thanks to lag.[/quote]

if your talking about avoidability, BaM got more than that.
with grand aura, we got 80% dodge and it goes up to 92% dodge with decent combat orders.
ive went trought ranked dojo without even being damaged ONCE and that includes the bosses that cast 1/1 attack like pap and manon/griffey.
and 3 minute cooldown on party shield isnt that long compared to the old 7 min colldown.
its also very usefull at magnus and CRA.

I'm not too sure how to explain but I'll try, weapon multiplier is basically something part of the damage calculation formula, for this particular weapon, Staff (I believe), the multiplier is 1, so whatever damage/attack/calculation number that gets pushed through the formula is multiplied by whatever the multiplier is.

For example, the multiplier for knuckles is 1.7, so essentially every 1 attack you raise on that knuckle is counted as 1.7 in damage calculation

don't know exactly what it does though, since I haven't taken a look at the formula itself.

I don't understand about the weapon multiplier can you explain please ? Like how is it different for mages ?

BaMs get higher range and easy to fund than Evans ? I never knew that, but Evans are easy to hit high dmg with low dmg so that's kinda equal ?

@AznFlip

@Lmaonade200: BaMs have a lot buffs with the Auras taking a little longer to cast. It's also annoying that Grand Light Aura/Big Crunch Aura is a separate buff that can only be used when Body Boost is up. It's also a little slow for my taste, but not as slow as Void Elemental though. IMO, casting Battle Rage is also slow but still not as bad as Void Elemental.

@xhyun: technically, every class has 1/1 protection. Example, DB can avoid 1/1 attacks easily (I'm not talking about %HP attacks) What I mean is that if a boss casts 1/1 a BaM will get 1/1. party shield doesn't last very long and has a long cd, even longer thanks to lag.

[quote=AznFlip][b]I/L[/b]
Pros
-Unlike most other classes, I/Ls damage is not halved against endgame bosses
-Good mobbing skills
-1/1 protection
-Fairly high status resist compared to other classes
-Good support skills like Ice Aura and Bind
-Tied with BaM with 3rd best Tele (adventurer mages will have an advantage in You and I since they can be used in the air)

Cons
-No %HP protection
-Not really particularly excellent at anything. They're still a good class but some other classes do attacking (such as F/P) or supporting (such as Bishop) a lot better.

[b]BaM[/b]
Pros
-Excellent support skills
-Good mobbing skills.
-Has %HP protection
-Excellent survivability
-Drain
-100% stance
-Tied with I/L with 3rd best Tele

Cons
-Damage is halved at endgame bosses
-No 1/1 protection (not sure if Nexon fixed this issue or if it's intended but as of RED, there is none)
-People find playstyle to be repetitive/boring
-People find them weak until they reach 170
-BaMs along with Evans are the only mages with a weapon multiplier of 1

[b]Kanna[/b]
Pros
-Excellent support skills with Kishin being a unique skill
-Easy to get into parties. I see a lot of people offering free leeches to Kannas
-Easy to get high ranges
-Highest range tele out of all the mages

Cons
-You already know how annoying the Red orbs everywhere are
-Damage is so-so
-IMO, mobbing is a lot to be desired (the main mobbing moves only hit 3 monsters?)
-People find Mana Regeneration to be a problem
-Some people find Tele to be slow

Nexon seems to have fixed the worst of the Kanna glitches. Not sure if they fixed the glitch the cancels Vanquisher's Charm Shikigami Haunting though.[/quote]

Actually BaMs do have 1/1 protection which applies for all party members if they are all inside party shield. party shield will reduce 10% dmg so basically a 1/1 attack will take 90% of your hp haha

@jlt2624
that doesn't sound too bad, I'll have to play one to compare it to pally I suppose though. I think animations may play a big part in what class I choose, Kanna skills are absolutely beautiful (except orbs) and I've heard that I/L skills are really nice looking after the RED update.

the bind isn't a problem for me, I'm big on parties and support, that's why I'm considering BaM and Kanna, my guild master has talked about the I/L bind and ice stacking being extremely useful for him so I'm also considering this class.

@king2123
will do for sure especially bossing, choosing a class has been the toughest thing for me in this game -_- before I mained my Paladin I actually leveled a Kaiser up to 170 and geared it up pretty well before switching, don't want to make the same mistake here and waste time/meso.

@AznFlip
I see, thanks, Paladin is not too bad in terms of quickness, just barely within my comfort zone but some of the after cast delays are just terrible, it is very difficult to not waste lives in Magnus when rebuffing takes a century because Void Elemental takes forever to finish casting -_- and though the rush skill is nice for quick dodges the delay is once again too long for my tastes.
Was hoping I/L would be a bit quicker on it's feet but I can manage, would BaM be about the same?

@king2123: the only problems I have with range are in HoH or in any other normal training maps. Otherwise, like I said previously, I can finish DiPQ faster on my F/P than my I/L. It looks like my F/P has a third of range (it's lvl 180) of your I/L and I can still finish it at around the same time if not quicker.

@Lmaonade200: playstyle is pretty simple. It's mostly cast Frozen Orb then spam CL until the counters run out. Then repeat. Blizzard looks like it's working now so I cast it every 40 secs for maximum DPS. Personally, I find them about as quick as Paladin.

[quote=AznFlip]@Refrigeratee: Most people will be in the CL only hits 5 monsters which is below average for a 4th job mobbing skill and [b]STILL[/b] below the amount of monsters that CL had pre-BB. The main training spots from 100-165 are Evo world, MPE, and DiPQ. I/Ls are at a disadvantage to even F/Ps who are known to be not as good mobbers as I/Ls. In Evo and DiPQ, F/Ps are better mobbers due to the fact that F/Ps hit more monsters and range is not really an issue.[/quote]

The problem with CL mobbing is its range (as in how far its distance can go) is not that far... But there is no arguing that it is completely superior to paralyze with f/p in dimension invade or HOH. Paralyze, attacks are a bit slow, but are beautifully high on damage, but see one in action i comparison to chain lightning, in dimension invade or any high mobs areas. I/L is easily superior in terms of how much monsters to clear. And as an I/L, I can assure you in dimension invade i hit more than 5 monsters at once. o.o. And, along with our hyper skill, we can hit 8 monsters, because it adds an additional 2 extra monsters. Check out my videos to see it. But then along come lumis with their crazy reflection range >.< >.< Atleast our dos is higher, but still! </3

OT- You get what I mean.. You can check out a few of my videos, if you want to see me bossing and in dimension invade if you are interested

I find that I tend to teleport back and forth when I attack but then that's probably just me LOL
It's mostly frozen orb and then chain lightning over and over, with an occasional blizzard, resummoning of Thunderstorm and Elquines and lightning orb if I can.
They're quite responsive and fast to me. Teleport is amazing

Edit: Freezing breath (the bind) doesn't allow you to attack because it's keydown, but it gives you invincibility so that's nice. Great for parties, not for soloing (unless you need to save yourself)

@AznFlip: hmm alright, thank you for the info

another question though
how is the playstyle of I/L when bossing? Do they do many varied things? Or is it a spam fest, I know that they can bind so that's useful and interesting, but what about regular attacking? Also, are they responsive and quick? Because my Kanna feels like my Paladin, after/during-cast delays make it difficult to maneuver well in bosses like CRA or Magnus, so while my Paladin pretty much face tanks through many things, I think I'll need a mage that's quick on its feet, especially considering I have the reflexes of a dead cat.

[quote=Lmaonade200]thank you for the comprehensive pros and cons list

hmm, I totally forgot about the damage halving aspect, since Paladins ignore that too.

I didn't know that BaMs had only a 1 weapon multiplier though, that somewhat dampens my enthusiasm for them, but hey drain, 100% stance, and easy capped attack speed.
Is training a problem for I/L? For Kanna it was mixed, on one hand the auto attack hits THREE mobs, which was irritating since I couldn't keep up with my own kishin, but kishin itself and red orb explosion and the other occasional map attacks made it a bit easier. I imagine this is really no problem for BaM especially in Evo.[/quote]

Even though the multiplier is at 1, compared to Evan at least, BaMs have a much easier time of getting higher ranges. The buffs that they have also make it easier than some classes like adventurer archers to have higher ranges. I've never had a problem with my I/L for the most part, but I trained it by mostly spamming Blizz. At least in DiPQ, comparing I/Ls, BaMs, F/Ps, and Bishops, my I/L usually took the longest and it's even the highest level of the group.

thank you for the comprehensive pros and cons list

hmm, I totally forgot about the damage halving aspect, since Paladins ignore that too.

I didn't know that BaMs had only a 1 weapon multiplier though, that somewhat dampens my enthusiasm for them, but hey drain, 100% stance, and easy capped attack speed.
Is training a problem for I/L? For Kanna it was mixed, on one hand the auto attack hits THREE mobs, which was irritating since I couldn't keep up with my own kishin, but kishin itself and red orb explosion and the other occasional map attacks made it a bit easier. I imagine this is really no problem for BaM especially in Evo.

@Refrigeratee: Most people will be in the CL only hits 5 monsters which is below average for a 4th job mobbing skill and [b]STILL[/b] below the amount of monsters that CL had pre-BB. The main training spots from 100-165 are Evo world, MPE, and DiPQ. I/Ls are at a disadvantage to even F/Ps who are known to be not as good mobbers as I/Ls. In Evo and DiPQ, F/Ps are better mobbers due to the fact that F/Ps hit more monsters and range is not really an issue.

[b]I/L[/b]
Pros
-Unlike most other classes, I/Ls damage is not halved against endgame bosses
-Good mobbing skills
-1/1 protection
-Fairly high status resist compared to other classes
-Good support skills like Ice Aura and Bind
-Tied with BaM with 3rd best Tele (adventurer mages will have an advantage in You and I since they can be used in the air)

Cons
-No %HP protection
-Not really particularly excellent at anything. They're still a good class but some other classes do attacking (such as F/P) or supporting (such as Bishop) a lot better.

[b]BaM[/b]
Pros
-Excellent support skills
-Good mobbing skills.
-Has %HP protection
-Excellent survivability
-Drain
-100% stance
-Tied with I/L with 3rd best Tele

Cons
-Damage is halved at endgame bosses
-No 1/1 protection (not sure if Nexon fixed this issue or if it's intended but as of RED, there is none)
-People find playstyle to be repetitive/boring
-People find them weak until they reach 170
-BaMs along with Evans are the only mages with a weapon multiplier of 1

[b]Kanna[/b]
Pros
-Excellent support skills with Kishin being a unique skill
-Easy to get into parties. I see a lot of people offering free leeches to Kannas
-Easy to get high ranges
-Highest range tele out of all the mages

Cons
-You already know how annoying the Red orbs everywhere are
-Damage is so-so
-IMO, mobbing is a lot to be desired (the main mobbing moves only hit 3 monsters?)
-People find Mana Regeneration to be a problem
-Some people find Tele to be slow

Nexon seems to have fixed the worst of the Kanna glitches. Not sure if they fixed the glitch the cancels Vanquisher's Charm Shikigami Haunting though.