General

Too bad that body pressure kills you if the boss cast reflector

[quote=OnyxApple]I would assume that body pressure isn't super useful until higher levels anyways. When you are a higher level, not only do monsters do more damage, but you also have a higher range, meaning you'll deal more damage with body pressure.[/quote]

Indeed.

As I have said before, Body Pressure serves two purposes: extra DPS against enemies you don't 1-shot (i.e. Bosses), and extra survivability when tanking the body of something dangerous (i.e. Bosses).

[quote=Koolrip]ok, this is a little strange, I don't actually have FB in my skill list o_O
it was there before the tempest patch, but it's now nowhere to be seen? any help?[/quote]

that drops from zak. there are some aran skills that drop from zak. high defence , final blow, combo barrier and i think one more drops from zak.

bump.

I have a question, would it be a great option to max bp and fenrir and leave fc to 4?

And also what is OSFBB, what does the last B means o.o Overswing Final Blow B?

Edit: Nvm I found out it means Beyonder

@phoenix23
1. You only need about 1 Sp into RS to get your combo up to 15 as long as you can hit 4 mobs. I don't remember the minimum targets hit at 1 SP but it should suffice to get a full combo for smash in one one or two RS.
2. Of course you don't say its 100% useless to max. You let them know it's great only IF they have the large amount of funds to hit that.
3. Yes I believe just doing OSFB is better at racking up a combo on high hp mobs than just using RS. But this may just be a matter of preferability. Ask yourself, would you rather spend 5 seconds spamming RS to get a 100 count combo with low % Damage done in that time, or would you spend the 8-10 seconds getting a 100 count combo with a higher %Damage done with OSFB? I think they may just both be equal a ratio in time spent and damage dealt within the time. Too lazy to do the math but I [i]think[/i] OSFB is a better idea in most cases.
4. Sorry, the "Similar" part only referred to the map defense bit you mentioned, which is similar to my case in the first point of Smash/Fenrir being better to use in 3rd job than any other skill. While I do in fact use RS to reposition mobs from behind, it still isn't too big of a deal when you can just dash and rush them instead and it may be faster to just rush them than using RS. And you don't need it maxed to do that. Judgement isn't all that useful in 3rd Job unless you Azwan to train or R&J Pq since it's a quick and easy 1HKO.
5. For an Aran one second isn't hardly anything. A full OSFB takes like two seconds to finish and a full OSFBB takes four seconds. In comparison to their main skills, one second is pretty fast. Plus Judgement has an extra 200% DoT every second which benefits your DPM even more which outdamages RS. I'm not a FT expert nor do I enjoy spamming it so I'm not gonna go into that.
6-7. Of course, you mention it has hindrance by the damage cap but that doesn't mean you shouldn't max it over RS. Another thing to mention to them is that the 200% DoT can go over the cap. Sure it isn't exactly a massive boost but for the godly funded, that has potential. That isn't just an increase on one skills DPM, but it also drags out into more time and works over other combos. So you aren't doing just 3m damage per Judgement, you also do another 1200% damage in DoT which goes over the damage cap. You can do a lot more than 3m damage in one Judgement. And I know 30k isn't anything incredible but it is definitely above average. An average Aran, in my book, is about a 20k range fully buffed w/o combos. 30k is definitely considered above average, but not anything special since Arans naturally have high ranges.
8. It's not like I wrote it out on paper. But when I grind in Hell Mode, just spamming FS/OS wasn't enough to hold off the mobs. When I had maxed Judgement, I held them off very well using it. Tempest is not good unless the monsters are scattered around the map on different platforms. Tempest is weak compared to Judgement, even with 15 mobs. The math comparing the two with spam: (EDIT: forgot tempest gets +1 hit so I just changed the %)

-Tempest hist 15 targets, five times at 720% per hit, and does NOT freeze Azwan/Lhc/Boss type. Per single target with a critical rate of 55% (19% total damage increase), Tempest will hit 4284% average. But since Tempest takes about two seconds to cast, cut that in half(2142%) to compare it with Judgement's one second cast. Hitting all 15 Targets means you multiply the single target % by 15 making the total damage to be 32,130% per second.
-Judgement hits 10 targets, three times at 550% per hit, does 200% DoT every second, and has a 90% total damage increase from Tempest. Per single target with a critical rate of 55% (19% total damage increase), Judgement will hit 3930% average. There is no cut in damage because it is faster than Tempest. Hitting all 10 targets means you multiply the single target % by 10 making the total damage to be 39,300% per second.

Judgement beats out Tempest, even in maximum mob count for each skill and while hitting damage cap if that even matters. And also, Judgement will get you a 30 combo count against max mobs, not 10.

9. I'm confident that I am correct that Judgement-Unlimited spam is the best choice in terms of % per second for the average-above average funded even against OSFBB. But OSFBB by beats it out if you have the funding to hit close or over the damage cap. I look forward to seeing your math on all of these skills. Of course Hypers are not here yet, but the only real buffs hypers have towards Judgement and Tempest is +30% damage Judgement, and some lame Tempest changes. So even now, Tempest is kinda garbage since it takes a while to combo-up and the %per second is so low.

10. Azwan is very good exp since Arans are all about mobbing and surviving, which is what azwan is about (grinding wise). Stronghold beats it out by far, and Lhc can beat it out depending on the party. If you're very well funded then Azwan is better exp then Lhc I think. I'd throw you some numbers but the lag that came with Tempest has destroyed my ability to train in anywhere other than Lhc. Try it out, Azwan is great exp for Arans if you can do Hell Mode which isn't that hard for us(until 160+).

My counterarguments are not in favor of RS. You get just fine use out of it at 1 SP in 3rd job since it already hits 4 mobs 4 times each at 1 stat. That enough should be just fine for all of 3rd job. 4th job it isn't all that necessary either as I pointed out earlier.

And I only brought up hyper skills because YOU brought them up. I compared them to the Hyper skills and not how it is now because that's what you brought to the table here. Points 1-8 you compared Judgement to now and were comparisons with Hyper skills 9 & 10. My very first comment on this thread talked about both pre and post hypers. Yea I threw it out there, am I not allowed to speak the word Hypers now?

Anyways I'll check out your OSFBB thread when its ready.

[quote=rustysilva]Thanks man! Helped a lot.
One question though... Freeze Standing's max level is 30 but in your guide it says that the max is 20.
Should I finish maxing freeze standing or continue following your guide and max it out later after level 156?

Thanks in advance.[/quote]
No. It maxes at 20. Your sources are outdated.
If you happen to see a FS30 book, it is only a useless relic now.

I thought Freeze Standing was changed to 20 some time ago.

[quote=Kazzooey]@pheonix23 I did not ignore those points. Many of those points were just repeats of themselves. Here, I'll show you point by point why I advise against RS.

1. Sure its not bad in 3rd job but I recommend just using Combo Breaker. Its long ranged, it hits hard, easy 1HKO, and only requires 15 combo count. I found it MUCH better than RS. Using Breaker I can very quickly kill off the entire Aliens map much faster than RS.
2. This is a funded point. I know VERY few arans who can hit 528k per line on RS. For an average person (like 90% of the population) this means nothing.
3. Yes it does but how often are you dealing with large mob counts? It would typically be better to just spend the extra second, because that's all you need, and get the larger damage on the monsters using OSFB. Kind of iffy between the two in this point but I'd still rather use OSFB.
4. This is similar to your first point. It generally is better to use Combo Breaker or Fenrir to kill in 3rd job because its stronger and longer ranged. Those skills outdo RS in terms of killing rate. I've had people try to ks me in Aliens but failed because of Breaker/Fenrir.
5. Judgement doesn't take long at all to cast. Its actually pretty fast. It only takes a second while a full OSFBB takes 4 seconds so I don't know what you're talking about. Tempest on the other hand takes forever and half. Judgement doesn't.
6. Again, you're talking about damage cap. That only applies to the very few of the people who can hit it. Pointless to the vast majority.
7. Same thing as 6. My aran with a 30k range can only hit about 300k per line with it. I have an above average amount of %Str and a good bonus of +ATT from my equips off my Paladin/DS. I'm not close to hitting cap just yet. This only really applies to the well funded.
8. On low target counts, Judgement isn't good. That's just common sense. But when you're against 8-15 monsters it does great because you can rack up your combo in one maybe two OSFB. I tested this out in Azwan Hell Mode and I kill a lot faster using Judgement than just OSFB.
9. Wrong. Judgement spam is 40% stronger than OSFBB spam. Judgement can dish out 3930% per second while OSFBB can do about 2405% per second + defense ignore. I accounted for 55% critical, the 100% critical rates on FB and Beyonder, the DoT on Judgement, the hyper buffs to FB, skill cast times, and the 90% increase on Judgement from Tempest. Judgement easily won that. Only way OSFBB wins is if you can hit over the damage cap, which like I said earlier, the vast majority of people cannot do.
10. Once again I state this. Judgement is only good in large target counts such as Azwan, Stronghold, or glitched Lhc. RS isn't exactly the premier bossing skill either and if you just want a quick combo count, you'll just use Combo Recharge. Of course you're not always in a glitched Lhc map, and you don't Stronghold until 165 so I can understand the lack of use for Judgement then. But for Arans, Azwan is still a great source of solo exp since we do so well grinding there and you can Azwan any time you want. I personally did azwan ever since I maxed my main damage skills in 2nd job and would find that it's actually just as good if not better exp than the main training locations but then again, I'm a little bit funded.

Happy now?[/quote]

Yes that's much better. You misspelled my username again though >.<

1. If by Combo Breaker you mean Combo Smash, then sure. Yes. I agree. That's a viable training method. Let me ask you this: How do you obtain the 15 combo count required? If you use smash once on 4-6 monsters (say aliens or mp3), that nets you say about 5 combo count right off the bat after using Smash. You need to recover 10 combos before your next smash. The quickest way to do this? Rolling Spin.
If you're using Combo Smash, the best training method is [Spin-Spin-Spin-Smash]
Also, if you're using combo smash, as you recommend, and depleting your combo at 15... then how the hell is Judgment ever an option?

2. While I've already clarified that this is a point only for the superfunded arans, ask yourself this: As for the top 10% superfunded high-level Arans, how many of them knew for sure at level 90ish they would be hitting this hard a hundred levels later? Many superfunded players don't pour in the funds until 140+, when they know whether or not the class fun for them, or worth funding.
It would be a crime to tell someone RS is not viable even if there's the slightest (10% as you say) chance they might be using it as a main attack skill later.

3. You argue OSFB over RS for building combos?
And what if you're level 100-150 and you DON'T HAVE OSFB?
What if you're at a glitched LHC map or a monster park map? What if you're using Tempest to leech low-levels at glitched HoH? What if you're at CZak and you need combos ASAP to rebuff CB or Drain?
If you're the type of player who uses RS as their main combo building tool, [as you yet again suggested!], why not improve the tool's efficiency?

4. It's not at all similar to my 1st point! How the hell did you understand that mob control and positioning at LHC equates to DPS at Jesters/Aliens/MP3?
And again, how is "I use Fenrir and Smash a lot" an argument in favour of Judgment?

5. ? Again, I have no idea what you think you're talking about. Yes Judgment takes one second to cast. Yes, one second is a LONG time. It doesn't matter if you think one second is a short amount of time, the fact is that using ANY of our 4 other attacking skills (FT, OS, OSFB, or RS) in the same amount of time is better DPS. PLUS Judgment can't activate AFA.

6-7. Whether or not it applies to all players, it still applies to some, and therefore it is a weakness inherent to the skill well worth mentioning. And it's not a 'vast' majority that can't hit cap with Judgment (LOL). It's not like RS hitting cap. Hitting cap with Judgment is pretty easy, especially after you have maxed Tempest for the bonus damage.
And if you think your 30k buffed range is above average, I'm sorry to tell you that you're mistaken.

8. I'd love to hear the details of your rigorous test, like comparison times. Anecdotal evidence is poor evidence. Also, if you're in such a densely populated map that there are 8-15 mobs running around at all times, you should also be considering using Tempest (Judgment only hits 10 Monsters, remember), ESPECIALLY at Aswan where the mobs will receive the freeze debuff and can then be 1-shot, if I'm remembering correctly, and don't forget that if you can hit Tempest on 15 monsters you instantly recover 60 combos, unlike Judgment which can only recover 10 combos upon use, at best.

9. I have only just received the numbers and delays for OSFBBB (BB standing for Beyond Blade). I will tabulate the effective DPS for FT vs. RS vs. OSFB vs. OSFBB vs. Judgment Spam vs. Tempest Spam and will share with you the most important results. I will be sure to tag you in the topic (I think this discussion warrants a new topic, I'll have it ready for tomorrow). I believe there are some problems with your math, and I would like to discuss more details about it with you in a more appropriate topic.
As of now, hyper skills are not in the game, and while it's important to keep them in mind for current skill builds, as was said, Judgment will be maxed eventually anyway, and keep in mind we don't actually get OSFBBB or Combo Unlimited or buffs to Tempest/Judgment [level 177!] until MUCH later, when we will have had lots of chances to max Judgment if its warranted.

10. I have no answer to your argument here. [b]I have never had the chance to use Azwan as a solo training map.[/b] I wish to know more.
Please provide more information, here or by PM. If this is indeed as good exp as you say it is, then there are possibly other skill build changes we should be making as well as making extra considerations for Judgment. For example, is FT good for use at Azwan? The monsters bounce, don't they?

For a while, I'm wasn't sure if you're really trying to argue in favour of judgment, or if you're just trying to argue for the sake of arguing.
A number of your "counterarguments" actually support Spin over Judgment.

Also, you keep drawing comparisons AFTER hyper skills when (you think) it favours judgment, and comparisons BEFORE hyper skills when hyper skills disfavour Judgment. I wonder if you originally avoided writing a long answer to my long post because you have problems with cohesion. Strive for better consistency in your argumentation!

I look forward to any further discussion we might have regarding the skill build and especially any discussion we might have regarding DPS options.

I do thank you for your feedback, and I thank you for allowing me to think extra hard about this part of my suggested build order. As of now, I still believe the suggested build order is the best one for training, and while you have a lot of work to do, I can be convinced if you can prove to me that Judgment is a good training skill in 3rd job and why it should be prioritized over another one (not necessarily RS).

If I do not hear back from you, I will forward you the results of a more detailed examination of OSFBBB and Combo Unlimited Judgment Spam (CUJS?) as DPS skills in comparison with other DPS skills.

Thanks.

[quote=Kazzooey]@pheonix23 I did not ignore those points. Many of those points were just repeats of themselves. Here, I'll show you point by point why I advise against RS.

1. Sure its not bad in 3rd job but I recommend just using Combo Breaker. Its long ranged, it hits hard, easy 1HKO, and only requires 15 combo count. I found it MUCH better than RS. Using Breaker I can very quickly kill off the entire Aliens map much faster than RS.
2. This is a funded point. I know VERY few arans who can hit 528k per line on RS. For an average person (like 90% of the population) this means nothing.
3. Yes it does but how often are you dealing with large mob counts? It would typically be better to just spend the extra second, because that's all you need, and get the larger damage on the monsters using OSFB. Kind of iffy between the two in this point but I'd still rather use OSFB.
4. This is similar to your first point. It generally is better to use Combo Breaker or Fenrir to kill in 3rd job because its stronger and longer ranged. Those skills outdo RS in terms of killing rate. I've had people try to ks me in Aliens but failed because of Breaker/Fenrir.
5. Judgement doesn't take long at all to cast. Its actually pretty fast. It only takes a second while a full OSFBB takes 4 seconds so I don't know what you're talking about. Tempest on the other hand takes forever and half. Judgement doesn't.
6. Again, you're talking about damage cap. That only applies to the very few of the people who can hit it. Pointless to the vast majority.
7. Same thing as 6. My aran with a 30k range can only hit about 300k per line with it. I have an above average amount of %Str and a good bonus of +ATT from my equips off my Paladin/DS. I'm not close to hitting cap just yet. This only really applies to the well funded.
8. On low target counts, Judgement isn't good. That's just common sense. But when you're against 8-15 monsters it does great because you can rack up your combo in one maybe two OSFB. I tested this out in Azwan Hell Mode and I kill a lot faster using Judgement than just OSFB.
9. Wrong. Judgement spam is 40% stronger than OSFBB spam. Judgement can dish out 3930% per second while OSFBB can do about 2405% per second + defense ignore. I accounted for 55% critical, the 100% critical rates on FB and Beyonder, the DoT on Judgement, the hyper buffs to FB, skill cast times, and the 90% increase on Judgement from Tempest. Judgement easily won that. Only way OSFBB wins is if you can hit over the damage cap, which like I said earlier, the vast majority of people cannot do.
10. Once again I state this. Judgement is only good in large target counts such as Azwan, Stronghold, or glitched Lhc. RS isn't exactly the premier bossing skill either and if you just want a quick combo count, you'll just use Combo Recharge. Of course you're not always in a glitched Lhc map, and you don't Stronghold until 165 so I can understand the lack of use for Judgement then. But for Arans, Azwan is still a great source of solo exp since we do so well grinding there and you can Azwan any time you want. I personally did azwan ever since I maxed my main damage skills in 2nd job and would find that it's actually just as good if not better exp than the main training locations but then again, I'm a little bit funded.

Happy now?[/quote]

"Many of those points were just repeats of themselves."

-Reads all the times you repeated yourself-

1. That isn't important in the scenario. DPS wise, RS is better. What you're talking about is just killing a big map.
2. It means a lot. Majority of the time, calculations are based on maximum damage output, on Basil. You cannot call this nothing ESPECIALLY when the argument is about what does the best damage.
3. There's your opinion, it can't be used in an argument like this. You'd rather use OSFB. Okay. But everyone else with the proper funding will use RS.
4. Again, you repeat yourself. Fenrir, if you can get the combo is good, I can agree. But again, we are talking DPS, not how fast you can kill an entire map. Training wise, there are better options then RS especially at a low level or in far to reach areas. If a monster is right next to you and can take at least 4 hits(I.E. LHC/HoH) RS wins by far.
5. Judgement was changed to hit right on the second you cast it, even so it is still slow compared to ALL attacks you use. I don't know where your Tempest argument came from, but if you didn't know. It is useful on something like Zakum's arms AND it is capable of hitting over the cap.
6. It isn't pointless, it is very important if you want [i]some[/i] knowledge on the class.
7. It's hard to believe that even an Aran can hit 300k with a 30k range.
8. Can you even hit 15 monsters with Judgement? Idk, it's been a while since I've played. Anyway, no, RS, FT, and OSFB outdo Judgement.
9. Idk where that lies. I have in sufficient data on Hyper Skills.
10. "Once again." We are assuming max. If you don't like that take it somewhere else. You're going to say "Not everyone hits cap so everything is wrong," but that isn't viable and even sensible here.

Your build seems very good , you did it well!. I hope you can make a guide with recomended hyper skill build.

@pheonix23 I did not ignore those points. Many of those points were just repeats of themselves. Here, I'll show you point by point why I advise against RS.

1. Sure its not bad in 3rd job but I recommend just using Combo Breaker. Its long ranged, it hits hard, easy 1HKO, and only requires 15 combo count. I found it MUCH better than RS. Using Breaker I can very quickly kill off the entire Aliens map much faster than RS.
2. This is a funded point. I know VERY few arans who can hit 528k per line on RS. For an average person (like 90% of the population) this means nothing.
3. Yes it does but how often are you dealing with large mob counts? It would typically be better to just spend the extra second, because that's all you need, and get the larger damage on the monsters using OSFB. Kind of iffy between the two in this point but I'd still rather use OSFB.
4. This is similar to your first point. It generally is better to use Combo Breaker or Fenrir to kill in 3rd job because its stronger and longer ranged. Those skills outdo RS in terms of killing rate. I've had people try to ks me in Aliens but failed because of Breaker/Fenrir.
5. Judgement doesn't take long at all to cast. Its actually pretty fast. It only takes a second while a full OSFBB takes 4 seconds so I don't know what you're talking about. Tempest on the other hand takes forever and half. Judgement doesn't.
6. Again, you're talking about damage cap. That only applies to the very few of the people who can hit it. Pointless to the vast majority.
7. Same thing as 6. My aran with a 30k range can only hit about 300k per line with it. I have an above average amount of %Str and a good bonus of +ATT from my equips off my Paladin/DS. I'm not close to hitting cap just yet. This only really applies to the well funded.
8. On low target counts, Judgement isn't good. That's just common sense. But when you're against 8-15 monsters it does great because you can rack up your combo in one maybe two OSFB. I tested this out in Azwan Hell Mode and I kill a lot faster using Judgement than just OSFB.
9. Wrong. Judgement spam is 40% stronger than OSFBB spam. Judgement can dish out 3930% per second while OSFBB can do about 2405% per second + defense ignore. I accounted for 55% critical, the 100% critical rates on FB and Beyonder, the DoT on Judgement, the hyper buffs to FB, skill cast times, and the 90% increase on Judgement from Tempest. Judgement easily won that. Only way OSFBB wins is if you can hit over the damage cap, which like I said earlier, the vast majority of people cannot do.
10. Once again I state this. Judgement is only good in large target counts such as Azwan, Stronghold, or glitched Lhc. RS isn't exactly the premier bossing skill either and if you just want a quick combo count, you'll just use Combo Recharge. Of course you're not always in a glitched Lhc map, and you don't Stronghold until 165 so I can understand the lack of use for Judgement then. But for Arans, Azwan is still a great source of solo exp since we do so well grinding there and you can Azwan any time you want. I personally did azwan ever since I maxed my main damage skills in 2nd job and would find that it's actually just as good if not better exp than the main training locations but then again, I'm a little bit funded.

Happy now?

[quote=Kazzooey]@pheonix23 There is very few benefits from RS being maxed. One of which you stated saying that its good if you can cap. But not very many people can cap so thats just stupid and you shouldn't just assume everyone will cap and tell them to max it. When making a guide make it for the average player, not for the godly funded.
As for an average player, the ONLY uses it has is bring mobs from behind you to the front and racking up a quick combo. Other than that, there is no real use for it for the AVERAGE player. Of course if you're max damage godly then by all means, go for it. And after the Hyper Skills get here, Beyonder will beat it out. I just don't see the point in maxing RS.

Judgement is great for DPM in large mobs such as Azwan. I notice I kill stuff much much faster while using Judgement. And it only takes 1 or maybe 2 full OSFB to build up for judgement in large target counts such as that. Azwan is great exp for arans since we do so well there. Judgement is fairly easy to max with funding. But remember you can't just assume everyone has big funding to do that. And Judgement spam is much stronger than OSFB with the skill maxed. Once again you're just assuming everyone has max damage.[/quote]

You ignored literally 90% of my post.

I listed ten reasons to max RS over Judgment. You picked the weakest one (though the strongest one for superfunded arans) and presented valid arguments against it. Yes. What about the other 9?

@BroomMS: You didn't max Hero's Will. And as I said above, hyper skills do NOT use the same type of SP.

...How many threads have to be made till the point that Rolling Spin > Judgment is clarified?
And it doesn't even matter much anymore for higher leveled Arans, you end up maxing everything anyways.

I have 41 SP left and i maxed everything...
Is that enough for the hyper skills or should I SP reset and redo all of my skills?
It'd be nice to know now before my SP reset expires~
Please let me know~ ^^

[quote=Kazzooey]@pheonix23 There is very few benefits from RS being maxed. One of which you stated saying that its good if you can cap. But not very many people can cap so thats just stupid and you shouldn't just assume everyone will cap and tell them to max it. When making a guide make it for the average player, not for the godly funded.
As for an average player, the ONLY uses it has is bring mobs from behind you to the front and racking up a quick combo. Other than that, there is no real use for it for the AVERAGE player. Of course if you're max damage godly then by all means, go for it. And after the Hyper Skills get here, Beyonder will beat it out. I just don't see the point in maxing RS.

Judgement is great for DPM in large mobs such as Azwan. I notice I kill stuff much much faster while using Judgement. And it only takes 1 or maybe 2 full OSFB to build up for judgement in large target counts such as that. Azwan is great exp for arans since we do so well there. Judgement is fairly easy to max with funding. But remember you can't just assume everyone has big funding to do that. And Judgement spam is much stronger than OSFB with the skill maxed. Once again you're just assuming everyone has max damage.[/quote]

If rolling spin has oh so few advantages, what advantages does judgement have? If you really want to see cap damage you can just go to an ice weak boss and use OSFB. It doesn't take much more funding to hit cap on the downward swing of OSFB as compared to judgement.

@pheonix23 There is very few benefits from RS being maxed. One of which you stated saying that its good if you can cap. But not very many people can cap so thats just stupid and you shouldn't just assume everyone will cap and tell them to max it. When making a guide make it for the average player, not for the godly funded.
As for an average player, the ONLY uses it has is bring mobs from behind you to the front and racking up a quick combo. Other than that, there is no real use for it for the AVERAGE player. Of course if you're max damage godly then by all means, go for it. And after the Hyper Skills get here, Beyonder will beat it out. I just don't see the point in maxing RS.

Judgement is great for DPM in large mobs such as Azwan. I notice I kill stuff much much faster while using Judgement. And it only takes 1 or maybe 2 full OSFB to build up for judgement in large target counts such as that. Azwan is great exp for arans since we do so well there. Judgement is fairly easy to max with funding. But remember you can't just assume everyone has big funding to do that. And Judgement spam is much stronger than OSFB with the skill maxed. Once again you're just assuming everyone has max damage.

[quote=shadowstrike]Yes, body pressure is almost completely useless. I rarely ever use it anymore. I'm not sure whether RS is as good as you make it seem. I tend to spam OSFB and use judgement only occasionally, for last hitting mobs when I'm gonna lose my combo anyways and stuff like that. I have always disliked RS so maybe that has something to do with it. [/quote]

We have this argument with you guys every time >.< Rolling spin is really good for mob control, as it can be used to bring monsters from behind you to in front of you. Not only that, but it also has a projected dps of almost twice OSFB/FT, with the optimal range. I know for a fact that without the use of rolling spin in dojo, there would be no way for me to get under 13 minutes. As you learn more and more about how Arans work, and how easy it is to hit cap with OSFB, you find new goals to strive for, like to cap with rolling spin.

[quote=xZephyrs]I'm not the fastest of levels from 120+ Nor do I have the cash for books, what I'd like to know is: is having only 3 in body pressure until 156/164 okay?[/quote]

Body pressure is good for 2 things:
1. It helps you increase your hits per second / damage per second against single targets like bosses
2. It helps you survive tanking touch damage, along with drain, especially at bosses.

If you don't boss a lot, you won't really miss Body Pressure.

Yes, body pressure is almost completely useless. I rarely ever use it anymore. I'm not sure whether RS is as good as you make it seem. I tend to spam OSFB and use judgement only occasionally, for last hitting mobs when I'm gonna lose my combo anyways and stuff like that. I have always disliked RS so maybe that has something to do with it.

[quote=xZephyrs]o-o Er, no one has yet to help me. I just got my sp reset for hot time, can someone tell me what to do before I waste it ?[/quote]

No one helped you?
You came into an SP guide thread and you're asking for an SP guide?

Try scrolling up. Make sure you read it all. You can max everything by 200.

About the extra SP, there have been rumors of a future 5th job at level 150.

[quote=Kazzooey]Why in the world would you not max Judgement? You hardly use Rolling Spin to train and its really only used on racking up quick combos. Judgement does humongous damage when maxed and is much more worthwhile than Rolling Spin. And after we get hypers, Judgement will be your best spammable skill. Judgement > Rolling Spin[/quote]

1. Rolling Spin is the best DPS skill in 3rd job.
2. Rolling Spin is the best DPS in 4th job if you hit 528k's on average, (for superfunded arans, not applicable to most arans).
3. Higher level rolling spin builds combos faster than lower level rolling spin because of the increased number of mobs it hits.
4. Rolling Spin is also useful for pushing/positioning mobs in front of you (multiple mini-knockbacks), defending a map against KSers, aggroing mobs behind you, training at non-party play maps (like ToT, PQs, events, it kills faster than FT depending on your range).
5. Judgment's humongous damage takes way too long to dish out (you can use 3 FTs in the time it takes for 1 Judgment for better damage.)
6. Judgment's humongous damage is hindered very easily by the damage cap.
7. Judgment's humongous damage means it can approach and hit the damage cap, even when it's unmaxed (so you don't gain extra damage by maxing it, if you have the slightest bit of funding).
8. Using Judgment means you lose your combo count. With the recent buffs to the combo bonuses, this is detrimental to your damage, and it takes too long to recover.
9. After we get hypers, you're still completely wrong. [b]OSFBB >> RS ~ OSFB ~ FT spam >> Judgment spam[/b]. Sorry, Judgment will still be useless then too.
10. Even if you WANTED to use combo unlimited, you can't get it until late 4th job, when you will have lots of leftover SP and you can easily max Judgment then. If you'd read the suggested build, you'd see that you'll max Judgment anyway, eventually. It simply doesn't have any viable use for training or bossing, so you're better putting your points into useful skills.

It's very simple. Rolling spin is useful in more ways than the one, whether or not you intend to make good use of all its applications.
Judgment is not only useless, it is in fact detrimental in nearly every case, whether or not you intend use it.

This has been debated in dozens of topics over the last few months, and every thread ends with the same conclusion. Judgment looks cool, but is ultimately a poor choice to use.
Have a look for these threads, I think there's even one or two on the first page of the forums.

[quote=Kazzooey]Why in the world would you not max Judgement? You hardly use Rolling Spin to train and its really only used on racking up quick combos. Judgement does humongous damage when maxed and is much more worthwhile than Rolling Spin. And after we get hypers, Judgement will be your best spammable skill. Judgement > Rolling Spin[/quote]

Judgment just kills your +30 Attack Combo boost unless you're in a giant mob. Rolling Spin is actually better DPS if you're capping on OSFB crits (Around 120k range or so).

Why in the world would you not max Judgement? You hardly use Rolling Spin to train and its really only used on racking up quick combos. Judgement does humongous damage when maxed and is much more worthwhile than Rolling Spin. And after we get hypers, Judgement will be your best spammable skill. Judgement > Rolling Spin

[quote=archersteven]Personally for fourth job I would do os, fb, ss for the initial 3 points. Then max freeze standing before maxing ss, hm, etc. I think this is more viable because when you're training at lhc starting at 110, it's very irritating to move up to attack, not to mention the fact that this movement lowers your damage output.[/quote]

Very interesting... max FS by 110 huh?

I suppose if you're still at aliens or RnJ from 100-110, SS damage doesn't really make a big difference. Won't help you kill aliens faster, if anything it would slow things down maybe if you felt compelled to use FT spam. One point in OS would allow anyone who doesn't quite kill aliens with a single RS would be able to kill them with one full OS.

Has anyone actually tried maxing FS much earlier? I was able to deal with knockback when I was a fresh 4th job at LHC, but that was long ago.
Plus between the levels of 110 and 113, before SS could be maxed, you're not really focused on DPS as much as running around, buffing your higher level party members.

The main argument against it is that you delay your damage buffs by 10 levels. However, as you said, FS can be regarded as a very strong damage buff (depending on your attack style and control). Additionally... FS would help you against Zak, and around level 110-130 you should really start thinking about zakking regularly.

The more I think about it the more I am convinced. It's extremely interesting.

I'd love to hear the thoughts of anyone else.

@Above: Don't feel offended. I am generally emotionless on internet forums.

@Phoenix23: Yeah, I didn't check. I should have but I decided not to because lazy.

@Phoenix23
Dude calm down, I'm not complaining.
I was just speaking my mind out loud.
jeez.. >.<

Personally for fourth job I would do os, fb, ss for the initial 3 points. Then max freeze standing before maxing ss, hm, etc. I think this is more viable because when you're training at lhc starting at 110, it's very irritating to move up to attack, not to mention the fact that this movement lowers your damage output.

@Jenny119: I have no idea why we have leftover SP. Nexon decided it's better to have too much than not enough, I guess! Don't complain
@Imaclubyou: Nope, did you happen to read the update notes?
@Roxxaine: Tempest requires 10 Judgment. Judgment requires 10 Fenrir. Fenrir requires 10 Smash.

Hyper skills are not out yet, they do not use regular SP, and please, if you have any questions about THIS SKILL BUILD and THIS CURRENT VERSION OF GMS post them here, otherwise, PM me or make a new topic or post in an existing topic that's about whatever you want to ask about (:

So no Hyper Skills yet? I needa send Nexon a ticket to get my account back so I can anticipate this.

I though Tempest needed 10 Fenrir only

[quote=Jenny119]I was wondering why we have extra Sp's.
I mean, aren't we supposed not to max everything and keep the rest for Hyper Skill?
How many Hyper Skill Aran are getting?[/quote]

SP for our regular skills aren't used for Hyper Skills.

We simply have left over SP. Kind of disorganized.

I was wondering why we have extra Sp's.
I mean, aren't we supposed not to max everything and keep the rest for Hyper Skill?
How many Hyper Skill Aran are getting?

[quote=Aeronomx]@phoenix23: Since you are level 200, did you go back and max all your skills with the left over sp's?[/quote]

Yes. I only have MW10, but I have 56 leftover SP after maxing everything else. With MW30 I would also have 36 leftover SP.

[quote=Aeronomx]@phoenix23: Since you are level 200, did you go back and max all your skills with the left over sp's?[/quote]

Yeah, mine's 200 with every skill maxed, every book passed, and 36 extra SP.

@phoenix23: Since you are level 200, did you go back and max all your skills with the left over sp's?

[quote=tankfreak152]what level does judgement need to be to use tempest? i messed up on my 2nd job stuff, but i'll leave points out of RS for now.[/quote]

Tempest still requires Judgment level 10.

[quote=Secun]10 in Fenrir required for Judgment.[/quote]

Did you read the build? Fenrir is maxed before any points are added to Judgment.

[quote=phoenix23]What else are you gonna do with your SP?

Also, did you forget Hero's Will or MW something?[/quote]

HOW do you get Hero's Will? O-O and also just max everything? EXCEPT MW,that is expensive,and i wanna get a Lionheart Paristan. ;-;

[quote=Awsomegamer99]ok i i almost maxed everything but i have like 41 SP left,
FS is 15
Judgment is 14
Booster is 19
max them too? o-o[/quote]

What else are you gonna do with your SP?

Also, did you forget Hero's Will or MW something?

ok i i almost maxed everything but i have like 41 SP left,
FS is 15
Judgment is 14
Booster is 19
max them too? o-o

[quote=OrionTempest]@phoenix23: Before I was able to put points into 4th on mine, I had:
Note: No +Skills, and I kept adding until it would let me put into the next job.

1st: Booster at 19, everything else maxed
2nd: Pressure at 0, Training at 4, everything else maxed
3rd: Judgment at 10, everything else maxed, 4 points left over.

So I have Body Pressure at 2, Judgment at 10, and everything else 1st-3rd Job maxed before it would let me add anything to 4th.

But yes, at 200, I had enough SP to max EVERYTHING, and have 36 points left over.[/quote]

Okay thanks.

I've updated the guide accordingly. (Had the updated version ready to go just in case).

@phoenix23: Before I was able to put points into 4th on mine, I had:
Note: No +Skills, and I kept adding until it would let me put into the next job.

1st: Booster at 19, everything else maxed
2nd: Pressure at 0, Training at 4, everything else maxed
3rd: Judgment at 10, everything else maxed, 4 points left over.

So I have Body Pressure at 2, Judgment at 10, and everything else 1st-3rd Job maxed before it would let me add anything to 4th.

But yes, at 200, I had enough SP to max EVERYTHING, and have 36 points left over.

[quote=phoenix23]How sure are you?
I have a saved build ready to replace this one if you're right.[/quote]

It's based on the other guides I've read. We'll see once Tempest comes around in 4 hours.

[quote=iVege]Pretty sure it means you get 4 instead of 1.[/quote]

How sure are you?
I have a saved build ready to replace this one if you're right.

[quote=Garming]So this time around we can pretty much max everything?[/quote]

Eventually, yes, just like most (if not all) classes.

Pretty sure it means you get 4 instead of 1.

So this time around we can pretty much max everything?